DPP Starmie

[Legacy Raider]

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/starmie

I planned on writing a separate analysis for a leading Starmie, but ended up just revamping and expanding on the current LO sweeper instead after receiving jrrrrrrr's feedback. I still have a copy of the separate lead analysis saved though, should we decide it is better to do them separately after all.

[SET]
name: Non-Choice Attacker
move 1: Hydro Pump / Surf
move 2: Thunderbolt / Grass Knot
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Recover
item: Life Orb / Expert Belt
nature: Timid
ability: Natural Cure
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Starmie's good type coverage makes it a respectable sweeper. Hydro Pump is a pretty impressive attack on this set and scores a lot of damage to anything that doesn't resist it. To give some examples: Zapdos is OHKOed after Stealth Rock damage, most Bronzong, Jirachi, and Metagross are 2HKOed, and all Cresselia and Snorlax are 3HKOed. All Tyranitar are 2HKOed by Hydro Pump, and a 32 HP Scizor is OHKOed after Stealth Rock damage, foiling their attempts to Pursuit you.</p>

<p>Hydro Pump is emphasized for STAB because it is required to get some specific kills. Ice Beam and Thunderbolt are used to hit the Pokemon that resist Water. Even though it isn't using any HP EVs, Starmie can still switch into Heatran and Infernape and Recover capitalizes this ability, while also giving you a means of healing off Stealth Rock damage and Life Orb recoil. Natural Cure is a great ability on an offensive Pokemon, and means that Starmie doesn't unduly fear paralysis or random burns or freezes. If you plan on using Rapid Spin, use it over Ice Beam, as it grants less coverage than Thunderbolt does. Be careful when using this as your Rapid Spinner; it is much frailer than normal and Life Orb reduces its survivability.</p>

<p>Grass Knot is an option over Thunderbolt to hit some Waters other than Gyarados and Vaporeon harder if you'd like. Psychic can be used in place of either of Thunderbolt or Ice Beam to OHKO Heracross, as well as being Starmie's strongest option against Tentacruel and Kingdra. Life Orb is the recommended item choice, as Starmie can offset the recoil with Recover, and it doesn't have the highest of Special Attack stats, so the boost is greatly appreciated. However, Expert Belt is still a viable option if you would rather not have to take the recoil at all, since Starmie often finds itself hitting for super effective damage. Because of its great coverage and high Speed, Starmie makes for a great cleaner in the late game; just make sure to remove threats such as Blissey before attempting a sweep.</p>

<p>A set utilizing Rapid Spin in the last slot over Recover makes for an effective anti-lead. Starmie's typing means it naturally resists many of the attacks used by other common leads, such as Infernape's STAB attacks, Azelf's Psychic and Fire Blast, and Metagross' Meteor Mash and Bullet Punch. Rapid Spin is a great boon to a leading set as it allows Starmie to inflict that 1 HP damage required to kill Focus Sashers after having attacked them. This makes Starmie particularly effective in dealing with suicide leads that choose to Stealth Rock on the first turn, such as Infernape, Aerodactyl, and Azelf. Grass Knot is recommended over Thunderbolt on a leading Starmie as Swampert is a common lead, and being able to get a quick OHKO on it is appreciated. The great thing about a leading Starmie used in this way is that it can become a mean sweeper later on in the game as well, and is not just limited to the leading role. Also, its spinning abilities on an offensive set are surprisingly reliable, as it has the power behind it to scare off common spinblockers such as Rotom as well. On offensive teams, Starmie serves as both a powerful sweeper as well a way of allowing the player to use Rock-weak heavy hitters such as Salamence and Gyarados with a lot more ease.</p>

__________________

Starmie vs top 10 leads

1 | Metagross

Hydro Pump vs 252/0 Metagross: 63.7 - 75.3%

252 Atk Earthquake vs Starmie: 54.0 - 64.0%
252 Atk Bullet Punch vs Starmie: 16.1 - 19.5%

Starmie will always come out on top vs Metagross leads, usually retaining much of its health while doing so.


2 | Azelf

Hydro Pump vs 0/0 Azelf: 97.9 - 100%

252 SpA Psychic vs Starmie: 31.4 - 37.2%

Azelf can't touch Starmie without Exploding, and in return, Starmie can Hydro Pump + Rapid Spin to be in a winning situation. The Speed tie is unfortunate.


3 | Infernape

Hydro Pump vs 0/0 Infernape: 100%

252 SpA Fire Blast vs Starmie: 36.8 - 43.7%
4 Atk Close Combat vs Starmie:29.1 - 34.5%

Starmie can quite safely Hydro Pump + Rapid Spin, resisting both of Infernape's STAB attacks. If Infernape is running Grass Knot (which LeadApes very seldom do), it will still only do 65.9 - 78.2% to Starmie, meaning Starmie is pretty safe here regardless.


