DP Heracross

Caelum

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Well, it's a set I've been using for a while and it works really well for me. Abusing Guts is always great too. It's been thrown around from time to time but lately I've started seeing them used, if only in small numbers. So I thought I mine as well just post it.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/heracross

[SET]
name: Bulk Up
move 1: Bulk Up
move 2: Megahorn
move 3: Rest
move 4: Sleep Talk
item: Leftovers
ability: Guts
nature: Adamant
evs: 252 HP / 104 SpD / 152 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Bulk Up Heracross is not as immediately threatening as the Sword Dance or Choice Band varieties, but in the proper hands can be a powerful sweeper that is difficult to stop. With the proper EV investment, Heracross's respectable base HP and Special Defense allow it to set up on quite a few popular special attackers in the metagame such as Gengar or defensive Zapdos (be careful with Pressure though!). The vulnerability of Heracross on the Defense side is patched up with Bulk Up while simultaneously raising Heracross's already impressive Attack to astronomical levels. Couple this with Rest, which activates Guts, and Heracross becomes quite a potent threat to any unprepared team.</p>

<p>One of the primary advantages of using a Bulk Up set as opposed to another more offensive set is that Heracross can now beat many of its counters and is more difficult to revenge kill. Should a defensive Gliscor switch into a Bulk Up, Heracross can then actually set up on Gliscor since after two Bulk Ups Gliscor's Aerial Ace only manages to do 43% - 52%, never a 2HKO with Leftovers. The standard 80 SpA EV Weezing will also never 2HKO Heracross with Fire Blast, allowing it to effectively set up on another of its so-called counters. Heracross also becomes much more difficult to revenge kill when using this set, due to the more defensive style. For example, Psychic from a Life Orb Deoxys-S will never OHKO, while Heracross easily does with Megahorn. A significant drawback to this Heracross is that you instantly lose to Heatran with it. To resolve this problem, pairing this with a Choice Scarf Dugtrio to remove the threat of Heatran entirely isn't a bad choice.</p>

<p>The given EVs are designed to give Heracross the best defensive capabilities possible while still outrunning Jolly Tyranitar. Switching to a Careful nature is also viable to allow Heracross to set up on an even wider range of Special Attackers, however, Adamant is usually the superior choice because of the greater attacking power. While not recommended, if a Fighting attack is more appealing Brick Break is usable over Megahorn. If using Brick Break, be sure to pair Heracross with a Pursuiter to eliminate Ghost types, who will wall you otherwise</p>
 
To be honest, I never saw the point of Bulk Up on this set. The guts boost is usually enough to cause damage and being able to hit Gengar is too important to me to pass up. I believe Stone Edge should be used over Bulk Up as a way to actually hit Gengar (as well as other flying-types such as Gyarados, Salamence, ect.)
 
That's scary, I said to IPL the other day that I was going to use this exact set =0!

Anyway:

Caelum said:
With the proper EV investment, Heracross's respectable base HP and Special Defense allow it to set up on quite a few popular special attackers in the metagame such as Gengar or defensive Zapdos.
Changed it around a bit for easier reading.

Caelum said:
Heracross also becomes much more difficult to revenge kill when using this set, due to the more defensive style.
Just added more detail about why it is harder to revenge kill.

It's a really good write-up, like, really, really good :P

I think it should be noted that Heracross should actually watch out for Zapdos. With only Megahorn as an attack, Pressure, Substitute and Roost can restore Zapdos while Heracross is asleep, while it can attack while Heracross is awake. Hiding behind a Substitute provides real good insurance for Zapdos, and Pressure can seriously do some damage should Heracross not have many boosts. However Heracross should win out, just the amount of Megahorn's left at the end could be vital.

Sorry, that was a bit rambled :\

KD24, Sleep Talk set much..?
 

Caelum

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@ Twash: I made those changes and I made a small note about Pressure since it has never been an issue. When Sleep Talk pics Megahorn or Bulk Up it doesn't decrease the PP of those two moves itself so that's probably why.

@ KD: Well, that would basically be the Sleep Talk set if I ran Stone Edge. Gengar isn't really an issue at all. A Timid Gengar's Life Orb Shadow Ball is never going to 2HKO Heracross so Heracross can just setup on it. Now, in the case of Salamence or Gyarados. You aren't going to be switching into them so you can just Bulk Up as they switch in. You are already up +1 Defense when they come in an start to Dragon Dance. You can always be one step ahead of the game and I usually come out on top of that battle. I'll admit it's not an ideal situation, but it's certainly won me battles when I was in a tight spot. I wouldn't really set up on DD Salamence since with Outrage it's iffy whether or not Heracross will beat it (depending if Sleep Talk works in your favor at the right times) but I'd certainly go for it with Gyarados if it switched in on a Bulk Up.
 

cim

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just posting to say that this threat is pretty monstrous and can really fuck up many teams that rely on a traditional response to Heracross. But doesn't heatran royally fuck this set up?
 
just posting to say that this threat is pretty monstrous and can really fuck up many teams that rely on a traditional response to Heracross. But doesn't heatran royally fuck this set up?
Skarmory too? Perhaps a fighting attack instead of bug.

