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Gen 4 DPP OU General Metagame Discussion

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Aerodactyl Legend, May 6, 2014.

  1. BKC

    BKC
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    ttar gets grass knot?

    i'm not saying that mixtar is a bad ddnite partner, far from it, since it roasts skarm and can put up sr that isnt getting spun away immediately. tar just doesnt effectively lure the dudes you say it does. i suppose tbolt is ok for bulky cune/gyara while still hitting skarm but it does absolutely nothing vs hippo/pert. also unless youre running cb or metronome rachi (lol) i dont see iron head really threatening bulky nite...
  2. Lord Ninjax

    Lord Ninjax

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    Hmmm: yeah I suppose it doesn't really lure and beat Swampert/Hippowdon that well, so yeah, MixRachi I feel is better, you can run an alternate SR setter and Skarmory/Suicune counter: Scarf Rotom-H is nice due to need of a revenge killer and spinblocking services cause DDNite wants SR up on the other side. The other good thing about a mixed attacker is that you can usually sack it to lock a Scarfed mon into something like EQ (Flygon, Tyranitar), or a Fire type move (Rotom-H, Jirachi, Heatran), giving DDNite 2 Free turns of setup assuming that counters are removed.

    Edit: Yeah, I've been trying to build a team around SubTox Jirachi, but I have no clue where to start. Thoughts please?
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2014
  3. Jirachee

    Jirachee who dares wins
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    I don't think Dragonite needs a lot of damage on Waters to beat them, they're checks more than counters. The main problem I've found using DDNite is that it often lacks a good set up opportunity when the time is good for it to sweep. I think that Taunt Gyarados is a great partner, since it's able to get some damage on Waters, fuck up a Skarmory, and take advantage of stuff that Dragonite lures in like Hippo / Pert or whatever. It also lures in bulky Grass types which are often great opportunities for Dragonite to set up because HP Ice is pretty uncommon now. The only problem is the double Rock weakness but I don't think it's that bad if you have a strong anti-SR lead like Aero, Starmie or even Forretress and something to beat Tyranitar and Aero like Breloom or Bronzong.

    SubToxic Jirachi is an interesting set and I think a team with it should focus on hazard control. You're probably going to fall on a Skarmory which is going to set up Spikes all over you (Fire Punch does fuck all), Heatran which is going to get up SR easily (it walls it so bad), and the first action Grounds like Pert or Hippo are going to do against you will be SR. Bold Starmie sounds like the first thing I'd put on that team to ensure hazards are not on the field and it does well against everything I mentioned.
  4. Lord Ninjax

    Lord Ninjax

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    Sounds like a good place to work from, thanks. Should I run a more offensive Starmie to scare off Skarm and SpDef Heatran?
  5. george182

    george182

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    How would a more offensive set help? Bold Starmie is an excellent check to both of those pokemon.
  6. Lord Ninjax

    Lord Ninjax

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    After flipping around some old records I remembered something; one night I was hanging around #frontier and I mentioned I was struggling with DPP Teambuilding, so august, who was on at the time, gave me this nice core of Bold Starmie+MixTar+Roserade, designed to ruin stall via TSpikes crippling common stall mons like Blissey, and keeping hazards off my side with Starmie spinning, and Tyranitar removing Spinblockers. So after looking at it I think that by adding Scarf Rotom-A, to revenge kill, spinblock and beat Breloom (which August mentioned as a big threat to the core) I can make a pretty solid team, along with the earlier mentioned SubToxic Jirachi I can make a pretty solid team, thoughts (I think cause of Jirachi's Toxic I may be able to forgo TSpikes Roserade as a lead for an ST setter, also mention how that sounds).
  7. Twisted Kneebar

    Twisted Kneebar

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    Scarf Rotom isn't a good Breloom check as it only 2HKO's assuming no Sub, 3HKO in the extremely likely event Breloom gets a sub, and is 2HKOed by a Seed Bomb.

    Otherwise it can serve the role of spinblocker well and revenge killer, just dont expect it to counter or even check Breloom.

    Edit: Re: TSpikes Roserade. I've found TSpikes to be the most underwhelming entry hazard because it can be taken away just by entering a poison type + the abundance of steel type pokemon and levitating/flying types means it might not affect over half of your opponents team.
  8. LeoLancaster

    LeoLancaster [please excuse our look during redesign!]
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    So I'm just starting to get into DPP, and I've seen a few references to Rain teams (in Kingdra's and Rotom's analyses). I figure this is a good place to ask: what is the state of Rain teams in modern DPP? How viable are they? How offensive do they lean? Which Pokemon are standard choices on Rain? etc.
  9. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

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    Since rain teams aren't that common and more specialized, you can easily overlook countering them when building teams. You should always have a plan to counter/handle rain because of how dangerous it is.

