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DP Research Thread #5 (Newest yet)

Discussion in 'Stark Mountain' started by david stone, Jan 18, 2009.

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  1. david stone

    david stone Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming.
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    Hello, and welcome to the newest (and possibly final) DPP research thread! We need your help testing this stuff out, so don't be intimidated. Many of the things still in this thread will take about a minute to test. Even the stuff that requires a lot of testing can still be accomplished by a couple of guys testing while they wait for their pizza rolls to finish in the toaster! A few people submitting trials of 15 or so hits at a time can really add up. If you are unsure of how to test something, don't hesitate to ask. It's a lot better to ask how to test something than to spend an hour setting up an elaborate test only to find out that your results are inconclusive.

    However, that doesn't mean you just post anything here. Questions about breeding chains and the like belong in the "Ask a Simple Question" thread. This thread is reserved for questions about game mechanics.

    You must test this in-game. Testing on Shoddy is completely irrelevant. Future posters who attempt to justify a test with Shoddy results will be infracted.

    Here's a link to the old threads, in case you want to double-check something that was posted there, since I didn't copy over how they proved anything, just the findings.

    DP Research Thread #4 ("Newer still")
    DP Research Thread #3 ("Newer")
    DP Research Thread #2 ("New")
    DP Research Thread #1 ("Old")



    DP Resource Thread: has valuable information for testing, such as the damage formula.


    Abilities
    Items
    Moves




    General Mechanics

    (this must be tested in Wi-Fi / link battle, as the Battle Tower has different mechanics for this sort of thing)

    End-of-turn-effects with multiple rounds of fainting:

    Graviton: Metagross uses Explosion, both Pokemon faint
    Graviton: Both people try to send in, say, Shedinja
    Graviton: And boht sides have SR down
    Graviton: Do both sides then pick a new Pokemon?
    Colin: Actually I asked something like this before
    Colin: And I remember what the verdict was
    Colin: the turn proceeds as normal, with end of turn effects taking place with no pokemon out
    Colin: (so reflect can still fade)
    Colin: then they both choose

    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1634036&postcount=453

    I'm going to need some time to consider all of this.

    Freeze: What is the defrost chance?

    In other words, the defrost rate is probably somewhere between 20% and 25%, possibly at 60/256 (the GSC defrost rate, according to X-Act). However, Chrisisme makes the case for 60/255: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1183344&postcount=178
  2. david stone

    david stone Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming.
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    Abilities

    http://www.smogon.com/dp/abilities/

    Check this page for what we currently know first.

    Early Bird: How does Early Bird work if a Pokemon is sleeping, and then gains Early Bird? My guess is that it divides the remaining turns by 2 and rounds down. My next question, then, is what happens if a sleeping Pokemon loses Early Bird? Is the remaining time multiplied by 2?

    Wonder Guard: Do any moves, aside from Fire Fang and the typeless moves (Beat Up, Doom Desire, Future Sight, and Struggle), always hit through Wonder Guard? Trace Gardevoir / Porygon2 would likely be the best way to test this for moves that are super-effective on Shedinja (or are Normal / Fighting).

    Can Counter, Mirror Coat, Metal Burst, Sheer Cold, Fissure, or any other non-regular damage move hit through Wonder Guard if the type would render it super-effective?
  3. david stone

    david stone Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming.
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    Items

    http://www.smogon.com/dp/items/

    Go here first for most of the item information.

    King's Rock: What moves aren't given a chance to flinch? Is it all moves that can already flinch or all moves with a secondary effect (or something else?)? Do multi-hit moves like Icicle Spear and Fury Swipes have multiple chances to activate? Beat Up and Triple Kick do.

  4. david stone

    david stone Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming.
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    Moves

    http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/

    Check here first.

    Gravity: The issue of how Gravity raises your effective accuracy is still unknown. How I would test it is by using Double Team once under Gravity. If it's actually -2 evasion for all, moves would have 4/3 their normal accuracy, but if it's * 5/3 accuracy, moves would have 3/4 * 5/3 = 5/4 their normal accuracy, meaning a 75% accurate move (Sleep Powder without CompoundEyes) would have 100% accuracy for -2 evasion, but 93.75% accuracy (possibly rounded to 93%) for * 5/3, as I suspect it is. If you ever miss Sleep Powder, it's not a -2 evasion stage change. What is known that it is not a +2 accuracy alteration, meaning it affects evasion or it is * 5/3 accuracy. The only difference between the two (* 5/3 accuracy or * 3/5 evasion) is possible rounding issues, but I don't think there is enough information on how accuracy works to determine that.

