DPP Gengar (Substitute Special)

[Legacy Raider]

After discussing this with BlueKirby and Aldaron on IRC, we felt a separate Substitute set for Gengar that utilizes only special attacks was needed. I was quite surprised that this wasn't already on site, as it is one of Gengar's more effective sets, and there was a period of time where this set was so hugely popular you almost assumed Substitute whenever you saw Gengar. Scofield can finally rest in peace =).

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/gengar

[SET]
name: Substitute Special
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Shadow Ball
move 3: Focus Blast
move 4: Hidden Power Fire / Hypnosis
item: Leftovers
nature: Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Substitute is an excellent move on Gengar and serves a multitude of purposes. On something as frail and susceptible to Pursuit and priority attacks as Gengar, having an "extra life" beyond those meagre defenses is a great asset. It helps it deal with Tyranitar and Scizor, two of its greatest threats, by scouting their switch in with Substitute and then hitting them with the respective 4x super effective attack. Substitute also allows you to evade status, meaning you don't need to fear paralysis from Celebi, among others.</p>

<p>Shadow Ball and Focus Blast pair up to give Gengar the unresisted Ghost / Fighting coverage, and Focus Blast in particular is essential for dealing with any Tyranitar or Weavile that try to come in and Pursuit you. Hidden Power Fire in the last slot grants Gengar a quick OHKO on Scizor and Forretress, as well as giving it a way of hurting Skarmory without having to risk Focus Blast's poor accuracy. However, another very viable option for the last slot is Hypnosis. With its unreliable 60% accuracy, it is a risky move to try and use on a standard Gengar set. Substitute, however, effectively gives Gengar two shots at sleeping an opponent, and Hypnosis has a reasonable 84% chance to hit at least once out of two uses. The fact that it is so unexpected from Gengar anymore makes it all the more effective. Hidden Power Fire is useful but not essential, as Focus Blast hits Scizor plenty hard anyway, meaning Hypnosis is a useable option as well. Alternatively, you can play this Gengar just like the standard sweeper set but with Substitute, and so go with Thunderbolt in the last slot to get the super effective hit on bulky waters and Gyarados.</p>

<p>Even without a specific boosting item, Gengar gets the KOs it needs to. Focus Blast OHKOes 252 HP Tyranitar after taking Stealth Rock damage, and the bulkier 252 HP / 216 SpD Careful Tyranitar won't be OHKOed even by a Life Orb Focus Blast. However, this Gengar has the advantage of Substitute, usually giving it two shots against Tyranitar if Focus Blast's accuracy lets it down the first time. Leftovers provides a reliable source of healing for Gengar and helps offset the HP loss from Substitute. It also means that in a sandstorm, Gengar won't be losing obscenely large amounts of health to residual damage. There are other item choices for this set, such as Wide Lens to slightly increase the chances of Hypnosis and Focus Blast hitting, and Petaya Berry to turn Gengar into a deadly sweeper when at low health, but usually Leftovers is the best item to have. The advantages of using this Gengar over a similar set utilizing Substitute and Focus Punch are that it is not required to run Expert Belt and split its offensive EVs, and it can use Focus Blast to revenge kill threatening Pokemon such as Lucario and non-Scarf Heatran.</p>

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This set looks similar to the Substitute + Focus Punch set currently on site, but it has a different item, EV spread, and move. BlueKirby, Aldaron, and I all felt it was worth posting a separate edit for this, and I feel because of the effectiveness of this set, it should be placed higher than the Substitute + Focus Punch set. The problem with Sub + FP is that it is required to run Expert Belt to get the KO on Tyrantiar while Leftovers is a superior item for sub gar, and by splitting the EVs, Gengar's own special attacks hit with a lot less force. With FP, you also lose the substitute as you Focus Punch, while with Focus Blast you have a 70% chance of taking out Tyranitar while keeping your sub as well.

Substitute plus Focus Punch is not able to deal with Blissey nearly as effectively as the analysis would have you believe. Even if you do get one Focus Punch against it, Blissey can repeatedly continue to attack with Flamethrower or Ice Beam, not letting you get off another substitute for that crucial second FP to take it out. Without Leftovers healing you, every time you use a sub, you're not going to be getting that HP back. Blissey is arguably the only thing that Focus Punch is preferable for over Focus Blast - Snorlax can be slept and 3HKOed with Focus Blast if need be, and you still don't need to lose your substitute for it.

 

[MetaNite]

I've been using this set for awhile now and it is really good. Some things you could mention are Black Sludge + Trick. I've realized that a lot of times Blissey can't do anything to you since it has Seismic Toss and a status move, so it'll try to stall you out. If you trick it Black Sludge then you can actually win the stall war. I put that over HP Fire obviously.

