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Gen 4 DPP OU Viability Rankings III

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by BKC, Oct 8, 2015.

  1. Genesis7

    Genesis7 LOIC stay loaded
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    I'm surprised that froslass is so low on the regular and lead rankings. It isn't outclassed as a spike stacker and I can't really think of a lead that completely counters it other than Machamp. I just think it's utility on a complete HO team (hazard stack + spinblocker + sweepers) makes it more relevant than leads like crobat or mons like Donphan.
  2. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

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    Metagross smokes it, as does ScarfTar. Depending on the player, you can either Taunt or U-turn to ScarfTar with other leads. Any slow lead that can't damage it much baits Taunt too. Its attacks are weak, Destiny Bond can be played around, it can't block spinning until you've laid down the Spikes (or made sure whether the opponent is not affected by it much), and what's it gonna do against max Speed Starmie if it's already damaged? All it can do is ensure a single layer of Spikes, which might get spun away. Then you have to use another Ghost to block that...I think it's just average at best in general, and pretty shoddy as a lead. Other Spike leads are bulkier or have some cool bit to ensure more layers (SP on Roserade, Roost on SpD Skarmory).
  3. Tesung

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    I support infernape for S. I don't have too much experience with choice band, but the mere fact it exists takes away starmie as a good check which is huge. The set I use on about half the offenses ill make is mixape, and I honestly think there is almost no reason not to use it on offense. Its fast as fuck for the meta, so its not useless vs offense, and nearly all stalls lack a good way to take it on. Yeah, there is life orb, but it just means you have to play it not like a pussy, and honestly if u can get 2 kills early vs stall that should be enough to win the game. It has literally no safe switchin with rocks on the field, and while its frail, it checks a couple of important things for offense, most notably scizor and ddtar, 2 of the biggest banes to offense (along with lucario/low health emp/probly other stuff im forgetting)

    I see it does have flaws but nothing else breaks and sweeps like it does
  4. Tesung

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    to be s rank you don't have to perform multiple rolls

    keldeo in bw is just an attacker
    lando i in oras when it was s was an attacker

    all that matters is that you dominate the meta
    Slurmz and p2 like this.
  5. Apollo.

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    Keldeo had powerfull water STAB in the rain which it was hard to switch-in,ability to burn with scald,can be used as great revenge killer(can revenge kill volcarona which is one of the biggest threat of the metagame)

    Landorus-I was one of the best stall breaker in the ORAS/XY OU metagame,acces to sheer force which boost attack with secondary effect(also remove LO Recoil from them) and two immunity(ground/electric),large movepool,CM do the work against stall/balance when rock polish is doing the work against offensive team (choice locked keldeo/lando-t in the bad move can be used as setup bait),no real common counter.

    In DPP,most of team are using two check to infernape to handle it (water/flyers/ghost) and infernape take full damage from sr/sand storm/lo recoil (for choice variant just lock yourself in a move is annoying).only the rare slack off ape can be annoying for stall team (and even with that some stall team are using gyarados which is good ape check/counter)

    They can not be compared to infernape.
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2015
  6. dice

    dice

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    u needa pipe down lmao
    GaryTheGengar, Apollo. and col49 like this.
  7. M Dragon

    M Dragon The north wind
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    Infernape does not dominate DPP at all
    It is a huge threat and it has no safe switchings, yes, but it is not nearly as dominant as T-Tar, Jirachi or Heatran.
    Genesis7 and Apollo. like this.
  8. Go10

    Go10 Storm Vanguard !

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    You don't really need to dominate the whole meta, 90% of it is enough and we can safely say that Ape can do it with one hand. While it is not as hard to handle like Tar/Tran/Jira, he is nowhere so easily counterable like say Zapdos, Rotom-A or Breloom in A+.
    People keep talking about hazards, sand, life orb and shit like that, what's the point when half your team has to take suicid action to mitigate the damages you have to take ? Infernape doesn't need the whole day to do his job, and unlike Starmie who is fast and powerful, noone can take a hit when you press the good buttons (and you have 2 buttons, 3 if your spidersens warn you of the Starmie switch).

    Ape isn't as verstaile as the rest of the metagame, but he is league ahead of half of them and can't be compared to the joker in A+ beside Dragonite.

    tldr; keep denying this and you will be anal ravaged everytime you encounter a good Ape. Not like I hate it that way though hehe
    Apollo., Slurmz, M Dragon and 4 others like this.
  9. Jirachee

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    I don't agree with Infernape for S but I do think it should be ranked higher within A+. To me the top 4 in that rank is Zapdos / Rotom / Infernape / Skarmory in no particular order, while the bottom 4 is Scizor / Gliscor / Breloom / Dnite. I really think Dnite should be the last in that rank because it's really reliant on "negative effect items" (LO / CB) and that doesn't really mesh well with its Speed / SR weakness. Especially considering that it has a very hard time fitting Roost on most sets. Still A+ worthy to me but it feels a tad worse than every other poke in the rank.