    Mimic: What can't it select?

    Pursuit: Does Pursuit against a faster U-Turner still have a chance to hurt itself in its confusion (assuming the Pursuiter is Confused, of course)?

    Rage:
  5. TheMaskedNitpicker

    TheMaskedNitpicker Triple Threat
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    http://upokecenter.com/games/dp/guides/timing.html

    This page has a complete accuracy check formula. I can't vouch for its accuracy, but if we're trying to figure out the formula, it's probably the best place to start.

    If it turns out to be accurate, it's interesting to note how accuracy and evasion levels are added together before being applied.
  6. lati0s

    lati0s

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    Has it been tested whether 2 and 3 turn outrages (and thrashes/petal dances) occur with equal probability?

    It seems like they should, but its never good to assume things
  7. TheMaskedNitpicker

    TheMaskedNitpicker Triple Threat
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    As far as I understand it, when a Pokémon is put to sleep with a move other than Rest, it gets a sleep counter that starts at a random number between 2 and 5. Right before the Pokémon's turn, the counter is decrased by 1. If the counter is then less than or equal to 0, the Pokémon wakes up and takes its action. As far as I always understood it, if the Pokémon has the Early Bird ability when its turn comes up, the counter gets decreased by 2 instead of 1. I don't think the counter gets divided or multiplied by 2 at any point.

    This requires some testing to confirm, but it is to my mind the most likely mechanic.
  8. david stone

    david stone Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming.
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    Sleep was shortened to 1-4 turns in DP, but yes, that does seem to be the most likely mechanic.
  9. AJC

    AJC

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    Could someone see how frequent the triggering of the "acid/killer rain" glitch happens?
  10. twash

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    If I remember correctly, RB Golbat started this list? Unless there are any objections, I will dig up the list and continue with it within the near future.
  11. RBG

    RBG It feels like a perfect night to dress up like hipsters
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  12. TheMaskedNitpicker

    TheMaskedNitpicker Triple Threat
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    I didn't say a Pokémon actually sleeps from 2-5 turns. I said the counter starts between 2 and 5. Notice that the counter is decremented right before the game checks to see if the Pokémon should wake. Hence, if the counter started at 1, the Pokémon wouldn't miss a turn due to sleep.
  13. david stone

    david stone Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming.
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    Ah, that makes sense. That explains how Early Bird Pokemon can sleep for 0 turns.
  14. TheMaskedNitpicker

    TheMaskedNitpicker Triple Threat
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    Do you have any idea the kind of sample size we'd need to state with even 95% confidence whether the rate is 60/256 or 60/255? Sadly, I find I don't remember enough math to tell you but suffice it to say that it's large enough that I don't care to test it. I'll continue to test the rest of the things on these lists.
  15. david stone

    david stone Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming.
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    lol yeah, the difference between the two is
    23.5294118%
    23.4375%

    Put another way, compared to the 256 thaw rate, the 255 thaw rate will occur .3921569% more often. That's more of a question for someone who can access the game's data directly and manages to find where this is stored.
  16. TheMaskedNitpicker

    TheMaskedNitpicker Triple Threat
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    The questions about Early Bird reminded me of something. The Smogon Status Guide (and prevailing wisdom) maintain that confusion has no set counter, but rather a Pokémon has a set chance to be freed from confusion with each action it takes. In this way, it is like the 'frozen' status ailment.

    I've seen a lot of confused Pokémon and I could not for the life of me ever remember a Pokémon immediately snapping out of confusion (spending 0 turns confused). Nor could I ever recall confusion lasting longer than 4 turns. Not wanting to rely on my memory (especially about the 4-turns bit), I ran some simple tests. I battled the two Pachirisu on Route 104 with my Staraptor and Spiritomb. The Spiritomb used Confuse Ray on the Staraptor whenever necessary and the Staraptor used Foresight on the second Pachirisu after KOing the first one. I confused the Staraptor 24 times. My results were as follows:

    0 turns confused: 0 occurrences
    1 turn confused: 8 occurrences
    2 turns confused: 3 occurrences
    3 turns confused: 7 occurrences
    4 turns confused: 6 occurrences
    >4 turns confused: 0 occurrences

    Just for comparison's sake, here are what the approximate average results should be using the prevailing theory:

    0 turns confused: 6.0 occurrences
    1 turn confused: 4.5 occurrences
    2 turns confused: 3.4 occurrences
    3 turns confused: 2.5 occurrences
    4 turns confused: 1.9 occurrences
    >4 turns confused: 5.7 occurrences

    Just to give you an idea about how unlikely the current theory is to be true, the chance of the Staraptor always spending at least one turn confused in 24 trials is 0.75^24, or 0.00100, or about 1 in 1,000.

