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Gen 4 DPP OU General Metagame Discussion

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Aerodactyl Legend, May 6, 2014.

  1. Lord Ninjax

    Lord Ninjax

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    My take: Stall is pretty bad because it's ridiculously hard (maybe even impossible), to cover every relevant threat, and at the same time it's way too passive to have any real control of the game. Plus the slightest amount of luck or a solid predict can open a gigantic hole that you can't really stem (basically gg). I mean, I've used and liked semi-stall, which is really nice, and has a few offensive mons plus hazards to force the pace, but stall is like the same defensive style, but so ineffective at actual momentum that it loses unless you get really lucky with matchup (hard when Offense is at an all time high)
  2. ToF

    ToF
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    you guys are too new to appreciate how good full stall use to be pre bw players thinking they know everything about dpp (not to sound arrogant, it's just a fact). ipl especially use to dominate the ladder when that was actually a competitive means of playing using full stall and a blissey lead for fucks sake. the argument against full stall can be used against any pokemon team - "theres too many threats to full stall like x, y, and z" applies to any play style, be it balanced, full hyper offense, rain, sand, trick room, etc.

    the benefit of using full stall is when you have no idea what your opponent is going to use, what his style of play is or anything of the sort, what's the safest possible strategy you can use? you just autopilot 6 mons that generally cover the metagame and it gives your your best shot of winning UNDER THOSE CONDITIONS. now, you add things like "prior knowledge of play style", "viewing of the players battle logs", and "natural team building tendencies" to the mix and those autopilot conditions are no longer valid. maybe that's why stall has never worked in tournaments except under select circumstances, people naturally prepare for it - when the quality of opponent becomes better so does the creativity and team building. to the guy that lost to tama in tour, would your stall team have won rounds 1 - 3? if i had to objectively guess, i think you could have coasted using full stall for the first few rounds, and then would have required a switch to a team with a little more thought and less autopilot. just the 2 cents of an older dpp veteran.
  3. Tomahawk

    Tomahawk If you don't like stroopwafels you got to flikker op
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    Obviously I don't know everything about DPP, I wasn't even around before Mence / Lati bannings. I'm just saying that I feel right now I don't like stall. Partly a personal thing because I fall back on it when I shouldn't.

    But you are generally right, usually it's easy to win first few rounds with stall. However not in this case since I played KratosMana in round 2 who brought a very offensive team with Gliscor Pass which could have broken most of my stall teams with good play.

    I definitely agree with you though, however i am mainly just talking about tournaments in my post. I definitely agree actually that stall is great on the ladder and also in early rounds in Tournaments. Mostly I also hate not being able to do anything sometimes from very early on and just playing out a loss.
  4. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

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    Thought this should be shared. Perfectly exhibits the craziness and trends that are coming into 4th gen these days. These are 1760 stats of some of the top used Pokemon (not all of them obviously, skipped around). If you look at the other ratings of course, you'll see more of the classic stuff, so be aware of that.

    Show Hide



    +----------------------------------------+
    | Heatran |
    +----------------------------------------+
    | Raw count: 1244 |
    | Avg. weight: 0.0601723815197 |
    +----------------------------------------+
    | Abilities |
    | Flash Fire 100.000% |
    +----------------------------------------+
    | Items |
    | Passho Berry 31.374% |
    | Choice Specs 22.369% |
    | Leftovers 19.242% |
    | Choice Scarf 14.554% |
    | Shuca Berry 7.532% |
    | Other 4.929% |
    +----------------------------------------+
    | Spreads |
    | Timid:4/0/0/252/0/252 41.630% |
    | Modest:36/0/0/252/0/220 10.419% |
    | Modest:4/0/0/252/0/252 6.563% |
    | Timid:0/0/0/252/4/252 6.397% |
    | Calm:244/0/0/0/208/56 6.273% |
    | Timid:0/0/4/252/0/252 4.711% |
    | Other 24.006% |
    +----------------------------------------+
    | Moves |
    | Earth Power 87.729% |
    | Fire Blast 64.827% |
    | Stealth Rock 42.752% |
    | Dragon Pulse 34.752% |
    | Hidden Power Grass 29.678% |
    | Hidden Power Electric 29.469% |
    | Overheat 23.213% |
    | Hidden Power Ice 14.275% |
    | Explosion 12.368% |
    | Substitute 11.706% |
    | Protect 10.259% |
    | Lava Plume 9.907% |
    | Toxic 8.191% |
    | Roar 6.968% |
    | Other 13.906%
    ----------------

