Gen 4 DPP OU General Metagame Discussion

Sand veil gliscor isn't broken...

It's just good in the metagame atm. Give it 6 months and people will have teams that deal with it better. That's how metagames work.

It's not very hard to make a team that SD gliscor can't switch into it.

When all infernapes go back to running hp ice, weavile makes a comeback, hp ice bronzong returns etc. Then you can ban sand veil.

Alternatively bring latias back.

But just banning something because it annoys you is plain dumb. I swear this website knows nothing about game balance.
 
Sand veil is just unfair because you can have something like hp ice ape and still lose by missing it. This mon doesn't have a lot of counters(you can put 6 mons that can beat him in your team, he doesn't have that much of a natural counter) since he's stupidly bulky even with an offensive spread so if you miss your move on the sub to revenge kill it later you are just donezo. Pokemon is rng-based already, i don't think we need to let a stupid miss turn a game around like that, it's not normal that you can beat a counter by pure luck
 
Sand veil is just unfair because you can have something like hp ice ape and still lose by missing it. This mon doesn't have a lot of counters(you can put 6 mons that can beat him in your team, he doesn't have that much of a natural counter) since he's stupidly bulky even with an offensive spread so if you miss your move on the sub to revenge kill it later you are just donezo. Pokemon is rng-based already, i don't think we need to let a stupid miss turn a game around like that, it's not normal that you can beat a counter by pure luck
Are we also banning Iron Head Jirachi and Hypnosis Gengar, they can beat their counters using pure luck.
 
Hypnosis gengar is a non-factor in this situation, you have a 60% chance to do what Breloom can do with a full accuracy = put a mon asleep.

Jirachi is downright unfair too sometimes but at least you can counter it with Heatran or whatever, mons that are implemented in the metagame naturally and that you can have on your team without even thinking of countering jirachi, Gliscor needs specific solutions to deal with it and with the miss chance it can turn around any counter in 1v1, and you are talking about some attacks not an ability that procs on its own regarding the moveset, you have to play jirachi with a physical set to have iron head, giving it more room to counter while you can play gliscor freaking scarfed earth power and still have the nerve to dodge everything.
 
Gliscor and Jirachi are hardly comparable in the subject when Jirachi is running off a 60% flinch rate (often coupled with paralysis).
1 flinch isn't the argument... It's when rachi flinches it's way through a rest talk rotom and you've 'won a game you didn't deserve to win'.

As long as you have scarf raichi, you have a chance to win (against a lot of teams anyway). Which is a similar argument to Gliscor. That's why I compared them. Obviously I don't think Jirachi should be nerfed.

Anyway I'm kind of on board with the sand veil ban now. I originally thought it was a balance concern.
 
That or flinching through Heatran is also gay. However, neither are as likely to happen compared to getting a free turn from Sand Veil. And Gliscor doesn't even need to attempt to stall behind a sub. It's the free turns that allows it to get an extra Toxic, hazards, U-Turn, etc for momentum shifts that your opponent has to spend time removing or playing the rest of the match with.
 
That or flinching through Heatran is also gay. However, neither are as likely to happen compared to getting a free turn from Sand Veil. And Gliscor doesn't even need to attempt to stall behind a sub. It's the free turns that allows it to get an extra Toxic, hazards, U-Turn, etc for momentum shifts that your opponent has to spend time removing or playing the rest of the match with.
We're talking about a 20% chance, which is 7-8 flinches in a row. I wasn't arguing that Jirachi is on the same level as Gliscor anyway, just that all the Gliscor complaints fit Jirachi too.
 

Bad Ass

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george, the argument against sand veil gliscor isn't that it's necessarily broken (too good for the meta and causing everything to centralize around it), but rather that it's fucking stupid and uncompetitive and (here's the important part) makes a lot of scenarios where the better player is not winning games that they should win.

and i dont think iron head jirachi is comparable. first off, you need to be faster to iron flinch. second of all, jirachi is a weak fucker so what you gain is one free hit (as opposed to a free +2, a free sub, which could easily be used to sweep a team late game). third of all, jirachi needs to string together 60%s whereas gliscor only really needs one to bust through shit.

