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Copyediting DPP Checks and Counters Project

Discussion in 'DPP Analyses' started by Jellicent, Jul 19, 2012.

  1. Jellicent

    Jellicent ~the spirit who loves spirits~
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    Approved by Oglemi

    Essentially, we're looking at a DPP version of this. Some of the DPP analyses are really lacking in the Checks and Counters sections. This project will not be completely rewriting these descriptions, simply buffing them up. Knowing how to deal with a threat is essential for analyses, so increasing the amount of information in these sections is crucial. Not everything necessarily needs an update, and we should probably figure out what is fine as is. Being a past gen, this is not exactly a top priority. That said, I'd still like to see this move along at a decent pace.

    Just like the BW equivalent, there will only be a few of us working on this. The team consists of Iconic, Steven Snype, Stone_Cold, Eo Ut Mortus, DracoMalfoy, ballabrown24, and Ojama. Each update will be posted here, where anyone can weigh in on something worth mentioning or removing.

    Remember, guys, even though we're adding a bunch of information, there's no need to add fluff. Let's not make a book here; be thorough, but also concise. Whenever someone makes an update, I'll look it over with another team member to see if anything else should be added. After that, I'll personally GP it and edit it into the SCMS.

    Let's get it ^.^

    Uploaded:

    Suicune
    Swampert
    Zapdos
    Lucario
    Weavile
  2. Eo Ut Mortus

    Eo Ut Mortus Elodin Smells
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    I hope I'm doing this right. Please check for accuracy/wording.

    Suicune

    Bulky Grass-types are effective checks to all variants of Suicune. Celebi can Calm Mind alongside Suicune and beat it with Grass Knot or Energy Ball, barring a critical hit or a freeze. It also has Trick, Perish Song, and Leech Seed as alternative options for disabling Suicune. Shaymin can cut through Suicune's Special Defense boosts with drops from Seed Flare, typically used in conjunction with Leech Seed and Protect. Abomasnow and Ludicolo, with their unique type combinations, resist Suicune's STAB and avoid taking super effective damage from the rest of its common moveset (Abomasnow should be eternally careful of a surprise Hidden Power Fire). The former can wear down Suicune with Leech Seed and circumvent its Special Defense boosts through Wood Hammer; the latter is generally reliant on Grass Knot but also has access to Leech Seed, Swords Dance, and Seed Bomb to take out Suicune. Roserade is not as effective of a check as its fellow Grass-types due to its relative frailty, unable to switch into a healthy offensive Suicune and win one-on-one, but it can deal heavy damage to any variant through either Grass Knot or Leaf Storm, cripple offensive variants with Stun Spore or Sleep Powder, and beat defensive variants in most cases.

    Water-types are also good answers to Suicune. Vaporeon is one of the best options for scouting a Suicune set: it can switch in, use Wish, and Roar it out, although it will be worn down by repeated Hidden Power Electrics. With Toxic, Vaporeon can also outlast Suicune without Rest or Substitute; however, there is typically no way for Vaporeon to beat defensive Suicune without support. Thanks to its typing, a healthy Kingdra can set up on Suicune with Dragon Dance and beat it with Outrage. With Thunderbolt, Starmie can beat a weakened or unboosted Suicune. Milotic can use Haze to eliminate Suicune's boosts and wear it down with Toxic; although Haze's 64 PP will enable it to win the ensuing stall war, Milotic has no efficient method to beat Suicune by itself.

    From there on out, Suicune's counters are mostly dependent on what move it's not carrying. Blissey is a safe switch-in to any Suicune set; however, it only beats sets that lack Rest. If Suicune doesn't have Hidden Power Electric, Water-types such as Gyarados and opposing Suicune give it a lot more trouble. Sets without Ice Beam are bait for Grass-types and Dragonite.