    A few things feel off to me about the Lead Rankings. First of all, Mesprit and Medicham aren't ranked even though they're in the main list, and they should only be used as leads. Second, I think that the lower ranks should be cleared a bit. D rank has Blissey even though it's one of the worst things you could lead in the metagame, and C rank has stuff like Yanmega and Togekiss (???) listed alongside actually legit leads like Smeargle. I'd remove Blissey entirely and drop Yanmega / Togekiss / Hariyama to D.

    Also, I think you should swap Swampert and Nidoqueen. I don't think Pert is a very good lead at all and it certainly isn't better than Hippowdon. Nidoqueen has the same bad matchups, but it also has the same benefits (like owning Zapdos / Infernape leads) with the added bonus of discouraging U-turn and the ability to capitalize a lot more on good matchups because of Toxic Spikes.

    Venusaur is something that's worth adding in C or D imo. It differentiates itself from Roserade leads by owning p much every Machamp there is as it has the bulk to take an attack in case of Lum. It should probably only lead defensive squads though on which Roserades should be defensive and don't really make for a good lead then. It's p decent.

    Also Mamoswine should probably drop. Just how often do you see lead Mamo anymore? It's just not as good as Ape / Rose / Starmie leads...
    tenkai, badabing and Apollo. like this.
  10. boudouche

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  11. M Dragon

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    So we agree then
    It is not as dominating as the top 3 (the only mons I would consider S mons), but it is definitely a top A+ threat, and definitely better than Breloom. Hard to compare with Rotom-A (spin blocking is huge, and rotom is the best at that) and Zapdos (worse offensively. but zapdos is still a huge threat offensively and a very good mon as a wall).
    I would consider Rotom-A + Nape as the best A+ mons atm, and then Zapdos, Lucario, Dnite, Scizor, and then Skarm and Gliscor. I wouldnt consider Breloom to be near of A+
    badabing likes this.
  12. Lord Ninjax

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    If we're reordering A+ then I'd say something like this:
    Zapdos
    Rotom-A
    Dragonite/Infernape
    Infernape/Dragonite (imo Infernape is just a notch below DNite but if other people want it higher I'll support that)
    Breloom (there are no reasons this thing should drop and anyone who says it should is bone - dead stupid).
    Skarmory
    Scizor
    Gliscor
  13. Go10

    Go10 Storm Vanguard !

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    As I said, I totaly agree with Infernape not being on par in the versatility department with Jirachi, Tran and Tar, but he is ahead of them offensively while his only default being his hard time to come in. He is totally dominating the metagame and can't be compared at all to the mons in A+ ranking, it's a huge joke to do that.

    If you guys think a mons should be in A because he can't as versatile as the rest of the S rank, then so be it, but keep in mind that you are a joke in a lot of good player's eyes because that's not how you are supposed to make a ranking list. Why bother with versatility when the three roles you have are metagame crushing and easy to use ? Ranking list is just a way to show people how hard a pokemon can be to dealt with in any way, some can abuse their resistances and STAB(s), some other crush you with sheer power; anyway, you can't just say "hey X is harder to handle than Y, so Y don't deserve to be in the same tier than X!". That's ... stupid ? Dunno, you tell me. Play some other game if you that's really how you see a ranking list.

    The only tier where versatility really matter is uber because you can't afford a single mistake. S tier in OU isn't the same, even if it cost you a mons, you always have a way to bite their ass back. That's why you rarely see Tar sweeping a whole team alone, while Ape can.

    W/e, I can't care less about ranking, just gave my opinion for the sake of it. I just found funny someone like Starmie who at most kill ONE pokemon and is SO versatile is S while Ape isn't. You are a good player and know how deadly Ape is and how he can sweep easily a team by making 1-2 crazy plays like U-turn right ? right ? right ? right ?
    badabing and Ojama like this.
  14. Lord Ninjax

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    No-one here is denying that Nape is a top tier threat, and I personally hate having to deal with it (Thankfully though my teams aren't weak to it, I always pile on two are three checks that rarely if ever include Starmie). What we (or at least me), are denying is that Nape is worthy of S rank. In every tier the top mons are inevitably the ones that can perform the most roles and do the maximum for their team. Nape......attacks and does nothing else (asides from a utility Mach Punch but that's getting rarer these days). Furthermore, as the wise McMeghan pointed out, Nape is the polar opposite of durable and even resisted hits are going to take their toll on you. People (Frenchmen) say U-Turn is amazing to grab momentum but it forces you to come back in on hazards again and take even more damage, and it offers a free switch - in to Flying types (Gyarados, Dragonite, the terror that is LO Aerodactyl, etc, along with Nidoqueen and other Resists that suddenly threaten to set-up).

