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Gen 4 DPP OU Viability Rankings III

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by BKC, Oct 8, 2015.

  1. Tomahawk

    Tomahawk If you don't like stroopwafels you got to flikker op
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    since froslass is banned smeargle could move up :o
  2. Cheryl.

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    [​IMG]
    Weavile to B

    I've been really liking Weavile lately, and I think B- is underestimating his capabilities. He's able to put so much roles into one Pokemon, like Pursuit trapper, fast mon (125 Speed is very good, and it lets him outspeed some Scarfers, mainly TTar), revenge killer with his Speed and priority in Ice Shard, or even as a sweeper with Swords Dance if you wanna go that route. A lot of teams want a good Pursuit trapper that isn't gonna be locked into a move like Scarf TTar, and Weavile fits the bill here. It doesn't get walled by Steel types as well, since it has Low Kick to hit them for good damage (It also OHKOs TTar!) Weavile does have some flaws, like being competed for as a Pursuit trapper by stuff like Tyranitar, being insanely frail, and also being countered by some of the top-notch mons of the tier, like Scizor. But overall, Weavile's good and unique traits, like being a trapper that doesn't rely on a Scarf, and the Ice STAB and priority letting it pose a big threat to mons like Flygon, makes me believe that Weavile is elligible for a rise to B rank.

    EDIT: 800th post <3
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  3. Lord Ninjax

    Lord Ninjax

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    Late Response to Above:
    Clefable isn't that much worse than Blissey (although Bliss to A- would definitely get more traction), but again while it's entirely impossible to wear down it does tend to get hammered by heavy duty Special Attackers (not just the stuff you mentioned but LOTran (esp with Magma Storm: great move), Specs Kingdra (which I saw a bunch laddering for DPLT: it's a good mon), and some more things I can't recall also have a really big chance to 2HKO plus one of the reasons to run Blissey is to shrug off LO Kingdra and Gengar which Clef just doesn't do). Don't forget Subbers: SubCM Suicune and Jirachi aren't particularly common but while Blissey can usually do SOMETHING against them courtesy of how fat it is Cune and Jira can just power through Clef (Taunters like Gengar and Gyarados can also have a field day with it). It also provides big set-up for Fighters: a lot of the time after like Heatran (offensive 4 Atks with a Berry) hits Clef on the switch with Fire Blast he can fall back to Nape/Loom because the Recover is choreographed as anything (kinda like what people do to Blissey in ADV): and those mons are among the last things you want to let in for free: assuming you're running Bulk on Loom (which you should) then you comfortably live an Ice Beam and kill back. Don't get me wrong: it's a good Pokemon, and a nightmare for every stall team (and can throw off a few offences with TWave+Knock shenanigans), but I don't think it's worth A- (though Blissey probably is).

    Weavile is nice but it has a few flaws in the build: it needs all of Ice Shard, Ice Punch, Pursuit, Night Slash, Low Kick to do its job (not including Swords Dance to get a sweeper or Aerial Ace to slay Infernape trying to switch in). Speaking of Nape, it comes in pretty easily on Weavile (Low Kick maxes out at 65% and Weavile never clicks that right away, everything else is shrugged off), and scares it off with Mach Punch, before proceeding to U-Turn around: again, Bulky Loom with Mach and ScarfTran can also revenge it (as they're usually sturdy enough to take an Ice Shard). It does stuff but not enough, and it offers set-up to a bunch of dangerous mons (aside from what I mentioned Gyara with any semblance of bulk investment can take two Night Slashes and set-up, Jirachi and Suicune don't particularly mind Weavile's hits either and kill it with impunity). It does stuff (checking runaway Dragons is super huge and dealing with Starmie can be a gamebreaker), but like Clefable, gives up too much in opportunity to dangerous mons. B-
  4. BKC

    BKC
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    Good time to get this moving again, with DPLT concluding the laddering phase and SPL winding down, with Classic and Tour around the corner. I removed Froslass (RIP my sweet, and to aug's beloved Glaceon as well) and dropped Gliscor to below Lucario in A, I personally think he's still amazing but I suppose with SubSD fading away I can't keep him up there based solely on Britscor, as much as I may love it. Can't wait for the "drop him further" posts...

    I think Breloom and Gengar have been proving that they deserve their rank. Hell I considered moving Gar up to A+ and considering how much of a defining metagame force he used to be (and arguably still is/would be if people remembered he existed [don't read this as a knock against him, he never stopped being great; sometimes Pokes just stop being common for a while]), combined with how he's been terrorizing people recently, make me like the idea more and more by the minute. I'd like some more opinions because the more I use him the more I realize I, among others, am an idiot for not abusing the fuck out of him. However, him as the best A is totally fine.