    The chance of the Staraptor never spending more than 4 turns confused in 24 trials is (1 – (0.75^5))^24, or 0.00150, or about 1 in 667. In fact, if you take the first turn of confusion as a given, the chance of never spending more than 4 turns confused drops to 1 in 9222.

    So, yeah, I don't know where we got our current idea about this mechanic, but it's wrong. I think it's far more likely that confusion lasts 1-4 turns, just like sleep.

    EDIT: Ah, looking at the Shoddy code, it appears that confusion already has a turn-decrementing implementation. This leads me to believe that the results of my tests are already known. In that case, we just need to update the site's Status Guide.
  17. MagicMaster87

    MagicMaster87

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    Not really anything big, but I tested the Rage + Substitute glitch myself since you had asked for someone else to confirm it. I used a female Beedrill for my testing, with Pursuit and Twin-Needle as its other two moves.

    The battle went like this:

    So it appears that there truly is a glitch with Rage and Substitue + other moves, and it's not limited to just Kangaskhan.

    I wish I could've provided more information, but unfortunately I have no WiFi access here, nor a second DS and game. ;_;
  18. AJC

    AJC

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    one for the "acid rain glitch"

    how does fire and water moves behave under the hail version of the glitch are they boosted reduced or not changed at all?

    what is thunder and blizzard acc during this glitchy weather?

    does solar beam need to charge or does it instantly fire?

    are all the related weather traits triggered in this form of the glitch?
  19. poccil

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    TheMaskedNitpicker: The effect of Early Bird that you describe is correct, at least in the Advance generation. I word that ability accordingly: "The sleep count declines by 2 instead of 1 in bearer's sleep checks." A wiki site in Japanese, linked from pokemon-master.com, mentions details on how confusion works now: During each of a Pokemon's turns, there is a 50 percent chance that the Pokemon will deal confusion damage to itself; and a 25 percent chance that the confusion effect ends.
  20. TheMaskedNitpicker

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    Hmm... Well, I suppose that might be one of the sources of our erroneous understanding of how confusion is supposed to work now. I think I showed pretty conclusively that that can't be the actual mechanic.
  21. twash

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    Wonderguard test.

    Just posting the list so far. If anybody wants to help, you can use the Trace Gardevoir / Porygon2 with two DS, or you can use a Spiritomb with Wonderguard, and go to the south of Floroma and battle the twins, and just attack your own Spiritomb. If using the latter, do not test Fighting, Psychic, or Normal-type moves on it. If you have any results, PM them to me, thanks. :toast:

