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Gen 4 DPP NU Viability Ranking

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Oglemi, Jul 14, 2014.

  1. Oglemi

    Oglemi The Machampion
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    Secret Boss Mod

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    Been playing this a bit again because of RUPL and NUPL. It's a really fun meta and easy to pick up, figured I'd do one of these for it since I did for ADV NU lol.

    S Rank: Reserved for the top threats in the NU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well with little to no extra support. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this tier have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

    Top:
    • [​IMG] Charizard
    • [​IMG] Medicham
    • [​IMG] Tauros
    Low:
    • [​IMG] Regirock
    • [​IMG] Skuntank
    • [​IMG] Slowking
    A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are outstanding in the NU metagame and can sweep, wall, or support the majority of the tier. These Pokemon require less support than other Pokemon to be used effectively, but still perform less consistently than the average S rank Pokemon. A rank Pokemon have few flaws that can be overlooked when compared to their positive traits.

    Top:
    • [​IMG] Haunter
    • [​IMG] Jynx
    • [​IMG] Magmortar
    Mid:
    • [​IMG] Gardevoir
    • [​IMG] Gligar
    • [​IMG] Hitmonchan
    • [​IMG] Hypno
    • [​IMG] Lickilicky
    • [​IMG] Manectric
    • [​IMG] Sandslash
    Low:
    • [​IMG] Dodrio
    • [​IMG] Drifblim
    • [​IMG] Floatzel
    • [​IMG] Magneton
    • [​IMG] Meganium
    • [​IMG] Nidoqueen
    • [​IMG] Vileplume
    B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who are slightly above average in the NU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than of those above it that affects how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential

    Top:
    • [​IMG] Cacturne
    • [​IMG] Electrode
    • [​IMG] Ninetales
    • [​IMG] Politoed
    • [​IMG] Poliwrath
    • [​IMG] Quagsire
    • [​IMG] Shiftry
    • [​IMG] Typhlosion
    • [​IMG] Venomoth
    • [​IMG] Victreebel
    • [​IMG] Whiscash
    Mid:
    • [​IMG] Cradily
    • [​IMG] Dusclops
    • [​IMG] Glalie
    • [​IMG] Golem
    • [​IMG] Gorebyss
    • [​IMG] Grumpig
    • [​IMG] Jumpluff
    • [​IMG] Lapras
    • [​IMG] Piloswine
    • [​IMG] Pinsir
    • [​IMG] Porygon2
    • [​IMG] Regice
    Low:
    • [​IMG] Camerupt
    • [​IMG] Gabite
    • [​IMG] Gastrodon
    • [​IMG] Golduck
    • [​IMG] Linoone
    • [​IMG] Mantine
    • [​IMG] Marowak
    • [​IMG] Muk
    • [​IMG] Rhydon
    • [​IMG] Sharpedo

    C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the NU metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being top tier threats. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be as effective as higher ranked Pokemon in NU. C rank Pokemon tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

    Top:
    • [​IMG] Articuno
    • [​IMG] Crawdaunt
    • [​IMG] Electabuzz
    • [​IMG] Machoke
    • [​IMG] Persian
    • [​IMG] Probopass
    • [​IMG] Purugly
    • [​IMG] Raichu
    • [​IMG] Rapidash
    • [​IMG] Roselia
    • [​IMG] Slaking
    • [​IMG] Sneasel
    • [​IMG] Torkoal
    Mid:
    • [​IMG] Ampharos
    • [​IMG] Armaldo
    • [​IMG] Glaceon
    • [​IMG] Huntail
    • [​IMG] Kadabra
    • [​IMG] Misdreavus
    • [​IMG] Mr. Mime
    • [​IMG] Monferno
    • [​IMG] Raticate
    • [​IMG] Relicanth
    • [​IMG] Solrock
    • [​IMG] Xatu
    Low:
    • [​IMG] Banette
    • [​IMG] Bastiodon
    • [​IMG] Butterfree
    • [​IMG] Chatot
    • [​IMG] Diglett
    • [​IMG] Dragonair
    • [​IMG] Flareon
    • [​IMG] Girafarig
    • [​IMG] Golbat
    • [​IMG] Lopunny
    • [​IMG] Luxray
    • [​IMG] Metang
    • [​IMG] Rampardos
    • [​IMG] Stantler
    • [​IMG] Swalot
    • [​IMG] Wailord
    • [​IMG] Walrein
    • [​IMG] Zangoose
    D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are below average in the NU metagame. These Pokemon often require very significant amounts of support with a relatively low reward compared to higher ranked Pokemon.


    Top:
    • [​IMG] Ariados
    • [​IMG] Bellossom
    • [​IMG] Bibarel
    • [​IMG] Dewgong
    • [​IMG] Exploud
    • [​IMG] Fearow
    • [​IMG] Granbull
    • [​IMG] Murkrow
    • [​IMG] Regigigas
    • [​IMG] Shelgon
    Mid:
    • [​IMG] Kecleon
    • [​IMG] Lunatone
    • [​IMG] Pidgeot
    • [​IMG] Seaking
    • [​IMG] Tropius
    Low:
    • [​IMG] Arbok
    • [​IMG] Minun
    • [​IMG] Octillery
    • [​IMG] Plusle
    • [​IMG] Seviper
    • [​IMG] Wormadam-S

    Untested Rank: Reserved for pokemon that might have niches, but havent been sufficiently tested. Post your experiences with them here so we can give them a tier.
    and now onto: THE RULES.

