DPP Gliscor (Lead)

[muna]

I was looking for a lead that wasn't called Metagross and I came upon this lead. It has the ability to beat most common leads and is an effective lead itself. It has problems with Swampert, Trick Jirachi, and Mamoswine leads. Apart from those it has been very solid and has been defeating the opposing lead a good amount of the time. The only other problem that Gliscor has is that it often loses any effectiveness after the Stealth Rock is down and the opponent's lead is KO'd, but by that time, the job is done.

The analysis is rather short, but the set isn't really that complicated to start with and it gets the job done.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/gliscor

[SET]
name: Lead
move 1: Stealth Rock
move 2: Taunt
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: U-turn
item: Leftovers
ability: Sand Veil
nature: Impish
evs: 204 HP / 88 Atk / 216 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Gliscor has the movepool and stats to be an effective lead. It can usually set up Stealth Rock and often prevent the opponent from doing the same while being able to leave big dents in or possibly KO some of the common leads.</p>

<p>Stealth Rock is very useful as it discourages switching and weakens the opponent's team constantly. Taunt allows you to prevent slower leads from setting up Stealth Rock which can be vital to your team's success. Earthquake provides you with your strongest STAB move and can almost always 2HKO a standard Metagross. U-turn is useful if you are in a bad match-up, and it can severely damage Azelf, making it easy pickings for the likes of Scizor. Stone Edge is also an option as it is stronger and hits Aerodactyl significantly harder (even though it fails to OHKO) who completely shuts you down, but the accuracy is shaky and most leads are hit harder with Earthquake/U-turn than Earthquake/Stone Edge not to mention that U-turn also allows you to scout your opponent's switches.</p>

<p>The Speed EVs allow you to outspeed Adamant Lucario as well as Naive Heatran. This means that you always beat Lead Heatran and can be a reliable counter for Lucario later in the game. Meanwhile 88 Attack EVs guarantee that you 2HKO 252 / 0 Metagross as well as OHKO Lucario and Infernape. The rest of the EVs are tossed into HP to increase the overall bulk.</p>

 

[Veedrock]

You have 4 too many EVs. Other than that, no glaring problems except for the Dusknoir and Cresselia mention. Dusknoir is hit harder by Earthquake, and both aren't exactly common and seem to be really random mentions.

 

[locopoke]

I was looking for a lead that wasn't called Metagross and I came upon this lead. It has the ability to beat most common leads and is an effective lead itself. It has problems with Swampert, Trick Jirachi, and Mamoswine leads. Apart from those it has been very solid and has been defeating the opposing lead a good amount of the time. The only (removed "other")problem (removed "is")that it has is that it often loses any effectiveness after the Stealth Rock is down and the opponents lead is KO'd, but by that time, the job is done.

The analysis is rather short, but the set isn't really that complicated to start with and it gets the job done.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/gliscor

[SET]
name: Lead
move 1: Stealth Rock
move 2: Taunt
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Night Slash / Stone Edge
item: Leftovers
ability: Sand Veil
nature: Impish
evs: 252 HP / 92 Atk / 168 SDef

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Gliscor has the movepool and statistics to be an effective lead. It can almost always set up Stealth Rocks and usually prevent the opponent from doing the same while being able to leave big dents in or possibly KO some of the common leads. </p>

<p>Stealth Rock is almost necessary for any lead, and Taunt allows you to prevent slower leads from setting up Stealth Rock. Earthquake provides you with your strongest STAB move and can (remove "almost")always 2HKO a standard Metagross. Night Slash allows you to OHKO Azelf and would be your strongest move against Cresselia or Dusknoir, should you ever be forced to face them. Stone Edge is stronger overall, but the accuracy is shaky and most leads are hit harder with Earthquake/Night Slash than Earthquake/Stone Edge. </p>

<p>The EVs allow you to never be 2HKOd by an Azelf's Psychic while still maintaining the ability to 2HKO Metagross with Earthquake(remove "most of the time") and OHKO Azelf with Night Slash every time.</p>

And yeah, you have 4 too many EVs. That's it though.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

I think U-turn should be an option somewhere, since Gliscor is an incredibly useful pokemon to have around late game, I don't know if I would waste Gliscor's potential like this. Swampert and Gyarados leads completely screw this set over, so I'm kind of skeptical from the beginning.

I don't really see the point of using a bulky Gliscor without Roost, but I guess theorymon says that this thing gets SR up most of the time. I just think that this Gliscor is more of a liability than anything else, since so many other leads beat it.