    List so far:
    Code:
    Absorb
    Acid
    Aerial Ace - Mew on Spiritomb [B]NO[/B]
    Aeroblast
    Air Cutter
    Air Slash
    AncientPower
    Aqua Jet
    Aqua Tail
    Arm Thrust
    Assurance
    Astonish
    Attack Order
    Aura Sphere - Palkia on Gardevoir [B]NO[/B]
    Aurora Beam - Octillery on Porygon2 [B]NO[/B]
    Avalanche - Mew on Spiritomb [B]NO[/B]
    Barrage
    Beat Up - Already known [B]YES[/B]
    Bide
    Bind
    Bite
    Blast Burn
    Blaze Kick
    Blizzard
    Body Slam
    Bone Club
    Bone Rush
    Bonemerang
    Bounce
    Brave Bird
    Brick Break
    Brine - Mew on Spiritomb [B]NO[/B]
    Bubble
    BubbleBeam
    Bug Bite
    Bug Buzz
    Bullet Punch
    Bullet Seed - Mew on Spiritomb [B]NO[/B]
    Charge Beam - Mew on Spiritomb [B]NO[/B]
    Chatter
    Clamp
    Close Combat
    Comet Punch
    Confusion
    Counter
    Covet
    Crabhammer
    Cross Chop
    Cross Poison
    Crunch
    Crush Claw
    Crush Grip
    Cut
    Dark Pulse – Mew on Spiritomb [B]NO[/B]
    Dig - Mew on Spiritomb [B]NO[/B]
    Discharge
    Dive
    Dizzy Punch
    Doom Desire – Already known [B]YES[/B]
    Double Hit
    Double Kick
    Double-Edge
    DoubleSlap
    Draco Meteor - Salamence on Porygon2 [B]NO[/B]
    Dragon Claw - Groudon on Porygon2 [B]NO[/B]
    Dragon Pulse - Mew on Spiritomb [B]NO[/B]
    Dragon Rage
    Dragon Rush
    DragonBreath
    Drain Punch
    Dream Eater
    Drill Peck
    DynamicPunch
    Earth Power - Palkia on Porygon2 [B]NO[/B]
    Earthquake - Groudon on Porygon2 [B]NO[/B]
    Egg Bomb
    Ember
    Endeavor
    Energy Ball - Mew on Spiritomb [B]NO[/B]
    Eruption
    Explosion - Metagross on Porygon2 [B]NO[/B]
    Extrasensory
    ExtremeSpeed - Rayquaza on Porygon2 [B]NO[/B]
    Façade
    Faint Attack
    Fake Out
    False Swipe
    Feint
    Fire Blast - Salamence on Porygon2 [B]NO[/B]
    Fire Fang – Already known [B]YES[/B]
    Fire Punch - Groudon on Porygon2 [B]NO[/B]
    Fire Spin
    Fissure
    Flail
    Flame Wheel
    Flamethrower - Mew on Spiritomb [B]NO[/B]
    Flare Blitz
    Flash Can[B]NO[/B]n - Mew on Spiritomb [B]NO[/B]
    Fling
    Fly
    Focus Blast
    Focus Punch
    Force Palm
    Frenzy Plant
    Frustration
    Fury Attack
    Fury Cutter
    Fury Swipes
    Future Sight - Already known [B]YES[/B]
    Giga Drain - Mew on Spiritomb [B]NO[/B]
    Giga Impact
    Grass Knot - Mew on Spiritomb [B]NO[/B]
    Guillotine
    Gunk Shot
    Gust
    Gyro Ball - Mew on Spiritomb [B]NO[/B]
    Hammer Arm
    Head Smash
    Headbutt
    Heat Wave
    Hi Jump Kick - Medicham on Gardevoir [B]NO[/B]
    Hidden Power
    Horn Attack
    Horn Drill
    Hydro Cannon
    Hydro Pump - Salamence on Porygon2 [B]NO[/B]
    Hyper Beam
    Hyper Fang
    Hyper Voice
    Ice Ball
    Ice Beam - Mew on Spiritomb [B]NO[/B]
    Ice Fang
    Ice Punch - Medicham on Porygon2 [B]NO[/B]
    Ice Shard
    Icicle Spear
    Icy Wind
    Iron Head
    Iron Tail - Mew on Spiritomb [B]NO[/B]
    Judgment
    Jump Kick
    Karate Chop
    Knock Off
    Last Resort
    Lava Plume - Camerput on Poryogn2 [B]NO[/B]
    Leaf Blade
    Leaf Storm - Wormadam-G on Porygon2 [B]NO[/B]
    Leech Life
    Lick
    Low Kick
    Luster Purge
    Mach Punch
    Magical Leaf
    Magma Storm
    Magnet Bomb
    Magnitude - Camerput on Poryogn2 [B]NO[/B]
    Mega Drain
    Mega Kick
    Mega Punch
    Megahorn
    Metal Burst
    Metal Claw
    Meteor Mash - Metagross on Porygon2 [B]NO[/B]
    Mirror Coat
    Mirror Shot
    Mist Ball
    Mud Bomb
    Mud Shot
    Mud Slap
    Muddy Water
    Natural Gift
    Needle Arm
    Night Shade
    Night Slash
    Octozooka - Octillery on Porygon2 [B]NO[/B]
    Ominous Wind
    Outrage - Medicham on Porygon2 [B]NO[/B]
    Overheat - Mew on Spiritomb [B]NO[/B]
    Pay Day
    Payback - Mew on Spiritomb [B]NO[/B]
    Peck
    Petal Dance
    Pin Missle