    Speaking of that, though Nape has no counters, the number of switch - ins and lures it has is pretty extensive: ScarfTar, Chople Tran, Starmie, Occa Jirachi, Dragonite, variants of Gliscor, Defensive Zapdos, Scarf Rotom-A, Gengar, Gyarados, Scarf Flygon, Hippowdon, Swampert and of course LO Aerodactyl. Though none of these will win against a well played Nape with adequate support on their own, two or three of them can at least keep Nape from devastating them (or at least make sure that it doesn't end in Nape sweeping). Combine with the fact all these mons are pretty easy to slap onto a team and you have a meta where Nape doesn't exactly run rampant, and is not S (it is a killer mon though, and can get past all its counters assuming it lives that long, so mid-high A+ seems fair).

    Edit: after reading Ojama and Go10 's posts more thoroughly, it seems more like they're saying that Nape is basically unbeatable, guarantees wins for mindless U-Turn spam, and generally unbalances the metagame. Not exactly serious on this, but I just wanna know: how would people feel about an Infernape suspect?
  15. Typhlito

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    Although what you say is accurate, you are also saying that it's sometimes necessary to have half your team check one pokemon. That would inevitably open up your team to being beaten by other pokemon. If one pokemon is able to get that kind of response, that would also mean that it's quite influential. Maybe to the point that it may actually be an S mon after all. Just saying.
  16. george182

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    How is ape doing nothing?

    If you give it mac punch it now checks sweepers like lucario, dd tar and empoleon, on top of things it already checks like superaichi.

    As for its role, it's a wall breaker and a sweeper and doesn't require a set up move.

    E.g Breloom and Mix Nite can't sweep, while DD gyarados can't wall break.

    It has all its versatility in one set. Also scarf ape is really really good.
  17. Smurf.

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    sand veil gliscor should be fucking banned. :pirate:
    whistle, Slurmz, aimless and 8 others like this.
  18. Apollo.

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    Unfortunately we can't without breaking cartridge mechanics.
  19. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Breaking hearts since '09
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    We can just ban evasion abilities like in Gen 5, they really don'y add any positives to the metagame.
  20. Apollo.

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  21. Isa

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    and shadow tag was still banned despite the lack of secondary abilities for those guys

    so when is the sand veil ban happening?
  22. Talenheim

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    I don't see your point. Garchomp is already banned, Gabite, Cacturne, and Sandslash are unviable, Dugtrio never uses Sand Veil, and Gliscor can still use Hyper Cutter, so there's going to be literally 0 collateral from this ban. In fact, Hyper Cutter Gliscor wouldn't actually be that bad; it can still BP boosts without the hax backup, and now it can run Stone Edge and bop bulky Gyarados on the switch, due to Intimidate not working;

    252 Atk Life Orb Gliscor Stone Edge vs. 156 HP / 96 Def Gyarados: 248-292 (67 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    as opposed to
    -1 252 Atk Life Orb Gliscor Stone Edge vs. 156 HP / 96 Def Gyarados: 164-194 (44.3 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    Karxrida likes this.
  23. Typhlito

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    You do have to consider how it can affect pokemon like Cacturne/cacnea in uu/lc since hippopotas can set up sand down there... not that I know how well they do in their respective tiers though.
  24. Funbot28

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    Ok so after the Evasion Clause being in place, mons like Froslass should be removed and I think stuff like Gliscor should probably move down a tad bit.
  25. GaryTheGengar

    GaryTheGengar I wanna get me a little oblivion, baby
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    clef shouldn't be more than a subrank less than blissey; magic guard is the best ability in the game. clef has essentially the same movepool and more, about the same def which basically equates to clef's min rolls being akin to blissey's max, and you don't really get 2hko'd by anything other than the most powerful special attacks (gengar lo focus blast, specstran, lo kingdra in rain). sure, you get 3hko'd by a lot more, but magic guard makes such a huge difference in practice, allowing you to not be punished by hazards when your opponent plays on the offensive, as they will against the defensive teams that are home to clef/blissey. you get to ignore the ever prevelant sandstorm as well and leftovers recovery is cool. not to mention that cm + magic guard is always a good combo.

    clefable to A-
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2016
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