    Obviously, without Drizzle, rain teams/strategies have to be built to function even if you can't control the weather yourself. You have to work to get the rain on the field and later on again if you have to. This also results in less abusers of it. For the most part, the strategy is offensive. There's hardly any rain stall, though using the defensive benefits of rain in a pinch is possible (like the obvious weakening of Fire moves for Steel-type Pokemon) and helps maximizes its effectiveness. Those are really the only true obstacles for rain in DPP.

    The prime sweeper is Kingdra, no debate there. It may or may not use Rain Dance itself. There's no definite set for it, as there are a bunch of variants of its rain sweeping sets. Most are usually Specially based though (to take advantage of Hydro Pump). Because of its typing and well rounded stats, you / must be careful when facing it. It's hard to tank more than one sweep attempt from it and should be taken out as quick as possible (or remove the Rain Dancer at the very least).

    After that, you're looking at some of the other Swift Swim Users. None are as good as Kingdra, but Kabutops or Omastar have considerable power off the bat. Omastar has a stronger Hydro Pump, while Kabutops has Swords Dance (hard to pull off these days, but then Waterfall becomes overpowered). Ludicolo has the cool typing and hits Grass-types.

    Using offensive Pokémon without Swim Swim in rain is still a thing too. Electrics use Thunder, Starmie is already fast and can use moves that benefit from rain, Jirachi can get an extra turn to attack or set up with a CM set, etc.

    Setting up rain is up to the player. Use RD on a Pokémon who can take advantage of it right away without using another turn to switch/die/etc. or use a dedicated setup to preserve your sweeper's health or save a moveslot. Exploders like Bronzong gets your guy in safely. People often run at least two RD mons, but it's really up to them who runs it.
    LeoLancaster likes this.
  10. BKC

    BKC
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  11. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

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    ^Yup, suicide RD directly to Kingdra. BKC didn't waste time to incapacitate it. He also had his attention on burning turns so the rain could wear off.

    In DPP, you don't need to make a whole team based on rain. Some just go with Kingdra alone and build the team to support it (since rain offense is so quick).
  12. Lord Ninjax

    Lord Ninjax

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    Good mons to use in Rain:
    Scizor: An alternative way to bring in your Kingdra safely is rolling off a slow U-Turn from Scizor, who provides plenty of offensive pressure. Scizor+Kingdra have really good synergy: Scizor resists Dragon while Kingdra resists Fire, and they can serve as a one-two punch against Physical walls, especially if you have DD Kingdra. Rain helps Scizor with taking on Heatran and Magnezone, as with the loss of it's fire weakness, and a little HP/SpD investment, it can take a hit and Brick Break or Superpower on their faces. Scizor also checks Tyranitar, which is really crucial as Tyranitar can remove rain and Pursuit Trap Rotom-W and Starmie, two common mons on Rain teams. Overall one of the best mons for any Rain team to use.
    Rotom-W:
    Starmie:
    Jirachi:
    Bronzong:
    Jolteon:
    Gyarados:
    Ludicolo:
    (I'm kinda busy atm, will update this post when I have time).
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2014
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  13. Twisted Kneebar

    Twisted Kneebar

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    +2 LO Kabutops under rain is the scariest shit ever. Based on my experience, Kingdra and Ludicolo are mandatory on rain. Rain teams are all very offensive, probably because rain lasts only 8 turns. Overall rain is rare but still kicks ass if done right. It's just difficult to run because sandstorm is so common.
  14. dadoux

    dadoux

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    I don't really like playing full rain, specszapdos+ttar is a pretty awful match-up for them.

    Raindra in offense is really cool tho, with his ability to switch on Starmie, which is hard to do in offense, using a full team based around rain is not that great
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  15. Lord Ninjax

    Lord Ninjax

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    Yeah, in my experience Tyranitar is annoying but will lose to Scizor, which is a mandatory Rain mon IMO. Specs Zapdos/Choice Rotom-W can be played around with smart switching, even so, any rain team without a check to fast Specs Electric types with Solid Bulk, (Jolteon can stave them off via Volt Absorbing, plus makes a solid support to Rain teams in general) or Scizor to beat Tar will struggle a lot on the competitive arena.
  16. SOMALIA

    SOMALIA

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    What the fuck are you talking about rabbit? No its not even needed, yo stop posting absolute nonsense

    Nope.
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  17. george182

    george182

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    Constructive...

    Care to detail a scenario where Skarm/Sp.def Heatran achieve anything against a defensive Starmie?
  18. Lord Ninjax

    Lord Ninjax

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    Hey, what's the set/spread for SpDef Celebi? Can't seem to find it in analyses.
  19. Twisted Kneebar

    Twisted Kneebar

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    Same as physical, only switched to special. 252/220 survives 2 LO Starmie Ice Beams. I was quite surprised to learn that Celebi can do that.
  20. Lord Ninjax

    Lord Ninjax

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    No, really? Wow. Thanks for the set btw.
  21. Tomahawk

    Tomahawk If you don't like stroopwafels you got to flikker op
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    Not sure if this the right thread to post this (I assume it is because I do still want to talk about full stall in the current metagame) and I hope it's fine that I'm bumping a few months dead thread.