Good EV spread though. I used it on some of the other sets, and it works pretty well.
 

cim

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A fighting attack is a bad idea on a mono attacker as immunities exist to it. This is the one fundamental rule of mono attacking
 

Havak

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There's always going to be something that will fuck up a mono attacker, you're best off just giving an example to get rid of that threat first. Eg. Use this with Scarf Dugtrio or even Magnezone to get rid of Heatran / Skarmory.
 
Or you could use a Pursuiter to get rid of the Ghost-types that are immune to Close Combat (the only problem is Spiritomb).
 

cim

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True, but with a Fighting attack, you CAN'T fuck up your counter killing or you lose, while with Megahorn you can at least try.

Plus you could use Magneone and Dugtrio with the Megahorn set for Skarmory / Heatran.
 

Caelum

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@ Chris: Oh yeah it's pretty cool. Heatran beats it easily, which is unfortunate. I actually pair this with Scarf Magnezone w/ HP Ground. Desperate? Yes. But it gets the job done. I'm quite glad that most people are too stupid to use Shed Shell on Skarmory.

@MetaNite: I don't see the point of using Close Combat, at all. Part of the advantage of this set is that you are gaining defensive abilities with Bulk Up. Close Combat lowers both Special Defense and Defense, so what's the point of even using Bulk Up? You mine as well just use Sword Dance and go for it. I guess Brick Break is usable, but I already mentioned that in Set Comments. Yeah, Skarmory walls it and just Whirlwind's you out, but so what? That's true of quite a few sets, it doesn't make them worthless.

@Umbarsc: I'm going to mention in set comments that if you opt for Brick Break, a Pursuit user should accompany it.

Edit: Oh, I didn't mention Brick Break in set comments. I thought I did.

Edit 2: I was just wondering if anyone had a different EV spread they would like to throw out.
 
To be honest, most Heatrans, in fact basically all Heatrans in this new Platinum metagame, will have a speed beneficial nature, so Magnezone won't outspeed Naive/Hasty Scarf Tran at all (even with Zone scarfed), which is the most standard set now many people use to take down Skymin (individually). It does have its advantages over non Vacume Wave/Scarfed Lucario who also take x4 resistant Megahorn, or hell even non Scarfed Trans. Yeah as mentioned, pairing Scarf Dugtrio with this Hera can prove pretty deadly in the long run.

A pretty cool concept improving Heracross' defensive capabilities, and the set should be called Crocross ^_^
 

Caelum

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Well, I obviously don't bring Magnezone in on Fire Blast >_<. You lure it into using HP Ice or Electric or something else (assuming we are even talking Scarf Heatran) and then kill it. I've never had a problem with Heatran when using Scarf Magnezone. But anyway, that's not the point. The real question is, why would I call it CroCross? I'd prefer CaelCross (I have to point out I'm kidding since someone won't get it).
 
Did I say switch into Fire Blast... pff no. What I meant was Scarftrans coming into Zone (free switchin) and outspeeding and KOing, but yeah I see the point of the whole lure game.

(I have to point out I'm kidding since someone won't get it).
Ditto.
 

Metric

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I must say I like the set, I'll have to try it sometime.

Minor nitpicks;

<p>The given EVs are designed to give Heracross the best defensive capabilities possible while still outrunning Jolly Tyranitar. Switching to a Careful nature is also viable to allow Heracross to set up on an even wider range of Special Attackers, however, Adamant is usually the superior choice because of the greater attacking power. While not recommended, if a Fighting attack is more appealing, Brick Break is usable over Megahorn. If using Brick Break, be sure to pair Heracross with a Pursuiter to eliminate Ghost types, who will wall you otherwise.</p>
Omitted the two stills, comma after appealing. And changed "should you choose to go down this route" to specify exactly which set requires a pursuiter and why.
 

Aldaron

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Difference is that with Pressure, Crocune beats Vappy anyway, and the other Water Absorb Pokemon are UU Pokemon, like Quagsire and Mantine.

A mono Fighting attack Pokemon has no way to beat the common threats that are immune to it. Gengar, Mismagius, Spiritomb and Dusknoir all beat you everytime, and all are high BL + at least.
 

Caelum

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I made Metric's changes and I think the option of a fighting move is fine where it is, in set comments. Water Absorb is a special ability, one only really found on Vaporeon in OU. It's not an entire typing of Pokemon that walls a mono-attacking water set. That's the difference.

Anyway, other comments?
 

cim

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Not to mention in that special case Suicune can outstall Vaporeon by Resting without Sleep Talking and using Pressure...

Oh Aldaron said this already.

I don't even think Brick Break is even worth a mention at all.
 

Caelum

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I personally agree Chris but I think most people will want it mentioned in Set Comments. I'll wait to hear responses though.
 

Sapientia

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Megahorn is almost always superior, so why should you mention brick break?
Perhaps say it should be played with (scarfed) dugtrio, because heatran is everywhere at the moment
 

Caelum

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meh, I could throw something in about Scarf Dugtrio but I hate recommending specific team combinations. This is perfectly workable with something else to take out Heatran, specifically Scarf Heatran, and I don't like to be restrictive. Use a lure like Celebi and hit it with Earth Power or something. That's just one example.
 

cim

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I don't see why not to say that it works best with a Scarf Dugrio. It IS the best way to guarantee Heatran dies, even if you start recommending a good chunk of a team. After all, it can only help people, right?
 

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