    Tyranitar |
    +----------------------------------------+
    | Raw count: 880 |
    | Avg. weight: 0.0791162076963 |
    +----------------------------------------+
    | Abilities |
    | Sand Stream 100.000% |
    +----------------------------------------+
    | Items |
    | Shuca Berry 42.564% |
    | Choice Scarf 26.203% |
    | Lum Berry 21.222% |
    | Passho Berry 5.526% |
    | Other 4.484% |
    +----------------------------------------+
    | Spreads |
    | Jolly:4/252/0/0/0/252 37.933% |
    | Jolly:0/252/4/0/0/252 15.974% |
    | Lonely:248/24/0/104/132/0 13.055% |
    | Hasty:0/252/0/4/0/252 7.915% |
    | Jolly:0/252/0/0/4/252 7.885% |
    | Lonely:112/128/0/60/0/208 4.669% |
    | Other 12.569% |
    +----------------------------------------+
    | Moves |
    | Stone Edge 79.505% |
    | Crunch 71.459% |
    | Pursuit 50.090% |
    | Dragon Dance 44.338% |
    | Ice Punch 43.893% |
    | Earthquake 25.640% |
    | Fire Blast 22.935% |
    | Stealth Rock 20.462% |
    | Payback 13.184% |
    | Superpower 9.122% |
    | Other 19.372% |
    ---------------

    Jirachi |
    +----------------------------------------+
    | Raw count: 735 |
    | Avg. weight: 0.0630825724652 |
    +----------------------------------------+
    | Abilities |
    | Serene Grace 100.000% |
    +----------------------------------------+
    | Items |
    | Leftovers 70.983% |
    | Choice Scarf 25.493% |
    | Other 3.525% |
    +----------------------------------------+
    | Spreads |
    | Jolly:164/168/0/0/0/176 26.087% |
    | Jolly:4/252/0/0/0/252 18.201% |
    | Adamant:4/252/0/0/0/252 9.633% |
    | Timid:252/0/0/108/0/148 7.008% |
    | Modest:16/0/0/248/0/244 5.298% |
    | Jolly:0/252/0/0/4/252 5.062% |
    | Other 28.711% |
    +----------------------------------------+
    | Moves |
    | Iron Head 69.712% |
    | Fire Punch 59.722% |
    | Thunder Wave 39.354% |
    | Substitute 36.459% |
    | Psychic 30.238% |
    | Calm Mind 28.298% |
    | Thunderbolt 25.533% |
    | U-turn 23.094% |
    | Ice Punch 21.701% |
    | Grass Knot 13.265% |
    | Wish 10.718% |
    | Hidden Power Ground 10.221% |
    | Trick 9.295% |
    | Hidden Power Fire 5.303% |
    | Other 17.086%
    ---------------------------------------+

    | Scizor |
    +----------------------------------------+
    | Raw count: 926 |
    | Avg. weight: 0.0439779797987 |
    +----------------------------------------+
    | Abilities |
    | Technician 98.616% |
    | Swarm 1.384% |
    +----------------------------------------+
    | Items |
    | Choice Scarf 59.849% |
    | Choice Band 31.163% |
    | Sitrus Berry 3.766% |
    | Life Orb 2.599% |
    | Other 2.622% |
    +----------------------------------------+
    | Spreads |
    | Jolly:8/252/0/0/0/248 50.954% |
    | Adamant:252/252/4/0/0/0 19.278% |
    | Jolly:0/252/0/0/4/252 5.493% |
    | Careful:252/0/4/0/252/0 3.766% |
    | Adamant:248/252/0/0/8/0 3.483% |
    | Jolly:24/252/0/0/8/224 2.418% |
    | Other 14.607% |
    +----------------------------------------+
    | Moves |
    | Bullet Punch 99.915% |
    | U-turn 95.263% |
    | Pursuit 93.656% |
    | Superpower 93.411% |
    | Other 17.755%