    I moved Uxie ahead of Cresselia, Uxie has a ton of ways to be an effective lead while Cress is niche, as much as I like the "offensive" dual screener.

    I moved to Nidoqueen to A- because it is consistently fantastic at doing its job and it has a few cool tricks it can pull (bada's Super Fang set comes to mind). I think it deserves to be just ahead of Forretress, behind Roserade.

    I moved Suicune up to A. I think people, myself included, are realizing again how vicious the offensive set is, and are figuring out the best ways to play it. For example, if it's sent in immediately after SR is up with an opportunity for a free CM (think how Gyarados was played on Astral Projection), it's shredding shit. Also offensive CM Roar is amazing for those semistalls that think Skarm is a check to it.

    I moved Milotic to B and honestly I want it higher, but that'd be a bit hasty. The offensive sets continue to excel, I know there are some naysayers but I used the defensive set quite a bit during DPLT and it was also amazing. Shrugging off Heatran and Kingdra better than anything while naturally outrunning most Breloom and actually threatening with Ice Beam once it takes a hit is real nice. It should at least be ahead of Vaporeon.

    I realized Gastrodon isn't on the list, so I added him as the third-highest B- behind Weavile and Togekiss, ahead of Cradily. I personally think he could be higher, but no rush.

    I switched around the S Rank a little to reflect how Jirachi and Heatran are shining right now and how Tar's been getting knocked around a bit (for example you'll be really hard pressed to get off a DD sweep right now).

    I dropped Celebi to the bottom of A- because it really struggles right now and I felt there needed to be a larger distinction between it and Shaymin.

    Clefable is obviously huge right now but I can already see it fading just a little. However the small B+ rank shuffle I did is brings it up to #2, with Bronzong as #1, Magnezone and Abomasnow dropping, and Mamoswine getting his due for being a fucking animal.

    Discuss :D
  5. Lord Ninjax

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    Gengar to A+, it's gotten that good. ScarfTar isn't oh-so common (the meta isn''t being kind and everyone likes MixTar / BandTar these days) and despite the omnipresence of Jirachi and Scizor it still pulls its weight a lot of the time. Also bump Kingdra back up to A, running it on Ladder was eye-opening how lethal it can get, especially with like Mystic Water RD or Specs, both of which grabbed a bunch of surprise kills. SubDD is nice too, I once blocked a Starmie's attempt to spin with it (somehow), and proceeded to set-up everywhere. I think Kingdra's main selling points (at least now) are its easy entry on Starmie, Heatran and some other mainstays plus the fact that he can take a hit and hit back harder a lot of the time. That and it's versatility: it has a million ways to take you to the cleaners which leaves you constantly guessing in terms of checks. Games went wrong with it (like one time when a guy paraed me with BSlam Jirachi and that blocked my Hydro: he then proceeded to flinch me to death), but yeah if done right it can swing through a lot of stuff.

    S changes are fine: Tyranitar is still a beast but the metagame has not been kind to it: Brelooms, Scizors, Perts etc running around everywhere make it hard to put in work. Meanwhile Jirachi's million talents are constantly being abused and people have realised how lethal Berry+4 Atks Heatran is (as well as the forgotten SpDef and Magma Storm variants, trapping a Hippo with Magma Storm before killing it with SolarBeam was one of the best moments of my career). Suicune and Nidoqueen also deserve a bump: they tend to get stuff done regardless of this or that: I saw people use SpDef Nido as a Gengar/Zapdos check a few times and it worked out well for them, while it hits hard with its solid movepool, lays hazards, scouts with Protect and removes TSpikes. Absolute trooper. Suicune meanwhile handles the voracious Gyarados, while not particularly fearing Tran or Loom (who usually tend to abuse Bulky Waters), while constantly threatening to punch a hole in something: I personally prefer going for a Hydro on the free turn which usually puts a huge dent in Rotom-W / Zapdos trying to grab momentum, before going to ScarfTar on their TBolt and finishing them off. Either way, it is effective, can swing a bunch of ways (for example SubCM once set up all over a SpDef Jirachi, while ChestoRest makes a great option too), and handles a few dangerous mons (aside from Gyara it can hold off Dragonite pretty nicely and makes a decent switch-in to Tran), while its checks (Electrics and Grasses) have been dipping in popularity - it could possibly go up even higher off that.

    On the topic of dangerous bulky waters, Gastrodon and Milotic deserve their spots: Tran and the deadly MixNite cannot scratch Milo without Explosion (or hax), while Milo outruns both and threatens to end their run. Also handles the deadlier by the day Kingdra while outrunning Loom (another huge thing, as being Loom bait is terribad). Instant recovery is great too, differentiates it from a lot of other water types. Gastrodon is less offensive but it can't get TrickScarfed which is neat, while PhysDef sets do a nice job acting as a pseudo-Pert with better offenses (to kill MixNites per se), and better SpDef to take random shots from that end of the spectrum (like vs Gengar - Milo benefits from the extra SpDef too).

