DP Tier Discussion - BL and UU (mark 2)

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Have you used SP on steelix? You are only going to manage around 40% and with the attack and def drop absol wont be staying in.

Better yet, LO Fire Blast is a clean 2HKO even on max HP/max SDef Impish Steelix- Aggron isn't common enough to really have to worry about, and it still doesn't appreciate Fire Blast. I don't get why everyone is orgasming about Absol with Superpower. The stuff it would hit with Superpower get hit harder with other things, and the only reason I'd even contemplate Superpower is maybe to annihilate Clefable if need be. Absol is frail enough even without the Defense drop, and after an attack drop it's going to have to switch out against most of the bulkier opponents, which can sometimes be dangerous.

Choice Band Absol might be scary with Superpower, but he's still got the restraints of regular Absol. He's slow, which makes him rely on priority like Sucker Punch. And if he's Banded and locked into Sucker Punch, you set up on him with scary stuff while he can't do anything. If he uses Superpower, you can switch in a fighting resist and do the same thing, or do any amount of nasty stuff.

I do think Absol is broken in UU, but Superpower isn't one of the reasons.

 

[Stagnant]

Originally Posted by Fat Undefined
Because apparently 3 layers of Spikes, 2 layers of Toxic Spikes and 1 layer of Stealth Rocks are up whenever I suggest a Garchomp counter. Also a sandstorm is brewing and Garchomp has the following moveset : Draco Meteor/Fire Blast/Outrage/Swords Dance/Earthquake/Dragon Claw/Fire Fang/Crunch/Stone Edge.

God I love that statement.

Anyways, SuperPower on Absol is Smexy because Steelix and well most steel types are no longer a problem. Especially (wow this word is confusing to me...) Probopass who is not Fazed by Absol's Fire Blast in the slightest.
However, I'm not going to go so far to say that the Mix set is useless.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

EDIT: Dusclops and Kadabra as UU seem lol no offense.

Yeah, if Kadabra and Dusclops were fully evolved Pokemon they'd both definately be at least BL, in this version of the tier list.

 

[Age of Kings]

Honestly, though, the only other NFE's worthy of note would be Gligar and possibly Tangela (I didn't see Chansey mentioned but it's a given in the same category as Kadabra/Haunter/Dusclops, lol). It probably won't end up as a huge an issue as the others we have right now.

 

[outofdashdwz]

Honestly, though, the only other NFE's worthy of note would be Gligar and possibly Tangela (I didn't see Chansey mentioned but it's a given in the same category as Kadabra/Haunter/Dusclops, lol). It probably won't end up as a huge an issue as the others we have right now.

I'd consider Electabuzz, and to a lesser extent, Magmar as well. Electabuzz is worth consideration over Manectric when building a team, as it trades 10 SpAtk for 8 (iirc) more Atk and a viable physical movepool for a mixed set. Magmar is actually surprisingly fast for something so hideous, beating Kangaskhan, Venomoth, Hitmonlee and Rotom, and if using a +Spd nature, it can outspeed non+Spd base 95s. Granted, Drapion is the only thing you should be attempting to outspeed, as more often than not, Primeape, Jynx, and Sharpedo will be running a +Spd nature, not to mention are often scarfed.

Annnnnd now after I finished typing that, I just realized you might talking about being viable for BL when you said "worthy of note", in which case the paragraph above would be irrelevant and make me look like a stupid ass <_< But if that were the case, I must argue that Gligar and Tangela aren't BL material for a plethora of reasons.

 

[Age of Kings]

No, no, what I meant was NFEs competitively viable at all by "worthy of note". Let's face it, people aren't going to care too much for most of the rest that weren't already mentioned besides Hippopotas/Snover. I didn't mention Electabuzz and Magmar, because for all purposes, they already are "widely considered" UU, in the same vein as Pikachu and Clamperl.

(Note that my second statement wasn't all inclusive; there's probably a couple, like possibly Togetic, that would probably be used. But yeah, for the most part, the vast majority are completely useless.)

 

[Darkflagrance]

But yeah, for the most part, the vast majority are completely useless.)

Which is why tiering them will not shake up the metagame significantly, yet provide satisfaction and utility to those who simply wish to use a Shelgon on their UU teams.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

Well, as of December, when we start making the proper UU tier, we won't have this problem, as all NFEs will be allowed, and tiered just like any other Pokemon.

I just wish some people hadn't decided to let the in-game status of a Pokemon affect the tier list. That's almost as stupid as banning Entei, Articuno, Raikou, Registeel, Shaymin, etc. to Ubers because they're legendaries, like some people used to want to do.

 

[Age of Kings]

Hey guys, your best friend is now OU, you can rejoice now.
I can finally touch UU again. >_>;

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Why is Torterra BL? Can a pokemon with all of those weaknesses really be that effective? If teams can handle Venusaur, Vileplume and Meganium, Torterra really shouldn't have any problems. It's pretty easily countered by any Flying or Grass type.

Does anyone else agree with me or am I just insane?

Also, what about Regigigas? Those base stats are pretty impressive, but with that 5 turn wait can it even do anything in UU?

 

[Colonel M]

IIRC X-Act posted a set that was viable with Regigigas in UU. I can't remember the exact EV spread and such but it went something like this:

- Substitute
- Return
- Rock Polish
- Earthquake

Seems to tear a lot of things up not named Rotom if you ask me. Substitute can easily wear out the 5 turn restriction (it's quite bulky believe it or not) and Rock Polish can help it's ass Speed until it's released from Slow Start. I dunno, it's mainly those defenses that make me have a second thought about him.

