DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU

[cmg474]

I think Typhlosion should be BL. He has a STAB 150 BP move off 109 base SpA. In UU he could use Choice Specs over Scarf because a lot less things would outspeed him. That would be more powerful than a SpecsMence Draco Meteor (resisted by more though). Most UU pokemon that resist fire would still get 2HKO'd.

In BL there would be stuff like Milotic and Snorlax as well as a lot more Pokemon that outspeed the Specs version.

 

[Mekkah]

I think absol should go to BL. And no it is not because its my favourite pkmn. It has an insane 130 base attack. And if you had super luck with night slash and psycho cut you could get a lot of critical hits and do an insane amount of damage. In UU anyway. Although its speed is probly too low considering how low its defences are. Absol is the kind of pkmn thats too powerful for uu but will probly struggle in ou.

Absol's 75 speed is, in my opinion, exactly average. Which means it is slower than anything we would call "speedy". Combine that with pretty horrid HP and defenses and switchineritis and you have a very hard Pokemon to get going. He's not going to draw many eyes for UU, not enough to warrant BL status anyway.

 

[cornflake]

I have no idea how good Floatzel is (I bet it sucks, especially with a CB, though), so I'll have to hold off judgment on that.

A CB Floatzel is far too strong for UU, and Rain Dance sets and Bulk Up passing are really what sets it over the edge. BL it is.

 

[TheMantyke]

125 actually. See my above post. Agreeing with Deck Knight on Mamoswine. It's way too much for UU.

about your post, swellow can activate guts va the burn orb and still get the attack boost. U-turn is great on swellow for getting away fo\rom counters, and a choicebandded staratptor doesnot have the versitilitty to use different moves, nor the speed, nor a 140 base power Stab attack that reaches 210 when factoring in stab. there's good and bad in both of them, with each having there us and downs, but both are BL material.

 

[Lee]

Yes, but Toxic Orb is still better. Anyway, there's no doubt Swellow can hit things hard, but you need to consider that there is a lot of Pokemon that can counter Swellow with ease, exploiting his switchineritis (thanks Mekkah). Having said that, there is even more Swellow counters in UU. Aggron and Probopass are pretty much the perfect definition of a Swellow counter, and many others aren't far behind.

He's easily knocked out by a surprise Choice Scarfer, an unexpected Focus Sash lays waste to him, and if the opponent has any form of offence, they will OHKO provided they survive the Facade. He's pretty much a faster version of Pikachu, albeit more restricted. Whereas Pika can deal both special and physical damage with moves like Surf, Grass Knot, Thunderbolt, Focus Punch etc. etc, Swellow is limited to Facade, Brave Bird, U-Turn, Steel Wing and maybe Pursuit. This makes him very predictable, and very, very easy to counter.

I'm speaking with experience as I have battled with Swellow a lot, and he has won many battles for me, but all the opponent has to do in switch in Skarmory and I'm back to square 1. Then I gotta struggle to switch him back in, which usually involves sacrificing a Pokemon and getting rid of Stealth Rock. And if I haven't got rid of Skarmory yet, I've wasted my time, because he'll switch back in.

It's easy to be blinded by his power and speed, but he's the sorta Pokemon that will fall flat on his face against any well made squad. As a late game sweeper, you can do a lot worse, but if we're limiting him to the OU metagame, you can also do a lot better. As a Choice Bander, he's eclipsed by Staraptor, as a Guts user he's eclipsed by Heracross, and if I wanted to use a fast, hard hitting bird, I'd be using Aerodactyl.

EDIT @ Wish Hax

Why is this exactly? I don't see why it's better over Flame Orb, when they both have the same effect in the end anyway. Mind explain, please?

I have sent a PM explaining, so as not to go off-topic in this thread.

 

[Forsety]

I propose that Gligar be made a BL. He now has Roost, which when combined with his decent speed and good defense will make him a real force in UU. If he goes with SD+Roost+EQ+Stone Edge, he will be very difficult to contend with in UU. I don't really see anything stopping it easily.

Gligar has always been top level UU anyway, adding Roost won't do much. Lots of things got Roost and among other moves in UU. If anything leaving Gligar in UU is beneficial as theres a lack of things which can reliably switch into SR or a good Stone Edge/Close Combat etc.

That and the common Gligar is a simple sweeper.

Therefore, unless you can point out a true 100% counter to it, I say it should be BL for the reasons highlighted above.

