Gen 4 DPP OU Viability Rankings V2

[Hot N Cold]

Forretress should drop to A- Rank imo

Worse spiker than Skarmory/Roserade and worse spinner than Starmie, hazards + spin is huge I agree but is just too slow, passive, lacks of recovery, is a shame because you only can use a kind of hazards usually and lots of mons pressure him pretty well.

 

[dadoux]

Toxic spikes is pretty cool because it's either Forretress or Roserade (yeah tentacruel but hm...) and forretress is actually nice in some teams, but yeah it's not that good imo

A- is fine with me

 

[george182]

Forretress should drop to A- Rank imo

Worse spiker than Skarmory/Roserade and worse spinner than Starmie, hazards + spin is huge I agree but is just too slow, passive, lacks of recovery, is a shame because you only can use a kind of hazards usually and lots of mons pressure him pretty well.

I think forretress is a solid a rank.

Against defensive teams the threat of rapid spin makes spiking extremely easy. Forretress performs exceedingly well against the skarm, tar, starm, rotom core. It can also punishes any defensive pokemon that doesn't posses a fire move, of which there are a lot. But its ability to force a wall out with the threat of rapid spin and spike up on the switch is forretress' best feature.

Against offensive teams, forretress becomes an excellent spinner. 2hkoing offensive rotom and gengar with payback and its great typing makes it very easy to switch in. If the opposing team has no spinner at all, its really easy to get a rapid spin off, although it has trouble preventing heatran set them back up.

Any kind of offensive team with some walls on like swampert/skarm/blissey hates to see forretress, because its an easy switch in and forretress can do what it wants.

I think forretress performs really well in the current metagame. I am surprised more people don't use it, especially in helping break stall.

 

[Lord Ninjax]

Forretress is pretty nice I know, but does it really break stall? I mean it can beat out common stall teams by Spikes Stacking and keep your side clear by forcing switches, but yeah, its vulnerable to Heatran and Rotom-H (and by vulnerable I mean its running for its life). Hazards+Spin is definitely cool and I've used it on teams from semi-stall to bulky Offense for that purpose, but yeah, being outclassed in both of its roles, low SpDef leaves it vulnerable to neutral STAB hits (Starmie's Surf for example, even if its vulnerable to a Payback), and yeah it has low speed and no recovery: It can break Stall but Offense, especially special Offense, can wear it down fast. Forretress for A-

 

[Twisted Kneebar]

Forry has Pain Split but it doesnt have room to fit that into its moveset so essentially no recovery, yeah.

Forry can actually be broken down by stall thanks to it taking damage from spikes and "only" being neutral to SR. Just keep a bulky Rotom and/or a Heatran to force a switch and Forry will feel the pain big time. The Defensive vs Sp. Defensive argument also doesnt end at just good defense, bad sp. Defense vs being mediocre at both. The defensive set actually has Atk ev's which guarantee 2HKOs on all Rotom's, iirc. Forry is definitely a Pokemon that requires trade-offs.

I actually agree with everything Ninjax said, which makes me think I'm doing something wrong since no one seems to agree with him, lol.

 

[Lord Ninjax]

I actually agree with everything Ninjax said, which makes me think I'm doing something wrong since no one seems to agree with him, lol.

I'm a maverick, plus I've actually started to ladder consistently and learn more about the meta and how stuff matches up in practice.....at ADV/DPP at least.

I'll edit this post in a bit with other proposals, cause now I have nothing.

 

[SoulWind]

i don't see how forretress is breaking stall at all. forretress doesn't kill anything or annoy any stall team because it's a defensive poke....
stallbreaker gliscor, wacan gyarados, cm clefable, etc have a shot at breaking stall because they're very dangerous pokes. forretress is not any threatening to any stall (not even stall just any decent team) because the best it can do is payback? maybe explosion.
starmie is a better spinner than forry and skarmory is a better spiker than it because of its reliable recovery and because it can actually do shit to the opposite team.
i mean, i'm not saying it's a shit spinner or anything, but it just lets up a lot of shit to set up on your face when you maybe want to get rid of stealth rock, and if you're paired up against a stall team rotom will just dgaf about payback because it will burn you and you won't end up spinning unless you trap rotom with tar or manage to weaken it a lot.
tl dr; i think that forretress is fine in A- rank

 

[george182]

i don't see how forretress is breaking stall at all. forretress doesn't kill anything or annoy any stall team because it's a defensive poke....
stallbreaker gliscor, wacan gyarados, cm clefable, etc have a shot at breaking stall because they're very dangerous pokes. forretress is not any threatening to any stall (not even stall just any decent team) because the best it can do is payback? maybe explosion.
starmie is a better spinner than forry and skarmory is a better spiker than it because of its reliable recovery and because it can actually do shit to the opposite team.
i mean, i'm not saying it's a shit spinner or anything, but it just lets up a lot of shit to set up on your face when you maybe want to get rid of stealth rock, and if you're paired up against a stall team rotom will just dgaf about payback because it will burn you and you won't end up spinning unless you trap rotom with tar or manage to weaken it a lot.
tl dr; i think that forretress is fine in A- rank

0.o

You're not trying to kill anything, you're not trying to sweep, you're not using payback, you're not using explosion. Opening holes for sweepers isn't the only way to break stall. Momentum + entry hazards is what you're aiming for and Forretress provides the entry hazards.

