DPP Latias (Full OU Revamp)

[E.A.]

A "gimmick" that completely undermines a number of her counters. Flame Orb Cressy is the most useful Cressy set I've seen and I'm quite eager to play with Flame Orb Latias. With Roost/Recover Latias would not be burdened by three turns of Rest unlike Cresselia.

I've had a lot of experience with Flame Orb Cressy and she's a beast, one can only wonder how Latias will do.

When the Flame Orb is gone she can act as a good status absorber being able to Psycho Shift things right back at the opponent. Also... Flame Orb is really the only item that can pretty much keep all Trickers in check. If they Trick it, they get burned and do less damage to you if they are physical based. After all is said and done if you have Trick and are done with Psycho Shift you can Trick it to a Blissey, Celebi or another one of their walls to make life difficult for them. Since Latias is fast she will be able to outrun things like non Scarfed Mence and hit them before they do anything. Not to mention if you have to switch something on Breloom and your Psycho Shifter is already burned you can send that in. The only thing that'll really give you problems whilst Psycho Shifting is Heracross, but still it doesn't like taking 12.5% per turn and if you've got decent prediction you'll do fine. It seems very gimmicky on paper, but its a solid startegy that will provide long term benefits in battle. PS Cressy has never failed to qualify me for the suspect qualifications, I can't wait to use PS Latias in Standard.

Latias needs to be careful though since she is not as bulky as Cresselia she might not be able to survive as long spreading the burns around. In such an offensive metagame Bold might be needed. I mean you want to survive things like Ttar's CBed Crunch after you burn it.

Alright, here's why it's a gimmick. Even though it works, it has some serious issues with today's metagame.

1) Clerics. Now matter how many times you screw over a Physical Sweeper, a single move from Blissey will undo that. In fact, 1 out of every 3 Blisseys have Aromatherapy, as well 25% of all Articunos have Heal Bell, 11% of all Celebis, 42% of all Shaymins, etc, etc, etc.

2) The Blaring Obvious Notice: "Pokemon X has been burned!" Any good trainer that realizes this will think one of two things: Send out my Blissey and stall it forever with Natural Cure, Thunder Wave, Ice Beam, or Seismic Toss, OR send in a a Special Sweeper to kick Latias' @$$.

3) The Non-Existant Element of Surprise. Okay, maybe they weren't prepared of it. But now that they see this, their strategy is going to change drastically. They will realize that status move should be used with caution, and will know what to do once they see Latias again. The surprise facter is gone after the first use. A good Pokemon can maintain the element of surprise throughout the battle. For example, using Crunch on DD Mix-tar until a slot opens for a late-game sweep.

4) What are the advantages? WoW does this 100 times better. It's straight forward. Not need to burn yourself, lose some Attack Prowess and lose HP, and you don't need to give up the Leftovers.

On top of that, there are NO adavantages of this set over Cresselia. Okay, maybe it has access to Surf and superior Speed, but apart from that, none. In fact, Latias has even less bulk, so this set is a total gimmick. OO.

 

[TAY]

First of all, sorry I haven't updated yet. Some stuff came up and I probably won't post until late tonight (like midnight PST).

Second, I am going to be keeping the Psycho Shift set for now. This analysis will obviously not be done before the OU ladder is updated, and then I can try it myself and come to a conclusion. Obviously I encourage everyone else to do the same.

 

[6A9 Ace Matador]

Alright, here's why it's a gimmick. Even though it works, it has some serious issues with today's metagame.

1) Clerics. Now matter how many times you screw over a Physical Sweeper, a single move from Blissey will undo that. In fact, 1 out of every 3 Blisseys have Aromatherapy, as well 25% of all Articunos have Heal Bell, 11% of all Celebis, 42% of all Shaymins, etc, etc, etc.

Who uses any of those but blissey and celebi? and bliss only has aroma on stall teams. Another thing, cleric celebi is uncommon.

2) The Blaring Obvious Notice: "Pokemon X has been burned!" Any good trainer that realizes this will think one of two things: Send out my Blissey and stall it forever with Natural Cure, Thunder Wave, Ice Beam, or Seismic Toss, OR send in a a Special Sweeper to kick Latias' @$$.