Anything with Will O'Wisp can lock down Torterra pretty easily to be honest. Its how I deal with it all the time. Also theres the small matter of a friend named Gligar above. As I see it if you can honestly move Gligar to BL then Torterra can go too otherwise they can both remain in UU.

Anyway just going to address a few things.

Cloyster-
BL seems too high for it, I mean its weak to SR, goes down easily on the special side even from attacks it resists. The thing technically has one of the WORST s.def in the entire game. Sure it can Rapid Spin, Spikes, Explode as its merits but if you play it too early you are open to being hit with Rapid Spin and too late and you'll always come in at 75% health. Oh yeah and it can't learn Stealth Rock either so I doubt many will be rushing to use it.

I just don't think it'll make too much an impact in a higher environment while UU always welcomes more Rapid Spin users weak or not.


Poliwrath-
I really suggest you to consider a possible BL. Water Absorb, Hypnosis, Belly Drum and now it even gets a STAB Waterfall as well as Brick Break and even physical Ice Punch from Advance. In terms of brute stats its a powerhouse most BL's can't hurt significantly enough let alone UU, it only has 70 speed but thats always fixed by a Salac Berry. Its a high payoff for little work really.

 

[bobblyhead]

Poliwrath is definitely BL, seeing how he snaps UU in half. Belly Drum, Substitute, good attack and HP to SubPunch with, he can dish out a lot of damage. His typing also gets STAB on Focus Punch, which Azumarill (who is BL as well) would die for.

Speaking of which, Azumarill definitely deserves BL. 101 Subs that Miltank can't break, Focus Punch, Belly Drum, Huge Power, and average defenses make for a great CBer/SubPuncher/Belly Drum abuser that otherwise would destroy UU play.

And yeah, Shedinja IMO deserves UU, seeing how Spikes, Burn/Toxic, Stealth Rock, Hail (Hail teams are in BL, remember?), and any SE hit kills him. It's only real use is coming in on something that can't touch it, WoW/Toxic the switch, and switch out, or SD and then Shadow Sneak (which is destroyed by Zangoose, mind you).

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Anything with Will O'Wisp can lock down Torterra pretty easily to be honest. Its how I deal with it all the time. Also theres the small matter of a friend named Gligar above. As I see it if you can honestly move Gligar to BL then Torterra can go too otherwise they can both remain in UU.

Well that much is obvious. Will-o-wisp can lock down any non-Fire/Guts physical attacker, but there is still the problem of being able to switch in safely. Also, I don't see how Gligar counters it as even one with max HP/Def takes around 58% minimum from CB Wood Hammer, and cannot stall out its HP with Roost. Personally I think Meganium is a far better counter to Torterra, maybe Tangela too, but I still don't think it would be enough to allow it in UU.

 

[MegaBassFalzar]

I think Typhlosion should be BL. He has a STAB 150 BP move off 109 base SpA. In UU he could use Choice Specs over Scarf because a lot less things would outspeed him. That would be more powerful than a SpecsMence Draco Meteor (resisted by more though). Most UU pokemon that resist fire would still get 2HKO'd.

In BL there would be stuff like Milotic and Snorlax as well as a lot more Pokemon that outspeed the Specs version.

Okay. First things first. If that Base 150 STABed move is Blast Burn, then no. Just, no. Blast Burn is a horrible move. Personally, Choice Band Ty is damn powerful. It can seriously injure SkarmBliss and can definitely take out a Ttar. However, no one uses these for obvious reasons. Ty should get knocked down to UU. He can compete in BL, but not so well, and either way, his base stats and movepool only allow him to SunnyBeam or get in a Scarf'd Eruption before being slaughtered.

 

[Ancien Régime]

He might have been thinking Eruption.

In any case, the question isn't "is Typhlosion too weak for BL", it's "is it too strong for UU"

And the fact is, there is very,very little in the theoretical UU environment that is not severely threatened by Choice Specs Typhlosion at full health using Eruption (because there is not much use of field damage moves, Spikes, SR, TS, etc, and weather changers are automatically BL).

The old Sunny Day + Sub + Petaya + Blaze set is also quite dangerous, especially now that it can Sunnybeam.

Like the poster you quoted stated, a Cspecs Eruption is more powerful, both in terms of Special Attack and Base Power, than SpecsMence Draco Meteor, not to mention that there are fewer things that can switch in safely, AND Typhlosion doesn't neccesarily have to switch out after using it.

