1. The moderators of this forum are Jellicent and Lutra.
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  3. Click here to ensure that you never miss a new SmogonU video upload!

Gen 4 DPP OU General Metagame Discussion

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Aerodactyl Legend, May 6, 2014.

  1. george182

    george182

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2009
    Messages:
    551
    Sand veil gliscor isn't broken...

    It's just good in the metagame atm. Give it 6 months and people will have teams that deal with it better. That's how metagames work.

    It's not very hard to make a team that SD gliscor can't switch into it.

    When all infernapes go back to running hp ice, weavile makes a comeback, hp ice bronzong returns etc. Then you can ban sand veil.

    Alternatively bring latias back.

    But just banning something because it annoys you is plain dumb. I swear this website knows nothing about game balance.
  2. dadoux

    dadoux

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2012
    Messages:
    542
    Sand veil is just unfair because you can have something like hp ice ape and still lose by missing it. This mon doesn't have a lot of counters(you can put 6 mons that can beat him in your team, he doesn't have that much of a natural counter) since he's stupidly bulky even with an offensive spread so if you miss your move on the sub to revenge kill it later you are just donezo. Pokemon is rng-based already, i don't think we need to let a stupid miss turn a game around like that, it's not normal that you can beat a counter by pure luck
  3. george182

    george182

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2009
    Messages:
    551
    Are we also banning Iron Head Jirachi and Hypnosis Gengar, they can beat their counters using pure luck.
    xJoelituh and Apollo. like this.
  4. dadoux

    dadoux

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2012
    Messages:
    542
    Hypnosis gengar is a non-factor in this situation, you have a 60% chance to do what Breloom can do with a full accuracy = put a mon asleep.

    Jirachi is downright unfair too sometimes but at least you can counter it with Heatran or whatever, mons that are implemented in the metagame naturally and that you can have on your team without even thinking of countering jirachi, Gliscor needs specific solutions to deal with it and with the miss chance it can turn around any counter in 1v1, and you are talking about some attacks not an ability that procs on its own regarding the moveset, you have to play jirachi with a physical set to have iron head, giving it more room to counter while you can play gliscor freaking scarfed earth power and still have the nerve to dodge everything.
    Blightbringer likes this.
  5. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2008
    Messages:
    1,836
    Gliscor and Jirachi are hardly comparable in the subject when Jirachi is running off a 60% flinch rate (often coupled with paralysis).
  6. george182

    george182

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2009
    Messages:
    551
    1 flinch isn't the argument... It's when rachi flinches it's way through a rest talk rotom and you've 'won a game you didn't deserve to win'.

    As long as you have scarf raichi, you have a chance to win (against a lot of teams anyway). Which is a similar argument to Gliscor. That's why I compared them. Obviously I don't think Jirachi should be nerfed.

    Anyway I'm kind of on board with the sand veil ban now. I originally thought it was a balance concern.
  7. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2008
    Messages:
    1,836
    That or flinching through Heatran is also gay. However, neither are as likely to happen compared to getting a free turn from Sand Veil. And Gliscor doesn't even need to attempt to stall behind a sub. It's the free turns that allows it to get an extra Toxic, hazards, U-Turn, etc for momentum shifts that your opponent has to spend time removing or playing the rest of the match with.
    Funbot28 likes this.
  8. george182

    george182

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2009
    Messages:
    551
    We're talking about a 20% chance, which is 7-8 flinches in a row. I wasn't arguing that Jirachi is on the same level as Gliscor anyway, just that all the Gliscor complaints fit Jirachi too.
  9. Bad Ass

    Bad Ass Serious as a heart attack!!
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Championis the 2nd Grand Slam Winneris a defending World Cup of Pokemon champion

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2009
    Messages:
    2,696
    george, the argument against sand veil gliscor isn't that it's necessarily broken (too good for the meta and causing everything to centralize around it), but rather that it's fucking stupid and uncompetitive and (here's the important part) makes a lot of scenarios where the better player is not winning games that they should win.

    and i dont think iron head jirachi is comparable. first off, you need to be faster to iron flinch. second of all, jirachi is a weak fucker so what you gain is one free hit (as opposed to a free +2, a free sub, which could easily be used to sweep a team late game). third of all, jirachi needs to string together 60%s whereas gliscor only really needs one to bust through shit.