Which is where Latias' special defense and recover comes in =/ Not only that, but one pokemon can't be expected to handle a whole team, so here's an idea, BAM switch! since they won't dare bring in a pursuiter (ruling out herra, who won't come in because of its fear of psychic, and stab draco meteor)

3) The Non-Existant Element of Surprise. Okay, maybe they weren't prepared of it. But now that they see this, their strategy is going to change drastically. They will realize that status move should be used with caution, and will know what to do once they see Latias again. The surprise facter is gone after the first use. A good Pokemon can maintain the element of surprise throughout the battle. For example, using Crunch on DD Mix-tar until a slot opens for a late-game sweep.

No matter, a pokemon's been crippled, and once its dead, the opponent has no viable status absorber yet again.

4) What are the advantages? WoW does this 100 times better. It's straight forward. Not need to burn yourself, lose some Attack Prowess and lose HP, and you don't need to give up the Leftovers.

Latias gets WoW? Wow, news to me! even then, tricking a flame orb =/

On top of that, there are NO adavantages of this set over Cresselia. Okay, maybe it has access to Surf and superior Speed, but apart from that, none. In fact, Latias has even less bulk, so this set is a total gimmick. OO.

Nah, the speed makes it less pursuit bait actually. Not only that, cress dun' get recover.

 

[Articanus]

Calm Mind can be an option on the Psycho-Shifter

 

[Kir]

Alright, here's why it's a gimmick. Even though it works, it has some serious issues with today's metagame.

1) Clerics. Now matter how many times you screw over a Physical Sweeper, a single move from Blissey will undo that. In fact, 1 out of every 3 Blisseys have Aromatherapy, as well 25% of all Articunos have Heal Bell, 11% of all Celebis, 42% of all Shaymins, etc, etc, etc.

2) The Blaring Obvious Notice: "Pokemon X has been burned!" Any good trainer that realizes this will think one of two things: Send out my Blissey and stall it forever with Natural Cure, Thunder Wave, Ice Beam, or Seismic Toss, OR send in a a Special Sweeper to kick Latias' @$$.

3) The Non-Existant Element of Surprise. Okay, maybe they weren't prepared of it. But now that they see this, their strategy is going to change drastically. They will realize that status move should be used with caution, and will know what to do once they see Latias again. The surprise facter is gone after the first use. A good Pokemon can maintain the element of surprise throughout the battle. For example, using Crunch on DD Mix-tar until a slot opens for a late-game sweep.

4) What are the advantages? WoW does this 100 times better. It's straight forward. Not need to burn yourself, lose some Attack Prowess and lose HP, and you don't need to give up the Leftovers.

On top of that, there are NO adavantages of this set over Cresselia. Okay, maybe it has access to Surf and superior Speed, but apart from that, none. In fact, Latias has even less bulk, so this set is a total gimmick. OO.

You have obviously never used the set.

Regarding Clerics... Look through the RMT forum. There are two clerics in the first two pages (and one of them is on such a poor team it shouldn't even count, but thats beside the point). Also, it is rather simple to put Blissey/Celebi in a lose/lose situation with the help of a Pursuiter like Weavile. They can either stay in and do nothing to you as burn wears them down, or they can switch out and be KOed.

Regarding the "notice" thing... If Latias is switched in after one of her teammates has been KOed, only Stealth Rock damage will show up until the end of that turn. Unlike Cresselia, the lack of Leftovers doesn't tell the opponent much of anything. In this case, Trick is needed in order for the set to work, which is why I feel it should definitely be a primary option.

Regarding the element of surprise... Switch Latias in on Heatran, or any of the other ridiculously common fire attacks. Then, it is in fact a complete surprise. Also, sometimes the lack of surprise doesnt matter. The turn you use Psycho Shift you do not lose HP from burn. Then it is the opponents decision who they want crippled, and given Latias' speed, she can simply come back in and do it again! It is a 100% accurate burn move.

Regarding the advantages thing... I think I have touched on those already. Also, remember that this blocks you from annoying stuff like Thunder Wave and Toxic. Oddly enough, you named a few of the advantages yourself (i.e. speed), but there are many more that I hope this post can clarify.