You're also not aiming to rapid spin, you're just threatening it.

Forretress has a very easy time getting spikes up, due to the threat of rapid spin. This often forces your opponent to switch to a Rotom and you spike on the switch. You can even stay in against the Rotom and take the WoW/Thunderbolt if you want to be supper aggressive and get more hazards up. Forretress can set up on so many Stall mons: Blissey, Most Tyranitar, Skarmory, Hippowdon, Swampert. It even sets up against Rotom. Forretress is the reason I like to use a fire move on every stall team.

Stall is very reliant on switching... So you switch a lot, forcing them to switch a lot. Spikes are really good against stall and Toxic Spikes can outright win you the game against some stall.

Stall can't really punish you for bringing in Forretress. Most of the time, like I've said, they're forced to go to Rotom.

I know I'm not the only person that does this...

 

[SoulWind]

george182 I was explaining why forretress isn't a "stallbreaker" referring to the above posts in this thread. the way that forretress aim is not damaging anything is the way of why half of the tier can set up on it and therefore making you switch a lot with it. mantaining pressure on forretress is not difficult because most of the time you're bringing forretress rocks are already on your field and you'll be constantly taking hits, which is why it gets worn down easily unlike skarmory and starmie, both of which have a reliable recovery move.

sure forretress can also set up spikes on many stall mons like you said, but that will create the same scenarios as when you bring in forry. you spike, i go to my spinner, you go to rotom to block it or try to damage it with forretress (starmie) doing pitiful damage against defensive versions and all that. not to even mention that if your only way to deal with forre in a stall team is your own rotom then the stall team will kind of suck. there's crobat, heatran, taunt skarmory... there are many ways to make forry become not troublesome

and that's basically why it's inferior to skarm and starmie, it isn't bad, but they end up being more useful in the stall game, which remains back to my point: forry should be A-

 

[george182]

george182 I was explaining why forretress isn't a "stallbreaker" referring to the above posts in this thread. the way that forretress aim is not damaging anything is the way of why half of the tier can set up on it and therefore making you switch a lot with it. mantaining pressure on forretress is not difficult because most of the time you're bringing forretress rocks are already on your field and you'll be constantly taking hits, which is why it gets worn down easily unlike skarmory and starmie, both of which have a reliable recovery move.

sure forretress can also set up spikes on many stall mons like you said, but that will create the same scenarios as when you bring in forry. you spike, i go to my spinner, you go to rotom to block it or try to damage it with forretress (starmie) doing pitiful damage against defensive versions and all that. not to even mention that if your only way to deal with forre in a stall team is your own rotom then the stall team will kind of suck. there's crobat, heatran, taunt skarmory... there are many ways to make forry become not troublesome

and that's basically why it's inferior to skarm and starmie, it isn't bad, but they end up being more useful in the stall game, which remains back to my point: forry should be A-

Well Skarmory/Crobat/Gliscor taunting Forretress requires two turns of correct prediction.
Turn 1, you have to predict the Forretress will use spikes and not rapid spin
Turn 2, you have to predict whether Forretress will use rapid spin or switch out

Assuming each turn is a 50/50 you're playing against the odds.

Switching to a spinner again causes problems. Forretress can use rapid spin on the switch, Forretress can always stay in and rapid spin (unless your spinner is Torkoal xD).

Forretress can always double switch.

It's the threat of rapid spin that makes Forretress so good against Stall.

There are stall mons that can take advantage of Forretress. For example Heatran and Zapdos, but switching them directly in is risking rapid spin.

 

[Lord Ninjax]

Well Skarmory/Crobat/Gliscor taunting Forretress requires two turns of correct prediction.
Turn 1, you have to predict the Forretress will use spikes and not rapid spin
Turn 2, you have to predict whether Forretress will use rapid spin or switch out

Assuming each turn is a 50/50 you're playing against the odds.

Switching to a spinner again causes problems. Forretress can use rapid spin on the switch, Forretress can always stay in and rapid spin (unless your spinner is Torkoal xD).

Forretress can always double switch.

It's the threat of rapid spin that makes Forretress so good against Stall.