    ~Rules~
    ~Only nominate viable Pokemon. We are not going to put every legal Pokemon in NU on the list. There is no reason to put stuff that no one will ever use.
    ~Post intelligently. Posts like "I think pokemon X should be in this tier" will not be tolerated
    ~No flaming
    ~No talk about editing the OFFICIAL smogon tier lists.
    ~Only pokemon in NU are up for nomination, pokemon in higher tiers are not allowed to be nominated, this should be common sense but lol
    Last edited: May 28, 2016
  2. Oglemi

    Oglemi The Machampion
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  3. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

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    I used to play DPP NU a lot back then (back in the Project NU days) and can say that Venomoth is far better than a C. Decent speed, Sleep Powder, Toxic Spikes, Baton Pass (for Agility) coverage moves, and Tinted Lens. A free turn for it is extremely dangerous for opponents. The SR weakness isn't too bad. Besides that, its only real issue is the four moveslot syndrome, but at least Tinted Lens patches that up a decent bit. I found it hard to make teams without it at one point because it was so good. Has that changed?
  4. Honko

    Honko he of many honks
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    Moth is definitely better than C, I'd put it at B+ or A-.

    Not sure I agree with Jynx, Magmortar, and Skuntank in S. Jynx is great but has bad matchups with a lot of other top Pokemon. Magmortar is great but has strong competition for Fire-type with Zard and Typhlosion and isn't as good of a wallbreaker as Medicham. Skuntank is excellent at its role, but that role isn't as big as any other Pokemon in S or high A. I'd put all three of these guys in A+ and merge the 3 S-ranks into a single rank with Zard, Medicham, and Tauros.

    Other gut reactions:
    Hitmonchan, Hypno, Shiftry, Cradily, Dodrio, Golduck, Magneton, Jumpluff, Marowak, Gabite, Purugly, Persian, and Relicanth are too low.
    Manectric, Meganium (garb), Golem, Politoed, Rhydon, Victreebel, Glalie, Grumpig, Kadabra, Lopunny, Regigigas, Bellossom, and Dewgong are too high.

    Will post more later.
    MoxieInfinite likes this.
  5. BKC

    BKC You will croak, you little clown!
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    i think jynx and medicham are just as good as charizard :pirate:

    magmortar and haunter for high A

    manectric for mid A

    jumpluff for low B
    Jaiho likes this.
  6. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

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    For Banders/Scarfers, Dodrio, Gabite, and Hitmonchan are really good and should be bumped. Jumpluff is a good disruptor. As for Venomoth, I'd rate it a high or mid A myself.
  7. Oglemi

    Oglemi The Machampion
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    Secret Boss Mod

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    Made a bunch of shifts, disagree on moving Grumpig out of B+ just because it so completely stops most Charizard/Jynx/Magmortar/Manectric and checks Medicham, just without Wish, which is what Hypno outclasses it with.

    I don't want to move Meganium out of A rank because it is such a good stop to a wide variety of things, and the Ground resistance is sooooooooo nice compared to Vileplume who I will admit does most everything else better.

    I could probably move Dodrio and Gabite a bit higher, but I never liked using them myself just because Regirock and Gligar just shit on them, and most other offense mons have no problem revenge killing Gabite.
  8. TSM ryan

    TSM ryan

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    I would definitely move Pinsir to at least Low A. It's such an effective late game cleaner with it's great use of Choice Scarf. It's move set really shines in this meta that dominates with Charizard and Jynx. Bar the fact that you will most likely have rocks up, Jynx won't be able to retain a sash and get KO'd by a Stone Edge, as will Charizard. While it may not have its gem from Gen 5 known as Moxie, this guy was definitely huge as a fast(with scarf) sweeper late game.
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2014
  9. Honko

    Honko he of many honks
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    Oglemi
    Some more thoughts, happy to discuss any of them. When I was on the fence about where to move something I generally picked the one that would be a bigger move, so I expect some of them went too far.

    I think Hypno should be high A as it's probably the best defensive Pokemon in the tier. It beats basically every special attacker except Haunter (and it can even OHKO that with Psychic if you want) and is also the safest counter to Medicham and Hitmonchan, only fearing Trick. If you don't have a Skuntank your team probably has trouble getting past Hypno.

    Nidoqueen down to high B. Gligar and Sandslash are generally better outside of hail/sand stall where T-Spikes are worth using. Nidoqueen's resistances are cool and she's the most viable (and one of very few viable) phazers, but almost everything whose STAB she can switch in on carries a super effective coverage move, and her attacks are laughably weak when they aren't super effective. She's a good Pokemon but not as good as the rest of A imo.