    Everything on the list is fine, maybe Cune+Milo+Gastro could all move up a bit, same with Jolteon (who also did really well for me laddering: TBolt killed a ton while BPing Subs never got old: one time I threw it to MagmaTran who SolarBeamed the Hippo Switch and called it a day). - Actually nvm Gliscor should go back to the bottom of A, Bliss should drop to A- and Kingdra should jump ahead of Empoleon. Maybe drop Azelf below Gliscor in A too.
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2016
  6. panamaxis

    panamaxis how many seconds in eternity?
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    not that it really matters too much, but you could just throw Walrein in somewhere on the list for the sake of completeness since it has a niche.

    So this post actually has some use:

    Celebi low A- fine, but below forre? I think you're either underestimating celebi or overrating forre or maybe a bit of both. I agree w/ pretty much everything else BKC has said.
  7. SoulWind

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    I think I agree with most of the changes, but as panamaxis mentioned, you need to include some niche mons that aren't on the list, such as: Walrein, Aggron, Ludicolo, Qwilfish, Kabutops maybe.. All of them have a niche and the latter 3 are very dangerous in rain teams (which isn't a common playstyle, but it can be very effective versus most teams), plus have been used succesfully by respected players in this community. At least they're better than fucking Umbreon and Torterra haha
  8. Jirachee

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    the one mon that is overrated on this list is Gliscor. Without Sand Veil memes the SD sets are ok but not that good. The stallbreakers are still dangerous to some teams but they're not as ubiquitous as say pert or hippo and I view it as more of an A- rank threat. I guess you could keep it high for the Baton Pass sets but idk. At least drop it in low A rank, having it above hippo and pert is silly

    I think clef is good in B+. Its effectiveness varies massively between games, as in way more than anything else in DPP. If your opp is weak to it then it might win the game by itself but if their team is packed with strong physical attackers (esp Fighting types) or stuff like LO Heatran that 2HKO you regardless then it's kinda gonna suck.
    Cheryl., badabing and Finchinator like this.
  9. BKC

    BKC
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    Maybe, pana. Celebi does give some teams quite a bit of trouble (thinking Kingdra Empoleon type stuff), but being so U-turn weak and being forced to Recover rather easily is so awful. I gave Forretress as hard a time as anyone when I fell out of favor with it but I've found it can hurt an opposing team a bit more consistently - for example, Forre punishes Swampert's team a lot harder than Cele punishes Breloom's. That said I do like CM and offensive SR to an extent, but for now I think it should stay the way it is, until Bi starts proving itself again.

    I moved Gliscor to the top of A- and didn't even cry that much. I still think it can be A but I'll hold off. I can see Clef dropping soon-ish, but it remains where it is for now.

    I added all the Pokes mentioned by SoulWind:

    [​IMG] low C
    Pairing it with Aboma as required is such a bad way to start a team but if you thought BW SubToxic Gliscor was terrifying, you haven't played Walrein.
    [​IMG]mid C
    Good rain sweeper, cutesy (double) Spiking lead with Taunt, Explosion. Poison Point can be nice if you throw it into a Tyranitar Crunch or a Flygon/Infernape U-turn.
    [​IMG]mid C
    Terrifying rain sweeper, TV-Rocka and myself have played around with sand spinners that weren't at all bad. Might be an okay lead.
    [​IMG]low C
    Good rain sweeper, has a strong Leech set that happens to be an amazing RD Kingdra counter. It's kind of Abomasnow-esque.
    [​IMG] low C
    Its Head Smashes make CB Rhyperior look like a wuss.

    I also decided to kinda go dumpster diving and add some other Pokes to the ranks, although you'll notice none of them are in D is for Dreadful:

    [​IMG] low C
    Amazing speed, sleep move, SubSeed fun, Encore...

    [​IMG] low C
    Yes, a worse Gengar overall, but CM and NP are not something to sneer at, especially considering how they turn Blissey/Clefable into utter setup fodder with Sub. Of course, it doesn't have Focus Blast (some may call this a plus). Lack of Psychic weakness can help with Superachi and its great SpDef has a lot of potential perks. Oh man it even has Heal Bell...

    [​IMG] low C
    Sucker Punch, Pursuit, Fire move of choice, Explosion, can even be useful in death with Aftermath. I used it on a fun Explosion team a long time ago and it pulled its weight, I know Rocka has whipped it out quite a bit as well. Also great to absorb TSpikes.