Honestly, I'd just put Hypnosis in the set comments and add Thunderbolt for Togekiss, Gyarados, Vaporeon and those other annoying Flying / Water-types.

 

[Jimbo]

up to give it the unresisted Ghost

Even though it's kind of obvious, I don't think starting the paragraph off with "it" is the best way to go, use "Gengar."

having an 'extra life' beyond

This isn't a quote within a quote, so I think " " is what you should use. (Not 100% sure though).

Those are the only nitpicks I saw. This looks like a very solid set :)

 

[Veedrock]

Black Sludge over Leftovers. Same effect, makes people think twice about tricking.

Personal note but not necessary, revenging certain pokemon might be worth mention to help set it apart from SubPunch. Because of the lack of (negative) priority, Gengar can come in on something it can't necessarily scare out and have a shot to remove it. Lucario comes to mind in particular, and Heatran gets hit hard too.

Side note: I can't believe this didn't get in on the revamp. It was mentioned constantly. What gives?


EDIT: Bah. Forgive my ignorance on the black sludge issue (I never consider the trick back scenario).

 

[Legacy Raider]

Veedrock, it's standard on the smogon analyses to have Leftovers over Black Sludge on Poison types. Check Tentacruel's page, etc. Since Gengar isn't using Trick here, the only way running Black Sludge over Leftovers will be of any relevance is if the opponent Tricks it to themselves. This only gives them another weapon to use against another one of your Pokemon - they can Trick the Black Sludge back to any non-Poison Pokemon you have (Steels are hurt by BS).

I'll add the mention of being able to use Gengar as a revenge killer, that's a very valid point for it over the sub puncher.

EDIT: yoshi, I meant it as in between DP and DPP, but it's a good catch as you're not actually meant to refer to the Platinum changes in the analyses. Thanks.

 

[yoshi!]

Hypnosis' accuracy wasn't nerfed between RSE and DPP. =D

 

[twash]

Black Sludge isn't great Veedrock as it means opponents can actually use it against you (ie. taking the Black Sludge and Tricking it onto something that absolutely hates it). This is generally why Leftovers is listed on Poison-types over Black Sludge.

Substitute also allows you to evade status, and so you don't need to fear paralysis from Celebi, among other things.

"so you" should be changed to "therefore" in my opinion, sounding slightly less awkward.

However, another very viable option in the last slot is Hypnosis.

I'd probably change "in" to "for", so it's slightly less awkward.

Sandstorm should be sandstorm, no capitalization.

Good jobo. :)

 

[diinbong]

[SET]
name: Substitute Special
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Shadow Ball
move 3: Focus Blast
move 4: Hidden Power Fire / Hypnosis
item: Leftovers
nature: Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Substitute is an excellent move on Gengar and serves a multitude of purposes. On something as frail and susceptible to Pursuit and priority attacks as Gengar, having an "extra life" beyond those meagre defenses is a great asset. It helps it deal with Tyranitar and Scizor, two of its greatest threats, by scouting their switch in with Substitute and then hitting them with the respective 4x super effective attack. Substitute also allows you to evade status, meaning you don't need to fear paralysis from Celebi and Blissey (Blissey is really the main Pokemon you're avoiding status from, so if you feel like you only want to mention one Pokemon it would probably be the best idea, especially considering Celebi is beaten by Shadow Ball already), among others (removed "things" since it was unofficially decided in the grammar thread that Pokemon should be referred to as "people" [ex: "who">"which").</p>

...

...

thank you :)

edit: it honestly is quite difficult to find a Pokemon suitable to set up a Substitute on in an attempt to block status as Twash said, as most capable of dealing good damage to you would rather do so, while most reliant on crippling you with Thunder Wave wall you no matter what. In any case, feel free to choose any example you wish.

 

[CWW]

No mention of Wide Lens to boost Focus Blast and Hypnosis?

Another thing is that leftovers betrays the hold item, making it too obvious you're going to sub. Obviously it isn't much of a problem since this set doesn't rely on Focus Punch and it's mostly irrelevant against Choiced opponents. With Wide Lens however you can initially bluff making them believe it's Scarfed.

Lastly, I'm not sure the EV spread is optimal if opting for HP Fire. I suppose it's important to outspeed max Infernape and to tie with other Gengars with HP Fire. At least add a small mention that with HP Fire it'll be unable to tie with other Gengars without HP Fire.

 

[Legacy Raider]

Thanks for the grammar check diinbong, as always. I added in Blissey.

cww, I considered mentioning Wide Lens as well, but Leftovers is definitely the better option. Like I said in the set comments, not being damaged in sandstorm and effectively only losing 19% health per sub is worth more than the very slight accuracy raise that Wide Lens brings. If there is more support for Wide Lens I'll note it in the comments.