    Gastrodon seems too high. I would never use it as a defensive mon tbh, HP Grass is way too common on the Electrics and Fires it wants to wall, and all the other specially defensive Water-types have better utility moves. It has that ridiculous Linoone partner set but that's really niche. I might be missing something but I'd put Gastro somewhere in C.

    I still think Grumpig is too high as Hypno beats most of the same Pokemon and a lot more. Pig doesn't have recovery, it doesn't have Insomnia to actually beat Jynx, and it doesn't have the natural bulk to take on Fighting-types and special attackers at the same time the way Hypno can. It's less of an offensive liability than Hypno is, but if that's an issue I would just use Gardevoir. High C for Grumpig imo.

    Rhydon down to low B, Golem is better.

    Dodrio up to low A. Regirock (and Golem/Rhydon) shit on it, yes, but they have to check so much without having reliable recovery so they aren't that hard to wear down. Everything else is 2HKOed at worst, including Gligar and all the other Ground-types that don't resist Brave Bird. Return even 2HKOes 4 HP Magneton. This thing is ridiculously strong.

    Electabuzz down to...uhh...mid D? I'm not even sure it should be ranked. In UU I guess it had a tiny niche for being able to use SubPunch or Cross Chop to get past Chansey/Clefable, but in NU where most special walls resist Fighting it's just completely outclassed by Manectric.

    Golduck up to low A. It's a very solid offensive Pokemon even without taking into account how it destroys all four weathers' most dangerous threats with Cloud Nine and Encore.

    Magneton up to low A. Steel typing is awesome and so rare, it's really the only offensive Normal/Flying resist in the tier, and it's also one of the most powerful special attackers that isn't a Fire-type.

    Gabite up to mid B. Nothing walls this except lame Dusclops. Regirock gets 2HKOed by CB Earthquake unless it invests heavily in Defense (which it shouldn't). All the Steel-types in the tier are OHKOed by EQ and everything else is 2HKOed at worst by Outrage. It's very vulnerable to revenge killing, but it will probably kill at least one thing first.

    Butterfree, Kecleon, and Xatu should probably be on the list somewhere. Low C / Mid D / Mid C?
    Jirachee likes this.
  10. Oglemi

    Oglemi The Machampion
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    Secret Boss Mod

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    Aight made changes

    Uncomfortable putting Queen below A because she's just such a good mon in the tier. She isn't really so niche because the Fighting + Rock resistance is just really nice to have, and idk I think Tspikes are more valuable than you'd give credit for overall since they're nice to throw on a more offensive team to wear down Slowking/Regi/Licki, despite that skunk and plume are super popular and absorb them almost every game, though skunk isn't going to switch into queen and plume really shouldn't be either.

    Also don't want to put Grumpig below B. He's outclassed but the Fire resistance + speed + power with a Specs/LO is a cool combo and is like having gard and slowking in the same slot in exchange for a little bit of power

    Don't really want to move Golduck above B since I never really felt like I would use him over Floatzel or Gard in almost any situation, but idk I could be convinced to move him up

    Ebuzz is outclassed but not a bad mon at all, and a double electric core with him as specs/scarf and manec as sub/scarf could be really good
  11. Honko

    Honko he of many honks
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    I like Queen and will use her on certain teams but her resistances are better on paper than in practice in my experience. Both Fighting-types will beat her fairly easily unless you already know they're locked into a Fighting move, so she's a fairly shaky check to them. Rock moves are rare outside of Regirock (she handles him nicely until he explodes :heart:) and Ground-types who obviously have STAB EQ. She does do well against Electrics, especially ones that use HP Grass over HP Ice, but she needs SpDef investment to be a real counter. Basically she fits on teams easily because she can sort of check a lot of different things, but she's not a solid counter to anything, and for a Pokemon so lacking in offensive presence that often leads to disappointment.

    I'll defer to your judgment on Grumpig as I don't think I've ever used it and I rarely faced it.

    Golduck is a way better weather counter than Gardevoir since it beats pretty much everything whereas Gard really only beats Rain and Victreebel. It's also a better standalone CM sweeper imo thanks to higher speed and stronger STAB and more reliable coverage, plus the option of using Encore to set up easier. And Floatzel is kind of a weird comparison imo, Golduck can't do what Floatzel does but Floatzel can't do what Golduck does either. I still think it belongs in low A. It's definitely better than everything else in B with the possible exceptions of Typhlosion (who is only down there because of competition) and Venomoth.

    D was probably a little harsh for Buzz, but even if I was gonna use a double Electric core with Manectric I'd always take Magneton or Raichu or even Electrode over Ebuzz. They all bring something cool to the table to help eliminate Manectric's counters or sweep after Manectric weakens theirs. Buzz doesn't bring anything to the table except being a weaker copy of Manectric, and Manectric isn't nearly dominant enough for that to be worthwhile imo. I would still move Buzz down to low C.
  12. Honko

    Honko he of many honks
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    I've compiled some usage stats based on 100+ DPP NU matches from RUPL1, NUPL2, NUPL3, and PUPL, so I'm posting them here for anyone who might be interested (Oglemi Bughouse). I think they're actually pretty accurate at representing what's good in the tier. Medicham seems low, Nidoqueen seems high, and I continue to be disappointed that nobody else likes Hypno or Golduck, but I'm pleasantly surprised to see that Whiscash got barely any usage and Persian and Purugly got none at all, since I've always found those three underwhelming but remember them being everywhere on the PO ladder back in the day.