    [​IMG] low C
    I love Drap, it's got good stats, alright typing and nice moves.

    [​IMG] mid C
    This definitely should've been here earlier, relatively self explanatory.

    [​IMG] low C
    It's "alright" for what it does, harassing the fuck out of Scarftar resistance semistall. Malekith showed it off as a nice lead a few weeks ago.

    [​IMG] mid-high C
    I've thought of several situations where Magneton's extra Speed gives him an advantage over Magnezone, Scarf or not.

    [​IMG] low C
    It's a cute lead, an offensive Forretress. Plus it lures Starmie like a motherfucker and has Explosion hint hint

    [​IMG] mid C
    Yes, I'll take the hardest Gyarados counter you can give me, and I won't mind switching into Heatran either. Gobbling up monstrous attacks like SpecsJolt TBolt and CBGon EQ is also fun.

    [​IMG] low C+
    Slowbro's problem is sometimes that it's the water but doesn't take hits from Heatran very well. Slowking doesn't have that issue, and keeps the Own Tempo that we love to rub in Machamp's stupid face. It can even go on the offensive with Nasty Plot!

    [​IMG] mid-low C
    Stath tossed my shit with it a few times. I think those absurdly powerful Aqua Jets can definitely leave a dent, and of course Waterfall will tear through the Water resist-less defensive teams.

    Things I'm thinking about adding:
    [​IMG] - does general Pert-like stuff, with the benefit of not caring which Hidden Power Zapdos uses (of course Heat Wave blackens it, but you can pivot around that). Its biggest upside for me is completely destroying Jirachi, and resisting things like Tyranitar's Crunch and Dragonite's Outrage can be really handy for when they decide to swing in with a CB. I haven't actually used it though, I know Heist has and someone else I'm forgetting right now, so thoughts pls.
    [​IMG] - dice likes this for some reason. It's kind of like Heatran with an Electric immune, which can be useful for sure. It can run EQ as Ground STAB to keep Bliss/Clef out, and if it runs Earth Power, it's strong enough to make non-Gyara waters uncomfortable (Pert doesn't mind EQ obviously). Also, only a 2x weakness and Solid Rock means that it's not scared of other Tran! 252 SpAtk EP does 66.1 - 78.2% to bulkless Rupt. Again, I haven't used it and dice + I'm sure someone else (Leftiez?) has, so I'm not sure yet.

    Alright. Post away >:D
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  10. panamaxis

    panamaxis how many seconds in eternity?
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    Here's how i would do C rank:

    Mesprit - up to #1 or even bump it up to to C+ rank (though being a subtier below uxie is okay since uxie is usually just better). Probably the easiest mon in C to use and the most consistent.
    Moltres - I'm not sure why this is up so high and yet Yanmega is noticeablyt below it. I understand Moltres is really good if you can keep SR off, but Yanmega is equally as terrifying. I would rank Yanmega and Moltres next to each other, whether that means moltres moves down a bit or Yanmega moves up a bit (probably the latter).
    Medicham / gatr / toxicroak - all fine where they are
    Magneton - too high. I'd put it much lower as magnezone is better like 95% of the time.
    Hariyama - it's fairly decent, but mostly just a bad machamp. I'd put it slightly closer to mid
    Rain sweepers - maybe just a little too high
    Lanturn alakazam and aggron go up closer to mid


    This is my suggestion of order:
    • mesprit
    • moltres
    • yanmega
    • medicham
    • feraligatr
    • alakazam
    • toxicroak
    • lanturn
    • qwilfish/kabutops/ludicolo (probably in that order, but i'd put them all next to each other since you mostly want to use them all for rain anyway)
    • hariyama
    • aggron
    • sceptile
    • everything else (a lot of this stuff is probably just D worthy, unless that's reserved for "is OU but shouldn't be OU"
    (maybe even toxicroak is a little low....water resist is pretty damn awesome)

    Anyone else think Kingdra should be bumped above empoleon now?
  11. Mael

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    i've actually used steelix before. i used both, the bulky one and a choice band set. the choice band set wasn't as bad as expected, since it's typing does allow it to get hits off pretty easily, but the atk-stat and coverage is just not good (even though banded explosion is great for catching some walls like hippowdon). the bulk it has, even without a lot of investment allows it to take stuff like flygons eq and similar, but the lack of lefties makes it kinda unreliable as a check to the stuff it actually wants to check (rachi, nite, ttar etc.).