    Regardless of set, Thunderbolts from Electric-types such as Zapdos and Rotom-A will heavily damage Suicune unless it already has more than a couple of Special Defense boosts. With its recovery ranging from less-than-reliable to none, Suicune is also susceptible to powerful physical hits from Pokemon such as Lucario and Gallade. And if all else fails, Explosion will heavily damage or take out Suicune, while Trick will all but disable it.
  3. Jellicent

    Jellicent ~the spirit who loves spirits~
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    Well written, informative, and to the point. Solid work, Eo, that's a great first example of what we're looking for. I'll leave this for a of couple days so anyone that wants to weigh in can, after which I'll look it over with someone else on the team, GP it, and put it up onsite. Great job ^.^
  4. sandshrewz

    sandshrewz POTATO
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    Not sure if it's worth mentioning but if something is going to Trick Suicune, it's good to ensure that there's a Water resist or something that can take +1 Surf so it doesn't end up sweeping at +1 >.> I've tried Heracross as a totally unreliable check if I have nothing else. Iirc +2 Guts-boosted Close Combat from Adamant Heracross might OHKO CroCune. Heracross might get KOed by Surf though. Choice Band and Swords Dance Gallade have a chance of beating Suicune due to its okay special bulk. DD Taunt Gyarados might be able to set up on CroCune as well, or RestTalk can phaze non-Hidden Power Electric ones. Lanturn can SubCharge alongside Suicune sometimes if it doesn't get too many boosts.

    Hope these suggestions are right / of some use :d
  5. Jellicent

    Jellicent ~the spirit who loves spirits~
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    After reviewing with DracoMalfoy and Iconic, I added in a bit about Lanturn and GPed Suicune. Our first update is now onsite! Thanks, Eo ^.^
    garchomp7472 likes this.
  6. sandshrewz

    sandshrewz POTATO
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    Just thought of this... Quagsire is an okay check to Suicune lacking HP Grass as long as the latter doesn't have too many boosts. It's best against CroCune thanks to Water Absorb just like Vaporeon. It can Toxic Suicune and force it to Rest over time if it doesn't switch. It also has Encore to lock Suicune for another Pokemon to check it.

    Quagsire also walls Life Orb Starmie without Grass Knot if that should be added to Starmie's analysis. Breloom is one that I would suggest looking at. It needs a bit of beefing up :/ Gengar can't take too many Seed Bombs and Breelom paired with Tyranitar isn't rare either.Gengar is 3HKOed iirc. U-turn is a good way to check Breelom as well as long as it breaks Substitute so that an appropriate switch-in can be sent against SubPunch.
  7. LizardMan

    LizardMan A mo so true.
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    HP Grass is virtually non-existant on Suicune. Grass Knot Starmie is uncommon, and Quagsire is light.
  8. Stone_Cold

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    Just to let you know, i'll start doing some of these once im home from Florida.
  9. Ojama

    Ojama Are you watching closely...
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    I can help if you need it.
  10. Jellicent

    Jellicent ~the spirit who loves spirits~
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    Now that this Smog issue is pretty much wrapped up, I'm gonna turn my attention back to this. Hopefully I'll have something written up soon~

    Also, Ojama: seeing as you're on the DPP Experienced Player list, and willing to help out, I'm up for adding another member. This could use a jump start anyway. Welcome aboard ^.^
  11. Ojama

    Ojama Are you watching closely...
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    Ok thanks Jellicent.

    Also if you could pm me / vm me what you want me to do that would be nice because I don't know what you've already done / are doing.
  12. Eo Ut Mortus

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    Celebi

    This is a bit long; I think I got carried away. If anyone could make this more concise, that would be great (if not, I will try later).

    Blissey is a great initial switch-in to Celebi. It has Toxic to force Celebi to switch out, Natural Cure to eliminate paralysis from Thunder Wave, and Softboiled to recover any damage incurred in the exchange. Blissey only struggles with the occasional Leech Seed set or Baton Pass variant. Snorlax functions similarly to Blissey as a counter, trading bulk and reliable recovery for immediate attacking power. Offensive sets can threaten Celebi with their Choice Band-boosted STAB attacks or Pursuit, while defensive sets can set up with Curse. Curse-less defensive sets will have to rely on PP stall and/or Body Slam paralyses to beat Celebi, though. While it doesn't necessarily take a dedicated special wall to beat Celebi, keep in mind that most of Celebi's other counters and checks are crippled by Thunder Wave. Togekiss completely walls Celebi, but because it is especially reliant on Speed, it must avoid switching into Thunder Wave at all costs. Dragonite is in the same boat; additionally, it should take care to avoid the rare Hidden Power Ice.