    Overall Usage:
    Code:
    + ---- + ------------------ + ----- +
    | Rank | Pokemon            |   %   |
    + ---- + ------------------ + ----- +
    | 1    | Slowking           | 41.3% |
    | 2    | Tauros             | 36.4% |
    | 3    | Regirock           | 33.1% |
    | 4    | Skuntank           | 31.4% |
    | 5    | Charizard          | 28.1% |
    | 6    | Haunter            | 25.6% |
    | 7    | Nidoqueen          | 23.1% |
    | 7    | Medicham           | 23.1% |
    | 9    | Hitmonchan         | 20.7% |
    | 10   | Sandslash          | 19.8% |
    | 10   | Manectric          | 19.8% |
    | 12   | Floatzel           | 17.4% |
    | 12   | Gligar             | 17.4% |
    | 14   | Gardevoir          | 13.2% |
    | 15   | Vileplume          | 12.4% |
    | 16   | Lickilicky         | 11.6% |
    | 16   | Jynx               | 11.6% |
    | 16   | Cacturne           | 11.6% |
    | 16   | Typhlosion         | 11.6% |
    | 20   | Magneton           |  9.9% |
    | 21   | Magmortar          |  9.1% |
    | 21   | Drifblim           |  9.1% |
    | 23   | Hippopotas         |  7.4% |
    | 23   | Muk                |  7.4% |
    | 23   | Hypno              |  7.4% |
    | 26   | Glalie             |  6.6% |
    | 26   | Venomoth           |  6.6% |
    | 28   | Rhydon             |  5.8% |
    | 29   | Electrode          |  5.0% |
    | 29   | Roselia            |  5.0% |
    | 29   | Shiftry            |  5.0% |
    | 29   | Dodrio             |  5.0% |
    | 33   | Snover             |  4.5% |
    | 34   | Mantine            |  4.1% |
    | 34   | Grumpig            |  4.1% |
    | 34   | Porygon2           |  4.1% |
    | 34   | Meganium           |  4.1% |
    + ---- + ------------------ + ----- +
    | 38   | Poliwrath          |  3.3% |
    | 38   | Gorebyss           |  3.3% |
    | 38   | Pinsir             |  3.3% |
    | 38   | Solrock            |  3.3% |
    | 38   | Marowak            |  3.3% |
    | 38   | Whiscash           |  3.3% |
    | 44   | Dusclops           |  2.5% |
    | 44   | Piloswine          |  2.5% |
    | 44   | Walrein            |  2.5% |
    | 44   | Camerupt           |  2.5% |
    | 44   | Jumpluff           |  2.5% |
    | 44   | Sneasel            |  2.5% |
    | 44   | Probopass          |  2.5% |
    | 44   | Ninetales          |  2.5% |
    | 44   | Machoke            |  2.5% |
    | 44   | Cradily            |  2.5% |
    | 44   | Golem              |  2.5% |
    | 55   | Xatu               |  1.7% |
    | 55   | Arbok              |  1.7% |
    | 55   | Linoone            |  1.7% |
    | 55   | Regice             |  1.7% |
    | 55   | Relicanth          |  1.7% |
    | 55   | Lapras             |  1.7% |
    | 55   | Politoed           |  1.7% |
    | 55   | Articuno           |  1.7% |
    | 55   | Golduck            |  1.7% |
    | 55   | Misdreavus         |  1.7% |
    | 55   | Flareon            |  1.7% |
    | 55   | Victreebel         |  1.7% |
    | 55   | Slaking            |  1.7% |
    | 68   | Clamperl           |  0.8% |
    | 68   | Trapinch           |  0.8% |
    | 68   | Ampharos           |  0.8% |
    | 68   | Bibarel            |  0.8% |
    | 68   | Crawdaunt          |  0.8% |
    | 68   | Diglett            |  0.8% |
    | 68   | Gastrodon          |  0.8% |
    | 68   | Kadabra            |  0.8% |
    | 68   | Monferno           |  0.8% |
    | 68   | Pelipper           |  0.8% |
    | 68   | Rampardos          |  0.8% |
    | 68   | Gabite             |  0.8% |
    | 68   | Sharpedo           |  0.8% |
    | 68   | Wormadam           |  0.8% |
    | 68   | Pidgeot            |  0.8% |
    | 68   | Regigigas          |  0.8% |
    + ---- + ------------------ + ----- +
    