 

[Stathakis]

I'm really too lazy to read anybody's arguments about psycho shift, and I've never even played a cresselia or latias in my whole entire pokemon career, but I'll ad this tidbit: As an offensive player, when I see a cresselia get burned I breathe a sigh of relief as burn is sooo much easier to handle than whatever combination of para/cm/reflect. There is zero surprise to the cressy set, he's likely only crippling one pokemon in comparison to my whole team (reflect), I can bring in assorted special attackers such as gengars and heatrans without fear of thunderwave, etc etc.

I don't see how latias would be much different =/

but that's just from the opponent's point of view. Like I said I've never played cress, latias, or any sort of flameshifting set in my entire life.

 

[TeaBag]

148 HP / 108 SpA / 252 Spe etc.

148 HP / 184 SpA / 176 Spe etc.

I support these EV spreads and can attest to their success based on my experiences on the ladder for the very reasons LR stated.

Regarding the defensive Calm Mind set, I believe Psycho Shift should be slashed along with Refresh (and perhaps even Safeguard) to not only bounce Blissey's Toxic right back at her, but potentially switch into Will-O-Wisp, etc. and bounce it back at a Metagross, Weavile, etc. switching in. Psycho Shift can also outstall Heal Bell / Aromatherapy Bliss because Psycho Shift has more PP.

In short, Psycho Shift is not far from useless -- it's just not worth wasting your item and potential move slots for Flame Orb, etc.

 

[TAY]

Ugh sorry for the late start; my programming assignment took way too long yesterday and I was not able to start. However, I have now started writing and should be finished by tonight (I do have classes though =P ). Maybe I'll post the write-ups as I finish them to get comments out there early.

My position regarding the Psycho Shift set is the same as it was before: I am going to write the analysis, and I will wait to test it out on the OU ladder. If it turns out to be garbage I will remove it from the analysis; else I will obviously keep it. So no extra work for you guys, and you can stop theorymon-ing this since I'm going to base the decision on actual battle experience (not just from me; I would appreciate everyone trying it out). Also I agree with MTI's earlier post that it would need to be bold.

EDIT: Comments for Defensive Calm mind are up. A bit lengthy.

 

[MetaNite]

How about saying "this is probably Latias most effective set" , instead of just saying it's the best.

Also, Scizor may not remain at the top of the ladder forever, so I don't think you should say that in the comments. You could say how it hits every Pokemon bar Heatran neutrally.

In the second to last paragraph, I'd say "so you can put up a Reflect" , not just "with Reflect" because that doesn't make much sense. I don't see any notable grammer or spelling problems. Coming along.

 

[TAY]

How about saying "this is probably Latias most effective set" , instead of just saying it's the best.

Done, essentially.

Also, Scizor may not remain at the top of the ladder forever, so I don't think you should say that in the comments. You could say how it hits every Pokemon bar Heatran neutrally.

If this turns out to be the case then it won't be too hard to make changes.

In the second to last paragraph, I'd say "so you can put up a Reflect" , not just "with Reflect" because that doesn't make much sense. I don't see any notable grammer or spelling problems. Coming along.

I wrote, "with reflect up" which makes perfect sense since Reflect is a field effect.


Also the Specs write-up is in.

 

[Legacy Raider]

[Choice Specs]

Paired with a Dragon-type attack, Surf hits everything in OU besides Empoleon for at least neutral damage, and that neutral damage is enough to 2HKO any of the Steel-types which resist Latias’ STAB Dragon attacks, excepting Bronzong.

No need to caps there.

If you want a guaranteed 2HKO on Bronzong, as well as OHKOs on Scizor and Forretress, then you can use Hidden Power Fire, but Latias will lose a Speed point and will become vulnerable to both Heatran and Tyranitar.

'OHKOes' is the verb form - "Latias OHKOes Blissey"
'OHKOs' is the plural noun - "Latias gets OHKOs on Blissey and Snorlax"

Can I just say, I really like your writeups =). Nice prose lol.

 

[MetaNite]

I wrote, "with reflect up" which makes perfect sense since Reflect is a field effect.


Also the Specs write-up is in.