    Many of Celebi's potential checks and counters must also take care to avoid being surprised by super effective coverage moves. Heatran is a reliable answer to most Celebi sets, but a Nasty Plot-boosted Earth Power will OHKO even ShucaTran. Skarmory can withstand repeated Hidden Power Fires from a defensive Celebi, but hits boosted by either Life Orb or Nasty Plot will cause severe damage, if not an immediate KO. Crobat is another decent check, but switching into Psychic will severely damage it. Gengar operates similarly, except it's even worse off: Psychic actually OHKOes it, while Celebi can be EVed to survive Shadow Ball. Infernape, cursed with weaknesses to both Earth Power and Psychic, must exercise even more caution when switching into Celebi but is an effective check otherwise.

    One of Celebi's most easily exploitable weaknesses is to U-turn. In addition to Crobat and Infernape, Flygon and Jirachi are capable of checking Celebi through U-turn, although both will get worn down if repeatedly switching into Grass Knot/Energy Ball and Hidden Power Fire/Earth Power, respectively. If they are Choice Scarfed rather than Banded, U-turn will not OHKO, either; a healthy Celebi has the option of staying in and using Recover, though Jirachi can take advantage of this and use Trick. Scizor, the premier user of U-turn in OU, should be extremely careful to avoid Hidden Power Fire, which will KO with residual damage. Its U-turn is the strongest and most punishing, however, and it can use Pursuit to heavily damage a retreating Celebi. Additionally, Choice Scarf variants can earn a surprise KO on a complacent Celebi staying into use Hidden Power Fire. Gliscor can beat most defensive Celebi by using Taunt to prevent Recover and then using U-turn; however, Leaf Storm from offensive variants will deal heavy damage to it. Azelf can switch in on anything that isn't Leaf Storm or Thunder Wave and threaten with a Choice Band boosted U-turn—if it hasn't used Explosion turn 1, anyway.

    Celebi's other most commonly exploited weakness is to Pursuit. Tyranitar can survive anything up to a Specs Leaf Storm from Celebi and force it to predict between Crunch and Pursuit, although a wrong prediction can be as fatal to it as it is to Celebi. Weavile works in a similar fashion: it's a better switch-in to Grass Knot than Tyranitar, but worse for most of Celebi's other attacks. While Metagross is significantly weaker against Celebi—its Pursuit lacks STAB and its STAB of choice hits Celebi only neutrally—, unlike Tyranitar and Weavile, it can afford to mispredict a Celebi switch-out, as its bulk lets it survive a few Hidden Power Fires or Earth Powers. Heracross is not as competitively viable as OU's more conventional Pursuit users, but it can withstand a Hidden Power Fire or Psychic thanks to its respectable special bulk, and it can actually switch into Celebi's Thunder Wave and benefit from it thanks to Guts.

    There remain a few other unmentioned checks to Celebi, but most are situational or set specific. Most Celebi carry Hidden Power Fire, but the ones that don't are vulnerable to the aforementioned Scizor, as well as Abomasnow and Forretress. If Celebi lacks Calm Mind and has Grass Knot as its STAB of choice, Rotom-A can force it out with the threat of Shadow Ball. Jirachi can use Body Slam in conjunction with Iron Head to flinch Celebi to death but will be rendered useless should Celebi hit it with Thunder Wave. Jirachi can also freely set up Calm Minds on most defensive Celebi; however, it will lose to an opposing Calm Mind set with super effective coverage and be forced out by sets with Perish Song. Roserade can set up entry hazards on defensive Celebi, but it has no way of beating it unless it carries Sludge Bomb. Funnily enough, Celebi can also check itself through using a slower U-turn to another check, using Perish Song to force its doppelganger out, or setting up with Calm Mind. Naturally, it should also beware these same strategies itself.
  13. Ojama

    Ojama Are you watching closely...
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    Lucario