    the bulky set with lefties is pretty good in my opinion. sure most of the time you're better off just running swampert or hippo, but steelix does have some advantages over those, which would mainly be the ability to switch into cb-nite / cb-ttar a lot better and the fact that it gets explosion. i'd say eq / rocks / gyro are set moves and the 4th leaves a bit of room for toying. i used toxic and protect before, but i found explosion the most useful. usually steelix finds it's a place on teams which need a steel that can switch into jolteon and ttar. since defensive teams can afford to run both hippo and skarm (and are usually better of that way) you'll almost always end up using this on some balanced / bulky offense teams, where getting the boom off against zapdos / suicune / celebi, which try and switch in or set up on you, can open holes for other teammates, just the way explosion always works. protect is also cool though, just because of the lefties recovery and scouting vs flygon, once you're weakend.

    another set, which i haven't used (but i will) and i have seen people use is passho-boom-steelix. people paired that with infernape, scarftran and similar stuff that profits from waters like starmie and gyarados being gone, and that actually looks like a pretty decent set to me. it actually has the bulk to pull off quite a few "ressist-berry + boom" sets (another idea being occa for stuff like nape and heatran). being able to get rocks up and then take out starmie / suicune / gyarados can be pretty great for offensive teams based on stuff like cb-infernape or even agility metagross without tpunch.

    steelix has some other options too. the curse set for example, but that is outdone by hippo, i'd say and it's plethora of weaknesses on the special side of the spectrum (fire blast, surf / hydro etc.) makes it rather hard for steelix to pull off a curse set, especially considering it gets outperformed by hippo and swampert.
    another set that i haven't used but that seems cool is a custap berry set, considering it takes hits like bulky starmies surf with just max hp investment and can be ev'd to take zapdos heat wave and shaymins earth power quite easily, that set might be worth trying. rocks + boom vs certain mons just puts you at an advantage a lot of times.
  12. Jirachee

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    Why not add a C- rank? I think not everything in C is on the same level. Everything under Sceptile is a bit worse than the things over it imo, so you could put the separation there. I'd probably keep Walrein in C though. I don't see much reason for C not to have a third tier since both A and B have 3!

    Also, interesting post about Steelix mael. When I used it I had Roar in the last slot though, which I think is good with Spikes Roserade. I support adding it to the list!

    Also Smeargle isn't as bad as everything else in D rise it to C- please -_-
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  13. Shadow_Sneak

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    Really quickly about the lead viability ranking, remove froslass. Another thing too, maybe we should move up some mons on the lead viability and some down. Just a thought, I can't really think of anything specific right now.
  14. BKC

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    I rearranged C some, put Smeargle in there. Moltres stays as #1 because it has a variety of sets it can use and I think it's overall just a bit better than Mesprit. Everything below Kabutops goes to C-

    Took Froslass out of lead rankings, moved Gengar, Gliscor and Weavile down to C.

    I think Steelix is best when using a bulky Leftovers set, the offensive stuff just seems like it's better done by Metagross / Heatran. That said, I do like the bulky one. Lix goes to C+ between Uxie and Donphan.

    So how about that Camerupt?!
  15. Jirachee

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    seems like this has been dead for a while, but I have a few points that might spark discussion...

    [​IMG]A => A+
    I think this has been discussed a few times already, but I'm now fully behind the Gengar for A+ train. It's just so dangerous and the things that threaten it only seem to get rarer. Between Wisp, Sub, and Explosion sets, it's very easy to customize Gengar for what your team needs. The typing and Speed are just so useful that it's a good addition to like... any team. The good matchup vs Fighting types is especially useful.

    [​IMG]A+ => A
    Rotom is kind of underwhelming in my opinion. The speed difference between it and Gengar is HUGE unless you're using the Scarf set which has its own issues. Defensively it kind of struggles to handle some of the popular Fighting types (most Infernape and Breloom) which kind of makes it pointless. There are still teams that very much appreciate what Rotom does but it's usually not worth it unless you support it well.

    [​IMG]A- => A
    Kingdra is so so scary late game... The RD set in particular can just win games. I think the DD set probably benefited a bit from metagame shifts, and the double dance one in particular is pretty scary. Specs Kingdra is another interesting beast that can just fire off overpowered Dragon STAB moves with little drawback. Seeing Kingdra in general usually isn't good news

    [​IMG]C+ => B+
    This poke seems ranked super low right now. Some teams just have such a hard time taking it on, especially that 3 CM atks set. Cress is also one of the better partners for Dugtrio because it removes a LOT of its checks and Cress can then just stay in on everything else and start firing off boosted Psychics. While it has its issues and can't just be thrown on every team I think that it being ranked alongside Clef and Abomasnow would be reasonable

    [​IMG]B+ => A-
    Zong is a solid addition to many teams because of the typing + ability, and the fact that it's one of the better late game cleaners in DPP. It's certainly not a bad SRer either. Between those 2 sets and fringe options like Hypnosis and Rain Dance it can pull its weight (and more) on just about any team.

