DP Huntail

Havak

I'm the Best. You're a Towel.
is a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
J7r requested a new Huntail page be written after it was decided the current one was rather poor, so I went ahead and wrote one.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/huntail



[SET]
name: Rain Dance
move 1: Rain Dance
move 2: Waterfall
move 3: Ice Fang
move 4: Return / Crunch
item: Damp Rock / Life Orb
nature: Adamant
evs: 6 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Huntail is one of the few viable users of Swift Swim that utilizes physical attacks, but it’s still generally outclassed by Kingdra, Floatzel, and even Kabutops. However, this can work quite well in the lower tiers and Huntail does have a few things that Kabutops lacks, namely Ice Fang (and Crunch), as well as fewer weaknesses to go with its defenses (which are very similar to Kabutops’).</p>

<p>This set is just your general Rain Dance abuser, setting up Rain Dance to double your Speed and increase the power of your Water-type attacks. Waterfall is preferred over Aqua Tail for the accuracy and flinch chance thanks to your high Speed in the rain. Ice Fang will cover Grass-types, while Return or Crunch is for other Water-types (though Return is preferred as the Water and Normal-type combo is resisted by few, and Huntail is unlikely to face anything that does resist this combo). The choice of item depends on whether you’d like to do more damage per turn (and boost your other attacks) with Life Orb (if you don’t mind the recoil damage), or keep the Rain in play for eight turns thanks to Damp Rock. Huntail should have max Attack and Speed to benefit sweeping.</p>

[SET]
name: Choice Band
move 1: Aqua Tail / Waterfall
move 2: Ice Fang
move 3: Return / Body Slam
move 4: Crunch
item: Choice Band
nature: Adamant
evs: 6 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Huntail has just enough usable physical attacks to muster a Choice Band set, and with 104 base Attack Huntail can hit quite hard in the lower tiers. Aqua Tail is now a more usable choice due to the higher base power, as the flinch chance is now less likely from Waterfall with the lacklustre Speed stat. If accuracy is your main worry, Waterfall is still a brilliant choice. Return is more powerful than Body Slam, but the paralysis chance Body Slam offers can help with Huntail's low Speed. Ice Fang and Crunch are Huntail's only other physical attacks worth using, as their added effects can often come in handy.</p>

[SET]
name: Mixed Rain Dance
move 1: Rain Dance
move 2: Waterfall / Aqua Tail
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Hidden Power Grass / Hidden Power Electric
item: Life Orb
nature: Rash
evs: 88 Atk / 168 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Given that Huntail is one of the few viable physical Swift Swimmers most sets will eschew its decent base 94 Special Attack in favor of its superior Attack. That said, by only utilizing physical moves Huntail can be walled by many defensive Pokemon, particularly bulky Water and Grass-types. This problem can be solved by making use of its Special Attack and special move-pool alongside of its physical attacking capabilities. By using a mixed set it becomes possible for Huntail to cripple some of its common counters, such as Leafeon or Quagsire, while still hitting reasonably hard on the physical side with Waterfall.</p>

<p>As with the previous set, Rain Dance will be the main option to increase Huntail's Speed and power up its STAB Waterfall. Ice Beam is used to take out bulky Grass-types who often concentrate on Defense rather then Special Defense. Examples being Leafeon and Meganium who are OHKO'd and 2HKO'd respectively, by Ice Beam. The final slot is to take out opposing Water-types who would normally wall Huntail entirely. Hidden Power Grass is the preferred option since it allows you to take on Quagsire, Gastrodon, and Lanturn but if Mantine and Pelipper are more concerning Hidden Power Electric is also viable.</p>

[Other Options]
<p>Huntail does learn Baton Pass, but sadly can only pass on a Substitute or Defense boosts with Barrier or Iron Defense. Toxic and Confuse Ray are the only usable options in terms of status attacks. Screech is useful to lower Defense to hit harder or force switches, and Huntail learns Aqua Ring if you’d like to be able to increase your HP each turn. Huntail does have a decent Special Attack stat, so special moves such as Surf, Hydro Pump, Ice Beam and Blizzard are options for suprises. But generally, too many other users of the Rain Dance and Swift Swim combination hit harder with special attacks.</p>