    ----------------------------------------+

    | Metagross |
    +----------------------------------------+
    | Raw count: 525 |
    | Avg. weight: 0.0639932086539 |
    +----------------------------------------+
    | Abilities |
    | Clear Body 100.000% |
    +----------------------------------------+
    | Items |
    | Shuca Berry 51.220% |
    | Leftovers 23.356% |
    | Lum Berry 12.678% |
    | Occa Berry 10.932% |
    | Other 1.814% |
    +----------------------------------------+
    | Spreads |
    | Adamant:120/252/0/0/0/136 35.035% |
    | Jolly:4/252/0/0/0/252 23.407% |
    | Adamant:104/252/0/0/0/152 16.055% |
    | Adamant:248/152/0/0/96/12 10.872% |
    | Adamant:252/220/0/0/4/0 5.187% |
    | Adamant:248/252/0/0/8/0 4.497% |
    | Other 4.947% |
    +----------------------------------------+
    | Moves |
    | Meteor Mash 99.466% |
    | Earthquake 98.744% |
    | Agility 75.995% |
    | Ice Punch 50.686% |
    | Explosion 43.164% |
    | Bullet Punch 18.300% |
    | Other 13.646%
    -------

    Flygon |
    +----------------------------------------+
    | Raw count: 684 |
    | Avg. weight: 0.0172008497478 |
    +----------------------------------------+
    | Abilities |
    | Levitate 100.000% |
    +----------------------------------------+
    | Items |
    | Choice Scarf 39.879% |
    | Choice Band 38.258% |
    | Life Orb 20.500% |
    | Other 1.362% |
    +----------------------------------------+
    | Spreads |
    | Jolly:4/252/0/0/0/252 34.577% |
    | Adamant:0/252/0/0/4/252 24.884% |
    | Mild:0/16/0/252/0/240 7.384% |
    | Hasty:0/60/0/196/0/252 6.405% |
    | Adamant:4/252/0/0/0/252 5.917% |
    | Naive:0/80/0/252/0/176 5.683% |
    | Other 15.149% |
    +----------------------------------------+
    | Moves |
    | Earthquake 99.099% |
    | U-turn 78.945% |
    | Outrage 76.895% |
    | Fire Blast 26.786% |
    | Draco Meteor 21.867% |
    | Dragon Claw 21.625% |
    | Roost 20.120% |
    | Thunder Punch 19.682% |
    | Fire Punch 16.692% |
    | Other 18.289%


    Among other things (like the fact that somebody's been using Milotic hard near the top of the ladder), you can see stuff that can throw an old ladder mindset off. Passho Heatran isn't a new thing at all of course, but look at where Shuca is, at the bottom. Shuca's getting use by some people on Tyranitar though. Beats out Scarf in the last set of stats.

    Sub+Thunder Wave Jirachi, an old classic is doing well. That, plus CM sets, are more used than Choice Scarf (which itself is around a quarter of all Jirachi seen).

    Someone or some people near the top are using Scarf Scizor hard. No qualms about that personally, I love that set.

    Metagross isn't seen as a lead as you get higher on the ladder. It seems to switch solely to offensive (Agility). What's funny to me are the spreads though. Whoever's using it is not too concerned at outspeeding scarfers like Flygon, as shown by using Adamant and 136/152 EVS in Speed. Clearly meant for Heatran (and Dragonite?).

    Flygon itself, isn't changing much except that Choice Band usage goes up to where it's the same as Scarf. However, Flygon was last calculated at 20, so it's usage at the top of the ladder is going down. In general, it has been dropping (only peaks at 7 at around 1500).


    With such small player-bases, ladders matches can look a lot like tournament matches to some extent. People rather use their own sets and spreads instead of copy-pasting the dex imports (a God-awful cancer of a practice that plagues the XY ladders).

    In regards to stall, why it's a notable playstyle, is that it strives to be consistent. When other styles/teams may change around it, its goal is to function the same way and manage threats handily, with an emphasis on the user's skill. However, with the weird changes to the ladder these later years, even stall can't be ready for some of them. Yeah, it can be said for any other playstyle, but with balance/offense, you can at least beat the opponent to the punch.
    Nova and FORTUNE like this.
  5. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area formerly Piexplode

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    I think that this sentiment of stall being worse even if it's just in a tournament setting say isn't held by all the top players though. I think BKC and tamahome are amongst those who favour using stall even in tournaments such as SPL
  6. WAZZUPYOSHI

    WAZZUPYOSHI

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    Let's all face it, DPP is not a stall meta. If you want stall, head over to GSC.
    Apollo. likes this.
  7. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area formerly Piexplode

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    Stall works fine in DPP.
    Offense works fine in GSC. (For what it's worth I actually find the current GSC meta too offensive for my liking!)
  8. Apollo.

