DP Suicune

[Wayff]

[SET]
name: Offensive Calm Mind Suicune
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Hydro Pump / Surf
move 3: Hidden Power Electric
move 4: Ice Beam
item: Leftovers / Life Orb
ability: Pressure
nature: Timid
evs: 172 HP / 120 SpA / 216 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>This particular Suicune is very effective. What makes it different from the other Calm Mind Suicune set is that instead of using two attacks, you're using three attacks and more offense.</p>

<p>As far as walling goes, it still can do a good job against sweepers such as Metagross and Garchomp. It also beats lots of sweepers by outspeeding them. With Life Orb + Stealth Rock combined, Suicune has the ability to OHKO, for example, Lucario and Machamp, with Hydro Pump and no Calm Mind boosts.</p>

<p>Calm Mind is obviously there to raise Suicune's Special Attack and let it sweep. Surf / Hydro Pump give it a good STAB and some power. Hidden Power Electric and Ice Beam give good coverage, and hits a plethora of of Pokemon.</p>

<p>For your STAB attack, Hydro Pump is recommended, as the power is too good to drop. However, if you don't want to rely on accuracy, Surf is always an alternative to Hydro Pump. Hydro Pump also only has 8 PP, while Surf has 24.</p>

[SET]
name: Calm Mind Sweeper
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Substitute
move 3: Surf
move 4: Ice Beam
item: Leftovers
ability: Pressure
nature: Modest
evs: 252 HP / 100 SpA / 156 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Unlike the Resting Calm Mind Suicune, this set attempts to pull off a cleaner sweep of the opponent.</p>

<p>Thanks to Suicune's Base 100 HP, the water dog can make 101 HP Substitutes to beat Blissey. These Substitutes cannot be broken with one Seismic Toss and block Blissey's potentially crippling Toxic. On the somewhat rare occasion that one finds Suicune against Thunderbolt Blissey, Suicune can simply Calm Mind once or twice, making even the super-effective Thunderbolt unable to break the Substitutes Suicune throws up.</p>

<p>Surf is a simple STAB attack. You'll notice the exclusion of Hydro Pump unlike on many Water types. Despite the extra power, Hydro Pump has only 8 PP and 80% accuracy, and the move barely averages more than Surf over time. Ice Beam is the secondary move here; with Ice Beam Suicune will beat Celebi more often than not.</p>

<p>Every one of the given EVs is important to Suicune. 252 HP is a must for 101 HP Substitutes. 156 Speed beats Jolly Tyranitar by 3 points, beating most Zapdos, Celebi, and Gyarados to the punch as well. The 100 EVs in Special Attack and Modest give Suicune a chance to 2HKO even Calm Blissey after 6 Calm Minds.</p>

 

[kd24]

I would name it Offensive Calm Mind and leave out suicune. Unless you didn't intend suicune to be part of the name anyway. We talked a lot about this set on shoddy and aim and I think it does have potential. Of course losing to Blissey with Toxic now hurts it and even Blissey without toxic might win, but I still think the set can work because of the extra attacking options it gives you...

<p>This particular Suicune is very effective. It has enough Defense to recover off, and enough Special Attack and Speed to sweep. What makes this different from the other Suicune Calm Mind set, is that this set relies more on attacking and holds 3 attacks instead of 2.</p>

<p>As far as walling goes, it still can do a good job against sweepers such as Metagross and Garchomp. Suicune does an extremely good job defeating sweepers such as Lucario and Dragonite as it can outspeed them both and kill with Surf and Ice Beam, respectively.</p>

<p>Calm Mind is obviously there to raise Suicune's Special Attack and let it sweep. Surf / Hydro Pump gives it a good STAB and some power. Hidden Power Electric and Ice Beam give good coverage, and can hurt a plethora of Pokemon.</p>

<p>For your STAB attack, Hydro Pump is recommended, as the power is too good to drop. However, if you don't want to rely on accuracy, Surf is always an alternative to Hydro Pump. Use Hidden Power Electric if you fear Gyarados, and Hidden Power Grass if you fear Swampert.</p>

 

[Stathakis]

you may want to mention something about the low PP of hydro pump, which is the main reason specs vappy uses surf. also, I'd run hp electric over grass, as swampert can't do too much to suicune, while +2 surf is a 2HKO, and +1 will as well with just a tiny bit of prior damage. Hydro pump will do even more. I wouldn't worry about swampert.

 

[Taylor]

I have been using this continuously to a great degree of success. I was contemplating on whether to write up my own analysis on the offenesively based Calm Mind Suicune myself.

You may want to mention that with Life Orb + Stealth Rock, you can OHKO the likes of Lucario and Machamp without a Calm Mind required. Please offer Life Orb as an alternative to Leftovers.