Actually it just says "With Reflect" which since Reflect doesn't affect your speed, I don't see a point to have that there seeing as you are talking about outpacing Metagross, etc.

[SET]
name: Choice Specs
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Surf
move 3: Grass Knot / Hidden Power Fire
move 4: Trick / Dragon Pulse / Recover
item: Choice Specs
nature: Modest / Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpAtk / 252 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]

<p>With Choice Specs Salamence being a huge pain with 110 Special Attack and 100 Speed, it only makes sense that Latias would be even more annoying with 10 more base Speed points and greatly improved defenses. Draco Meteor will put a giant dent in nearly everything; even Heatran, which usually runs Naïve to combat Outrage, will take at least 50% even if Latias is Timid. Paired with a Dragon-type attack, Surf hits everything in OU besides Empoleon and Shedninja for at least neutral damage, and that neutral damage is enough to 2HKO any of the Steel-types which resist Latias’ STAB Dragon attacks, barring Bronzong.</p>

<p>Grass Knot is recommended over Hidden Power Fire in order to score a 2HKO on Tyranitar, which will often run quite a bit of Special Defense in order to deal with Latias, and also to OHKO Swampert, which can take at least one hit from any of Latias’ other attacksand strike back with Ice Beam (much more common than Ice Punch) or Avalanche. If you want a guaranteed 2HKO on Bronzong, as well as OHKOs on Scizor and Forretress, then you can use Hidden Power Fire, but Latias will lose a Speed point and will become vulnerable to both Heatran and Tyranitar.</p>

<p>Trick allows Latias to deal with Blissey and Snorlax, both of which have proven to be major problems for Choice Specs Salamence and it is also a great move for dealing with troublesome Steel-types. However, if your team is prepared to deal with those threats, then Latias has some other powerful options. Dragon Pulse is a page right out of Specs Salamence’s book, allowing Latias to sweep late game once its counters have been weakened by Draco Meteor. Recover is a nice little trick against players who like to switch around to weaken Latias with Sandstorm or status, and is generally useful for giving Latias a sort of “second wind.”</p>

<p>Whether you choose Modest or Timid is really a matter of what you need Latias to do for your team. Modest makes it a much better wall breaker, since 10% damage (10%? If this is the difference between Modest and Timid, it should probably be explained) coming from 110 base Special Attack and a 140 base power attack with STAB actually winds up being quite a bit. If you need Latias to perform as more of (delete this) a late game sweeper, then Timid is the better choice, as it will allow Latias to outspeed most things that try to revenge kill it.</p>

Some corrections and thoughts.

 

[TAY]

Ack MetaNite I was looking at the wrong place; you were correct in telling me to change the phrasing of the sentence containing "with reflect." It has been fixed.

However...

Shedinja is not OU.

During the suspect test quite a few people gave Swampert some SpDef and Ice Punch to beat Latias. Honestly I would say it was more common than the standard Ice Beam set, though if more people disagree with me then obviously I will change it.

 

[RaikouLover]

Clearly my suggestions have fallen on deaf ears:

Why would you even bother with Grass Knot on Choice Specs? unSTABed Grass Knot has got to be the worst attack to ever use on a Choice user, considering its resisted by 22 OU Pokemon, and has varying base power, as a good portion of the neutral hit pokemon (Azelf, Jolteon, etc.) don't give a shit about it either. I see no reason to use this, considering that a Max HP Tyranitar takes some 46% minimum from a Timid Choice Specs Surf. If your opponent wants to use Careful Tar and max out its defense, you do still have a guarenteed 3HKO on the dino and more often then not they will think your switching. Not to play theorymon, but the only reason someone would actually Max Special Defense on Choice Band Tyranitar and switch to Careful would be to counter Latias, and if you do elect to stay in you take a maximum 80% from Pursuit, meaning you win that battle anyway.

Theres the same gripe about Hidden Power Fire, as again it is a dangerous option to be locked into an unSTABed base 70 Fire Attack as opposed to a 95 Base Power Water attack, considering Water is the better attack type as far as neutrality is concerned. If you really want to OHKO Scizor THAT Bad, just consider that you can do 48% minimum to Max HP Scizor with Surf and even more with Draco Meteor (which will often 2HKO as well), meaning Scizor won't even try to Pursuit you at that point or it dies.