    Apollo.

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    I never seen scarf scizor,its really commonly in ST/SPL ?
  9. McMeghan

    McMeghan Dreamcatcher
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    It's not that common, but it's not unpopular either. Right now, I'd say it's the second most used set (1. Bulky SD, 2. Scarf/LO SD, 3. CB).

    Scarf is great at getting mometum, a strong and fast U-Turn is really useful in the tier, especially with Starmie being everywhere. Scarf Pursuit is also neat for Gengar and can take care of Rotom. What I really like about that strong fast U-Turn is that it forces out a lot of Pokemon and allows its teammate to come freely on the field.

    Its main downside is that it doesn't really have a powerful move and really lacks bulk when uninvested. Its coverage coupled with the lack of powerful move is especially dangerous since Scizor already takes the Scarfer spot in the team. It's rare to play with two scarfers, which means ScarfZor teams are typically weak to Infernape and DDers such as Gyarados and Dragonite (both of them outspeed/don't fear Zor at +1, and are dangerous threats for ScarfZor teams lategame).
  10. Shadow_Sneak

    Shadow_Sneak

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    I am hopefully going to revive this thread. With the recent world cup we can see that defensive/stall mons in general just had a hard time. With most of themy having a win rate under 50% (see panamaxis' post in the usage stats thread.) I believe while stall is still a viable play style it has just gotten weaker with everyone just preparing for it. I mean, I am personally a big fan of stall/semi-stall in this tier. I like builds like tamahome's builds I play pretty much every style but still like these fatter styles in this particular tier. I can appreciate full stalls as matchup based as they are. Just make more reasons why stall is bad below or something, also any other particular styles you people have seen /like? Thoughts on ebelt tar? Also would a core of blissey/zapdos/bulky water still be effective in this metagame?

    While this was posted a while ago, Gsc being all stall is a very widespread and misguided misconception, a lot of people prefer offense to stall in that meta.
    xJoelituh likes this.
  11. Lord Ninjax

    Lord Ninjax

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    In response to the above post:
    Most of the reason stall is bad comes from the sheer variety of threats in the tier, meaning it becomes ridiculously match up based against your opponent. It works against noobs (especially those that read Somalia's guides cause though I love the guy his teams are mostly one-dimensional and easy to counterstyle), but against high level players it will fail because they know how to break stall, and the team that is weak to stall in this meta is rare.

    Tamahome's builds to me are more semi-state and fat balance, while he did use more offensive builds in SPL and WCOP.

    My favorite playstyle is Bulky Offense. Plays at a ridiculous tempo while allowing you to take on most major threats decently. Also can usually pack a Stallbreaker.

    EBelt Tar is quite possibly one of the most fun things to use in the metagame, brings a lot to any team and should not be underestimated. Personally I prefer to run a set of Fire Blast, Superpower, Crunch / Pursuit, and Stone Edge / Stealth Rock for maximum coverage along with trapping. Clubs a lot of common things like Heatran over the head while forcing a lot of switches against unsuspecting teams who think they're up against ScarfTar. Pair with DD Gyarados for maximum impact!

    Blissey+Zapdos+Bulky Water is probably a good core for a semi-stall team (despite my own personal hatred of Blissey), and if you try it out it could probably work. I think Tama's build was something to the tune of Hippo+Skarm+Bliss+Rotom+Star+Zap.