    Lead Usage:
    Code:
    + ---- + ------------------ + ----- +
    | Rank | Pokemon            |   %   |
    + ---- + ------------------ + ----- +
    | 1    | Jynx               | 21.2% |
    | 2    | Charizard          | 19.7% |
    | 3    | Muk                | 13.6% |
    | 4    | Regirock           | 12.1% |
    | 5    | Glalie             | 10.6% |
    | 6    | Floatzel           |  9.1% |
    | 6    | Medicham           |  9.1% |
    | 8    | Cacturne           |  7.6% |
    | 8    | Typhlosion         |  7.6% |
    | 10   | Electrode          |  6.1% |
    | 10   | Nidoqueen          |  6.1% |
    | 10   | Snover             |  6.1% |
    | 13   | Piloswine          |  4.5% |
    | 13   | Sandslash          |  4.5% |
    | 13   | Gardevoir          |  4.5% |
    | 13   | Sneasel            |  4.5% |
    | 13   | Hippopotas         |  4.5% |
    | 13   | Machoke            |  4.5% |
    | 13   | Hitmonchan         |  4.5% |
    | 20   | Gligar             |  3.0% |
    | 20   | Pinsir             |  3.0% |
    | 20   | Solrock            |  3.0% |
    | 20   | Venomoth           |  3.0% |
    | 20   | Haunter            |  3.0% |
    | 20   | Slowking           |  3.0% |
    | 20   | Golem              |  3.0% |
    | 20   | Tauros             |  3.0% |
    | 28   | Camerupt           |  1.5% |
    | 28   | Magmortar          |  1.5% |
    | 28   | Kadabra            |  1.5% |
    | 28   | Monferno           |  1.5% |
    | 28   | Rampardos          |  1.5% |
    | 28   | Shiftry            |  1.5% |
    | 28   | Drifblim           |  1.5% |
    | 28   | Grumpig            |  1.5% |
    | 28   | Sharpedo           |  1.5% |
    | 28   | Pidgeot            |  1.5% |
    + ---- + ------------------ + ----- +
    
    Celever, TSM ryan, Bughouse and 6 others like this.
  13. Bughouse

    Bughouse Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
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    e.e

    Was I really the only person to use Ampharos or Crawdaunt the whole time? More people should be using TR!
    Was I really the only person to use Sharpedo the whole time? It's a solid anti-lead.

    In other (sensible) news, I was also the only person to use Wormadam, Kadabra, Gastrodon, and Diglett. And maybe Trapinch and Clamperl too but I'm not positive that was me.

    My other main comments I guess are the following:
    I'm surprised Hitmonchan and Sandslash are in a dead heat. Chan is a far better spinner imo.
    Gligar, while pretty good, seems way high. But I guess it was boosted by a large number of sand veil teams...
    Jynx's overall usage is really low. It almost seems as if you don't consider it for your lead, you rarely consider it at all, which is strange for such an effective Pokemon.
    The "niche" fire types are getting more use than I expected. Charizard dominates, sure, but Magmortar, Ninetales, and Typhlosion all saw decent usage, which suggests to me people are actually teambuilding intelligently and not just slapping Charizard on.
    lol Slowking and Regirock both so high bc of the Charizard fear, not that that's surprising.
    People are generally underutilizing Dark types in Cacturne, Shiftry, Sneasel, Sharpedo, and Crawdaunt. The only common resist in the whole tier is Hitmonchan, followed way behind by Magneton. They also capitalize nicely on Slowking's prevalence.
  14. Honko

    Honko he of many honks
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    Here's some updated post-NUPL4 stats. This new list is based on NUPL2, NUPL3, PUPL1, and NUPL4. I removed RUPL because it was several years ago and only had stats from a few matches which were mostly me and Ogles spamming Hypno and Meganium. I also removed Hippopotas and Snover since they're banned in most tournaments now.