I don't think Hidden Power [Grass] should ever be considered as an option due to Swampert's considerably lack of popularity, not to forget the fact that Surf/Hydro Pump hit it extremely hard already. Hidden Power [Electrict] hits Vaporeon and Gyarados respectively, two Pokemon who we could argue stop this set cold otherwise. Hidden Power [Electric] should be used 100% of the time over Hidden Power [Grass].

 

[Wayff]

Thanks, Stathakis, KD24, and especially Taylor. I'm going to clear this up.

 

[kd24]

Ice Beam give good coverage, and a plethora of of Pokemon.

That doesnt make sense. Change it to "Ice Beam gives good coverage and can help beat a plethora of Pokemon.

 

[Wayff]

I reworded a few parts. After having a chat with Taylor, do you think we should change the evs to max Spe and SpA? I'm looking for some people to tell me what they think.

 

[cim]

Offensive Calm Minder set? You forgot the most important part: 101 HP Substitutes. 252 HP allows you to beat nearly every Blissey under the sun (even Thunderbolt ones after a Calm Mind or two). Substitute blocks status as well. Toxic would cripple this thing.

From there, you'll want to hit a Speed number. While Timid and 216 EVs hits... something, you'll probably just want 280 for neutral 90s. That's Timid and 196 EVs.

That leaves 60 EVs. You should put them in Special Attack so that you hurt things more.

Suggested EVs: 252 HP / 60 SpA / 196 Spe; Timid

Substitute is almost a necessity on an offensive Calm Minder, so make HP Electric a secondary option over Ice Beam.

8 PP and Hydro Pump's general inaccuracy means that it's really not that good an option. Seriously, Surf is better.

Life Orb is a terrible, terrible option. You don't want a bulky sweeper taking extra damage, do you? Plus the whole point of Calm Mind is to raise both offense and defense. Leftovers only, seriously.

 

[Venom]

Chrisisme, You are attempting to sweep, and set up as less a possible. You can't really take anything out of the moveset provided already. Taking out Hidden Power Electric like you suggest, will cause the set to fail against pokemon like Vaporeon, just like Taylor said. The set does not need Substitute.

Pretty good set Waffles, I will try this out soon, good job

 

[Wayff]

Oh wow, that post was horrible. You don't need Substitute, sure you can't beat Blissey. You use Substitute, Blissey uses Thunderbolt/Seismic Toss until you're stuck with very little health.

Your set can't even KO Gyarados after a Calm Mind? Hydro Pump is required for lots of power, the power is too good to drop. Life Orb is a great option with Wish support. I tested it today like Taylor told me to, and it works great.

Basically, you're trying to set up slowly, while you need to set up quicker.

 

[cim]

Oh wow, that post was horrible. You don't need Substitute, sure you can't beat Blissey. You use Substitute, Blissey uses Thunderbolt/Seismic Toss until you're stuck with very little health.

Your set can't even KO Gyarados after a Calm Mind? Hydro Pump is required for lots of power, the power is too good to drop. Life Orb is a great option with Wish support. I tested it today like Taylor told me to, and it works great.

Basically, you're trying to set up slowly, while you need to set up quicker.

Thanks for calling me horrible. Not like I've used several Calm Mind sets and experimented with this for months. No, I must be stupid.

"The power is too good to drop" sounds near accurate, and it should be an option. But 8 PP is bad. Bad. And over time, it averages a mere 1 BP more than Surf (120 * .8 = 96, while 95 = 95), making it even less of an option.

You can't set up "quicker" with Calm Mind. Nasty Plot / Tail Glow is "setting up quicker", not using Life Orb.

If you've EVER used a Sub/CMer, then you'd understand how Blissey would always lose with Substitute. But you haven't, so I'll explain. On non-Thunderbolt Blisseys, you lose about 12.5% of your health with each Calm Mind instead of 25 since your Substitutes take 2 turns to break with Seismic Toss. On the occasion that you do find a Thunderbolt Blissey, you simply Calm Mind once or twice until your Sub can't be broken, then set it up.

If you want to set up quickly, use a different Pokémon. You shouldn't be wasting the greatest assets Suicune has, meaning 101 HP Subs and great defenses, for "surprise value". Suicune with Substitute has massive potential. Setting up on a Blissey and then sweeping a team is an awesome sight.

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

Oh wow, that post was horrible. You don't need Substitute, sure you can't beat Blissey. You use Substitute, Blissey uses Thunderbolt/Seismic Toss until you're stuck with very little health.

Your set can't even KO Gyarados after a Calm Mind? Hydro Pump is required for lots of power, the power is too good to drop. Life Orb is a great option with Wish support. I tested it today like Taylor told me to, and it works great.

Basically, you're trying to set up slowly, while you need to set up quicker.

Ugh. If you're going to call a post horrible at least make sure yours isn't first. Substitute is a very viable option on sweeping Suicune, just ask ViL.