    Gliscor is probably the best switch-in to Lucario, since it can take easily its Close Combat and KOs it in return with Earthquake. In addition, Gliscor is now always used with a Jolly nature, so that means it is faster than Lucario Jolly. In addition, Gliscor can easily takes an ExtremSpeed +2 from Lucario with its great defenses. You have to be careful though because Lucario does get Ice Punch and can predict your switch on Gliscor. Defensive Celebi is another great switch-in since it resists easily to Close Combat and can paralyze Lucario with Thunder Wave and even hit it with Hidden Power Fire. Celebi is even able to survive a Crunch +2 LO from Lucario after Stealth Rock damage. But keep in mind that Lucario is often used with Crunch and so Celebi isn't the perfect counter. Bullet Punch version is easily checkable for Celebi. Still about the Physical Set, Gyarados is also a great counter. With Intimidate and its resistance to fighting moves, Gyarados is able to handle Lucario after Stealth Rock damage. You still have to be careful to Stone Edge version. Offensive Gyarados can be considered as a check since after Stealth Rock damage, Close Combat +1 LO can kill it, but defensive version is probably one of the best switch-in to Lucario. Talking about flygin Pokemon, Zapdos is another nice check / counter which depends on the set. Offensive set can resist a +2 ExtremSpeed after Stealth Rock damage, but still. Physically Wall set works better against Lucario even though you have to be careful with Stealth Rock, Ice Punch and Stone Edge.

    Those who survive to a +2 Close Combat LO from Lucario are few. Hippowdon is one of them. It can take the Close Combat and KO it with Earthquake. Suicune is a great counter. Suicuine's great defenses allow it to take a Close Combat +2 and hit Lucario with Surf. In addition, the offensive version outruns Lucario, resists to an ExtremSpeed +2 and takes it down with Hydropump. Shaymin does the same work, both defensive and offensive versions. Physicall Def Jirachi is also able to take the hit and kill it back with Fire Punch or it can paralyze it with Thunder Wave. Still about Jirachi, it has a great resistance to Bullet Punch and ExtremSpeed and is faster than Jolly Lucario with a Jolly Nature. So that means offensive Jirachi like ScarfJirachi or Superachi are able to handle Lucario. Rotom-A is great switch-in since it has an immunity to Close Combat, ExtremSpeed and a resistance to Bullet Punch. Only problem is Crunch for the defensive version. But the offensive version is faster than Lucario and resists its two priority moves so Rotom-A can easily take it down with Overheat or Thunderbolt. ScarfMagnezone is an interesting counter since it traps Lucario, resists easily to ExtremSpeed / Bullet Punch +2 and kills it with Hidden Power Fire or Thunderbolt. Still talking about Choice Scarf users, Tyranitar is a great counter if Lucario doesn't carry Bullet Punch since it outspeeds it and resists to ExtremSpeed while it can KO it with Superpower / Earthquake. ScarfScizor does the same job : it resists to Bullet Punch / ExtremSpeed and kills Lucario with Superpower.

    Gengar is the reason of Bullet Punch's utilization. It has an immunity to both Close Combat and ExtremSpeed. Additionally, it outruns Lucario and destroys it with Focus Blast. Without Bullet Punch, Gengar is a very nice check to Lucario (watch out to not send your Gengar on a Crunch). Infernape cannot switch to a Close Combat or even to an ExtremSpeed from Lucario, but it can revenge kill it with Mach Punch / Vacuum Wave (around 70%). Heatran isn't faster than Lucario, but the Scarfed version resists to ExtremSpeed / Bullet Punch and destroys Lucario with Fire Blast / Earth Power.
    Specially version has almost the same checks / counters than the physically version. Gliscor, Zapdos, Gyarados, Gengar, Shaymin, Celebi, etc... Its only priority move is Vacuum Wave so that means Gengar, Rotom-A, etc are great counters to the specially version.
  14. dadoux

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    "Offensive Gyarados can be considered as a check since after Stealth Rock damage, Close Combat +1 LO can kill it"
    Isn't it "can't be considered" ?

    + Maybe mentionning the Agility set ? It's more played than the specially oriented ones imo, Swampert / Skarmory can both take at least one Close Combat ( ~50% w/ SR and Leftovers ) without being killed so they can be mentionned. ( and ScarfTom / Zone / Tran / Ttar / Gon can check or revenge kill this set anymore obviously )
    If Ttar is counted as a check, maybe LOAerodactyl too ? They RK him with the same conditions. ( no Agility / Bullet Punch )

    Good job anyway.
  15. Ojama

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    No, "can" since without Stealth Rock Gyara is able to survive + it has intimidate + it is often used with a Jolly nature so it outruns Lucario.
  16. PttP

    PttP Shoutout to the sidewalk for keeping me off the streets
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    im in this project now.