    Overall Usage:
    Code:
    + ---- + ------------------ + ----- +
    | Rank | Pokemon            |   %   |
    + ---- + ------------------ + ----- +
    | 1    | Regirock           | 41.3% |
    | 1    | Slowking           | 41.3% |
    | 3    | Tauros             | 40.1% |
    | 4    | Skuntank           | 29.1% |
    | 5    | Charizard          | 26.7% |
    | 6    | Hitmonchan         | 22.7% |
    | 7    | Nidoqueen          | 20.9% |
    | 8    | Medicham           | 19.2% |
    | 8    | Haunter            | 19.2% |
    | 10   | Manectric          | 18.6% |
    | 11   | Sandslash          | 17.4% |
    | 12   | Gligar             | 16.3% |
    | 13   | Lickilicky         | 14.5% |
    | 13   | Floatzel           | 14.5% |
    | 15   | Typhlosion         | 12.2% |
    | 15   | Gardevoir          | 12.2% |
    | 17   | Drifblim           | 11.6% |
    | 17   | Jynx               | 11.6% |
    | 19   | Magmortar          | 11.0% |
    | 20   | Vileplume          | 10.5% |
    | 21   | Magneton           |  9.3% |
    | 21   | Cacturne           |  9.3% |
    | 23   | Shiftry            |  8.7% |
    | 24   | Venomoth           |  7.6% |
    | 25   | Poliwrath          |  7.0% |
    | 25   | Dodrio             |  7.0% |
    | 27   | Grumpig            |  6.4% |
    | 27   | Muk                |  6.4% |
    | 29   | Hypno              |  5.8% |
    | 30   | Cradily            |  5.2% |
    | 30   | Electrode          |  5.2% |
    | 30   | Glalie             |  5.2% |
    | 33   | Rhydon             |  4.7% |
    | 34   | Jumpluff           |  4.1% |
    | 34   | Meganium           |  4.1% |
    | 34   | Roselia            |  4.1% |
    | 37   | Dusclops           |  3.5% |
    | 37   | Sneasel            |  3.5% |
    | 37   | Whiscash           |  3.5% |
    | 37   | Solrock            |  3.5% |
    | 37   | Mantine            |  3.5% |
    | 37   | Porygon2           |  3.5% |
    + ---- + ------------------ + ----- +
    | 43   | Persian            |  2.9% |
    | 43   | Sharpedo           |  2.9% |
    | 43   | Regice             |  2.9% |
    | 43   | Golem              |  2.9% |
    | 43   | Probopass          |  2.9% |
    | 43   | Gorebyss           |  2.9% |
    | 43   | Marowak            |  2.9% |
    | 50   | Misdreavus         |  2.3% |
    | 50   | Victreebel         |  2.3% |
    | 50   | Camerupt           |  2.3% |
    | 50   | Ninetales          |  2.3% |
    | 50   | Pinsir             |  2.3% |
    | 55   | Armaldo            |  1.7% |
    | 55   | Crawdaunt          |  1.7% |
    | 55   | Linoone            |  1.7% |
    | 55   | Relicanth          |  1.7% |
    | 55   | Lapras             |  1.7% |
    | 55   | Politoed           |  1.7% |
    | 55   | Machoke            |  1.7% |
    | 55   | Piloswine          |  1.7% |
    | 63   | Quagsire           |  1.2% |
    | 63   | Rapidash           |  1.2% |
    | 63   | Golduck            |  1.2% |
    | 63   | Bibarel            |  1.2% |
    | 63   | Gastrodon          |  1.2% |
    | 63   | Monferno           |  1.2% |
    | 63   | Walrein            |  1.2% |
    | 63   | Xatu               |  1.2% |
    | 63   | Arbok              |  1.2% |
    | 63   | Flareon            |  1.2% |
    | 73   | Bastiodon          |  0.6% |
    | 73   | Delibird           |  0.6% |
    | 73   | Furret             |  0.6% |
    | 73   | Kingler            |  0.6% |
    | 73   | Purugly            |  0.6% |
    | 73   | Raticate           |  0.6% |
    | 73   | Slaking            |  0.6% |
    | 73   | Wailord            |  0.6% |
    | 73   | Articuno           |  0.6% |
    | 73   | Clamperl           |  0.6% |
    | 73   | Trapinch           |  0.6% |
    | 73   | Ampharos           |  0.6% |
    | 73   | Diglett            |  0.6% |
    | 73   | Kadabra            |  0.6% |
    | 73   | Pelipper           |  0.6% |
    | 73   | Rampardos          |  0.6% |
    | 73   | Gabite             |  0.6% |
    | 73   | Wormadam           |  0.6% |
    + ---- + ------------------ + ----- +
    
    Lead Usage:
    Code:
    + ---- + ------------------ + ----- +
    | Rank | Pokemon            |   %   |
    + ---- + ------------------ + ----- +
    | 1    | Charizard          | 20.0% |
    | 2    | Jynx               | 17.8% |
    | 3    | Regirock           | 14.4% |
    | 4    | Muk                | 11.1% |
    | 5    | Nidoqueen          |  8.9% |
    | 5    | Typhlosion         |  8.9% |
    | 5    | Glalie             |  8.9% |
    | 8    | Electrode          |  7.8% |
    | 8    | Cacturne           |  7.8% |
    | 10   | Sneasel            |  6.7% |
    | 10   | Floatzel           |  6.7% |
    | 12   | Venomoth           |  5.6% |
    | 12   | Sandslash          |  5.6% |
    | 14   | Persian            |  4.4% |
    | 14   | Hitmonchan         |  4.4% |
    | 14   | Gardevoir          |  4.4% |
    | 14   | Medicham           |  4.4% |
    | 18   | Sharpedo           |  3.3% |
    | 18   | Gligar             |  3.3% |
    | 18   | Solrock            |  3.3% |
    | 18   | Machoke            |  3.3% |
    | 18   | Golem              |  3.3% |
    | 18   | Tauros             |  3.3% |
    | 18   | Piloswine          |  3.3% |
    | 25   | Armaldo            |  2.2% |
    | 25   | Dodrio             |  2.2% |
    | 25   | Dusclops           |  2.2% |
    | 25   | Magmortar          |  2.2% |
    | 25   | Pinsir             |  2.2% |
    | 25   | Haunter            |  2.2% |
    | 25   | Slowking           |  2.2% |
    | 32   | Crawdaunt          |  1.1% |
    | 32   | Delibird           |  1.1% |
    | 32   | Jumpluff           |  1.1% |
    | 32   | Lickilicky         |  1.1% |
    | 32   | Rapidash           |  1.1% |
    | 32   | Camerupt           |  1.1% |
    | 32   | Kadabra            |  1.1% |
    | 32   | Monferno           |  1.1% |
    | 32   | Rampardos          |  1.1% |
    | 32   | Shiftry            |  1.1% |
    | 32   | Drifblim           |  1.1% |
    | 32   | Grumpig            |  1.1% |
    + ---- + ------------------ + ----- +
    