    [​IMG]A- => B+
    I find that what Queen gives up defensively for Toxic Spikes sometimes isn't worth it. It tends to get worn down by like... everything, and is set up fodder for a TON of dangerous stuff. If your opponent has an absorber like Roserade your efforts are ruined and you start the game at a big disadvantage. To me it's just too inconsistent to be A- rank

    [​IMG]B => B-
    Venusaur is just so passive... This poke HATES sand and Stealth Rock and just about everything you'll see every game. The extra bulk can be nice sometimes but usually I find it to be just outclassed by Roserade entirely. Not a very good pick in this metagame, in my opinion.

    [​IMG]B- => B
    While it may need a lot of support to succeed, Kiss can be absolutely deadly in the right conditions. With the right things paralyzed it just becomes uncontrollable. The downside is that it adds next to nothing defensively to a team. Still the NP set is just so devastating (we've all seen McM vs Phil in WCoP...)
  16. Lord Ninjax

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    Gengar to A+, Agree, it's just scary af in this metagame. Everything hates status (especially the TTar Jirachi and Scizor that resist your Shadow Balls), Sub pulls a ton of momentum, you check Infernape and Breloom while not losing outright to Pursuiters (since ScarfTar dropped off the map more or less). What's not to like?

    Rotom-W to A, idk, the points are valid but tbf you shouldn't be using rotom to either hardstop fighters on its own or play like Gengar. Definitely takes some prediction and support to work and the rise of PasshoTar sucks for it but ultimately it's still pretty solid (there's this SubSplit set I've been digging that appreciates the shit out of electric stab while being a harder stop to stuff like Scizor and Gyarados that could otherwise kick you to the curb)...keep it A+ for now, but discussion on it could be had.

    Kingdra is so utterly scary these days (as its SPL usage rate and winrate can attest to), I think what really makes it kill is the fact that it's so utterly unpredictable - when it comes in you don't know if it's specs, RD, DD or something weird, and if you switch to the wrong check you can get rolled over by it. Plus 4x Fire and Water resists mean it can come in and set up on a lot of common things, especially if it's got the Lum Berry. A for sure.

    Bronzong is super annoying to play against in that you don't know whether it's Heatproof or Levitate (and again if you call wrong then you just lost something), while SR / hypnosis / utility boom has so much value to a team and it checks a lot of common / scary shit in one slot. Plus there's the fact that OTR is one of the best sweepers on the block, yeah it should definitely move up.

    Don't have strong opinions on the rest (except Cress should definitely go up and Queen should stay where it is)...aside from those I was digging Suicune and Jolteon recently and think that they could both be worthy of a raise, both check a lot of common shit (Suicune checks Dragonite, the above mentioned Kingdra, a few other things, Jolt can come on on Zap's TBolts all day while RKing a lot of other scary mons like star gar nape) in the right scenarios while being incredibly threatening at any point of the game, and both have a ton of ways to screw with their checks (like ChestoRest Cune throws off attempts to status it or just wear it into RKing range, while Smurf's been running Protect to screw with PasshoTran or just randomly get some lefties, while Jolt has SubBP which if played right wins any game). That's all that's on my mind rn.
  17. Malekith

    Malekith Daddy.
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    I think Rotom-A should stay in A+, you are right about it, but when you play rotom ( with/against ) thats not totally true, it is a pain in the ass, can wall/RK almost everything in the meta and playing it properly it can also win the pursuiters.
    dice, Foggi, Deluks917 and 1 other person like this.
  18. ToF

    ToF
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    Some changes based on my SPL run that I would support:

    • Starmie to A+: Look at the win % for Starmie this SPL and I think you'll agree it is not what it once was, everyone over-prepares for it and it has lost some of its luster.
    • Clefable to A-: People are recognizing the utility of Magic Guard as a do-it-all status absorber (especially Paralysis since it cannot FP in the gen), Knock Off, bulk, basically same annoying shit people deal with in ORAS.
    • Cresselia to B+ at minimum, maybe A-: Rise in Dugtrio usage to eliminate Tyranitar means Cress becomes a monster late-game, many players fear the CM booster as an end-game set up monster.

    That is all.
  19. BKC

    BKC
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    Updates coming soon. For now:
    Yeah this is definitely happening. Gengar is so good at whatever role you want him to fill (and Scarf hasn't even been looked into that much... yet!) and he's really shown his stuff.

    The surge in Clefable and Tyranitar's consistently absurd usage really doesn't help. Being forced to rely on Rotom defensively early game is the worst feeling EVER. Obviously it's still a great Pokemon but this, in addition to the lessened importance of ghosts on spiking teams nowadays, means Rotom'll drop. Specs is still a vicious animal though.