[EVs]
<p>Max Attack and Speed is the way to go for the pure physical sets, with an Adamant nature. If you want to go for a more bulky set, using HP and Defense EVs can work as well, but it’s still advised you try and keep the Attack EVs and boosting nature in order to do damage. A Jolly nature can also work if you want to outspeed the base 60 Speed group without a boosting nature.</p>

<p>For the mixed set, the EVs are more of a general guideline then a rigidly constructed spread. The spread is designed to OHKO or 2HKO most of Huntail's common counters, but it can be easily manipulated to satisfy your particular needs. Generally speaking, the set performs best when it has roughly equal Attack and Special Attack with a slight emphasis on Special Attack.</p>

[Opinion]
<p>Huntail is quite effective in the lower tiers, thanks to its decent attack. The high Defense is also welcome, even if Huntail doesn’t usually benefit from that the majority of the time. Sadly, it’s outclassed by almost every other physical based Water-type, but if used correctly in lower tiers it can be deadly.</p>

[Counters]
<p>For the physical sets, a lot of Water-types can take Huntail's attacks, providing they have good enough Defense to withstand a few Returns. Quagsire, Lapras, Poliwrath and Politoed have Water Absorb so are immune to Waterfall and Aqua Tail. They also have decent HP and Defense to withstand Huntail’s other attacks. Blastoise, Cloyster, Pelipper and Phione are some other good counters, all with rather high Defense, but may need Hidden Power Electric or Grass to threaten Huntail. Lanturn has high HP to help take resisted Water-type moves, and can KO with Thunderbolt. Grass-types with high Defenses like Leafeon, Meganium and Vileplume shouldn't have much trouble taking attacks from Huntail and KOing with STAB Grass moves.</p>

<p>For the mixed set, things become a little more difficult since most usual counters can be defeated with relative ease. Clefable has a good chance of surviving two hits as Huntail will have to strike with pretty much maximum damage twice in a row with Rain Dance active to 2HKO, while Clefable can do good damage back with Thunderbolt. Huntail can't rely on residual damage from Stealth Rock or Spikes to deal with Clefable either. Lanturn, Blastoise and Poliwrath all make quite good counters still, though Blastoise may struggle to do worthy damage back. Pelipper and Mantine should easily wall Huntail if it lacks Hidden Power Electric. Venusaur and Weezing make good counters, but there is a chance they will be 2HKO'd if switched into Ice Beam while Stealth Rock is in play.</p>

<p>Shedinja will also wall any Huntail that isn't using Crunch.</p>
 
benefit fro
Missed an "m" after "o".

Huntails attacks
"Huntail's" > "Huntails" since you're denoting ownership.

withstand a few Returns’.
Missing a "to" before "withstand" and the apostrophe after "Returns" should be removed.

Screech is useful to lower Denfese
Small typo here.

can help with Huntails low Speed
Huntails only other physical attacks
"Huntail's"

though their added effects can often come in handy.
I personally prefer "as" over "though" but really minor nitpick sorry...

Thanks have a nice day ^^.
 

Caelum

qibz official stalker
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Looking at the counters section I noticed that most of them could be better (or easily) dealt with if it went mixed (read: HP Grass). It does have a respectable base 94 special attack which isn't bad in UU at all. That lead me to think that a mixed set could be viable, more so then the other options gives it credit for. Given me a day or so to try something out before loading this on to SCMS if you could, unless you can testify that it is ineffective then I won't bother.
 

jrrrrrrr

wubwubwub
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
A mixed set could actually work with Huntail, it would prevent Quagsire and Poliwrath from utterly walling you. Water Absorbers and sturdy Grass-types like Meganium can come in on both of these sets and not really be threatened. Poliwrath resists every move on both sets except the filler Normal one, Quagsire can easily come in, etc. A mixed set with HP Grass, Ice Beam, Surf and Rain Dance (or something else...maybe even Waterfall?) sounds like it could work with Life Orb/Specs. 94 base SpAtk is not bad, especially in UU where Rain teams are very, very hard to beat.