There are stall mons that can take advantage of Forretress. For example Heatran and Zapdos, but switching them directly in is risking rapid spin.

But yeah, stall teams usually carry spinners, and some of them, like Bulky Starmie (okay maybe this is more of a SemiStall-Balance-Offense mon but I've seen it used on Stall), can threaten Forretress really nicely by spinning away the hazards and STAB Surf. SR Heatran gets up SR on your side as you switch out, which you are forced to unless you're sacking Forretress. So yeah, while Forretress may match up well against stall, most other teams carry mons that can remove its hazards and set up on it, eg. Starmie, Heatran, you get my point. Though spikes stacking can create pressure in the right circumstances, most Stall teams can remove the spikes with Rapid Spin and they have recovery to heal off the damage. So yeah, Forretress is good in its role, and can serve a valuable purpose for all sorts of teams, but its inability to create pressure beyond hazards and the fact a lot of common stuff sets up easily on it push it down. Forretress for A- (why do you make me repeat this?)

 

[BKC]

starmie doesnt threaten spdef forretress, especially if its a bulky surf set.

 

[Lord Ninjax]

starmie doesnt threaten spdef forretress, especially if its a bulky surf set.

Idk, damage calculators aren't working atm and I've never been in that situation, plus even with investment Forry's SpDef kinda sucks, though yeah, Starmie's SpA is kinda low without investment and Payback still hurts a ton.

 

[BKC]

then you havent played very much dpp. 99% of forretress have been careful max/max for about 5 years.

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress: 208-247 (58.75 - 69.77%)
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress: 165-196 (46.61 - 55.36%) -- 12.5% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress: 160-190 (45.19 - 53.67%) -- 1.95% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Starmie Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress: 127-151 (35.87 - 42.65%) -- 94.63% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress: 127-151 (35.87 - 42.65%) -- 94.63% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Starmie Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress: 102-120 (28.81 - 33.89%) -- possible 4HKO

 

[Twisted Kneebar]

starmie doesnt threaten spdef forretress, especially if its a bulky surf set.

This is true in the short term, not so much in the long term. Starmie can keep on firing off Surf and Hydro Pump thanks to instant recovery and Natural Cure. Forry won't enjoy taking repeated attacks from Starmie and Starmie can also take away all your effort at Spike stacking in one turn.

Starmie doesn't really "threaten" Forry but you just dont want to keep him in on one.

 

[BKC]

payback forces it to recover pretty easily so you can get a free switch to your rotom/scarftar and even if it spins you can set up in its face since its not exactly threatening to ohko you and youre slower so you can try to spinblock next turn. of course forre isnt gonna beat star all by itself but it sure makes it easier for its team.

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

I honestly don't know why people would still run Surf on Starmie, bulky or not.

 

[george182]

I honestly don't know why people would still run Surf on Starmie, bulky or not.

A few examples of the top of my head:

When running Max special attack with leftovers I don't believe you gain any kos by using hydro pump.

If you're relying on bulky starmie to check sp.def heatran with protect, hydro pump can run out of pp

If you're using twave starmie, then hydro pump becomes your only attack and 8pp just isn't gonna cut it.

On scarf starmie you often find yourself sweeping with surf, something that hydro pump sucks at as the chances of consecutive hits get worse and worse. Again a lack of notable kos to warrant hydro pump.

 

[Twisted Kneebar]

I honestly don't know why people would still run Surf on Starmie, bulky or not.

1 reason and one reason only...


"Hydro Pump missed!"

 

[george182]

Why is Torterra in c rank? Or on the list at all...

Does it have any nieche at all in OU?

 

[Jirachee]

Why is Torterra in c rank? Or on the list at all...

Does it have any nieche at all in OU?

RP Torterra is not a bad cleaner with rly strong STABs and good coverage. It's probably one of the weakest C ranks though.

Also, I'm gonna suggest we move Smeargle to at least C, as lead Smeargle is pretty effective. I think it's at least on par with the other C ranks and definitely better than shit like Electivire and Ninjask. Thoughts?

 

[dadoux]

We have a lead rank for that matter, ranking it as an all-around mon only because of the fact that's it's a good lead is not really useful imo

 

[Stef0w]

Im not sure about smeargle tbh, he can f over most leads with magic coat, but why would they not just go straight SR, since smeargle has zero offense, and a meh speed tier.

Spore is p gay tho.

if smeargle moves, yanmega should go up to c+, since it can get out of control with SR screwing it over.

 

[BKC]

Magic Coat is worthless because it only bounces back status in DPP

 

[MoxieInfinite]

sorry for reviving such an old thread, but...

is clefable really not better than B? i mean it saw a bunch of usage in tour, and ive used it personally and i find it fantastic (standard spdef cm boltbeam). whats the justification for not having it higher? personally id put it in B+