    My thoughts:
    - Regirock jumps up to tie Slowking for the top spot. It's just so easy to splash onto teams.
    - Haunter and Medicham both drop a bit. Undeserved imo, Medicham is a top three mon and Haunter is fantastic and always under-prepared-for.
    - Hitmonchan pulls away from Sandslash in the Most Popular Spinner contest. Hitmonchan's a much better Pokemon but I don't know if it's a better spinner.
    - Hypno and Vileplume drop a ton. Skuntank destroys Hypno and lots of people are using Skuntank, but Hypno is still way better than this usage shows. Vileplume was probably overrated before and is around where it belongs now.
    - All three Spikers (Cacturne, Glalie, Roselia) drop. Good, fuck those guys.
    - Shiftry, Poliwrath, and Dodrio rise. Also good, these are all excellent Pokemon that can mess up cookie-cutter teams.
    - Cradily makes a big jump above the usage cutoff despite Sand being banned. Nice to see some non-Curse sets being used successfully.
    Bughouse likes this.
  15. Bughouse

    Bughouse Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
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    Praise the sun for Vileplume dropping down some. Always been a shit mon imo. It should continue trending down as Sunny Day sees less use (manual weather less necessary, since the auto weathers are gone). Using Vileplume as a regular old bulky grass is pretty mediocre. Meganium is generally better for the job. I mean, if the main point of a bulky grass is to take on something like a bulky water, say, idk the most used mon in the tier, having a typing that is weak to that bulky water's second STAB is a bad trait.

    The biggest thing I noticed is that Slowking stayed king and Regirock and Lickilicky, two of the other tankiest mons, saw big rises, making the top of the usage chart fatter than it has historically been. But it doesn't look like this is because of Stall rising. Dusclops is still only at 3.5%, from 2.5% before. Spikers, as you noted, went down. Some other stall mons did too, like Nidoqueen.

    So I think this may just be a trend in ++Regirock and ++Lickilicky, which I can definitely get behind because they are cool mons. But that may also just be that the small current DPP NU playerbase just doesn't particularly like playing stall. I think it would do pretty decently in this meta without having to worry about hail stall, which was a shit matchup. Maybe the best builds these days are just trending more bulky offense rather than full on hail stall or more heavy offense (that could break hail stall and out-offense other offense).
  16. Honko

    Honko he of many honks
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    I've always liked Vileplume more than Meganium just because Meganium is so damn passive. If you send out Meganium, I can bring in a Zard or Magmortar or Haunter or Venomoth basically for free, with the worst case scenario being that I get Leech Seeded. Vileplume can actually do something against those mons with Sleep Powder or Sludge Bomb. I think that makes it a better fit for this bulky RegiKing offense meta. I do think it's ranked too highly in the OP though and should move down to A-. It definitely doesn't belong up there with Regirock and Slowking.

    While I'm at it, I think Shiftry, Typhlosion, Venomoth, and Poliwrath all belong in A- as well. They're all a clear step above everything else in the B ranks imo.
  17. Bughouse

    Bughouse Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
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    Of those 4 suggestions, I could definitely get behind Shiftry and Poliwrath. The other 2 I'm less sold on. I also agree about Vileplume dropping some.

    Some of my other potential suggestions (mostly just half ranks, nothing crazy):

    Rises:
    Skuntank
    Slowking
    Drifblim
    Regice
    Porygon2
    Grumpig
    Jumpluff
    Muk
    Sneasel
    Sharpedo
    Crawdaunt

    Falls:
    Jynx
    Dodrio
    Whiscash
    Quagsire
    Lapras
    Victreebel
    Gabite
    Banette
  18. Honko

    Honko he of many honks
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    I agree with everything except dropping Dodrio and Victreebel. Although if we move Slowking and Skuntank up, I think Regirock should go with them, and I think we should also move Tauros and Medicham up with Zard. I'd be ok with an S+ of Zard/Medicham/Tauros and S- of Regirock/Slowking/Skuntank.

    I also think we should probably drop Hypno to A, although it makes me sad. Skuntank is just too popular. If your opponent doesn't have Skuntank, it's better than Lickilicky, but if they do, it's significantly worse. Considering 30% of teams are carrying Skuntank, it's hard to justify having Hypno be above Licky in the rankings.

    That would leave us with the top 4 ranks looking like this:
    S+: Zard / Medicham / Tauros
    S-: Regirock / Slowking / Skuntank
    A+: Jynx / Haunter / Magmortar
    A: Hypno / Gardevoir / Licklicky / Gligar / Sandslash / Hitmonchan / Manectric

    Seems accurate to me.

