DP Weezing

[Anti]

Why is HP Ground even a main option if it's just for Heatran? When can Weezing ever counter Heatran?

 

[Mekkah]

Yeah, I like how it seems the analysis is writing off either one of Haze / Will-o-Wisp (which are pretty much mainstays imo) just for a Hidden Power that will really only hurt one or two Pokemon (Tyranitar won't care).

 

[Lee]

This as well as Stealth Rock + 60 Sp. Attack Flamethrower ensures a 2HKO every time, which Fire Blast does not.

So, instead of risking the 85% accuracy of Fire Blast to 2HKO Heracross, you'd rather not sacrifice a handful of HP and Defence EV's and pray that Stealth Rocks are down?

Here's a quick point too:

206 Fire Blast vs 0/0 Breloom = 88.12% - 103.45%
221 Flamethrower vs 0/0 Breloom = 75.10% - 88.12%

Fire Blast can OHKO with zero EV investment. Flamethrower fails to do so, even with all those EV's thrown in.

Here's another one!

206 Fire Blast vs 252/0 Magnezone = 52.03% - 61.05%
221 Flamethrower vs 252/0 Magnezone = 41.28% - 48.55%

Hi, I'm Fire Blast and I 2HKO Magnezone with no EV investment.

And a quote from Jumpman for good measure.

Well done, I'd mention Fire Blast in the first set or in other options though, as Flamethrower, with your EV spread, will never 2HKO a Heracross coming in to grab a Guts boost from WoW, and it's usually the case that if Weezing is using a Fire Attack, it can afford to miss, much like Blissey uses Sing.

tl;dr: Put Fire Blast on there.

 

[Colonel M]

Geez, so many opinions. Well then, that's what this peer edit is for, correct?

Weezing doesn't counter Heatran, but still he can catch him coming in, can't he? I thought it would be other options material after thinking hard about it.

I guess what I don't understand is the "Standard" moves Weezing packs. I know a lot pack Fire Blast + Thunderbolt, or pack Hidden Power Ice, or Shadow Ball, or Sludge Bomb, but that surely doesn't help with what should Weezing focus on. I guess this is where I'm extremely lost at.

Also, Haze is still used. Hazing isn't exactly the best, but it still works. I think it still deserves a moveslot IMO.

Hmm... if Fire Blast does that much to Breloom, that still requires Breloom stepping into Stealth Rock (which he resists) for the OHKO. But a 2HKO on Magnezone is welcome. God, why so many decisions!?! >_>;

Whatever, I've decided. I'm slapping in Fire Blast. Final answer, no questions asked about why it is there and not Flamethrower. If wanted, I can throw that Flamethrower can 2HKO Heracross with the EV investment and stepping into Stealth Rock.

Currently doing:

* Throwing HP Ground into other options.
* Making a note about Rest in other options over Pain Split.
* Throwing Flamethrower (with EVs) into other options as well.
* Minor re-write of the first set.

 

[Anti]

So, instead of risking the 85% accuracy of Fire Blast to 2HKO Heracross, you'd rather not sacrifice a handful of HP and Defence EV's and pray that Stealth Rocks are down?

Yes. Dropping Weezings HP to 320 isn't all bad anyway as it gives it max Leftovers recovery. Breloom can do a Jolly ol' jack shit to Weezing, what's the rush to kill it? Magnezone rapes the shit out of you regardless, what's it got to do with it? And I'm not dropping Defense EVs.

Taunt is a small problem with Weezing, so Gyarados could just Taunt Weezing's efforts to do much. This is where Thunderbolt comes in. Thunderbolt will always OHKO Gyarados

0 Sp. Attack Weezing Thunderbolt vs 212 HP/Min Gyarados: 63.54% - 74.74%
60 Sp. Attack Weezing Thunderbolt vs 212 HP/Min Gyarados: 67.97% - 79.95% - Did someone say a potential OHKO with Stealth Rock?

0 Sp. Attack Weezing Thunderbolt vs 72 HP/Min DD/CB Dos: 69.91% - 82.23%
60 Sp. Attack Weezing Thunderbolt vs 72 HP/Min DD/CB Dos: 74.79% - 87.97% - Did someone say a practically confirmed OHKO with Stealth Rock?

look anti. calcs that matter.

I wouldn't mind dropping a few EVs into Speed either for no Speed Tyranitar. 8 EVs will outspeed Boah, 12 for 0 Speed T-tar. 196 HP / 252 Defense / 48 Sp. Attack / 12 Speed could be another option.

48 Sp. Attack Weezing Flamethrower vs 4 HP/Min Heracross: 44.37% - 52.32% - Exact 2HKO with Stealth Rock.

Also, based on your Breloom calcs...