    Pluck - Mew on Spiritomb [B]NO[/B]
    Poison Fang
    Poison Jab - Mew on Spiritomb [B]NO[/B]
    Poison Sting
    Poison Tail
    Pound
    Powder Snow
    Power Gem
    Power Whip
    Present
    Psybeam - Octillery on Porygon2 [B]NO[/B]
    Psychic - Wormadan-G on Porygon2 [B]NO[/B]
    Psycho Boost - Deoxys-N on Porygon2 [B]NO[/B]
    Psycho Cut - Medicham on Porygon2 [B]NO[/B]
    Psywave
    Punishment
    Pursuit
    Quick Attack - Pachirisu on Spiritomb [B]NO[/B]
    Rage
    Rapid Spin
    Razor Leaf
    Razor Wind
    Return
    Revenge
    Reversal
    Roar of Time
    Rock Blast
    Rock Climb
    Rock Slide - Camerupt on Porygon2 [B]NO[/B]
    Rock Smash
    Rock Throw
    Rock Tomb - Mew on Spiritomb [B]NO[/B]
    Rock Wrecker
    Rolling Kick
    Rollout
    Sacred Fire
    Sand Tomb
    Scratch
    Secret Power
    Seed Bomb
    Seed Flare
    Seismic Toss
    Selfdestruct
    Shadow Ball - Mew on Spiritomb [B]NO[/B]
    Shadow Claw - Mew on Spiritomb [B]NO[/B]
    Shadow Force
    Shadow Punch
    Shadow Sneak
    Sheer Cold
    Shock Wave - Mew on Spiritomb [B]NO[/B]
    Signal Beam
    Silver Wind - Mew on Spiritomb [B]NO[/B]
    Skull Bash
    Sky Attack
    Sky Uppercut
    Slam
    Slash
    Sludge
    Sludge Bomb - Mew on Spiritomb [B]NO[/B]
    Smelling Salt
    Smog
    Snore
    SolarBeam - Mew on Spiritomb [B]NO[/B]
    Sonicboom
    Spark
    Spacial Rend - Palkia on Porygon2 [B]NO[/B]
    Spike Cannon
    Spit Up
    Steel Wing - Mew on Spiritomb [B]NO[/B]
    Stomp
    Stone Edge - Mew on Spiritomb [B]NO[/B]
    Strength
    Struggle - Already known [B]YES[/B]
    Submission
    Sucker Punch
    Superpower
    Super Fang
    Surf - Palkia on Porygon2 [B]NO[/B]
    Swift
    Tackle
    Take Down
    Thief - Mew on Spiritomb [B]NO[/B]
    Thrash
    Thunder - Deoxys-N on Porygon2 [B]NO[/B]
    Thunder Fang
    Thunder Shock
    Thunderbolt - Mew on Spiritomb [B]NO[/B]
    ThunderPunch - Medicham on Porygon2 [B]NO[/B]
    Tri Attack
    Triple Kick
    Trump Card
    Twineddle
    Twister
    Uproar
    U-Turn - Mew on Spiritomb [B]NO[/B]
    Vacuum Wave
    Vicegrip
    Vine Whip
    Vital Throw
    Volt Tackle
    Wake-Up Slap
    Water Gun
    Water Pulse
    Water Spout
    Waterfall
    Weather Ball
    Whirlpool
    Wing Attack
    Wood Hammer
    Wrap
    Wring Out
    X-Scissor - Mew on Spiritomb [B]NO[/B]
    Zap Cannon
    Zen Headbutt
  22. MagicMaster87

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    I would like to test Gravity, but Obi's comments are a bit confusing. Would using Gravity and Sleep Powder repeatedly until it either misses or I have acquired a large-enough sample of successful hits be enough for the test?

    Also, does anyone know of an opponent in-game that has a Pokemon that can at least use U-Turn? I tried testing it out in a double battle, but apparently Pursuit doesn't work on your own Pokemon switching out...
  23. david stone

    david stone Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming.
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    Yes, use Double Team under Gravity, and attempt to hit the DT Pokemon with Sleep Powder. If you ever miss, you can stop, otherwise, continue going for a while. After 82 attempts at using Sleep Powder, there will only be a .5% chance of misidentification, which I'd say is acceptably low. However, I suspect that you will miss.
  24. Mekkah

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    I thought the norm was that you had to test over WiFi/link battle, since these mechanics are sometimes different from the in-game ones?
  25. ΩDonut

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    There's a female trainer north of the Resort Area that has a lead Ambipom with U-turn. She's just north of some grass where you can find Dugtrios, Cacturnes and Rhydons.
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