 

[muna]

You have 4 too many EVs. Other than that, no glaring problems except for the Dusknoir and Cresselia mention. Dusknoir is hit harder by Earthquake, and both aren't exactly common and seem to be really random mentions.

That is true about Dusknoir and you shouldn't ever stay in against either of them so I just removed their mention as a whole.

And yeah, you have 4 too many EVs. That's it though.

I cannot remove phrases like "almost always" because then it would be implying that it is a KO 100% of the time and it is not (even though it is a huge majority of the time). I did make the rest of those fixes though. Thanks for that spell check. I really needed it.

I think U-turn should be an option somewhere, since Gliscor is an incredibly useful pokemon to have around late game, I don't know if I would waste Gliscor's potential like this. Swampert and Gyarados leads completely screw this set over, so I'm kind of skeptical from the beginning.

I don't really see the point of using a bulky Gliscor without Roost, but I guess theorymon says that this thing gets SR up most of the time. I just think that this Gliscor is more of a liability than anything else, since so many other leads beat it.

U-Turn should definitely be an option. It was actually the reason that I ever considered even writing up an analysis on it, but I just forgot about it. Thanks alot for reminding me. I just put it on over Night Slash as they both hit Azelf for super-effective damage which is the primary reason for the move in the first place with the added benefit of being able to scout the opponent's switch and switch yourself while doing some damage.

I admit that it does get completely destroyed by anything that carries an ice move, but it beats most of the most common leads. While Roost would be useful, it just doesn't work with this set. I need the two attack moves to avoid anything with levitate or that flies from getting off without a hit and Taunt/SR are both necessary for this set.

I like to think of it like a Bulkier, slower Aerodactyl.

 

[locopoke]

That is true about Dusknoir and you shouldn't ever stay in against either of them so I just removed their mention as a whole.



I cannot remove phrases like "almost always" because then it would be implying that it is a KO 100% of the time and it is not (even though it is a huge majority of the time). I did make the rest of those fixes though. Thanks for that spell check. I really needed it.



U-Turn should definitely be an option. It was actually the reason that I ever considered even writing up an analysis on it, but I just forgot about it. Thanks alot for reminding me. I just put it on over Night Slash as they both hit Azelf for super-effective damage which is the primary reason for the move in the first place with the added benefit of being able to scout the opponent's switch and switch yourself while doing some damage.

I admit that it does get completely destroyed by anything that carries an ice move, but it beats most of the most common leads. While Roost would be useful, it just doesn't work with this set. I need the two attack moves to avoid anything with levitate or that flies from getting off without a hit and Taunt/SR are both necessary for this set.

I like to think of it like a Bulkier, slower Aerodactyl.

The original phrase was "almost always 2HKO a standard Metagross". I was correcting it because it was inaccurate. It will always 2HKO a standard Metagross. "Almost" isn't needed in there.

 

[Veedrock]

It will not always 2HKO Standard Lead Metagross:

248 Atk vs 299 Def & 364 HP (100 Base Power): 180 - 212 (49.45% - 58.24%)

2HKO: 97.44% chance

 

[locopoke]

It will not always 2HKO Standard Lead Metagross:

248 Atk vs 299 Def & 364 HP (100 Base Power): 180 - 212 (49.45% - 58.24%)

2HKO: 97.44% chance

rofl, wow. well then, forget what I said I guess. But yeah, I doubt EQ will be 3HKOing Metagross' on a regular basis.

 

[Zepar]

<p>The EVs allow you to never be 2HKOd by an Azelf's Psychic while still maintaining the ability to 2HKO Metagross with Earthquake most of the time and 2HKO (Sash) Azelf with U-turn every time.</p>

What does this lead do against Heatran? Facing Metagross,You will not get SR if you kill it if it attacks during your taunt and then you will be 6-5.
This is a anti-lead set and it cannot take on Metagross if it knows the set, or it can just SR if they predict you attack or SR instead of taunting. Azelf is dying down and it loses to the most used leads, #2(Jirachi), and 50/50 vs 1#(Metagross), so this set can't be too viable now.

Edit:
248 Atk vs 296 Def & 364 HP (100 Base Power): 182 - 216 (50.00% - 59.34%), Veedrock, most out there are 252/252/6Speed
spreads.
@Locopoke:Leftovers
@Diingbong: Stats is short hand for statistics.
@diingbong (again): It is U-turn vs Stone edge not EQ.