Fire Blast average damage: 95.786 x 0.85 = 82.2681
Flamethrower average damage: 81.61 x 1.00 = 81.61.

So. You do 1% more on average. And drop your confirmed 2HKO for a 22.5% chance of an OHKO. You find that worth it?

 

[Colonel M]

If 320 HP give Weezing max HP recovery (which, to be honest, what I was looking for in the first place), I'll be more than glad to throw that in instead and throwing the rest of the EVs into Speed. Wish you told me that sooner, otherwise I would've put it in. Thanks though for the info on it.

Fixed Gyarados comment. I guess... in this case, I'll throw in those EVs. I'll add how Flamethrower does work on the first set in the comments, but I don't think the first set needs any more slashes, so I'm not going to stress it.

[EDIT]: Put everything in. EV comments are in the bottom of the SET COMMENTS for the Physical Wall.

 

[Anti]

wow I prob'ly should've mentioned that beforehand. I think Flamethrower should really be a promary option even if it has a /. You're putting in the Sp. Attack EVs that make the difference, why not put it there?

 

[Lee]

Magnezone rapes the shit out of you regardless, what's it got to do with it?

That's exactly what it has to do with it. Magnezone rapes the shit out of Weezing, so he is a common switch in. He won't be if Weezing uses Fire Blast. He could stay in and TBolt Weezing, but would be KO'd in return if he did so. With Fire Blast, Weezing beats the 'Zone switch. With Flamethrower, Weezing dies or switches out.

Breloom can do a Jolly ol' jack shit to Weezing, what's the rush to kill it?

If anything, Weezing needs to OHKO Breloom to be a counter or he will lose everytime, which is why Fire Blast or even Sludge Bomb should be listed, maybe even with your reccomended SpA EVs. If Breloom has a Sub, then you're just fucked.

Basically, the only reason to use Fire Blast is if you're mortally afraid of missing the target. Go look through the analysis - Fire Blast is reccomended on everything because in the long and short run, it does more damage than Flamethrower.

A lot of analysis also list Fire Blast/Flamethrower which seems like an apt solution to this problem.

 

[Anti]

Also, based on your Breloom calcs...

Fire Blast average damage: 95.786 x 0.85 = 82.2681
Flamethrower average damage: 81.61 x 1.00 = 81.61.

So. You do 1% more on average. And drop your confirmed 2HKO for a 22.5% chance of an OHKO. You find that worth it?

And Weezing isn't about killing magnezone switch ins. nor would it ever stay in at the sight of magnezone.

If anything, Weezing needs to OHKO Breloom to be a counter or he will lose everytime

why

If Breloom has a Sub, then you're just fucked.

why

what on earth is Breloom going to do to Weezing? Even the rare Stone Edge will barely dent it.

Go look through the analysis - Fire Blast is reccomended on everything because in the long and short run, it does more damage than Flamethrower.

that's because it's preffered on sweepers who want to do as much damage as possible to whatever is coming in to kill them. Weezing is a tank, it's using a fire move to beat Heracross (and breloom). why would you use fire blast when the more accurate flamethrower will beat them both in the same ammount of turns?

 

[AJC]

breloom is useally faster and will gladly spore you if it can

 

[Lee]

If Breloom gets a Leech Seed on Weezing, Toxic Orb allows him to SubSeed Weezing to death. Weezing will be forced to switch, allowing Breloom to rack up passive damage, and unleash a Focus Punch/repeat the Seeding process. Weezing can't beat Breloom.

 

[Colonel M]

I'm just adding the slash to prevent this argument from going further.

 

[Anti]

Weezing can't beat Breloom.

Then what does it matter if you don't have Fire Blast for it?

I'm just adding the slash to prevent this argument from going further.

It would be better if we reached a conclusion.

EDIT: Been thinking about this somewhat. SePh pointed out that if you're VSing a SubSeeder such as Breloom, Flamethrower is the far superior option due to being able to knock out the Substitutes 100% of the time preventing a Focus Punch as well as having the PP to do so.

Also. If we're just talking about hitting HeraLoom, HP Flying will do considerably more.

60 Sp. Attack Weezing HP Flying 70 vs 4 HP Breloom: 110.69% - 130.15%
60 Sp. Attack Weezing HP Flying 70 vs 4 HP Heracross: 66.89% - 78.81%

/shrug. I wouldn't use it, it lowers your coverage, though it could be mentioned in other options if you have other ways of dealing with Metagross.

60 Sp. Attack Weezing Flamethrower vs 252 HP Metagross: 39.01% - 45.88%
4 Sp. Attack Weezing Fire Blast vs 252 HP Metagross: 46.15% - 54.12%

Either way I'd burn it. Then Flamethrower will finish it off 100%.