    Swampert

    Swampert's most obvious counters are Grass-type Pokemon. Celebi and Shaymin both can shrug off an Ice Beam with ease and Celebi has the option of setting up multiple Calm Minds or KOing Swampert immediately with Grass Knot or Leaf Storm while Shaymin eviscerates Swampert with a STAB Seed Flare. Breloom also beats Swampert with little difficulty as it can either Seed Bomb Swampert for the outright OHKO, or can opt to use it as a set-up fodder by using Spore and then setting up a Substitute. Roserade also has a field day with Swampert as it has the option of either opting for the KO or setting up either Spikes or Toxic Spikes. All these Pokemon must be wary of a Choice Band Ice Punch though, as it deals major damage. Abomasnow can beat Swampert through the use of a STAB Wood Hammer, or can choose to wear Swampert down with the combination of Leech Seed and Substitute. Unexpected Grass moves can rain on Zapdos's day, as its 4x Grass weakness causes even unSTABed Grass moves to hurt. Zapdos and Raikou with Hidden Power Grass deal major damage to Swampert, although Raikou must be wary of Earthquake. Infernape and Jirachi make good use of Grass Knot, targeting Swampert's high weight and low Special Defense, but must also watch out for Earthquake.

    Bulky Water-types have no problem dealing with Swampert, as they resist Ice Beam and take minimal damage from Earthquake. Suicune is able to set up multiple Calm Mind's on Swampert and deals heavy damage with Surf. Vaporean with Toxic is a major thorn in Swampert's side as it is able to outstall Swampert once it statuses it through the use of Wish and Protect. Vaporean without Toxic also beats Swampert one-on-one, although without Toxic, Swampert is able to switch out without repercussion. Defensive Starmie also enjoys being switched into Swampert as it is able to spin away the Stealth Rock Swampert sets up, and then can proceed to kill it through use of Surf while recovering off any damage Swampert inflicts. Taunt Dragon Dance Gyarados sets up on Swampert while preventing it to use Roar through the use of Taunt, while at the same time Ice Beam does pitiful damage to it.

    Swampert is horribly vulnerable to essentially all Spikes users, and although these users can't OHKO Swampert, they accomplish their roles as entry hazard setters. Skarmory sets up Spikes with ease on Swampert as it not able to harm Skarmory with any of its moves. Skarmory with Taunt is an even better counter as it prevents Swampert from roaring it out before it can set up multiple layers of Spikes. Forretress can spin away the Stealth Rock Swampert sets up, while at the same time is able to set up multiple layers of Spikes or Toxic Spikes. As stated earlier, Roserade can set up both Spikes or Toxic Spikes, or can opt for the OHKO. Smeargle can Spore Swampert and then set up Spikes, while also being able to use Taunt to prevent Swampert from setting up Stealth Rock.

    Because Swampert has no form of reliable recovery, it desperately hates status. As such, Rotom-A is a good counter to Swampert as not only will Swampert be unable to harm it, but it is able to burn Swampert with Will-o-Wisp. Dusknoir does much of the same that Rotom-A does, however Duskinor is vulnerable to being hit by Earthquake. Although Blissey is not the ideal Swampert counter, it can use Toxic to cripple Swampert and then proceed to outstall it through the usage of healing. In general, if you can get some sort of status on Swampert, its defensive abilities are greatly reduced and it is a much easier threat to deal with.
  17. PttP

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    Zapdos

    Because of Zapdos's versatility, it is hard to outright counter it. However, there are certain Pokemon that can stop Zapdos regardless of set. Immunity Snorlax tops this list, as with Immunity it is immune to Toxic should Zapdos choose to run it, and with its high Special Defense, Zapdos has a hard time dishing out any noticeable damage. Thick Fat Snorlax does a good job at beating Zapdos, but it must watch out for Toxic. Provided Zapdos doesn't have Toxic, Blissey and Tyranitar are excellent counters to Zapdos. With Blissey's enormous special bulk, Zapdos is rendered useless and is forced to switch out lest it want to be statused. With Sandstorm raging, Tyranitar's special bulk increases greatly and so does its ability to counter Zapdos. Tyranitar doesn't fear any of Zapdos's moves and easily beats Zapdos by using either Crunch or Stone Edge. However, Tyranitar must be wary of using Stone Edge on SubRoost Zapdos, as Pressure allows Zapdos to stall out all of Stone Edge's PP. Specially defensive Heatran threatens Zapdos through the use of either Lava Plume, Toxic, or Roar.