    Yep, happening. Specs rules and people have been making use of several very creative strategies related to Rain Dance for a while now.

    B+ is kind of a large jump to make for me. However I will definitely put it at the top of B for now and continue to keep an eye on it.

    This is correct. I also think Choice Band is amazing. Zong'll move up.

    I find Queen's defensive utility to be so unique and its ability to put a lot of teams on a fast-ticking timer even without TS makes me hesitate to drop it. It can also SR if needed. For now it'll stay where it is (it's only ahead of Forretress and Celebi, after all).

    The sleep threat is enormous but yeah Venu can find it hard to wall things well right now. It deserves a slight drop.

    Toge can do a lot of great things as well. It is actually unique defensively in that it handles Gengar and shit like Shaymin/most Kingdra really well. SR weak sucks obv but it does have good use. Definitely deserves a rise.

    Yeah Suicune has made a great comeback. I'll think about bumping it up. Jolt is definitely a great choice for the meta as well but I'm less sure about his recent performances so I'm a bit more hesitant on changing it. It's definitely got what it takes to make a splash though.

    • I hesitate on this because the standard of 3 attacks spin lefties 252/252 is so good at doing what it does. Like getting a fast spin off for offense or revenge killing a million things or weakening Tyranitar for whatever you want, and this isn't even getting into the utility of its other sets (LO/Specs are absurd). It's such an integral, definitive part of the metagame and it's used so damn much for good reason that I'd feel weird dropping it. Like I agree bulky sets are not what they were but the offensive variants are such a crucial component of so many offensive teams that I don't feel it can be dropped (although I'm open to the idea for sure).
    • I think I can get down with this. Clef continues to amaze.
    • I wanna avoid rising Cress too high too fast, especially considering how much support it needs, but yeah it definitely deserves a significant boost. It'll be at the top of B for now.

    Good work guys keep it coming
  20. M Dragon

    M Dragon The north wind
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    I dislike the idea of dropping Rotom-a
    Best spin blocker of the tier, can burn ttar, can trick special walls, can annoy balanced teams with subsplit, one of the best scarf users, the defensive set walls and burns a lot of things... There is a reason why even in a meta that is not very good for Rotom (rise of Clef, dominated by TTar) it is still top 5 in usage

    Also I support Starm dropping to A+. The other S tier mons are much more consistent, and even if I agree that the 3 attacks spin set is very good, it is not good enough to be ranked that high anymore
  21. Foggi

    Foggi Tournament Banned

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    I agree with dropping starmie to a+. With all the passho Trans/Ttars running around starmie has hard time and most of the time it gets off a hit on something, spins then just dies (for offensive variant) while the defensive one is really underwhelming and gets traped easily by any kind of pursuit ttar, It still is an amazing mon but id say abit overrated.

    Another thing that i heavily support is clef in a-/a rank, its really consistent special wall wich has acess to knock off wich supports mons like physical jirachi and can even run stealth rocks on a team that has no better way of setting them up.

    I also want to nominate flygon to a+. It is (in my opinion at least) the most consistent scarfer in the tier wich has also access to really good movepool and provides amazing resists on offensive teams,I agree that the scarf set may lack abit of power but its amazing at doing its job wich is revenge killing things and being a good pivot and thanks to its resists it can switch into alot of things and pivot from there.

    Milotic for B+/A- is another suggestion from me. Milotic is probably the most consistent switchin into mixed attackers and the offensive set is really good hazards abuser with enough bulk to take hits while still doing really big damage.

    Forretress for B+/B. Forretress is not A rank mon imo, i know that it used to be amazing in the past but nowdays its not that consistent and usually ends up being dead weight, theres no real reason to run it over other spikes setters such as Roserade or Skarmory unless you are desperate to have a spinner and even then it is blocked by Rotom wich is most common ghost and its easy to pivot into something that can threaten Forretress on the predicted Payback if it runs it.
    Kingler12345 and Eden. like this.
  22. Lemaitre

    Lemaitre

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    So, froslass is legal again and I'd be interested to hear some thoughts on where it should be ranked. as a suicide lead, it feels comparable to some of the mons in the b+/a- lead rankings in terms of effectiveness and consistency. i prefer to run it with icy wind for azelf/aero/fast shit and in general it's typically able to do its job of getting up spikes/preventing rocks. i'm wondering if the meta has changed enough in the time it's been gone from the tier to cause it function much differently than before, or if froslass's prescence in the tier could cause any other mons to change rank. in general i have pretty limited experience with it so i'm sure there are others who might be able to make a more accurate assessment
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2017
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  23. Jirachee

    Jirachee who dares wins
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    To expand on the above post I think Froslass being free again is a good occasion to revisit the lead rankings in general!