    What do you guys think about making the hail/sand bans "official" (in terms of these rankings, the dex tier list, and the analyses we're very slowly writing)? I think we should do it since it seems like those bans will usually be in place in future tourneys, and the point of these is to be a resource for the current meta. If you guys agree, obviously we should remove Snover/Hippo/Walrein from these rankings.

    Some other minor suggestions:
    Rises:
    Rapidash (Heysup beat me with it so it must be good. Seriously though, it's kinda like a faster, weaker Dodrio with Flash Fire and better status moves.)
    Solrock (decent lead)

    Falls:
    Cacturne (a little less scary without sand as an option)
    Golduck (less of a niche without sand/hail)
    Golem (always disappointing)

    Adds:
    Misdreavus: C (decent utility Ghost if you don't want Drifblim's extra weaknesses)
    Stantler: C- (totally outclassed by Tauros, but probably better than most of the other pure Normals like Zangoose and Vigoroth)
    Wailord: C- (it has Water Spout)
    Diglett: C- (I think Bughouse was onto something here...)
  19. Bughouse

    Bughouse Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
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    You can probably still keep Walrein on the ranks, fwiw. Dewgong is in C- and Walrein is certainly still better than Dewgong. It's Walrein's 110/90/90 bulk vs Dewgong's 90/80/95 and Walrein's 95 SpA vs Dewgong's 70. So Walrein would go somewhere between Lapras and Dewgong. It would probably be used with a set like Ice Beam, Surf, Super Fang, Toxic. Super Fang helps differentiate it from Lapras.

    But yes if we go with a permanent Hail ban (which I would support!) and some type of Sand ban too (if we can agree on one lol), then Hippo and Snover would just drop off, as they're useless otherwise.



    As to your proposed top ranks:
    S+: Zard / Medicham / Tauros
    S-: Regirock / Slowking / Skuntank
    A+: Jynx / Haunter / Magmortar
    A: Hypno / Gardevoir / Licklicky / Gligar / Sandslash / Hitmonchan / Manectric

    S+ is a bit much for Medicham imo and Tauros for me is a maybe. I could get on board.
    S- looks good, except for the Medicham I'd drop back into it. Regirock rise makes sense.
    A+ looks good. Magmortar is criminally underused for as good of a mon as it is. Jynx drop makes sense with how dominated it is by Slowking and Skuntank (though you can also use your own Skuntank to get around Slowking)
    A: Hypno is the most obvious one to maybe drop to A-, followed by Sandslash, followed by Hitmonchan. The others all make sense as A.


    For your other things:
    I can also support a Solrock rise, Golem fall, Golduck fall, and Diglett and Wailord additions. Don't know so much about what you said for the other mons heh. Misdreavus in particular is like really bad... and Stantler is just why?
  20. Honko

    Honko he of many honks
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    I agree if we drop anything from A, Hypno and Sandslash are the ones to drop. I wouldn't drop Hitmonchan.

    I don't think Cacturne's role as a suicide spikes lead that loses to Jynx and Fire-types is worthy of A-, and without sand there's not much point in running other sets as they're mostly outclassed by Shiftry.

    Missy and Stantler are not good, but everything in C- and below is just as bad or worse. Either we should bump a lot of that crap off the list, or we should add those two. I mean, freaking Dewgong is in C- and it's completely outclassed by hail-less Walrein, who in turn is almost completely outclassed by Lapras, who in turn just barely makes the cut as something I would actually choose for a serious team. Missy at least has a bunch of interesting moves like Heal Bell, Perish Song, T-Wave, Taunt, Memento, Trick Room, (usable) Pain Split, and in theory it could take on the Fighting-types better than Drifblim/Haunter thanks to outspeeding Medicham and not being weak to their coverage moves. Stantler has Intimidate, Sucker Punch, Megahorn, and decent attacking stats. Given the garbage currently in C- and D, I think that's enough to make those two deserving of some sort of rank.
  21. Oglemi

    Oglemi The Machampion
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    Made most of the edits, will do the additions later, open to more suggestions

    not a fan of dropping Golem, i always seem to have good luck with him
  22. Honko

    Honko he of many honks
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    Yeah, "good luck", like that time you used it against me and Showdown had its stats wrong which stopped it from activating my Drifblim's Focus Sash.

    :mad:

    I still think Poliwrath is a rank or two too low. Glaceon and Walrein seem a little high (I'd put them in mid and low C respectively). Banette as well (low C or high D imo). Lopunny, Bellossom, Dewgong, and Vigoroth to D or unranked. Lumineon, Pelipper, Shuckle, and Magcargo all seem worth removing completely as well if we aren't ranking the 100% useless mons.
  23. Bughouse

    Bughouse Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
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    Yeah I would definitely support tightening up the ranks a bit and just moving some to unranked.
  24. AM

    AM MakuFlex
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    In the usage stats is the cutoff point where it starts with Persian and below consider DPP PU? If so are there any specific bans or illegalities to be aware of?
  25. Honko

    Honko he of many honks
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    Correct, everything Persian and below would be considered PU. The only other thing to be aware of for PU legality is that Snover and Hippopotas would also be banned, just as they were banned from the recent DPP NU tournaments.
    AM likes this.

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