    Many of Zapdos's counters depend on what Hidden Power it is using. While using Hidden Power Ice, Zapdos is vulnerable to Pokemon such as Swampert and Mamoswine. Swampert is able to take any attack Zapdos throws at it and is able to KO Zapdos with a combination of Ice Beam and Earthquake (as it uses Roost). Mamoswine is able to switch into anything not named Heat Wave and threaten Zapdos with either Ice Shard or Stone Edge. While using Hidden Power Grass, Zapdos's counter list expands greatly. Pokemon such as Gliscor and Flygon make excellent switch ins as Gliscor is able to Toxic Zapdos, which greatly reducing its staying power, and Flygon is able to outmuscle it. Nidoqueen can use Zapdos as a set up fodder in order to set up either Stealth Rock or Toxic Spikes, and is then able to KO Zapdos through the use of Ice Beam. Celebi is able to paralyze Zapdos with Thunder Wave, essentially crippling it for the rest of the match, however Celebi must be cautious of Heat Wave. Shaymin is on the same boat as Celebi, but instead aims to KO Zapdos with Hidden Power Ice rather than crippling it. All of these counters are dependent on Zapdos lacking Toxic.

    Pokemon such as Electrivire and Jolteon can switch into Thunderbolt with impunity and have the bulk to switch into any of Zapdos's other moves, making them good checks to Zapdos. Electrivire can use the Motor Drive boost in order to fire off super-effective Ice Punches, while Jolteon can use Thunderbolt to deal major damage. Although both Pokemon do have the bulk to take any of Zapdos's moves, that does not mean they can repeatedly switch in, as they will quickly wear out. Raikou can set up multiple Calm Minds on Zapdos provided it does not get hit by Toxic. ResTalk Rotom-A can switch into Zapdos and then proceed to wear it out while recovering when need be. Weavile threatens Zapdos with strong a Ice STAB that causes Zapdos to run in fear. Weavile is able to use Ice Punch to KO Zapdos if it chooses to stay in, or can use Pursuit on the predicted switch to deal heavy damage.
  18. Eo Ut Mortus

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    Lucario: Content-wise looks fine to me for the most part. As Morpheus said, since Agility > Special, there should probably should be a brief mention of Agility Lucario and how it has a bunch more potential counters.

    Swampert: Uh don't think I'd mention Infernape without explicitly mentioning that it can't even switch in. Maybe mention that random Grass attacks from Pokemon it otherwise checks can be a method of dealing with Swampert, offering Infernape, Raikou, Zapdos, Jirachi, etc. as examples. Mention Toxic in the status paragraph (for example, Blissey kind of "checks" Swampert in this way) Togekiss mention is kinda randomly placed, also, so it probably should be moved somewhere else.

    Zapdos: Might be worth mentioning how Blissey can play SToss/Toxic mindgames with Zapdos. Curse/Rest Tar also beats Zapdos, although it was a rare set to begin with and certainly isn't used much at all now. Mamo mention should probably be moved up to paragraph 2 with all the Ground Pokemon. Nidoqueen is a niche Pokemon but deserves a mention for being able to set up on most Zapdos. And you mention Electivire but not Raikou/Rotom-A, smh. Raikou can set up on Zapdos if it doesn't switch in on Toxic (ChestoRest also destroys Zapdos). RestTalk Rotom-A can burn/outstall Zapdos. Heatran probably warrants a mention somewhere; special defensive Leftovers set can Roar Zapdos out/threaten it with Lava Plume burns and/or Toxic. CM Wish Jirachi sets up on SubToxic but is prone to getting haxed. Roserade sets up hazards on SubToxic but can't do much else to it.
  19. PttP