    Today, I deleted all my full stall teams. I have a bunch of them, not much, and some of them may be a little outdated. However, I sometimes used them even though they've never really been my style. They can sometimes be hard to break through but they have problems like momentum and dealing with the likes of Starmie and others.

    However, yesterday after a good run in the Smogon Tour (ruining some people's chances at playoffs... sorry for that), I ended up in semis. I used one of my favourite teams for Tour the first three rounds, ended up being paired with Twin Citiez who used the same team for the first three rounds. So I used a balance team to defeat him, then back to another offense team vs Nachos. Now, I ended up in semifinals vs Tamahome. I had no idea what team to use, I didn't want to use the same team as I used earlier as he could check replays, or someone else might (it's semis after all) and I decided to go with one of my favourite balanced teams.

    Or that's what I thought at least, when I accepted the challenge I suddenly had a thought of using my 'reliable' stall team and just make safe plays to win. So in less than a second I changed the team and accepted. I immediately regretted this, of course, I've done this before and it usually cost me the match. However I decided I just had to roll with it. I made only safe plays, and within a few turns I switched my Hitmontop into a Tyranitar which turned out to be Choice Band. Stone Edge crit, ignoring Intimidate as well, and it 2HKOed. I had no way of switching into Tyranitar anymore and Starmie + Pursuit Tyranitar made it hard for me to keep up hazards to wear it down as well. I lost, of course.

    I will admit, the team I selected was outdated, but I feel all "full" stall teams might be. I gotta give props to Tamahome as well, he played it out very well and I don't think I would have won either way. Regardless, this is not the first time I've made this mistake, so I deleted all my stall teams today to avoid doing this again. I'm not using full on stall again ever, in DPP at least.

    So I'm interested if other people still use and like ("full") stall teams. One crit can mean a loss, one bad turn and it's very hard to turn it back around against a good opponent. At least semi stall, or defensive balanced, or however you wanna call it has a win condition of itself.

    I really hope to hear that people are still using stall and beating everyone left and right, but I just don't feel it anymore. Maybe this is just a personal thing.

    (Also, sorry if this is a weird post. Very feasible that I am just not good at stall, and the team I used was definitely not good/outdated.)


    Related, do people still use Cradily?
    MoxieInfinite likes this.
  22. McMeghan

    McMeghan Dreamcatcher
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    I haven't seen a Cradily in a while, and you could argue the metagame is a bit less favorable for it atm. There are less Semi-Stall/Bulky Defense teams and most Offenses carry a solid way to deal with it (Metagross, Infernape, Lucario, Breloom and the currently quite popular SD Scizor). I still think it's a solid team choice and deserving of a team spot if you carefully build around it imo.

    Anyway, regarding what you said about Hard Stall: I actually share your feelings regarding the playstyle in general. Not only in DPP. I think Hard Stall is bad and match-up reliant in every generations. As you mentionned it, a Hard Stall aims to play riskfree and kinda net the win through good match-up. That's why a lot of players like it: if the match-up is in your favor, you're likely gonna win with ease.

    I have two main problems with Hard Stall as a playstyle, in every gen:
    • While it's true that a good match-up is probably gonna net you the win with ease, I also strongly think a bad match-up is likely gonna mean that you're gonna have 0 chance at winning. Stall Teams are too passive and lack the options to take a different approach or take the lead if they're in a bad spot, which leads to unwinnable match-ups.
    • If you use Hard Stall, you keep relying on your Pokemons in a defensive way, which means one crit or hax turn and you're in a world of trouble (possibly unrecovable) like in your example. The thing is it's likely to happen as the game drags on (after all, the chance of a crit happening is 1 out of 16, and if you keep switching into offensive attacks, it's gonna happen at some point).
    Regarding the first point, I'll use some examples that served me as hard lessons in the past.

    During SPL 3, in BW1, I was running what I liked the most at the time: a Hard Rain Stall. It featured Politoed, Gastrodon, Skarmory, Tentacruel, Chansey and Mew. I faced SD Heracross with Fighting Gem and a NP Recover Celebi in that game, paired with a bulky Starmie and I had actually 0 way to win that game. The same thing happened in other occasions where I ran Rain Stall and faced a combination of Wobbuffet + CB Ttar. A Hard Stall team always aim at covering every (combination of) threat(s) defensively, but it's impossible to do so, even in DPP. Magnezone, Dugtrio, CB Tyranitar, NP Togekiss, CM Clefable etc, I feel like Full Stall is actually too risky because there are too much Anti-Stall options in every tiers, and you rely on match-up more than with any other playstyle.