 

[Fuzznip]

Some problems:

[SET]
name: Lead
move 1: Stealth Rock
move 2: Taunt
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: U-Turn / Stone Edge
item: Leftovers
ability: Sand Veil
nature: Impish
evs: 252 HP / 88 Atk / 168 SDef

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Gliscor has the movepool and statistics to be an effective lead. It can usually set up Stealth Rock(removed the "s") and often prevent the opposing lead from doing the same while being able to leave big dents in or possibly KO some of the common leads.</p>

<p> Stealth Rock is almost necessary for any lead, and Taunt allows you to prevent slower leads from setting up on you (people don't only use Stealth Rock). Earthquake provides you with your strongest STAB move and can almost always 2HKO the standard Metagross. U-Turn is useful if you are in a bad match-up, and it can also OHKO Azelf (or in most cases, leave it at 1 HP due to the common Focus Sash. (removed space)Stone Edge is stronger overall (explain why it's stronger overall), but the accuracy is shaky and most leads are hit harder with Earthquake/U-Turn than Earthquake/Stone Edge.</p>

<p>The EVs allow you to never be 2HKOd by an Azelf's Psychic, while still maintaining the ability to 2HKO Metagross with Earthquake most of the time and OHKO Azelf with Night Slash (don't you mean U-turn? Also, you don't need to say this because you already did) every time.</p>

I'm not too sure about this set though.

 

[diinbong]

It's actually SpD.

And "most of the time" isn't "on a regular basis", Locopoke.

[SET]
name: Lead
move 1: Stealth Rock
move 2: Taunt
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: U-Turn / Stone Edge
item: Leftovers
ability: Sand Veil
nature: Impish
evs: 252 HP / 88 Atk / 168 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Gliscor has the movepool and statistics* to be an effective lead. It can usually set up Stealth Rock(removed "s") and often prevent the opponent from doing the same while being able to leave big dents in (or possibly KO) some of the common leads.</p>

*what exactly do you mean when you say this? its usage statistics?

<p>(no space)Stealth Rock is almost necessary for any lead, and Taunt allows you to prevent slower leads from setting up Stealth Rock. Earthquake provides you with your strongest STAB move and can almost always 2HKO a standard Metagross. U-turn is useful if you are in a bad match-up, and it can also OHKO Azelf (or in most cases, leave it at 1 HP due to Focus Sash). Stone Edge is stronger overall*, but the accuracy is shaky and most leads are hit harder with Earthquake/U-Turn than Earthquake/Stone Edge.</p>

*factoring in STAB, Earthquake is stronger

<p>The EVs allow you to never be 2HKOd by an Azelf's Psychic while still maintain(removed "ing") the ability to 2HKO Metagross with Earthquake most of the time and always OHKO Azelf with Night Slash (removed "every time").</p>

Most of the changes are non-subjective.

edit: sorry I guess I kinda am just a bandwagoner. but still; implement the changes!

 

[Veedrock]

Facing Metagross,You will not get SR if you kill it if it attacks during your taunt and then you will be 6-5.

Gliscor is faster, and not even 2HKO'd by Meteor Mash (assuming no attack raise). Plenty of time for SR.

Azelf is dying down and it loses to the most used leads, #2(Jirachi), and 50/50 vs 1#(Metagross), so this set can't be too viable now.

That doesn't mean it's not there.

Edit:
248 Atk vs 296 Def & 364 HP (100 Base Power): 182 - 216 (50.00% - 59.34%), Veedrock, most out there are 252/252/6Speed

No, Lead Metagross has 12 defense points. Check the analysis.

 

[Great Sage]

and OHKO Azelf with Night Slash every time.</p>

First, change this to U-turn since you changed the set. Second, where on earth did you get that it OHKOs Azelf? A 70 base power super effective move from this Gliscor does 48.8-57.3% to minimally defensive Azelf.

 

[Zepar]

Gliscor is faster, and not even 2HKO'd by Meteor Mash (assuming no attack raise). Plenty of time for SR.

It takes one turn for taunt, and then Gliscor can A. Set up SR or B. Attack and kill it and be revenged from some random Mamoswine or Scizor.


That doesn't mean it's not there.

That is like saying Vaporeon is a viable Salamece counter, even though it is OHKO'd by a DD'd Life orbed Outrage.



No, Lead Metagross has 12 defense points. Check the analysis.
Stats>Analysis.

 

[diinbong]

Paranoid, Azelf's usability is completely separate from its amount of use.

Show me stats that say lead Metagross don't run 12 Def EVs.

edit: Paranoid, I assume these stats are accounting for all Metagross, and not just those leading?