So with all that being said, the third slot should undoubtedly be a STABed sweeping option in either Dragon Pulse or Psychic. Since I'm preaching neutrality, Dragon Pulse gets the win, as lategame sweeping is one of the perks of Choice Specs, correct? Trick / Recover works well in the last slot for obvious reasons.

Playing the Hidden Power / Grass Knot game isn't the way to go, especially with a Pokemon that already has awesome type coverage in two moves, and access to Trick, and a hit and run move such as Draco Meteor. For the sake of preaching the consistent damage argument, you really should never even have to think when using SpecsLatias, it should be a simple (pick: Dragon Move or Water Move? I saw Tyranitar earlier, I think I may want to Water).

 

[TAY]

OK RL you win I'm taking off Grass Knot. I suppose there isn't really a need to crush TTar, though OHKOing the Waters that can hurt you with Ice Beam can be handy. I'll mention it in set comments.

Regarding your "DracoShift" set, I am not going to write the set comments now, as I have never seen it before and have no idea what it is supposed to do (or what it actually does do). Obviously I will test it out once the ladder is up to see how it works but until then I don't feel comfortable adding it because "me and panamaxis used it".


Also the Utility set comments have been added.


EDIT: "Will not Appreciate" is different from "OHKOed" when they are launching super effective attacks back

EDIT II: Dual Screen analysis is up.
EDIT III: Psycho Shift analysis up. I may or may not do the last one (offensive CM) today.

 

[RaikouLover]

ok. I may write it up at a later time if anyone else uses it when the ladder is implemented.

I suppose there isn't really a need to crush TTar, though OHKOing the Waters that can hurt you with Ice Beam can be handy.

Lol, like Swampert, Vaporeon, and Suicune will appreciate Specs Meteor? :-P

 

[iKitsune]

I think something about latias filling the gap on special walling. In that it can take on almost all cmers and beat them with roar enabling it to deal with the calm minders ie celebi and jirachi blissey is helpless against. This allows latias to be solid choice in teams that have a problem with this form of special sweeper like many stall teams which rely on blissey. Latias can also to a certain extent take the place of perish song celebi on these teams.
What do you think of this amendment.

 

[Lord Blood]

name: Choice Specs
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Surf
move 3: Dragon Pulse
move 4: Trick / Recover
item: Choice Specs
nature: Modest / Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpAtk / 252 Spe

I have some suggestions for this set. You could use HP Fighting for higher damage on Tyranitar, and HP Ground for higher damage on Heatran. I would suggest that if using Latias for early game, use Draco Meteor - Surf - Psychic - HP of choice. If using for late game, switch to Dragon Pulse over Draco Meteor. Just my two cents.

 

[Bass]

name: Choice Specs
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Surf
move 3: Dragon Pulse
move 4: Trick / Recover
item: Choice Specs
nature: Modest / Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpAtk / 252 Spe

I have some suggestions for this set. You could use HP Fighting for higher damage on Tyranitar, and HP Ground for higher damage on Heatran. I would suggest that if using Latias for early game, use Draco Meteor - Surf - Psychic - HP of choice. If using for late game, switch to Dragon Pulse over Draco Meteor. Just my two cents.

There is really no reason to run Hidden Power Fighting or Hidden Power Ground on the Choice Specs set. Surf already does adequate damage against most Tyranitar and Heatran and offers good enough coverage, and they are also rather useless moves in most other situations. That, and Hidden Power Fighting costs you 1 Speed IV (Which TAY has already mentioned several times), so it isn't a good option for the Specs set. Psychic, while having STAB, doesn't really help you in terms of type coverage as Steel being the only type to resist Dragon means that most of Latias's switch-ins will resist Psychic as well. That, and being stuck on Psychic can be suicidal if Tyranitar attempts to switch in.

Also, I am not sure if you missed Jimbo's post, but you need to change "SpAtk" to just "SpA" for each of the sets. Content wise though, I think you have covered everything well so far.

 

[panamaxis]

Why isn't substitute an option in the last slot on the first set? Prevents crits and avoids status (although be careful not to switch in). Also provides a safety net so you can see what the opponent is going to do.