    Regarding the second point, I think there isn't much to explain, but let's say Hippowdon is your only way to deal with DD Tyranitar, you're one freeze away from a (most likely unrecovable) loss. Bliss is one also one freeze away from a CM Clefable sweep. Rotom-H is one miss away from preventing a Bulky Scizor sweep. The list goes on.

    Finally, there is an another issue with Hard Stall, and I call it the "hazard match-up", aka the direct match-up between your Hazards Setters in your team and the opposite Spinner, as well as your Spinner match-up with the opposite Hazards Setters.

    Say your Stall answer to Infernape/SD Scizor is Gyarados, your Spinner Forretress and the opposite Rocker Heatran, it's likely you're gonna have to play Rocks up for a while. Which means your opponent has the tools to hard pressure your Scizor answer through double-switches and the like (or can just spam Banded Close Combat with Infernape once Gyarados is under ~65-70% with Rocks up). It can even be worse if you face, say HP Fire Tspikes Roserade with BulkyStarmie or Forretress as your spinner and without carrying a Tspikes absorber on your own.

    In the same way, if you face Bold Starmie with Skarmory/Hippowdon as your Hazards Setters, keeping Hazards up will be difficult (especially if they have a Pursuiter for your Rotom, if you even carry one). Without Hazards, Stall teams have a ton of trouble even breaking through defensive cores with recovery options.

    Add to that the plethora of good Taunt users to deal with (Gliscor, Skarmory, etc), the Trickers and even the Sleepers (Breloom, Roserade mainly, which means one of your Pokemon is off unless it has Sleep Talk, in which case it becomes unreliable because of the very nature of Sleep Talk) and you could understand why I think Hard Stall is bad/too match-up reliant in literally every single tiers and generations.
  23. Go10

    Go10 Storm Vanguard !

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    A= Matchup
    B= Skill
    C= Style points
    D= teambuilding
    X= Pussy player
    X"= Manly player
    Y= Coyotte factor
    Y"= Stress
    Z= Nig level

    Let's say you are a pussyplayer (which is true if we consider what you said about yesterday), then :

    R1 smogon tour = (((X+A)*Y)+((X-A)*Y)))/(X+X")
    R2 smogon tour = [​IMG]Z^x((A+Y)-Y")/(A+(X"*X))
    R3 smogon tour = Y"^3(A²+X)
    R4 smogon tour = (√(D*X)/X²)*(Y"/Z)
    Semi smogon tour = ((Y*X*(D/9)*B*Z)-(X"*D²+B))-π²
    Final smogon tour = X"/2+C-D-A-Z

    I hope that was not too confusing, but all in all, I think you have no chance to win a smogon tour (I'm not even talking about being top16) when you are both a fagget, a nigg and have no skill in teambuilding (unless you are Bloo and have like 55 monkey to do that part for you). Skill and Style points are usually bonus, nothing can affect your matchup and Coyotte factor, so your only hope is maximising your teambuilding and using manly team.
    Keep in mind that you can safely discard every other factor when you have a high Coyotte factor (like McMeghan for example).
  24. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

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    Every gen and tier is a stretch I think, but this how I feel about it in current DPP right now. I think stall was pretty solid pre-Platinum (took over the upper parts of the ladder in the old days and won tournaments). At this day and age though, players are just too crafty and you can find ways to pick apart a stall team and go from there. For instance, what do you do against a heavy onslaught of Special moves? You have Blissey and Snorlax (the latter to a certain extent) as the only true switch-ins for most of them. Others like Celebi, Jirachi, Tentacruel, Tyranitar, and some other lower tier stuff have exploitable weaknesses. Each can be baited or simply forced to predict a move. Since hard stall doesn't usually carry a fast Pokemon (or at least more than one), you just need to get Blissey out the way. Then it just takes one or two Pokemon to clean out the rest, made simple by Life Orb or Specs.

    And like he said, you need to make sure the squad doesn't crumble after someone dies. Bad luck happens, and a bad crit or freeze will fuck you up and you can't really regain momentum at all, just attempt to keep the rest alive.
  25. Tomahawk

    Tomahawk If you don't like stroopwafels you got to flikker op
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    McMeghan: Thanks for the great post. You outlined very clearly also why I'm gonna stop using hard stall. If there was a way where you could double counter every major threat and/or take control of the game in any situation it might be worth it. However, the former is pretty much impossible for the later gens and the latter as well if you want to stick to hard stall.

    Go10: LOL, I'm not sure if I am a pussyplayer just based on semis.. consider the rounds before and it's not that bad ;)

    Aerodactyl Legend: Agreed. Especially special offense can be very dangerous if you can break Blissey. Stuff like Empoleon, Azelf, Gengar, etc. is so hard to deal with without it.

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