and for the record:
1 flinch = 60%
2 flinches = 36%
3 flinches = 21.6%
4 flinches = ~13%
5 flinches = ~8%
6 flinches = ~4.5%
7 flinches = ~2.5%
8 flinches = <2%

so 7-8 flinches is not "about a 20% chance"
 
george, the argument against sand veil gliscor isn't that it's necessarily broken (too good for the meta and causing everything to centralize around it), but rather that it's fucking stupid and uncompetitive and (here's the important part) makes a lot of scenarios where the better player is not winning games that they should win.

and i dont think iron head jirachi is comparable. first off, you need to be faster to iron flinch. second of all, jirachi is a weak fucker so what you gain is one free hit (as opposed to a free +2, a free sub, which could easily be used to sweep a team late game). third of all, jirachi needs to string together 60%s whereas gliscor only really needs one to bust through shit.

and for the record:
1 flinch = 60%
2 flinches = 36%
3 flinches = 21.6%
4 flinches = ~13%
5 flinches = ~8%
6 flinches = ~4.5%
7 flinches = ~2.5%
8 flinches = <2%

so 7-8 flinches is not "about a 20% chance"
My bad, I did 80% for some reason :3
 
The other issue is active vs passive hax. As bad Ass is alluding to, active requires the actor to fulfill some condition, using a move under certain circumstances for hax to occur, which is inherently limiting in what it can do and allows for greater counterplay as its easier to nullify one of the had conditions. Passive hax requires the actor to do nothing except exist. The only condition required for gliscor to hax is sand to be up, which is why you get these circumstances where even theoretical 100% counters (rest talk hp ice bronzong?) can be beaten. The passivity of the hax is also what allows gliscor the freedom to act in the best way for the situation, attacking or getting free set up as the case may be.
 
No clue why you guys didn't create a special clause for Gliscor because banning Froslass and Glaceon really sucks when you don't even use them for Snow Cloak. This isn't gen 5 where DW abilities exist...

Is Hyper Cutter a useful ability? Gliscor is a fantastic mon without Sand Veil for sure, but I'm simply curious here.
 

BKC

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there are sd sets that abused hyper cutter before the sv ban to lure in gyara and nail it with a +2 edge without hindrance from intimidate, so it's still a fine ability. even on non-sd sets, it can be useful; imagine you're toxic stalling a gyara that switched in and then have to eq something after. hell, it can be useful against hitmontop stall where gliscor is gonna be one of your biggest weapons (finishing it off at low health before it can clear your hazards). so yeah hc is fine.
 
Asking another question because I freaking love this metagame and if SuMo goes to hell I'm going back to my gen 4 roots.

I completely forgot about how to make semi stall teams effective. I've heard Hitmontop stall is very effective, how does one build that? I know Spikes Skarm is mandatory there.
 

BKC

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skarm isn't mandatory, roserade is more common on top stall (which usually doesn't have tar, so black sludge will discourage rotom from getting too happy with its trick). if anything is mandatory, it should be restalk gyarados; with all the sr tars running around there's never been a better time to use top and reap the benefits of gyara. double intimidate goes without saying. this also is gonna make it really easy to run blissey and sit on all the zapdos/rd kingdra running around. top is also cool because it dumpsters clefable. just make sure you have a way to keep it healthy
 

Finchinator

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Asking another question because I freaking love this metagame and if SuMo goes to hell I'm going back to my gen 4 roots.

I completely forgot about how to make semi stall teams effective. I've heard Hitmontop stall is very effective, how does one build that? I know Spikes Skarm is mandatory there.
Generally speaking, you need Stealth Rocks and want Spikes. There are dozens of viable Stealth Rock users, but Spikers tend to be limited to Skarmory, Roserade, and Forretress (that order is also the order of how common they are, roughly, but Roserade might be more common on stallier builds tbh). A Spinner (such as Hitmontop, which you mentioned, but alternatively Starmie is one of the most common Pokemon in general while Forretress and Tentacruel are also viable on some teams) is a good thing to have seeing as semi-stall teams don't pressure opposing entry hazards too well and removal of them grants you increased longevity and more effective defensive counterplay. A spinblocker, especially if you're running Spikes, is used on pretty much every DPP semi-stall team and the options here are pretty limited (Rotom tends to be the most common because it's a generally effective Pokemon and it can run a solid Wisp set, that gets it out of being trapped from time to time while providing defensive utility, and an effective Scarf set for revenge killing purposes, but Gengar is a more fragile, but threatening, alternative and Spiritomb has seen sporadic usage in the past, but I wouldn't go around slapping that onto teams). Additionally, a Choice Scarf user is pretty much mandatory in order to serve as a revenge killer and gain control of the pace of the game (Tyranitar is a very common user as it can also trap Starmie, which essentially lets you control the hazard game, Rotom-W, which can be irksome to deal with, Gengar, which can break or annoy most stall teams, and various other things depending on the situation, but Rotom, Jirachi, and some other typical scarfers can be used, too, depending upon the team). Finally, you need to cover all of the necessary defensive checking/countering bases like any other team (things like Breloom, MixNite, generic strongmons, etc tend to do well against semi-stall - lately I've seen a lot of Clefable, RestTalk Gyara, Nidoqueen, Zapdos, etc. as solid defensive components to a bulkier team) and make sure your team isn't too passive (sometimes this is done by using something like Taunt + 2A + Roost LO Aerodactyl, but other things that provide offensive presence or doing consistent damage in general can be used, too).