 

[Bologo]

Ursaring definitely cannot be UU. With the addition of Quick Feet, a Choice Band Ursaring can not only use the 130 base attack, but also a speed boost to enhance his killing spree. It can also do the exact opposite with Guts and a Choice Scarf. Seriously, this guy is really painful to deal with once it gets statused. Even with just a Choice Scarf, it can rip things apart with the huge attack, or with a Choice Band, it can still take a hit with 90/75/75 defenses and hit back really hard. Also, very little can switch into this thing in UU. Way too powerful, and should really be considered for BL.

Also, Obi or LordS, or someone, I have a question. Would you say that there are pokemon that are NOT up for debate for moving from UU => BL, or BL => UU? Just like how Blissey was in the OU/Ubers thread?

It might really help clear things up if there are one that you guys don't want discussed. But if not, alright then.

 

[Great Sage]

Well, I'll look over the tier listing in more detail later, so I'll just discuss the prompts:
Mamoswine-130 Attack and STAB Earthquake is nothing to joke about, and a Choice Banded Ice Shard off this thing hurts a lot. It is also reasonably durable with its 110 HP, and 80 Speed is actually decent. BL

Scyther-On one hand, this thing gets murdered by Stealth Rock and has a bunch of common weaknesses such as Rock, Electric, and Ice, but on the other, it has a Technician boosted Aerial Ace coming off 110 Attack (X-Scissor isn't too shabby either). Additionally, it can Swords Dance and Agility, and either keep them for itself or Baton Pass them off, which shouldn't be too hard with 105 Speed. I'm really on the line about this one.

Ambipom-Though it is fragile, it boasts 115 Speed and 100 Attack, and has a nice movepool to work with. Technician is also really nice to boost stuff like Fake Out, and Return off that Attack does a bunch of damage when boosted by Life Orb or Choice Band. Basically, U-Turn ensures that it won't get hit by a low to medium Speed team for a long time. BL

 

[Calciphoce]

Another topic I'd like to touch up on is Sceptile. With pretty good attack, even better sp attack, blistering speed, and a fairly large movepool, this thing seems like it would be too much for UU. Specstile can be extremely dangerous, what with the addition of leaf storm and all. What UU walls can handle overgrown STAB CS Leaf Storm coming from either 309 or 339 sp attack, honestly? I can't think of one. On the subject of overgrow, this helps his ability as a subseeder by a significant amount, as if his incredible speed wasn't enough.

Hell, the thing could even be a special wall of sorts. It's sp def reaches nearly 300, and it's HP goes to 344. He also has synthesis, leech seed, Roar, Toxic, grasswhistle, and crush claw (for the defense drop). Combined with any form of spikes/SR, this could be extremely dangerous, too dangerous for UU in my opinon.

 

[Fishin]

Swellow wouldn't use Hidden Power Fighting; it would use Steel Wing or Endeavor.

Well...Swellow's HP Fighting (assuming negative nature) would do 47.38% - 55.81% on a 252 hp, 252 def Impish Aggron, while Guts-boosted Steel wing (neutral nature, 252 atk EV's) does a measly 11.34% - 13.08%.

That's somewhat of an exaggerated example as Aggron is definitely the most physically defensive of the Rock/Steels (against a 252 def, 252 hp bold Probopass Guts'd steel wing does 13.89% - 16.36%, HP Fighting does 24.38% - 28.70%. Pretty useless either way, but HP Fighting does a fair amount more). Endeavor is situational and would probably only work once, but it does have the potential to do a lot of damage.

Then again...that pretty solidly places Swellow in UU. If something that's definitely UU can wall it that easily, I can't see it being too powerful for the UU environment.

 

[Lee]

Yes, can we just drop that, please. It's not the point of the thread. For the record, Toxic Orb does less damage over a few turns than Flame Orb, but otherwise they have the same effect. So use Toxic Orb.

I'm a little shocked to see Sceptile being debated for UU. It was a firm OU last gen, and has the introduction of Tangrowth and revival of Breloom really knocked him so far down the Grasses ladder? He's still the fastest Sub-Seeder in the game, and can go other options (Swords Dance, Choice Specs, Endeavour...even Choice Band). Such an unpredictable Pokemon, with a high BST and good movepool is not UU material IMO.

Agreeing with Bologo on Ursaring. And after using the Kristy Haruka Floatzel moveset, I recognise Floatzel as a good Pokemon. It's hard for me to give an opinion without more experience, but I'd see him as a top-tier UU or a lowly BL.

@Maniaclyracist: If it does that much damage to Aggron, then you're damn right Swellow has a use for it!