    [​IMG] S => B+
    If there's one lead that lost its luster in the recent year, it's Aerodactyl. There's just so many lead matchups that turn Aero into a liability now, with the worst one being to one of the most common leads, Metagross. Aerodactyl vs Occa Gross often turns into 2 for 1 trades which are really hard to recover from. Machamp is equally as hard to face for Aero, because even if you run the Power Herb set you'll just die to Sash Champ (and give up your rocker in the process.) Aero's biggest strength used to be beating Azelf leads, but the fact is that nowadays there's a very big chance you'll face a Choice set with U-turn, making using Taunt on the first turn a big risk. Aero is very unreliable right now so I think it deserves a big drop.

    [​IMG] A+ => B+
    Tyranitar is one of those leads that are all or nothing. Against things like Zapdos it's absolutely stellar, but then you also have the Machamp / Metagross matchups that are absolutely terrible. Leading Tyranitar requires a lot of preparation for things that are not easy to switch into so I believe it's best kept as a non-lead right now.

    [​IMG] B- => A-
    Uxie is absolutely spectacular when you need SR up early. It hardly ever fails to set them up, never dies to anything, and can actually tilt the momentum in your favor early on without sacrificing itself. Its set is also fairly easy to customize with SR and U-turn being the only requirements in my opinion. This not only helps Uxie as a team player, but also makes it pretty hard for the opponent to predict what it will do.

    [​IMG] B-
    Lass has a big potential payoff although I think it shares Aerodactyl's consistency problems. Metagross, Machamp, and Tyranitar are all very bad matchups for Lass, and Jirachi is potentially disastrous as Scarf Iron Head can basically make it a wasted mon on turn 1. Still I believe it deserves to be ranked alongside leads like Nidoqueen and Raikou that are not quite bad at all

    [​IMG] A- => B-
    I feel like Starmie is best kept as a non-lead because Sash SR leads are not that common and it matches up pretty poorly against a few popular leads, for example Zapdos. There's also a lot of teams that just lead a U-turn Scarf poke and Starmie obviously hates getting U-turned on the first turn only to Hydro a Clefable. Not only that but there 2 common SR pokes that LOVE to come in on Starmie (Clef and Bliss) which kinda... defeats the point of leading it.

    [​IMG] A+ => A-
    The bad thing about Dnite is that while it should in theory beat so many common leads, they all use a set that abuse it. Metagross runs Occa for example, Empoleon beats it with Sash and Ice Beam, Jirachi can run Ice moves, etc. which makes it really prone to get surprise killed turn 1. It's still pretty scary though and I wouldn't go in a battle without preparing for it but there's pretty bad downsides
    Jimmy Turtwig, george182, TDK and 5 others like this.
  24. Wenderz

    Wenderz

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    Another nomination

    [​IMG] : I was wondering if I were blind but I didn't see Weezing anywhere in this VR, despite the fact that this thing is an extremely good choice as a physical Tank since he can deal with a large amount of sweepers including Breloom, SD Lucario, Scizor, Gyarados... Having only one weakness which isn't the that common (Psychic STAB is only used by Jirachi, Metagross, Celebi and Cresselia depending of the set) and access to moves such as Thunderbolt, WoW and Fire Blast/Flamethrower helps a lot. Weezing has flaws though : his best way to heal himself is Pain Split, he cannot prevent Heatran to switch in unless you're using HP Ground and despite being a poison type he doesn't touch the floor so he cannot swallow Toxic Spikes nor can he lay them in DPP. But overall, Weezing checks/counters enough things to be in this VR.

    I agree with every Jirachee's nominations concerning non lead Pokemon (which means Gengar for A+, Kingdra for A...) except for Rotom-A regarding how much versatile this thing is. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to talk about D ranked Pokemon but I think Dusknoir and Porygon-Z should be in C- instead: the former have an easier time than Rotom-A and Spiritomb when it comes to switch on Starmie due to his better bulk (depending of his spread), can threaten Heatran and Tyranitar more easily as well with EQ and is able to counter reliable Machamp unlike Rotom-A since it is slower and doesn't much from Payback. Porygon-Z may have a bad typing but the Choice Specs is extremely hard to switch into if you don't have a Blissey, and even her lose the 1v1 against the NP in most case. The Agilty variant becomes a nightmare if you don't have strong priorities, even though it's hard to set up.
  25. sumwun

    sumwun

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    Why is heat Rotom not on there anywhere? I thought all of the common things, and a few niche things, are supposed to get ranked, and heat Rotom's usage in the high ladder is almost 12%.

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