Hell most of the Pokemon that you lose coverage on by dropping hp electric you'll probably still beat with the sub set (though it may require a freeze).

Also outside of sand the sub version definitely beats blissey, something your version would have no hope of doing outside of a timely crit (and even then i'm not sure you'd muster the damage needed)

 

[IggyBot]

I don't see why you need all of that SpA on this set. You say it's to OHKO Gyarados after a CM with Stealth Rock up. My question is, who cares? With max HP, Gyarados still isn't going to do shit to Suicune, so why do you need to OHKO?

You can change the spread to 252 HP / 40 SpA / 216 Speed and make Substitute a VERY viable option. Right now you lose to Blissey 1v1. You win with Subsitute, it's that easy. Substitute essentially blocks "hax", since now if you get into a CM war, you can't be criticalled either. You don't need as much SpA because you're boosting it with Calm Mind. HP Electric or Ice Beam can easily be dropped for Substitute.

 

[junior]

Agreeing with Chrisisme, Iggybot and Jabba about Substitute. I personally have used quite a similar spread (same moveset but 252 HP, 4 SpA and 252 Spe) to the one Iggybot posted back on January and February and works really well. Blocking status is always a plus but just be careful of Toxic Spikes.

On such set you want Ice Beam a lot more than you would want hidden power electric, due to Celebi being widely used, as well as it being a great counter to the 'standard' CroCune. Ice Beam will let you beat it as long as you don't reveal it too early.

 

[Caelum]

Just reading over and I too would like to say that Substitute is a viable option. I've used it to great success in standard so it's not a horrible option by any stretch. I've run almost the identical spread given by Iggybot (I looked it up, mine was 252 HP/ 32 SpA/ 224 Spd). It just seems to me being forced to switch out because of Blissey when you have a viable option about beating her seems stupid to me.

Also, I'd say Substitute> HP Electric. HP Electric seems to be here for Gyara and Gyara only and Gyara is going to have to get a hell of a lot of DD's before he can do anything to you and you can wear him down so I don't see why it's such a big deal to OHKO Gyara after SR. Really, to me, it would seem HP Electric would be actually more important for Vappy who walls a Hydro Pump (or Surf)/Ice Beam set way more than Gyara. Ice Beam just seemed generally more usable to me when I tested it for stuff like Celebi and Salamence. Also, I've gone back and forth between Hydro Pump and Surf myself but really despite the higher base power I prefer Surf over Hydro Pump. Hydro Pump just has way to low of PP for my taste when this thing is supposed to stick around for a little while. Also, with the low PP of Hydro Pump you are going to have more trouble Pressure-stalling should it ever come down to that.

 

[Mekkah]

Oh wow, that post was horrible.

Yours isn't too amazing either. Debating over options being good/bad is fine but at least be civilized. I don't see anything wrong with Substitute - not moreso than, say, Life Orb or Hydro Pump (in fact, I think Substitute is better).

 

[gorm]

yeah im gad people called you out on that one wayff, especially when your very own analysis includes a first sentence that makes sure people notice that the set has 3 attacks.... is that really necessary ?_? in the same vein as "zapdos gets a free switch on choiced ground attacks"

subcm seems like a cool idea, can it beat bliss though?

would this thing boltbeam i guess?

 

[Toothache]

Sub CM can have 101 Subs and outspeeds Blissey so it can easily beat her.

 

[Caelum]

Sub CM can have 101 Subs and outspeeds Blissey so it can easily beat her.

I've run this and I'm agreeing with Toothache that it will beat Blissey, particularly if Sandstorm isn't up. The only Blissey variant it can't stop is fellow Calm Mind Blissey but that is extremely rare in standard anyway so it doesn't matter much.

 

[cim]

I'm just wondering, what does 216 Speed hit? I think it's something like Jolly base 80s. Do we really need that much? Isn't 196 Speed for neutral 90's okay as a max Jolly Base 80 Pokémon isn't terribly common?

I'm thinking that Taunt Gyarados doesn't really do much to Suicune; I mean doesn't it need like 6 DD's to be a threat? Gyarados is so over-hyped anyway that I really don't think a OHKO is necessary on him. I mean, it's not a good idea to let him DD 6 times, but other Pokémon can handle him and Gyarados will want to Taunt him early.