 

[Colonel M]

Alright, I've officially decided. And note this right now: THIS IS MY FINAL WORD ON FLAMETHROWER VERSUS FIRE BLAST SUBJECT UNLESS SOMETHING EXTREME HAPPENS!

The option on the set will be Flamethrower. Anti, you did prove some good points. First off, beating Breloom one-on-one is important, if not even more important than just putting big scars onto certain Pokemon. Second, Lee, you did have some situations where Fire Blast is useful, but then again Anti did prove that a Magnezone would never switch into Weezing and the same could be applied to Weezing switching into Magnezone, and some of the other Pokemon mentioned are still easily slaughtered by Flamethrower. I've put Fire Blast into Other Options, in other words. If you want to carry on the argument, PM me about the subject and please at least give proof and reason with your argument.

The fact that the whole Special Attack EVs placed there won't hurt very much, so I'm not really worried about the subject. It could be applied like Brave Bird on Skarmory when he takes some of his Defense EVs for more Attack.

Sorry if this sounds a little harsh, but I'm trying to rationalize a solution to this problem, and obviously a slash won't do it (it was temporary until I could reach a decision).

 

[Anti]

It's good that it was ended.

Anyway onto the rest of the analysis. I personally believe that the Sleep Talker and Special Attacker are more gimmick sets. Pain Split is usually reliable and considering how much Weezing has to fight for its moveslots, losing two vs one just doesn't sound like a good option to me. I think it deserves a mention in other options, as an alternative for people who personally don't like Pain Split, which I have heard of.

The Special Attacker really seems like it wouldn't do much. Weezings Sp. Attack is very average and considering that Weezing needs Leftovers and cannot use an item such as Life Orb, you're really aren't going to do much damage. Especially when your most powerful STAB Attack doesn't effect a very common type.

 

[Colonel M]

I could shakily agree on the Special Attacker, but the reason I did leave it in was because the analysis had it, and then I'd get posts like "Where's the Special Attacker?". It's mostly just to suprise an opponent, but I can say it's meh-ish at best. Sleep Talk can stay, since even though you and I can say Pain Split is alright since Weezing is slow anyways, some can argue that Rest + Sleep Talk are feesible because Pain Split can be unreliable at times, which it can if your opponent is at low health and so are you. I didn't like how the analysis did that moveset either, but it was agreed on back then. I guess I'm willing to think about putting Sleep Talk into other options and perhaps scrapping the Special Attacker. I'm not going to be hasty about it yet though.

 

[Anti]

I agree. Other opinions would be good.

 

[Slice n Dice]

You need Hidden Power Ground as an option for the wall, even the "gimmicky" special attacking set. Heatran is weezing's #1 100% counter, and will hate to eat an Hp Ground before weezing runs.

 

[Colonel M]

I put it in Other Options. Putting it on the main set would be too extreme because Heatran is obviously faster than Weezing. The best that Weezing can catch Heatran is only on the switch.

I'm eliminating the Special Attacker. It is craptastic.

 

[Too_Hungry35]

<p>Weezing was commonly used as a physical wall back in Advance, and in this set that remains unchanged for our floating yet gaseous friend. Resisting Bug and Fighting as well as being immune to Earthquake, Weezing makes a fine Heracross counter, which is why Flamethrower is an option here. With the EVs, Flamethrower will 2HKO Heracross, but is only a slight moot point, as with some secondary damage such as sandstorm or even Stealth Rock damage, it can easily become a 2HKO. The HP EVs allow maximum health recovery from Leftovers, so it is prefered here. Flamethrower is also better against things like Substitute Brelooms, where the accuracy is especially needed.</p>

preferred.

Will-O-Wisp versus Haze is something that is to be determined. Haze may remove any stat gains or loses along the way, but Will-O-Wisp can do something similair to Pokemon that focus on raising their Attack, so it almost barely matters. The biggest moot point to Will-O-Wisp however is the burn rate will keep Pokemon like Tyranitar from wreaking entire havoc on you. Mixed sets will still get you, but when Tyranitar is losing 22% each turn, he isn't going to last long.

similiar.

 

[Colonel M]

Made the changes that were suggested. I guess the only thing to ask is if I should just re-write the opinion and counters? Otherwise, this one is also finished.

 

[Anti]

Anyone have any other thoughts? I'd like to edit this.

 

[Colonel M]

Whew, went and redid this and did a quick spellcheck. To be aware of it: I think I had a misspelled word somewhere and accidentally bypassed it. Also, I do have a couple of sentence fragments, so if they need fixing just tell me and I'll re-write the senteces.

Thanks for the patience.

 

[Colonel M]

Triple posted due to lag. Sorry.

 

[Colonel M]

(Ugh, sorry for the triple post. Bad lag).