    and for the record:
    1 flinch = 60%
    2 flinches = 36%
    3 flinches = 21.6%
    4 flinches = ~13%
    5 flinches = ~8%
    6 flinches = ~4.5%
    7 flinches = ~2.5%
    8 flinches = <2%

    so 7-8 flinches is not "about a 20% chance"
  10. george182

    george182

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2009
    Messages:
    551
    My bad, I did 80% for some reason :3
    Shadow_Sneak likes this.
  11. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf meh
    is a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2009
    Messages:
    10,803
    The other issue is active vs passive hax. As bad Ass is alluding to, active requires the actor to fulfill some condition, using a move under certain circumstances for hax to occur, which is inherently limiting in what it can do and allows for greater counterplay as its easier to nullify one of the had conditions. Passive hax requires the actor to do nothing except exist. The only condition required for gliscor to hax is sand to be up, which is why you get these circumstances where even theoretical 100% counters (rest talk hp ice bronzong?) can be beaten. The passivity of the hax is also what allows gliscor the freedom to act in the best way for the situation, attacking or getting free set up as the case may be.
  12. QuickBH

    QuickBH

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2011
    Messages:
    1,133
    No clue why you guys didn't create a special clause for Gliscor because banning Froslass and Glaceon really sucks when you don't even use them for Snow Cloak. This isn't gen 5 where DW abilities exist...

    Is Hyper Cutter a useful ability? Gliscor is a fantastic mon without Sand Veil for sure, but I'm simply curious here.
  13. BKC

    BKC
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis the Smogon Tour Season 16 Championis a defending World Cup of Pokemon championis the Smogon Tour Season 22 Champion

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    1,617
    there are sd sets that abused hyper cutter before the sv ban to lure in gyara and nail it with a +2 edge without hindrance from intimidate, so it's still a fine ability. even on non-sd sets, it can be useful; imagine you're toxic stalling a gyara that switched in and then have to eq something after. hell, it can be useful against hitmontop stall where gliscor is gonna be one of your biggest weapons (finishing it off at low health before it can clear your hazards). so yeah hc is fine.
    george182 and QuickBH like this.
  14. QuickBH

    QuickBH

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2011
    Messages:
    1,133
    Asking another question because I freaking love this metagame and if SuMo goes to hell I'm going back to my gen 4 roots.

    I completely forgot about how to make semi stall teams effective. I've heard Hitmontop stall is very effective, how does one build that? I know Spikes Skarm is mandatory there.
  15. BKC

    BKC
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis the Smogon Tour Season 16 Championis a defending World Cup of Pokemon championis the Smogon Tour Season 22 Champion

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    1,617
    skarm isn't mandatory, roserade is more common on top stall (which usually doesn't have tar, so black sludge will discourage rotom from getting too happy with its trick). if anything is mandatory, it should be restalk gyarados; with all the sr tars running around there's never been a better time to use top and reap the benefits of gyara. double intimidate goes without saying. this also is gonna make it really easy to run blissey and sit on all the zapdos/rd kingdra running around. top is also cool because it dumpsters clefable. just make sure you have a way to keep it healthy
    QuickBH and praj.pran like this.
  16. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT'S FINK DUMBASS
    is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2011
    Messages:
    3,147
    Generally speaking, you need Stealth Rocks and want Spikes. There are dozens of viable Stealth Rock users, but Spikers tend to be limited to Skarmory, Roserade, and Forretress (that order is also the order of how common they are, roughly, but Roserade might be more common on stallier builds tbh). A Spinner (such as Hitmontop, which you mentioned, but alternatively Starmie is one of the most common Pokemon in general while Forretress and Tentacruel are also viable on some teams) is a good thing to have seeing as semi-stall teams don't pressure opposing entry hazards too well and removal of them grants you increased longevity and more effective defensive counterplay. A spinblocker, especially if you're running Spikes, is used on pretty much every DPP semi-stall team and the options here are pretty limited (Rotom tends to be the most common because it's a generally effective Pokemon and it can run a solid Wisp set, that gets it out of being trapped from time to time while providing defensive utility, and an effective Scarf set for revenge killing purposes, but Gengar is a more fragile, but threatening, alternative and Spiritomb has seen sporadic usage in the past, but I wouldn't go around slapping that onto teams). Additionally, a Choice Scarf user is pretty much mandatory in order to serve as a revenge killer and gain control of the pace of the game (Tyranitar is a very common user as it can also trap Starmie, which essentially lets you control the hazard game, Rotom-W, which can be irksome to deal with, Gengar, which can break or annoy most stall teams, and various other things depending on the situation, but Rotom, Jirachi, and some other typical scarfers can be used, too, depending upon the team). Finally, you need to cover all of the necessary defensive checking/countering bases like any other team (things like Breloom, MixNite, generic strongmons, etc tend to do well against semi-stall - lately I've seen a lot of Clefable, RestTalk Gyara, Nidoqueen, Zapdos, etc. as solid defensive components to a bulkier team) and make sure your team isn't too passive (sometimes this is done by using something like Taunt + 2A + Roost LO Aerodactyl, but other things that provide offensive presence or doing consistent damage in general can be used, too).