    Also DPP is neither a Stall meta nor an offensive meta. It's a meta where any well built team can succeed. As for making it, well, that's up to you.
  12. Shadow_Sneak

    Shadow_Sneak

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    I know why stall in particular is bad I just stated how I like fatter builds in this meta. In particular I just like semi stalls and fat balance in this tier. I do like all other playstyles too, I will play mostly anything.
  13. DSM01

    DSM01

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    So I just had a crazy idea—Poison Point lead Roserade—and I need a second opinion. First off, lead Roserade usually doesn't live very long (sleep something, Leaf Storm or Tspike, die), meaning it often doesn't get that much mileage out of Natural Cure. Burn and poison don't bother it and the only way you'll get slept (aside from lead Rose) is Breloom, where it might be advantageous to stay asleep since you can then switch to your Gyara/Zapdos/Gengar/etc. without worrying about your switch in getting slept. Poison Point's 30% poison rate can surprise U-turn leads like Infernape, Zapdos, and Azelf, get rid of lead Machamp's potential Lum Berry, and makes Roserade slightly more useful as death fodder later in the game.

    One obvious disadvantage is accidentally poisoning something before you can sleep it. However, the only common leads that outspeed Roserade, hit it with a contact move, and are susceptible to poison are CB Ape (which will U-turn), Azelf/Zapdos (their only contact move is U-turn), and Dragonite (Extreme Speed). If they U-turn then poison won't conflict with sleep, though you're still worse off vs. Dragonite. Additionally, there are no defensive mons that could accidentally be regular poisoned by Poison Point that are also suceptible to Toxic Spikes.

    I don't know if this has been previously discussed or if it even deserves to be discussed in the first place, but I figured I'd throw it out there.
    FORTUNE, dice and McMeghan like this.
  14. Typhlito

    Typhlito One Active Dawg
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    Poison is considered the worst status so one could think it's not worth it when you can use other forms of status. That and roses defense is bad so it would prob get 1-2hko'd making that strategy risky. Natural cure is just more consistent since you could rest before switching allowing it to be more useful later on.
  15. Kingler12345

    Kingler12345
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    it's pretty situational tbh, i'd rather natural cure for its incredible utility vs random burns/para/etc. also makes it a better breloom check! I don't see the point in giving that up for a 30% chance to poison on moves that will almost KO you anyways (not all, obviously, but still rose is frail af physically).
  16. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

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    I think Natural Cure is more useful in general in the long run, especially on the lead. But, basically what Badabing said, if you're making a very specific build, then having a built-in Breloom absorber is nice because NC is pretty funky against Breloom sometimes. Note, even with defensive sets and a resistance, you're taking heavy damage from Focus Punch. So it's more of a "do your spikes or other support moves" thing and take the sleep for the team afterwards.

    If it was less frail, then NC would be the better option anyway, as you could sit on Breloom all day and switch away the sleep when it's gone/dead and not be weak to Pursuit.
    badabing and Apollo. like this.
  17. Typhlito

    Typhlito One Active Dawg
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    You know if that's the case, then why isn't sleep talk rose more of a thing? I could see a set like sleep talk/sludge bomb/giga drain/spikes to do wonders if it's being used as a solid answer to loom. Otherwise loom may still beat it if it sleeps too long or sleep another mon on a predicted switch. Just a thought.
  18. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

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    I've never tried that, but it's not used for countering because Breloom can still nab the 2hko with FP with rocks up (252Hp/252Def Roserade has around a 40% chance to be killed). It outspeeds on the regular subpunch set and Roserade needs to be lucky with Sleep Talk. If you EV to beat 239 or 243, you lose defense.
  19. DSM01

    DSM01

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    To clarify, my original comment was only talking about 4/0 lead Roserade, not some secret physically defensive set. The thought process is that lead Rade tends to die quickly so you might as well get random poison on a mon before you die. But now some people are saying Poison Point is viable on defensive Rade??
  20. Apollo.

    Apollo.

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    I agree with you i think poison point for the lead set is better than natural cure cuz you don't really care about your statut since you are a 'suicide lead' and anything except other roserade (speed tie) or scarf breloom(lol) can put to sleep you (other statuts aren't annoying for the lead set )

    Natural cure + rest is the best on defensive rade without doubt if you want recovery
  21. Typhlito

    Typhlito One Active Dawg
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    Guess what I'm trying to say is that because of how frail rose is, I'm not sure how it can be a good answer to loom since like I said earlier, loom can potentially beat it while it's asleep or sleep another mon safely behind the sub it got up after switching rose out.
  22. george182

    george182

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    Bit of a late response but I've been using poison point lead roserade for ages. You will have very few opportunities to actually poison a Pokemon and a 30% chance is rarely worth roserades life, or the momentum loss (it's a very easy Pokemon to abuse once sleep clause is activated).