4 | Jirachi

Hydro Pump vs 80/0 Jirachi: 58.4 - 69.3%

+Atk 252 Atk Iron Head vs Starmie: 26.1 - 31.0%

The possibility of losing to hax here is real, but Starmie resists both of Jirachi's STAB attacks.


5 | Aerodactyl

Hydro Pump vs 4/0 Aerodactyl: 100%
Ice Beam vs 4/0 Aerodactyl: 94.7 - 100% (93.75% chance to KO with Ice Beam + Rapid Spin)

252 Atk Rock Slide vs Starmie: 46.4 - 55.2%

You can usually just Ice Beam + Rapid Spin to beat Aerodactyl, unless it chooses to attack, in which case you can switch out while leaving it at 1%.


6 | Swampert

Grass Knot vs 240/0 Swampert: 100%

Starmie has an easy time here.


7 | Bronzong

Hydro Pump vs 252/96 Bronzong: 50.9 - 60.4%

86 Atk Earthquake vs Starmie: 31.4 - 37.2%

Starmie has the power to 2HKO with Hydro Pump, while Bronzong can't do anything significant in return.


8 | Tyranitar

Hydro Pump vs +1 176/0 Tyranitar: 74.8 - 87.8%

CB +Atk Adamant Pursuit vs Starmie: 97.4 - 100%

This is the only lead that Starmie will lose to. Remember that Azelf dies to Tyranitar guaranteed as well, only Azelf can't do almost 90% damage to Tyranitar in return. Also, Tyranitar was a lead only 3.52% of the time last month, so it's not that common at all.


9 | Hippowdon

Hydro Pump vs 252/88 Hippowdon: 100%

0 Atk Earthquake vs Starmie: 52.1- 62.1%

Starmie scares Hippowdon off with the threat of an OHKO.


10 | Heatran

Hydro Pump vs 0/0 Heatran: 100%

252 SpA Earth Power vs Starmie: 43.3 - 51.0%

Starmie will outspeed and beat Heatran quite easily.

__________________

This is the set I had originally posted, but people seemed to prefer it if the current LO sweeper set on site was expanded on.

[SET]
name: Lead
move 1: Hydro Pump
move 2: Grass Knot
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Rapid Spin
item: Life Orb
ability: Natural Cure
nature: Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>With resistances to many of the attacks other leads commonly run, high Speed, and access to Rapid Spin and a good attacking movepool, Starmie makes a particularly effective lead Pokemon. Water is a great type for Starmie both offensively and defensively - it grants it resistances to the common STAB Fire and Steel attacks run by leads, while also giving it a way to hit almost all other leads for at least neutral, and quite often super effective, damage. Combine that with a Life Orb and Starmie's respectable sweeping stats, and you have yourself a lead that not only excels in the early game, but can also become a mean offensive force later on as well.</p>

<p>The premise of the set is quite simple. Against suicide leads and others that utilize Focus Sash, use an attacking move (usually Hydro Pump for Azelf and Infernape) to bring them down to 1 HP. These frail leads will usually try to set up Stealth Rock first turn, meaning you can now finish them off with a Rapid Spin, thus taking them out while simultaneously clearing your field of Stealth Rock for the rest of the battle. This set particularly shines on offensive teams as it allows the player to use Stealth Rock weak heavy hitters such as Salamence and Gyarados with a lot more ease. As far as spinning goes on these teams, Starmie is one of the best choices out there, as with its Speed, movepool, and Natural Cure ability, it can serve as both a respectable sweeper in its own right, as well as an emergency status absorber if need be.</p>

<p>Hydro Pump is the preferred STAB move for several reasons. Firstly, it is guaranteed to bring Azelf into kill range from Rapid Spin, something that Surf would fail to do. It also gives Starmie the power needed to beat bulkier leads in addition to ones that utilize Focus Sash. Bronzong is always 2HKOed by it unless it is running a particularly specially defensive spread, as is Jirachi, and a max HP Metagross will take an average of 70% from it as well. If Starmie has the misfortune of being faced with a Choice Band Tyranitar lead, Hydro Pump can do up to 88% to it, meaning it won't simply Pursuit you to death with impunity. Grass Knot is chosen over Thunderbolt to get the OHKO on the common Swampert lead, while maintaining a high powered move for use against Gyarados and Suicune. Ice Beam rounds off the set with perfect coverage in OU, getting useful super effective hits on the Grass and Dragon-types that resist the other two moves.</p>

__________________

 

[twash]

I still think Surf needs to be slashed in.