 

[Misa]

Another suggestion on latias would be safeguard and reflect/light screen. Safeguard allows latias to protect against status, and it makes Latias more of a team player against things like cress's thunder wave and blissey's toxic.just a mention.

 

[RaikouLover]

Safeguard should probably be over refresh on the defensive CMer IMO. As long as you don't do anything stupid like switch into Blissey's Toxic you should be fine (Blissey switches into you :-P).

 

[cim]

I personally hope Safeguard becomes standard so that Obistall can just run Icy Wind Blissey again :P but yeah i agree.

 

[TAY]

lol have you guys even used that set? Safely switching into status is a huge deal, especially for offensive teams that typically have no way to take status. I mean I guess it works when blissey switches into you, but refresh allows you to get Latias in way more often. Any argument about "predicting" the status attacks is irrelevant since your opponent can predict as well. Rather than protecting the rest of my team for five turns when Blissey switches in, I would much rather have Latias always OK to switch into Blissey, Celebi, Cresselia, Rotom, Zapdos and Jirachi (note that none of these will ever come in on latias besides Blissey and Jirachi, and maybe like scarf Rotom if they are desperate [but then it won't be using status anyway]).

It's a little funny to me that you would suggest safeguard on a sweeping set and not bother to suggest it on the one Latias set whose entire point is to set up your team =/

So unless anyone objects I am going to make Safeguard an option on the Dual Screen set.

Pana I will also be adding substitute as a slash on the defensive sweeper; you have used it against me (and other players) successfully on a number of occasions.

 

[kaonohiokala]

On the Choice Specs set, "greatly improved defenses" really isn't the best definition for Latias compared to Salamence.

Latias: 80 HP/90 Def/130 SpDef

Salamence: 95 HP/80 Def/80 SpDef

Salamence actually has better physical defense that Latias (especially when factoring in Intimidate). I'd say that the following sentence would fit better:

"With Choice Specs Salamence being a huge pain with 110 Special Attack and 100 Speed, it only makes sense that Latias would be even more annoying with 10 more base Speed points, greater special defense, and an improved typing."


I also feel like maxing Speed on these Latias sets are unnecessary. The only point behind doing so would mainly be speed tying Gengar and other Latias. Instead, it should aim for some other “magic number” to run.


I'd like to submit a Choice Scarf set that I’ve tested and found to be effective:

[SET]
name: Choice Scarf
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Thunderbolt
move 3: Dragon Pulse / Psychic
move 4: Surf / Ice Beam / Trick
item: Choice Scarf
nature: Timid
evs: 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>While Latias has an amazing base speed of 110, with a Choice Scarf equipped it can be an excellent revenge killer. With the given Speed EVs, Latias can outspeed any +1 positive base 100 Pokemon (primarily Choice Scarfers and Dragon Dancers). While working intially similar to Choice Scarf Gengar, Latias trades Gengar's higher power for increased durability.</p>

<p>Draco Meteor should be your primary attacking move, as it ends up more powerful than any of Latias' moves even while they are super-effective, with the exception of Psychic. With Choice Scarf Draco Meteor, you can hit nearly everything fast and hard, 2HKOing almost everything in the metagame that doesn't resist it, even with the Sp. Atk. drop. The other attacks should only be used if you don't want the Sp Atk drop or are trying to conserve it's PP. Thunderbolt is for hitting Gyarados and various other Water- or Flying-types, Dragon Pulse is for STAB sweeping without the offense drops of Draco Meteor. Latias' Psychic STAB can be used similarly, as it has slightly more power and can hit more things super-effectively at the expense of being resisted by other Psychic- and Dark-types. The last move is mainly filler, but each can serve its own purpose. Surf hits Heatran, Ice Beam creates the Boltbeam combo, and Trick lets you get rid of Choice Scarf when you don't need it.</p>

<p>If you want something slightly faster than just outspeeding base 100s, drop the HP EVs to 16 and run 240 Speed EVs on Latias in order to outspeed Choice Scarf Infernape. This would be a recommended EV spread if you’re running Trick on the set, as you can still outspeed non-Scarfed Infernapes after Tricking your scarf away.</p>