    The main reason to use it is because you don't want natural cure. Because you want Roserade to be a sleep absorber.

    For example, if you had a swampert on your team, you'll attract a lot of attention from Brelooms so giving rose poison point makes sense.

    But otherwise I'd stick with natural cure, paralysis sucks.
    badabing likes this.
  23. Apollo.

    Apollo.

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    Hey, i recently tested many good mons with forgotten set which haven't been used for a while, so here are my statements :


    • I founded that offensive Heatran was an really good breaker in the metagame; with acces to both of Explosion and Taunt, which allow him to Stallbreak effectively and to lure common checks like Blissey. and with an high special attack paired with the Life Orb boost or the E-Belt one which allow him to Wallbreak and to lure like offensive Tyranitar. I founded it was very good when it was paired with something like Agility Zapdos, which like the fact that Blissey and Tyranitar being lured by Heatran and Metagross, which like the pressure Heatran give to more oriented defensive builds. However, i founded it was very hard to find him an good spot for an team; the lack of an berry of the Choice Scarf make him either weak to offensive Grass types or to lose the ability of being an really helpfull revenge killer.

    • I'd wonder why Agility Zapdos isn't used that much ? ; Few checks which are overhelmed by Breloom, Dugtrio and Pursuit support, ability to remove Suicune which is pretty good, check to Grass types, only Stealth Rock weakness which can be annoying but with Starmie + Scarf Tyranitar (for exemple), you will rarely have rocks on the field if you can exerce an huge offensive pressure on the opposing team. Starmie is also an very good pursuit bait for Zapdos. I'm not seeing why he is inferior to like Empoleon ? (i'd agree that Agility Metagross is better than both of them most of time).

    • Even if sand is everywhere, i founded that Cresselia was a really good mon on stall/semi-stall team, it can be used an support or an calm minder, with the right support you will don't have problem to get rid of his checks, really great bulk which allow him to check infamous Fighting types like Breloom, Machamp and Infernape a little bit. when its paired with Magnezone + Gliscor, All of them can overhelm many Offensive/Balanced team with ease. Rest is the prefered option because of sand.
  24. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Breaking hearts since '09
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    So with the current (suspect) of possibly removing Sand Veil in the metagame in the Policy Review thread, what are people's thoughts on its affects and what would the meta evolve into if it were possibly to get banned?

    I personally feel that SV really breaks Gliscor,, and the metagame would be much better off without random Ice Beams missing only for the Gliscor to either kill/setup/recover or status you.
  25. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

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    1,838
    Use Machamp more.

    In all seriousness, no Sand Veil would drop Gliscor in effectiveness a bit, because the extra turns from the dodges are huge, especially with moves like Substitute, Roost, and other utility shit, plus the high chance of residual damage on the opponent. I mean, he's already good with his stats and moves, but the evasion is so key this late in the game. At 20% dodge, it creates win conditions that wouldn't even exist otherwise.

    The way a lot of smart players would use him, though, is to not put him out in a situation that the evasion would be the first thing to mess the opponent up anyway. You don't send him out on the Surfs and Ice Beams. You send him on the Earthquakes and such and do your move (be it Toxic, Taunt, Agility, SR, U-turn, etc) while they switch, likely something that'll threaten to kill or force it out. The safe thing is to not chance the 80%, so you get Gliscor out of there. So, that doesn't affect how non SV Gliscor would work, so it's not losing much without SV at high level of play. It'll still be annoying to face and a good utility mon, just no longer that element in the room that can potentially switch in at the right time and literally dodge an entire team.

    Whenever I build teams, the last thing before saving is thinking "what about if Gliscor comes in". Many times, I end up having to edit part/half of it just because whatever I build is fucked if it gets behind a sub in sand. No more of that would be one less wacky kind of threat to worry about in teambuilding. Plus, it's no fun when that perfecly timed Trick or Toxic misses.

    Much less reason for Gliscor to sub now? So you're looking at the regular stallbreaker set, Baton Pass, and Swords Dance (with HC), no BS evasion stalling strats. Like I said before, it doesn't overhaul the game. You'd still send out bulky waters to kill it. You just no longer have to watch it dodge an IB to get that Toxic off. Just a healthier meta.
    boo836 likes this.

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