 

[Fishin]

Hidden power is now a special attack, Swellow has no use for it.

I wouldn't say it's completely useless if it gives him the ability to destroy something that would otherwise wall him. On the other hand, Aggron is basically it's only use, so...I wouldn't consider it as one of the better options available.

Another topic I'd like to touch up on is Sceptile. With pretty good attack, even better sp attack, blistering speed, and a fairly large movepool, this thing seems like it would be too much for UU.

I agree with you completely here. If it's still under debate...one point that I'd also like to make is that there's not a solid UU counter for Sceptile until you know it's moveset (at least...I can't think of any right now). The Swords Dance variant of Sceptile also has a lot of potential to sweep stuff in UU without Skarmory and Bronzong to wall it.

 

[Calciphoce]

I'd agree with you here completely, but Sceptile is already listed as BL (not sure if it got changed after your post).

Even if it didn't change after I posted, cementing his position isn't a bad thing.

 

[obi]

OK, because you guys keep talking about it, I'm going to explain why Toxic Orb > Flame Orb.

Flame Orb does 1/8 damage each turn. This means it does 2/16, 4/16, 6/16, 8/16 total.

Toxic Orb does n/16 damage each turn. This means it does 1/16, 3/16 6/16, 10/16 total. So if you can keep your Swellow for 3 turns, they are identical. If we accept the fact that if Swellow doesn't OHKO, the odds are very high that it will be OHKOed in turn, then it's difficult to keep Swellow in for any length of time.

There are no Pokemon banned from discussion, provided they are being moved BL <--> UU.

 

[Lee]

lol Calciphoce, I thought Sceptile in UU sounded a little crazy! The tier thread doesn't appear to have been edited. Maybe you just overlooked it. No matter, he's in BL, where we wanted him.

I think there's a good call for Zangoose to be UU. Ambipom seems to be better than Zangoose, with his far superior Speed, Technician and ability to Baton Pass Nasty Plots. Yet Zangoose is listed firmly in BL, whlst Ambipom is being debated? I appreciate the threat that Zangoose can pose with Swords Dance, but it doesn't make up for it IMO.

 

[Fishin]

Even if it didn't change after I posted, cementing his position isn't a bad thing.

I edited my post a few seconds ago...that was me not paying attention. Anyways...

Slowking has better overall Special Defense than Grumpig, due to its higher HP, and because of its Water type, also resists Ice and Fire, matching Grumpig. It is similar to Hypno in the SpDef department too. In addition, Slowking has better defense than both of them, and now sports an instant recovery move in Slack Off, unlike both. It has also access to a better range of Special attacks than both, and moreover has a higher stat (100) to use them. With Nasty Plot, it can also use those attacks to good effect. I'm also sure that Slowking in Trick Room conditions would be quite nasty.

I agree with this, Slowking is too good for UU. Defensively, it's 95/80/110 defenses are definitely superior to Grumpig's 80/65/110 and Hypno's 85/70/115. Unlike those two, it also has a reliable recovery move. It's also much more of an offensive threat - with Nasty Plot, 100 base sp atk, great defenses plus a recovery move, and a very solid special movepool to back it up with, Slowking can definitely sweep an UU team, especially with support from Trick Room. It's additional weaknesses do hurt it, but Slowking still is superior defensively, and is a much greater sweeping threat than either of those two.

 

[Calciphoce]

lol Calciphoce, I thought Sceptile in UU sounded a little crazy! The tier thread doesn't appear to have been edited. Maybe you just overlooked it. No matter, he's in BL, where we wanted him.

I think there's a good call for Zangoose to be UU. Ambipom seems to be better than Zangoose, with his far superior Speed, Technician and ability to Baton Pass Nasty Plots. Yet Zangoose is listed firmly in BL, whlst Ambipom is being debated? I appreciate the threat that Zangoose can pose with Swords Dance, but it doesn't make up for it IMO.

Like I said, even though he was already listed as such, confirming it so that new members who read this thread won't say otherwise isn't a bad thing. Speaking of that, could we have certain post(s) that are linked to each Pokemon's name as to why they are in that particular tier, in a similar fashion to Jump's post about Blissey being OU? I think that this could help keep the useless post count down.

Agreeing with the Zangoose comment.

 

[Bologo]

Oh, I almost forgot, Lapras. This thing is a killer in UU. Although it is weak to stealth rock, that doesn't really matter that much, as it can just switch in to a water attack and restore the 25% back. Also, with 130/80/95 defenses, it can still take a huge amount of hits.