 

[Cynthia]

Flying type= Stone Edge to the face

Grass types do OK in general, but they need to be pure Grass to resist EQ, and really there aren't too many viable pure Grassers (Meganium and ....) They can't hurt Torterra too much anyway unless they carry HP Ice or something.

EDIT: umbarsc makes a good point about Weezing, he wasn't UU when I tested Torterra before

 

[umbarsc]

Grassers that aren't part Poison can handle it reasonablem, and Weezing is almost a complete stop to it.

However, I don't think any BL Pokemon should be brought down to UU. The only reason we have this metagame existing is so that we can play the current UU until the tier change is made, so I don't think moving down new Pokemon is the wisest choice.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

IIRC X-Act posted a set that was viable with Regigigas in UU. I can't remember the exact EV spread and such but it went something like this:

- Substitute
- Return
- Rock Polish
- Earthquake

Seems to tear a lot of things up not named Rotom if you ask me. Substitute can easily wear out the 5 turn restriction (it's quite bulky believe it or not) and Rock Polish can help it's ass Speed until it's released from Slow Start. I dunno, it's mainly those defenses that make me have a second thought about him.

Rotom says what's up.

Also, FUCK OFF AERODACTYL.

 

[pit-fall]

As for NFEs I think Shelgon could work in UU as a Sleeptalking tank or possible DD sweeper.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

As for NFEs I think Shelgon could work in UU as a Sleeptalking tank or possible DD sweeper.

Yeah, now he could work well, but in December, when the BLs are unbanned, he'll be pretty useless to be honest.

 

[pit-fall]

So Border Line Pokemon will be allowed in UU matches?

 

[umbarsc]

Technically, no. What will happen is that every BL Pokemon will be moved to UU for a "fresh start", if you will, and we move Pokemon to BL from there.

However, yeah, that's the gist of it.

 

[X-Act]

I did post that Regigigas set, but it wasn't my decision to lay it off UU. If you want to try it out, be my guest.

Although it seems like that will happen rather soon since I gather that all Pokemon not OU or Uber will be tested in a suspect UU metagame. However, personally I haven't heard of a date when this is going to happen. :( I would propose that this starts as early as next month, when the more concrete OU list is compiled.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

I did post that Regigigas set, but it wasn't my decision to lay it off UU. If you want to try it out, be my guest.

Although it seems like that will happen rather soon since I gather that all Pokemon not OU or Uber will be tested in a suspect UU metagame. However, personally I haven't heard of a date when this is going to happen. :( I would propose that this starts as early as next month, when the more concrete OU list is compiled.

Someone said a couple of pages ago in this thread that it's happening then. At any rate, I can't wait until we get rid of this currently flawed UU, and get a proper metagame.

And would I be correct in presuming that if we can get a balanced metagame without banning a single Pokemon (so, if T=20 gives about 50 Pokemon), then we won't even need to consider banning anything, or not until a Pokemon begins dominating or centralizing? Or don't you know about that?

I know that it will never happen, but if it actually did, I'd be worried that some Pokemon would be banned, just for the sake of it.

 

[Cynthia]

I suppose in theory nothing would have to be banned if everything in the current UU,BL,or NFEs were found to be balanced, but that isn't very likely.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

I suppose in theory nothing would have to be banned if everything in the current UU,BL,or NFEs were found to be balanced, but that isn't very likely.

Yeah, it's probably almost an impossibility, but I reckon if it did happen, some people wouldn't be able to get to grips with the fact that we don't have to ban anything if the metagame turns out fine.

Another thing that I'm worried about is that people may go a tad overboard with the bannings. If we ban 10 Pokemon per month, we're going to end up with the same problem as we have now. 30-50 interesting Pokemon that we don't get to use because they're not very useful in OU and are banned from UU. Unless it is completely obvious that a handful of Pokemon need to be banned in one go, I think we should stray away from doing that.

 

[pit-fall]

On a side note, when we have this fresh start with the BLs and UUs and from there decide who goes in what tier, will we also be considering making a definative NU list?

 

[cim]

The definitive NU list would be able to start immediately after the first month of Shoddy statistics come out. It would be unstable for a few months, but it would exist, completely objectively! It will be done in the same way.

We should have done this with OU.

 

[Cynthia]

The NU list should probably be created after the metagame has become at least somewhat stable, maybe 3 months or so. Then if NU is wanted to be a competetive tier, it should be tested on a separate ladder where another banlist can be made between NU and UU.

On a side note, testing does not make tiering "completely objective", for a number of reasons:

1. The cutoff point is arbitrary.
2. Usage correlates with power, but they are not equal
3. Any bans that would be made would still involve the subjective opinions of those on the ladder.
4. The pool of players on the ladder will likely be small enough, and the number of available Pokemon so high that individuals can skew the statistics. I can move up Luvdisc or something to a much higher amount than it rightly deserves if I so choose.

It is nearly impossible to eliminate all subjectivity from the tiering process and those that think otherwise are naive. Additionally, subjective opinions are not worthless and neither is theorymon. The Pokemon community is created by the players, especially those who have shown they know what they're talking about, so it is the opinions of the players that ultimately make the decisions.