Otherwise, great work Havak....even if this has a few kinks to work out, it's already leaps and bounds over the current analysis.
 

Havak

I'm the Best. You're a Towel.
is a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Go for it Caelum, you're free to write the set comments as well if you so wish.

I'll probably need to rework EVs, Other Options and Counters a little bit if this works, though. (If you can't 2HKO these counters and still do impressive physical damage, then it's probably not worth it).
 

Caelum

qibz official stalker
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
So, I've been playing around with it and it seems to be working pretty well so far. It's really messed up a lot of teams that I've used it against and, if you are running a rain team (which this is obviously used on) it really helped open up a sweep for Kabutops by luring in stuff like Leafeon and taking it out. I've worked out an EV spread for this mixed set and it does defeat all of it's "counters" by using HP Grass (or HP Electric in a few cases like Pelipper) & Ice Beam (surprised how much more stuff like Meganium & Venusaur takes even when compared to Life Orb Ice Fang :/). I'll play test it a little more and post some calcs and then I'll write something up tomorrow. I just wanted to know if anyone had anything specific they wanted me to run calcs against since I'm still toying with the EV spread?
 

Havak

I'm the Best. You're a Towel.
is a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
I think Waterfall is the better choice generally, the average power isn't really much different and the flinch chance Waterfall provides can be very helpful, you're also not going to miss so I'd imagine less games will be lost if you use Waterfall, on average.

If it's been working well though, you should just go with whatever has work, though I'm assuming something like:

~ Rain Dance
~ Waterfall / Aqua Tail
~ Ice Beam
~ Hidden Power Grass / Hidden Power Electric

Will be the finished set. Though mentioned Surf, Hydro Pump and Blizzard in other options would be good, or even over Rain Dance and mention using this on a RD team or something.
 

Caelum

qibz official stalker
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
name: Mixed Rain Dance
move 1: Rain Dance
move 2: Waterfall / Aqua Tail
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Hidden Power Grass / Hidden Power Electric
item: Life Orb
nature: Rash
evs: 88 Atk / 168 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Given that Huntail is one of the few viable physical Swift Swimmers most sets will eschew his decent base 94 Special Attack in favor of his superior Attack. That said, by only utilizing physical moves Huntail can be walled by many defensive Pokemon, particularly bulky Water and Grass types. This problem can be solve by making use of its Special Attack and special move pool alongside of its physical attacking capabilities. By using a mixed set it becomes possible for Huntail to cripple some of its common counters, such as Leafeon or Quagsire, while still hitting reasonably hard on the physical side with Waterfall.</p>

<p>As with the previous set, Rain Dance will be main option to increase Huntail's Speed and power up its STAB Waterfall. Ice Beam is used to take out bulky Grass types who often concentrate on Defense rather then Special Defense. Examples being Leafeon and Meganium who are OHKO'd and 2HKO'd, respectively, by Ice Beam. The final slot is to take out opposing Water types who normally would wall Huntail entirely. Hidden Power Grass is the preferred option since it allows you to take on Quagsire, Gastrodon, and Lanturn but if Mantine and Pelipper are more concerning Hidden Power Electric is also viable.</p>

Here is something for your EV section if you want to use it:

<p>For the mixed set, the EVs are more of a general guideline then a rigidly constructed spread. The spread is designed to OHKO or 2HKO most of it's common counters but it can be easily manipulated to satisfy your particular needs. Generally speaking, the set performs best when it has roughly equal Attack and Special Attack with a slight emphasis on Special Attack.</p>

So, this set has actually worked really well. Feel free to try it for yourself (or take my word for it :p) but it works very well in my experience. I played around with a lot of different spreads and that one seemed to work best. These aren't all the calcs I ran (since I doubt you want them all) but I pulled some of them out.