Basically, you either need to include or should consider including the following elements to a semi-stall team:
  • Stealth Rocks
  • Spikes
  • Rapid Spin
  • Spinblocker
  • Choice Scarf user
  • Offensive presence / means of doing damage (essentially, make sure your team doesn't just sit there and do nothing all game)
Fuck BKC for sorta snyping this
 

Oglemi

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Can someone tell me what's up with all the zong in tour rn cuz i swear i've seen more in the past couple weeks than i have the past couple years. it kinda looks like lizardman's tr zong team archetype is popular but i can't really fathom why, apart from maybe counteracting all the fucking kingdra going around. speaking of which, what's up with the huge uptick in kingdra? like i get it that it's strong, decently fast, and isn't completely bingbonged by bullet punches which is nice in a sweeper but i haven't seen it actually win any games in forever now cuz everyone's prepared for it
 
zong is one of the safest switchins to the most annoying pokemon in the tier: jirachi
zong acts as an amazing support on offensive teams :
- it sets SR up
- its a flygon switchin
- it revenge kills all the DD users
zong is a mon you don't wanna face while using offense :
- TR + 3 attacks is one of the best cleaners against these teams
- defensive sets with gyro / eq / toxic have like no real answers on the long term except sd+roost scizor
zong doesn't care about magnezone
zong is immune to spikes while taking 6% on SR
zong is life

the biggest issue bronzong has is how much of a deadweight it is vs. stall. skarmory and forretress get their spikes for free while restalk rotom and bulky starmie don't care about it. gyro ball having 8 pp, you can't even think about starting a pp war.
 

Oglemi

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the biggest issue bronzong has is how much of a deadweight it is vs. stall. skarmory and forretress get their spikes for free while restalk rotom and bulky starmie don't care about it. gyro ball having 8 pp, you can't even think about starting a pp war.
that would explain why i never saw zong much a couple years ago when it was guys like tamahome playing the tier
 

BKC

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zong also dumpsters agiligross which runs right through a lot of offense and can turn the tables on empoleon. cb is pretty cool because its gyros hit stupid hard straight off the bat and trick cripples stall. and yeah I've been advocating/using heatproof (lead) and/or lum zong, badass used it a lot on one of his teams that he won a tour with. it's great. lum is also nice for obnoxious machamps and as xtra showed with his r1 playoff game, wisp rotom if you run payback. on the subject of payback, honor has used that as a 4th attack on a simple max attack/hp lefties zong that I think is awesome. zong is also excellent at using custap and there have been several instances of it using rain dance to set up specs kingdra.
 
Haven't played this in years but is DPP OU still the peak when it comes to OU?

Like, it's obviously not flawless but it was so damn good. It had the perfect balance of fast paced gameplay from the later gens and the slower, more deliberate pace of the earlier gens. It has perhaps the funnest and most memorable set of staple Pokemon, and playing it feels like biting into an apple so ripe that you have to wipe away the juice that discharged afterward. It packs that much punch.

Damn, I miss DPP
 

Funbot28

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While the meta is sometimes seen at stale when it comes to common builds such as Tran/Dos/Loom/Flygon/Starmie/filler being so prevalent, I also feel Gen 4 was the best balance wise as it did offer some variety and even encouraged out of the box thinking at times. Sun and Moon may introduce this type of equilibrium again after a couple of suspects, but I always considered Gen 4 to be the template of a balanced meta.
 
Question from a new-ish player, why is it that I only see mach punch breloom these days? I remember the subpunch set used to be the standard back in the day