 

[Zepar]

| Metagross | HP EV | Max | 37.1 |
| Metagross | HP EV | None | 23.4 |
| Metagross | HP EV | Very High (200+) | 13.5 |
| Metagross | HP EV | Other (4) | < 9.2 |
| Metagross | Defense EV | None | 73.3 |

2 months ago stats.

 

[Veedrock]

Those statistics reflect every Metagross. 45% of Metagross usages were leads. Nearly 30% ran defense. Also considering that the revamp wasn't put on site until the middle of the month, I'd say the 12 defense points are pretty relevant and are standard.

And you prove my point too; saying it KOs everytime is bullshit because most (~2/3 if you want to run off those numbers) run defense.

 

[MetaNite]

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/gliscor

[SET]
name: Lead
move 1: Stealth Rock
move 2: Taunt
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: U-Turn / Stone Edge
item: Leftovers
ability: Sand Veil
nature: Impish
evs: 252 HP / 88 Atk / 168 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Gliscor has the movepool and stats to be an effective lead. It can usually set up Stealth Rocks and often prevent the opponent from doing the same while being able to KO some of the common leads.</p>

<p> Stealth Rock is almost necessary for any lead(this is definately not true, many anti-leads (which are still leading) don't have the move), and Taunt allows you to prevent slower leads from setting up Stealth Rock. Earthquake provides you with your strongest STAB move and can almost always 2HKO a standard Metagross. U-Turn is useful if you are in a bad match-up, and it can also severely damage Azelf and break Focus Sashes. Stone Edge is stronger overall, but the accuracy is shaky and most leads are hit harder with Earthquake/U-Turn than Earthquake/Stone Edge.</p>

<p>The EVs allow you to never be 2HKOd by an Azelf's Psychic while still maintaining the ability to 2HKO Metagross with Earthquake most of the time and (OHKO Azelf with Night Slash every time(get rid of this because Azelf will have a Focus Sash, U-turn away, or kill you with Ice Punch and there's no mention of Night Slash anywhere else).</p>

To be honest, I don't think every viable lead should have a set specifically meant to lead, especially since over time the common leads can change drastically. I think that a sentence should be added to the EV section of Gliscor, saying:

"168 SpD EVs lets you not be 2HKOed by an Azelf's Psychic, which can come in handy while leading. 88 Atk EVs allows you to almost always 2HKO 252 HP Metagross."

What more do you need? It is obvious that Gliscor can be used as a lead, any Pokemon can. Every Pokemon with Stealth Rock and / or a Fire and Ground attack to hit Metagross should not have its own set to lead, especially since Gliscor is generally using Stealth Rock and a supportive EV spread anyway (unlike Azelf, Metagross, Infernape, the real leads, etc.).

EDIT: The most common Sashers though are Azelf and Aerodactyl, who both are immune to Earthquake :p

 

[junior]

[SET]
name: Lead
move 1: Stealth Rock
move 2: Roost???? / Taunt
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: U-Turn / Stone Edge
item: Leftovers
ability: Sand Veil
nature: Impish
evs: 252 HP / 88 Atk / 168 SpD

I think Roost deserves a mention somewhere. Gliscor isn't what I'd classify as a suicide lead, and not to mention it could sponge up some attacks too - pre-Platinum sees Gliscor as a wall.

If any move has to go for Roost, I highly suggest Taunt as I agree with you about the two attacks. Without any speed EVs, majority opposing lead Pokemon outspeeds it and/or can KOs Gliscor. Otherwise just slash Roost with it.

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Gliscor has the movepool and statistics to be an effective lead. It can usually set up Stealth Rock while preventing opposing leads from doing the same. Gliscor also has the ability to create dents or, in some cases, OHKO the common leads.</p>

I don't really like the last sentence; it doesn't flow too well with the multiple conjunction words.

<p>Stealth Rock is almost necessary for any lead, and Taunt allows you to prevent slower leads from setting up Stealth Rock. Earthquake provides you with a reliable STAB move and can almost always 2HKO a standard Metagross. U-Turn is beneficial if you are in a disadvantaged situation, and should be noted for its ability to OHKO Azelf. In comparison to U-Turn, Stone Edge generally has a higher base Attack but the accuracy is shaky and most leads are hit harder with Earthquake/U-Turn than Earthquake/Stone Edge.</p>

The underlined part is something I find pointless. You already mentioned it in the introduction. Instead, I would elaborate on Stealth Rock's usefulness (breaking Focus Sashes, limits the amount of x Pokemon from switching in etc.).