I've found with Substitute + Calm Minders like Jirachi, I always used relatively bulky spreads to make the Substitute harder to break. For Jirachi, I used 252 / 220 Def / 36 Spe Bold or something. Since Suicune has 30 more points in Defense than Jirachi and 20 less Special Attack, this might not be as necessary, especially since the first priority should be beating Calm Blissey. The Special Attack needs to be high enough to beat 176 SDef Calm Blissey after 6 CM's. Anyway, here's some spreads:

252 HP / 40 SpA / 216 Spe; Timid beats all Base 80 Pokémon, but only does 37-43% to Calm Blissey.

252 HP / 104 SAtk / 152 Spe; Modest outspeeds Jolly Tyranitar and does around 43-51% to Calm Blissey.

252 HP / 176 SAtk / 80 Spe; Modest outspeeds Adamant Tyranitar by 2 points and does around 46-55% to Calm Blissey.

Keep in mind that with Pressure sapping away Thunderbolt and Seismic Toss PP (to 12 and 16 respectively), Suicune will pretty much beat Blissey all the time, especially because 99% of people play without event moves now and thus there's no Protect stalling. A single critical hit from Surf's 24 PP means Blissey loses. Once Blissey is gone, you get to watch your opponent attempt to beat a +6 Calm Minded Water type. Only SD Tentacruel can do that, really.

Every spread will beat Bold Blissey.

 

[kd24]

Use the second spread then. If it is beating Jolly Tar by 2 points then that means it is also outspeeding 36 Spe Zapdos and Celebi isnt it?

Beating Calm Blissey is important and the second set can do it so using that one is the best idea.

edit:

Once Blissey is gone, you get to watch your opponent attempt to beat a +6 Calm Minded Water type. Only SD Tentacruel can do that, really.

Not even tentacruel can dream of defeating a suicune at that stage because he would have to have a Swords Dance to be a threat and:

Defender HP: 302 MoveDamage: 197 - 232
Damage: 65.23% - 76.82%

Thats a Surf on Tentacruel. Now if that tentacruel had max HP and special defense then it could take 3 surfs I suppose but then think again, that means tentacruel loses out on all that attacking power so he does nothing to cune...

Just a little fun fact.

 

[Caelum]

I personally (and from the looks of it Iggybot and Junior) like more speed on Suiciune but I can see the viability of the second spread given. It's a nice middle ground between two extremes and, as KD24 pointed out, still outruns most Celebi and Zapdos. I think the 2nd spread, Modest 252 HP/ 104 Atk/ 152 Spe, should be the one given mention in the analysis with maybe mention of higher speed (or slower) in the EV section.

 

[cim]

I decided to write up a little something on this, since Wayff seemed so adamant about the idea and that he hasn't had experience with Sub/CM sets.

[SET]
name: Calm Mind Sweeper
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Substitute
move 3: Surf
move 4: Ice Beam
item: Leftovers
ability: Pressure
nature: Modest
evs: 252 HP / 100 SpA / 156 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Unlike the Resting Calm Mind Suicune, this set attempts to pull off a cleaner sweep of the opponent.</p>

<p>Thanks to Suicune's Base 100 HP, the water dog can make 101 HP Substitutes to beat Blissey. These Substitutes cannot be broken with one Seismic Toss and block Blissey's potentially crippling Toxic. On the somewhat rare occasion that one finds Suicune against Thunderbolt Blissey, Suicune can simply Calm Mind once or twice, making even the super-effective Thunderbolt unable to break the Substitutes Suicune throws up.</p>

<p>Surf is a simple STAB attack. You'll notice the exclusion of Hydro Pump unlike on many Water types. Despite the extra power, Hydro Pump has only 8 PP and 80% accuracy, and the move barely averages more than Surf over time. Ice Beam is the secondary move here; with Ice Beam Suicune will beat Celebi more often than not.</p>

<p>Every one of the given EVs is important to Suicune. 252 HP is a must for 101 HP Substitutes. 156 Speed beats Jolly Tyranitar by 3 points, beating most Zapdos, Celebi, and Gyarados to the punch as well. The 100 EVs in Special Attack and Modest give Suicune a chance to 2HKO even Calm Blissey after 6 Calm Minds.</p>

[ADDENDUM TO THE EV SECTION]
<p>The Sweeping Calm Mind set has a few alternate EV spreads to outspeed more threats. Timid and 216 Speed beats out all Base 80 Pokémon and Adamant Lucario. 80 Speed with a non-boosting nature beats Adamant Tyranitar to the punch. Remaining EVs should always be thrown in Special Attack to more efficiently beat Blissey.</p>

 

[Wayff]

Actually, I find alot of people go to Starmie when I send out Suicune. The problem with Sub is that you can't hit Vaporeon and Starmie. Starmie usually uses Thunderbolt until you're at very little health and can revenge me. I'd much rather beat Starmie, Vaporeon etc. than Blissey.

Oh, and how do you know I don't have experience with SubCM? I've used SubCM against Justin etc., and I don't really like it.

 

[Great Sage]

<+ryubahamut> i like how the offensive CMcune debate is slowly turning acidic

OK, enough is enough, stop commenting negatively on each other, stop making assumptions of each other, figure this out in a civilized and mature manner or this thread will die. (and so may you)