The EV spread is generic - speed tieing with other HP Fire Gengar and Latias can be important as well, and is more beneficial than the 2 HP points Gengar would gain by running a 12 HP / 252 SpA / 244 Spe spread (one that outspeeds +speed Infernape).

 

[Havak]

diinbong, I'm not sure if I like the mention of blocking Blissey's attempts at statusing you. I'd imagine it'd be pretty obvious that a Blissey switch-in on Gengar will either use Flamethrower, Ice Beam (or Thunderbolt), or Thunder Wave. I don't think wasting 25% HP just to find out which attack it's going to use is worth it (this is where Protect would be better). Even so, getting a Substitute up on Blissey, even if it's only using Seismic Toss, doesn't mean you're going to beat it sadly. You won't even have much of a chance at forcing it out if you lack Hypnosis and you need Focus Blast to hit consecutively, which is a big ask with a poor 8 PP.

But on the other hand, I don't think there is a great example of something that Gengar needs to Substitute on to block status _and_ be able to beat said Pokémon. I'm kind of happy with Celebi there even if it will hate Shadow Ball, since its lone attack is more often of the Grass-type. Blissey really is one of the few I can think of that would want to status Gengar instead of just straight out attack it, but IMO you still lose overall.

 

[Legacy Raider]

The reason I included Celebi was because if the opponent has no safe switchin for Gengar and wants to get something like Pursuit Scizor in unscathed, they might just try and let Celebi go and at least paralyze Gengar in the process, as Celebi at full health will generally survive even a LO Shadow Ball. By subbing up in its face, you not only foil the Thunder Wave, but you get a free hit on the incoming Pokemon, as Celebi isn't going to stick around to try to Grass Knot you. I myself have been annoyed several times when my ScarfGar has failed to KO Celebi with Shadow Ball (65-77%) and it has used Thunder Wave to ruin me. Using Substitute against Celebi is almost completely risk free and almost always beneficial to you, which is why I decided to put that in.

I'm going to keep Celebi and remove Blissey if that's alright.

 

[Scofield]

Thank you! And it's almost perfect too, you even have the best damage calcs about the chances for 2 hypnosis to hit. I'd be perfectly alright with this going on site as is. Let's see...

Subbing on celebi (if you can get it in safely on a recover or grass knot) is something I also do often, very little celebi have psychic and will often switch out or try to twave you.

Previously mentioned options were:
Trick + black sludge, which just gives you something to do against blissey and I feel is generally not worth it. On a similar note, I run black sludge without trick just to see if I can scare Blissey to switch out in fear of trick, but that doesn't work too well.

Wide Lens: This isn't a bad option with 2 very low accuracy moves, but leftovers is superior.

Expert Belt: I find this is only mentioned as an option since Life Orb is unviable here, but the entire point of this set is neutral coverage. I can't think of anything that expert belt would push from 1 to 2hko range, etc. Anything that was beaten in 1 or 2 hits would still be beaten in 1 or 2 hits afaik. Life Orb is a good option when you have to hit as hard as fast as possible, but when you can stick around for that second hit due to sub, I don't really see power as an issue. And telegraphing your sub, I don't really see that as a problem. Either you switch in after a knock out, in which case your lefties are not revealed. Or you switch in on a light attack or immunity (infernape's gk or cc). In this case, you're fast enough that you threaten said infernape (or anything else that gengar can switch in on) and they'd switch out in fear of shadow ball, if they attack to break your sub, shadow ball next turn (or sub again predicting a switch out to weavile or whatever).

Petaya berry: Don't think this was mentioned, but this is the last useable option that I can think of. A "meh" option as you really have to be careful not to activate it until late game and you're ready to sweep, but still an option if you're in need of something with a bit of power to clean up late game.

All of the options I mentioned are okay, but nothing I'd personally use, so if they weren't on the analysis, I really wouldn't mind.

Once again, thank you!

 

[MetaNite]

Thunderbolt. You need Thunderbolt... somewhere. You can't even OHKO Skarmory, a physical wall without it (HP Fire would require Expert Belt). Vaporeon and Suicune can otherwise force you out, two common Pokemon. Please put it in the set comments at the very least. I'm more worried about Vaporeon, Skarmory, Gyarados, and Togekiss than Scizor.

EDIT: Thank you =)

 

[Legacy Raider]

I was all for keeping the set concise and leaving these other options to the intelligent users' discretion, but I've gone and mentioned Thunderbolt, Wide Lens, and Petaya Berry in the set comments. Anything else that should be added?

 

[Legacy Raider]

Bumping this, are there any more comments? I think this is pretty much ready to go up unless anyone has more to add.

 

[Havak]

Okay, I just went ahead and uploaded this since I think it's finished (had a quick glance over it but couldn't see anything wrong).

Good work.