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    Weavile

    Steel-types are particularly troublesome for Weavile. Scizor is easily Weavile's greatest enemy, it can KO Weavile with either Bullet Punch or U-Turn, while taking minimal damage from any of Weavile's attacks. Similarly, Metagross does a fine job beating Weavile with either Meteor Mash or Bullet Punch, although it must be wary of switching into a Choice Band Night Slash. Jirachi is a good option as it is able to withstand any attack Weavile uses and respond with Iron Head. Bronzong is also a good counter to Weavile as with Weavile will have a hard time breaking through its high defenses. It can use its defensive ability to set up Stealth Rock and then subsequently KO Weavile with Gyro Ball. Skarmory can come in on Weavile to set up Spikes and then Roost off any damage Weavile inflicts, or can opt to KO Weavile with Brave Bird. Forretress can also switch into Weavile with impunity and proceed to either set up hazards or KO with Gyro Ball.

    Pokemon with a high amount of bulk are also a challenge for Weavile, as with Weavile's pitiful defenses, almost any attack will put it in a dire situation. Gyarados is a good example of this as with Intimidate it is able to take any attack Weavile throws at it and KO Weavile with Waterfall. Swampert can switch into Weavile and KO it with Earthquake, with Weavile failing to do any meaningful damage. Suicune and Vaporean can do much of the same, being able to KO Weavile with Surf before Weavile can KO them.

    Machamp is an excellent counter to Weavile, as Weavile isn't able to do nearly enough damage to KO it before it responds with a super-effective DynamicPunch. Faster Pokemon are also major threats to Weavile. Choice Scarf Heatran and Lucario can switch into everything barring Low Kick and then proceed to outspeed and KO Weavile with their respective STABs. Jolteon outruns Weavile and can proceed to deal heavy damage with Thunderbolt. Infernape and Hitmontop can both switch into any of Weavile's moves and then KO it with priority Mach Punch.
  20. Jellicent

    Jellicent ~the spirit who loves spirits~
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    Ruiner of Alph

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    Currently no laptop access, probably for about 2 weeks or so. I got Swampert up, but SCMS stuff is a bit more annoying to do now ;-;

    Anyway, Ballabrown: I'll do your others tomorrow, most likely. Eo: Stone is gonna shorten yours, and I'll GP and get it up when he PMs me. Ojama: just noticed you added a bit about Agility Lucario. I'll GP and upload that as well, again most likely tomorrow.
  21. Ojama

    Ojama Are you watching closely...
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    Aerodactyl

    Great physical walls don't have any problems to handle Aerodactyl, even though with Taunt + Roost and a powerfull Stone Edge, it can easily destroy Skarmory. Swampert is an incredible counter since it resists to Stone Edge easily and Earthquake does nothing at all. In addition, Swampert can kill it with its STAB'd Waterfall or with Ice Beam. Even when Aerodactyl uses Roost, you can predict it and use Earthquake to take it down. Another great counter is Hippowdon, even though it's a bit tough if you don't carry Ice Fang but it's still a good counter since with Life Orb, Aerodactyl will lose some HPs and will use Roost so you could KO it with Earthquake. Bronzong is probably the best counter to Aerodactyl because it has an immunity to Earthquake and easily resists to Stone Edge with its great defense. In addition, Bronzong is able to OHKO Aerodactyl with its STAB'd Gyroball. Since we're talking about Gyroball, let's mention Forretress as another great counter with its incredible defense. Forretress doesn't have a resistance to Stone Edge but it can still take it quite easily. In addition, Gyroball does the same thing as Bronzong : OHKO. You have to keep in mind that Specially Defensive Forretress doesn't handle Aerodactyl as easily as the Physically Defensive one though. Additionally, SpD Forretress doesn't carry Gyroball most of the time but Payback. It still does good damages, but Aerodactyl has Roost.