Now it can be a serious Dragon Dancer with its new physical STAB. Dragon dance works off its above-average 85 base attack and fixes up its only crap stat - speed. Waterfall is very dangerous, because not only does it become really strong, but since his speed stat is also going up, this thing can start flinching the opponent. Coupled with Return, only Empoleon can resist it. Lapras is good at both attacking stats, and can just murder Empoleon with Thunder/Thunderbolt. That seems pretty damn good to me.

Curse Lapras can be a killer as well with Ice Shard and Avalanche in its arsenal, and also makes him very hard to kill because of the defense boosts.

There's no way that Lapras can be UU. It was solid in ADV, and it has only gotten better, so it deserves to be a solid BL again.


Another one I have to mention is Dodrio. Even with Staraptor outclassing it, it's too strong for UU. It's got STAB Drill Peck or Brave Bird to kill things with, and with no weather in UU, STAB Flail with kill damn well everything. It can also Baton pass (XD) Acupressures, which can be very useful, especially if it gets a double accuracy boost. 100 base speed is pretty high for UU and 110 base attack is killer. It was an OU many times in ADV, so there's no reason why it should be completely UU just because Staraptor came in, because there's still things that Dodrio can do that Staraptor can't. Too freakin powerful.

 

[Trust]

Kabutops should be in BL. If it gets a Rain Dance boost, it could sweep really good with a STAB'd boosted Waterfall, and with Brick Break, Aggron and Probopass couldn't wall it.

 

[Colonel M]

Actually, I don't see why Zangoose should be knocked down a peg to UU. It did get Close Combat, which is absolutely rape for Aggron even. STAB Return can hurt, and Shadow Claw allows decent coverage. Even STAB Quick Attack gets a mention, because priority moves kill Flail sets. And speaking of Flail sets, Zangoose can pull this well without Sandstorm / Hail screwing it up.

I think Ursaring was BL to begin with thanks to Quick Feet and Choice Scarf, but I could've been informed wrong. Actually he got a HUGE change from Advanced, such as physical Fire Punch, Close Combat, physical Dark attacks, etc. If for some reason he was UU, I think he would be BL anyways. 130 Attack, par Defenses is pretty good. Yes the Speed is crap, but now it's easily fixed.

Actually, here's something to consider: HP Fighting on Swellow doesn't sound as bad as you think. With Guts activated, you do roughly 52.62% - 61.92% on Aggron (252 HP EVs). Considerably that's basically a 2HKO most of the time. This is assuming, however, Neutral Nature for both Swellow and Aggron, and Swellow not packing EVs into Special Attack, nor Aggron with Special Defense. However I'd only consider HP Fighting if Swellow was UU.

I will have to second with Slowking being BL. Slack Off and Nasty Plot really helped with his tanking skills quite well, and Bolded Calm Minds is insane to deal with. And after seeing how Slowking's Defenses beat Hypnos and Grumpig's, I think there could be a way that BL could fit for him. He can even pull off a Curse set decently.

 

[Forsety]

Another one I have to mention is Dodrio. Even with Staraptor outclassing it, it's too strong for UU. It's got STAB Drill Peck or Brave Bird to kill things with, and with no weather in UU, STAB Flail with kill damn well everything.

I think you've slightly underestimated the UU's. Their power level has gone up significantly since Advance and Dodrio hasn't actually changed very much besides BB. Its defences also make it a rather large magnet for quick attack type moves. Also with the loss of Hidden power Dodrio has absolutely no coverage. Honestly look at its moveset, it'll be instantly walled by any half decent Rock or Steel type.

Also just noticed the Ambipom/Zangoose matter and I'm heavily agreeing with that too. Putting Zangoose before Ambipom is just plain silly and defies all logic. However I completely disagree knocking it down to UU, Zangoose is much stronger than that.

Also, I don't see how Gligar counters it as even one with max HP/Def takes around 58% minimum from CB Wood Hammer, and cannot stall out its HP with Roost.

Besides the fact everytime it uses that CB Wood Hammer its losing a chunk of its own HP too and you'd probably be running Leftovers too and quite possibly could hit it with a STAB Aerial Ace when its lower on health?
Oh lets not forget that you could always run U-Turn too and simply grab a grass resist now you know whats coming.

Also you said it yourself Meganium can do a good job against it too and lets not forget Carnivine. Its defenses aren't exactly bad and it has immunity and resistance against its two best STAB's.