Code:
Stats Generated: 265 Atk / 291 SpA / 203 Spe 

Waterfall (w/ Rain boost assumed): 
Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 56 Def Calm Hypno: 62% - 73% 
Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Timid Grumpig: 73% - 86% 
Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Calm Flareon: 170% - 201% 
Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Careful Muk: 52% - 61%
Waterall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Impish Steelix: 52% - 62%
Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Calm Probopass: 83% - 98%
Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 242 Def Bold Clefable: 46% - 54%
Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Bold Rotom: 52% - 62% 
Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Jolly Persian: 104% - 123% 


Ice Beam:

Ice Beam vs. 216 HP / 0 SpD Bold Meganium: 61% - 73% 
Ice Beam vs. 132 HP/ 0 SpD Jolly Leafeon: 101% - 120% 
Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Calm Venusaur: 43% - 51% 
Ice Beam vs. 244 HP / 128 SpD Calm Vileplume: 54% - 64%
Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Bold Weezing: 43% - 51% (2HKO w/ SR & Leftovers on average)

HP Grass (or HP Electric if damage diff.):

HP Grass vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Timid Golduck: 64% - 76%  
HP Grass vs. 40 HP / 252 SpD Calm Lanturn: 33% - 40% 
HP Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Relaxed Quagsire: 116% - 138% 
HP Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Poliwrath: 46% - 54% (2HKO w/ SR & Leftovers on average)
HP Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Bold Blastoise: 43% - 50% (possible 2HKO, w/ SR & Leftovers)
HP Grass vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Bold Cloyster: 66% - 78% (possible OHKO w/ SR)
HP Grass vs. 4 Def / 0 SpD Modest Omastar: 153% - 182%
HP Grass vs 252 HP/ 0 SpD Modest Phione: 53% - 63% 
HP Grass vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Bold Pelipper: 33% - 40% 
HP Electric vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Bold Pelipper: 135% - 160% 
HP Grass vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Calm Mantine: 20% - 24% 
HP Electric vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Calm Mantine: 81% - 97%.
 

Havak

I'm the Best. You're a Towel.
is a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Wow, thanks Caelum.

I added that set, with your comments and also your addition to the EVs section and removed a section of mine that was now irrelevant.

I also fixed some grammar issues with yours, but they were minor.

I've also updated the counters section, so tell me what you think.

I'll leave this option for discussion for another day or two, then I think it'll be ready to be uploaded.
 

jrrrrrrr

wubwubwub
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Surf and Hydro Pump really deserve a mention in the set comments for the mixed attacker, or maybe even in Other Options.

Other than that, it looks like a huge step up from the current analysis.
 

Caelum

qibz official stalker
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
I actually tested Hydro Pump / Surf in over Waterfall and I found the set less effective simply because you can't beat special walls like Hypno & Grumpig. Obviously a full out special set is usable but then it seems it's just an inferior Gorebyss. I'd say comment on it in Other Options personally.

Edit: And you're welcome Havak. You are doing great with these UU peer edits so anything I can do to help :)
 

Havak

I'm the Best. You're a Towel.
is a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Surf / Hydro Pump and even Blizzard are all in other options, so it should be okay.

Though, Caelum, I think Jrrrrrrr meant Surf / Hydro Pump > Rain Dance and mention setting up Rain Dance with another team member.

But anyway, I think this is fine as it is now. I'll let people have a few more looks over just to make sure, but I'll upload it to the SCMS tomorrow.
 

Havak

I'm the Best. You're a Towel.
is a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Actually, I completely overlooked the fact that Shedinja had been moved down (because I haven't even seen one lol) so I'll add that to the counters section providing Huntail lacks Crunch.
 

Great Sage

Banned deucer.
Change all the masculine pronouns to neuter pronouns to maintain gender consistency; they're primarily in the mixed sweeper's set comments.
 

Caelum

qibz official stalker
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Ah, or some odd reason I thought Huntail was the male evolution of Clamperl and Gorebyss was the female one :/. Sorry about that, thanks GS.

Anyway, I thought maybe Lapras should be thrown in on counters. Other then that I think it's good.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top