    Basically, you either need to include or should consider including the following elements to a semi-stall team:
    • Stealth Rocks
    • Spikes
    • Rapid Spin
    • Spinblocker
    • Choice Scarf user
    • Offensive presence / means of doing damage (essentially, make sure your team doesn't just sit there and do nothing all game)
    Fuck BKC for sorta snyping this
  17. Tomahawk

    Tomahawk If you don't like stroopwafels you got to flikker op
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2010
    Messages:
    2,959
    use gyara with top cause that double intimidate is awesome
  18. Oglemi

    Oglemi oh my gosh you found me
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
    Secret Boss Mod

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2009
    Messages:
    12,203
    Can someone tell me what's up with all the zong in tour rn cuz i swear i've seen more in the past couple weeks than i have the past couple years. it kinda looks like lizardman's tr zong team archetype is popular but i can't really fathom why, apart from maybe counteracting all the fucking kingdra going around. speaking of which, what's up with the huge uptick in kingdra? like i get it that it's strong, decently fast, and isn't completely bingbonged by bullet punches which is nice in a sweeper but i haven't seen it actually win any games in forever now cuz everyone's prepared for it
  19. boudouche

    boudouche
    is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    May 22, 2009
    Messages:
    1,124
    zong is one of the safest switchins to the most annoying pokemon in the tier: jirachi
    zong acts as an amazing support on offensive teams :
    - it sets SR up
    - its a flygon switchin
    - it revenge kills all the DD users
    zong is a mon you don't wanna face while using offense :
    - TR + 3 attacks is one of the best cleaners against these teams
    - defensive sets with gyro / eq / toxic have like no real answers on the long term except sd+roost scizor
    zong doesn't care about magnezone
    zong is immune to spikes while taking 6% on SR
    zong is life

    the biggest issue bronzong has is how much of a deadweight it is vs. stall. skarmory and forretress get their spikes for free while restalk rotom and bulky starmie don't care about it. gyro ball having 8 pp, you can't even think about starting a pp war.
  20. Oglemi

    Oglemi oh my gosh you found me
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
    Secret Boss Mod

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2009
    Messages:
    12,203
    that would explain why i never saw zong much a couple years ago when it was guys like tamahome playing the tier
  21. Smurf.

    Smurf.
    is a Past SPL Champion

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2009
    Messages:
    1,182
    heatproof zong @ lum berry fuck you breloom/ape cunts.
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2016
    badabing likes this.
  22. BKC

    BKC
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis the Smogon Tour Season 16 Championis a defending World Cup of Pokemon championis the Smogon Tour Season 22 Champion

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    1,617
    zong also dumpsters agiligross which runs right through a lot of offense and can turn the tables on empoleon. cb is pretty cool because its gyros hit stupid hard straight off the bat and trick cripples stall. and yeah I've been advocating/using heatproof (lead) and/or lum zong, badass used it a lot on one of his teams that he won a tour with. it's great. lum is also nice for obnoxious machamps and as xtra showed with his r1 playoff game, wisp rotom if you run payback. on the subject of payback, honor has used that as a 4th attack on a simple max attack/hp lefties zong that I think is awesome. zong is also excellent at using custap and there have been several instances of it using rain dance to set up specs kingdra.
    badabing and Analytic like this.
  23. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Persona 5
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2009
    Messages:
    5,569
    Haven't played this in years but is DPP OU still the peak when it comes to OU?

    Like, it's obviously not flawless but it was so damn good. It had the perfect balance of fast paced gameplay from the later gens and the slower, more deliberate pace of the earlier gens. It has perhaps the funnest and most memorable set of staple Pokemon, and playing it feels like biting into an apple so ripe that you have to wipe away the juice that discharged afterward. It packs that much punch.

    Damn, I miss DPP
  24. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Breaking hearts since '09
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2015
    Messages:
    1,498
    While the meta is sometimes seen at stale when it comes to common builds such as Tran/Dos/Loom/Flygon/Starmie/filler being so prevalent, I also feel Gen 4 was the best balance wise as it did offer some variety and even encouraged out of the box thinking at times. Sun and Moon may introduce this type of equilibrium again after a couple of suspects, but I always considered Gen 4 to be the template of a balanced meta.
  25. Skeptics

    Skeptics

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2016
    Messages:
    23
    Question from a new-ish player, why is it that I only see mach punch breloom these days? I remember the subpunch set used to be the standard back in the day

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)