I honestly don't think it is necessary to mention Focus Sash on Azelf, as it is pretty much given. I also don't like MetaNite's edit on this sentence as Earthquake also breaks Sashes for non-Flyers and non-Levitators lol.

<p>The EVs allow you to take an Azelf's Psychic, while still giving you the chance to 2HKO Metagross with Earthquake.</p>

Why is Night Slash even mentioned here? lol.

I went through this swiftly so it's not perfect.

 

[muna]

I have made almost all of the above corrections to the set. If I am missing anything, please tell me.

First, change this to U-turn since you changed the set. Second, where on earth did you get that it OHKOs Azelf? A 70 base power super effective move from this Gliscor does 48.8-57.3% to minimally defensive Azelf.

You are completely right. I just assumed that if it could 2HKO Metagross, that it should be able to 2HKO Azelf. I completely forgot that it was a 150 BP move vs a 70 BP move. I will fix that right away.

I think Roost deserves a mention somewhere. Gliscor isn't what I'd classify as a suicide lead, and not to mention it could sponge up some attacks too - pre-Platinum sees Gliscor as a wall.

If any move has to go for Roost, I highly suggest Taunt as I agree with you about the two attacks. Without any speed EVs, majority opposing lead Pokemon outspeeds it and/or can KOs Gliscor. Otherwise just slash Roost with it.

Taunt is part of what makes Gliscor an effective lead. Without it, Metagross and the slower leads will be setting up SR every game. Roost over Taunt would just make it the defensive set and the purpose of this is not to wall defensively.

 

[Legacy Raider]

I've been testing with a Gliscor lead, and I think an EV spread of 204 HP / 88 Atk / 216 Spe works better than the one you have up. With the 216 Spe EVs, you outspeed Adamant Lucario and Naive Heatran, which is very helpful in both the lead scenario and later on in the game. By outspeeding Lucario, it means Gliscor can still serve as an effective counter for it later on in the game (58.6% of Lucario ran Adamant last month as compared to the 22.3% Jolly ones) and take it out with Earthquake. In the leadoff situation, you also want to outspeed Heatran if you can - it deals an average of 79% with Fire Blast, so if it survives your first Earthquake with a Shuca Berry you want to be able to hit it again before it can Fire Blast you again. I find the extra Speed far preferable to surviving two Psychics from something you will be U-turning out of anyway as it sets up SR.

The 88 Atk EVs guarantee the 2HKO on 252/0 Metagross with Earthquake, as well as OHKOs on Lucario and Infernape, and the remainder are placed in HP. I've also tested both, and have found that U-turn is almost definitely preferable to Stone Edge. Stone Edge isn't really worth much when you're hitting Zapdos for 38.5% max. Stone Edge won't even OHKO Aerodactyl (84.3% max) so there is really little use in running it, as even if Aero does stay in, you only have a 64% chance of connecting with two Stone Edges in a row. Better to be able to break its sash with U-turn, as well as Azelf's while halving its health, and scouting in addition. Gliscor also makes a pretty good switchin into Celebi later on in the game, coming in on a Thunder Wave then outspeeding and threatening it out with U-turn, either gaining an advantageous switch or giving another of your Pokemon a free turn as Celebi Recovers.

So my suggestion is change the set to:

[SET]
name: Lead
move 1: Stealth Rock
move 2: Taunt
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: U-Turn
item: Leftovers
ability: Sand Veil
nature: Impish
evs: 204 HP / 88 Atk / 216 Spe

and perhaps talk about Stone Edge in the set comments if you have to, because there is little real reason to run it here. It's a cool set though, I'll give you that :). I was skeptical at first, but it functions very well against a lot of the other common leads.

EDIT: itt, Twash abuses his powah! :P

 

[twash]

I edited in a couple of small things, such as U-Turn to U-turn. I expect you don't mind as I didn't change anything major at all.

I agree with the sentiment of running 216 Speed. Gliscor is bulky enough to be used late-game too, where the extra Speed would become very valuable. Outspeeding lead Heatran is excellent too; they faint to two Earthquakes (courtesy of Shuca Berry), so they have an ultimatum: attack and get no Stealth Rock, or get Stealth Rock and faint while doing absolutely no damage to Gliscor.

I would still mention Stone Edge as Legacy Raider said, it can be useful on Aerodactyl leads.

 

[muna]

Thank you for the new spread. I made the suggested change to the EV spread and changed the last paragraph to match it. I never even considered putting too many EVs into speed. I also removed Stone Edge from the set, but added a few more details about it in the set comments. As always, I am open to any suggestions that make this set better.

 

[Havak]

Added, moving to Peer Edit Archive.