    Still about the Stallbreaker set (Earthquake / Stone Edge / Taunt / Roost with Life orb), Rotom-W is almost 2HKO'd by Stone Edge after Stealth Rock damage, but it's still an interesting switch in since it can either OHKO Aerodactyl with Thunderbolt (watch out, it doesn't if there is the sandstorm since Aerodactyl gets a boost in SpD) or burn it with Will O Wisp (watch out Taunt). Physically Defensive Celebi and Shaymin also work well to check Aerodactyl with their great defense. While Shaymin has Seed Flare to do really good damages, Celebi only has Energy Ball / Grass Knot (defensive celebi doesn't carry leaf storm). Celebi can still paralyze it with Thunder Wave if you play well and can also use Energy Ball when Aerodactyl is using Roost since it will lose its flying type so it will be super effective (there is still the problem with the boost in SpD). Gliscor can be mentioned as a counter if it does carry Ice Fang because without it, Aerodactyl can easily break it with Taunt + Stone Edge since it has a ground immunity. Gliscor can still use Earthquake on the Roost though. To end with the physical walls, let's talk a bit about the bulky waters. Suicune is an amazing counter with its incredible defense. In addition, even with the boost in SpD, Surf does a lot. Vaporeon isn't as good as Suicune to handle Aerodactyl but it can be considered as a good check. Stone Edge 3HKO's it but Surf does good damage and it has Wish + Protect (once again watchout with Taunt).

    Fighting type Pokemons are great checks to Aerodactyl. For example, Breloom and Machamp easily resists to Stone Edge and kill it back with Seed Bomb / Focus Punch or Dynamicpunch. You still have to be careful, especially with Breloom since sometimes Aerodactyl is used with Aerial Ace. Flygon with its ground immunity and its resistance to Stone Edge works as a good counter. Additionally, Flygon is often used as a scarfer so it outruns Aerodactyl and kills it with either Stone Edge or Outrage. While the Lead doesn't do a lot with Stone Edge, the LO Set can be threatening since it 3HKO's it. Since we're talking about a Scarfer, Jirachi is a great check even though you have to be careful when you send it out because of Earthquake. Iron Head hits Aerodactyl pretty well and can flinch it if it resists.

    Not immediately considered as counters, Scizor, Mamoswine, Weavile and Metagrosss still work well to check Aerodactyl. Even though they are all slower than it and even though Stone Edge / Earthquake is a 2/3HKO (depends on the item) for everyone, they all have a priority move that kills Aerodactyl : Bullet Punch, Ice Shard. Metagross resists to Stone Edge and with its good defense can resist to Earthquake and cut Aerodactyl's head with Meteor Mash. Bulky Sweepers like Suicune, Celebi, Shaymin; Rotom-W are still able to handle it but less easily, especially the LO one.

    Rarely used but effective, the SubRoost Set does have the same checks and counters than the previous sets even though since time with Substitute and Leftovers, it doesn't lose its life and can ppstall Hippowdon, Swampert, etc...
  22. Jellicent

    Jellicent ~the spirit who loves spirits~
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    I put Zapdos up a few days ago. I just uploaded some changes to Lucario as well. Ojama: Lucario already had a well written, in-depth checks and counters section x.x I added in some information from yours to expand on it a bit more, however.

    A reminder to everyone, the goal here is not to simply rewrite the sections. We should be strengthening what is already there, and expanding where needed. If it's really brief, then use what's there as a base for what you want to write. If it looks pretty good, but is missing a thing or two, you can just post what it's lacking and I'll add it in.

    Sorry for any confusion on that >.>
  23. george182

    george182

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    Read all the posts and I think a few things could be added:

    For Suicune I think Calm Mind Jirachi really needs a mention, it's a very common check to Suicune. Jirachi must be wary of Roar, although it's currently uncommon.

    For Celebi I think Sub Roost Zapdos could deserve a mention, it's a very common pokemon that can force Celebi out with Toxic. Zapdos can also block Leech Seed and Thunderwave with the use of Substitute. However Zapdos will loose to Nasty Plot and Calm Mind sets if they have Psychic. I think Toxic spikes also deserve a mention, not just because it's vulnerable to them, but because they severely cripple the use of Recover and Leech Seed.

    For Aerodactyl I think Stealth Rocks really need a mention. For checking the Life Orb + Roost set they are very useful, while Aerodactyl has Roost it uses a very "hit'n run" style and Stealth Rocks are very useful against that style because it means Aerodactyl can't switch in as easily. Stealth Rocks will also increase the amount Aerodactyl uses Roost, which therefore decreases the amount it uses it's other moves making Aerodactyl much easier to play around, especially if your team is vulnerable to Taunt.

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