It does a minimum of 50.55% damage to 252 HP / 0 SpD Metagross. I would much, much rather have Surf in this situation than Hydro Pump, which may possibly cost you in this situation (0.4% chance for one of the two Hydro Pumps to miss).

Not hugely helpful against Azelf though, that's agreed.

Helps against Infernape if anything.

Surf is actually more beneficial against 80 HP / 0 SpD Jirachi. Surf has a
65.55% chance to 2HKO, while Hydro Pump has a 64% chance to 2HKO.

It's a better option against Aerodactyl.

Swampert obviously doesn't come into the equation.

Surf is a guaranteed 3HKO on Bronzong. Hydro Pump is a 2HKO 64% of the time -- 36% of the time it will do the same as Surf, if not worse (there's always the chance of it missing more than once). This is probably one of the situations where you want Hydro Pump more. However, if Bronzong is +SpD natured, Hydro Pump will only 2HKO 32%~ of the time, and a 3HKO most of the time. I guess there's still a chance of it only 4HKOing! Surf is still a guaranteed 3HKO, but I'd probably risk the Hydro Pump here.

Surf 2HKOes the listed Tyranitar. Hydro Pump / Surf is a preference move here I guess. (By the way, in the comments you wrote "meaning it won't simply Pursuit you to death with impunity". This is false: Starmie is not exempt from fainting, it is practically guaranteed if the opponent is CB!).

Surf will still OHKO 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon 100% of the time, and will OHKO 252 / 88 SpD Hippowdon on average (66.67% chance). So it's pretty close between Hydro Pump and Surf here.

Against Heatran, Surf will OHKO 92% of the time. Oddly, Rapid Spin does just enough to KO Heatran if he *somehow* survives and gets up SR! I'd much rather run Surf here than Hydro Pump; a 92% chance OHKO compared to an 80% chance of an OHKO.

I hope you take note that Surf is a totally viable option, and should be slashed in LR!

 

[Havak]

I have to agree with Twash on Surf, but I'm generally not fond of "shaky accuracy" moves. Although I'm sure there are many people like me who would like to go with the solidity of Surf hitting. It should definitely be slashed in.

 

[Legacy Raider]

Haha alright Twash, you've convinced me. I slashed Surf in and talked about it in the set comments too. Also, I've edited in my revamp of the LO set (which I renamed Non-Choiced Sweeper, as LO isn't the only recommended item).

 

[Random Pizzaman]

I've been using this set for a long time and agree it's very realiable. Maybe change the name to Anti-Lead? Also, maybe mention recover as a possibility over grass knot, as this helps it stick around longer and work as a good late game cleaner, and Hydro Pump will easily 2KO

 

[MetaNite]

I am dislikeling all this "lead" sets, especially when many of them function well not leading.

The non Choice attacker set and Lead set are quite similiar. I think that Rapid Spin should just be slashed next to Recover and combine the set comments. Why not use the standard Rapid Spinner? You can actually 2HKO the most common spin blocker, Rotom if you use a more offensive set. It is quite effective. After their Ghost is gone you can freely Rapid Spin.

For the attacker set, the main reason to use Grass Knot is for Swampert, so I think that should be mentioned, especially since you won't do much damage with an Expert Belt and Surf.

 

[diinbong]

I am dislikeling all this "lead" sets, especially when many of them function well not leading.

What's the problem with a set being able to function later in the game? This is actually an advantage, and in my opinion, should be standard. People have forgotten that leads are a dire part of a team outside of starting them, and have gotten the mentality (due to the ever-popular Suicide leads) that a lead should just be a suicide attempt to get Stealth Rock up.

The non Choice attacker set and Lead set are quite similiar. I think that Rapid Spin should just be slashed next to Recover and combine the set comments. Why not use the standard Rapid Spinner? You can actually 2HKO the most common spin blocker, Rotom if you use a more offensive set. It is quite effective. After their Ghost is gone you can freely Rapid Spin.

I don't understand your logic in that the defensive set is a "more offensive" set. If two sets function differently then they are worthy of two different articles.

 

[MetaNite]

What's the problem with a set being able to function later in the game? This is actually an advantage, and in my opinion, should be standard. People have forgotten that leads are a dire part of a team outside of starting them, and have gotten the mentality (due to the ever-popular Suicide leads) that a lead should just be a suicide attempt to get Stealth Rock up.

I don't understand your logic in that the defensive set is a "more offensive" set. If two sets function differently then they are worthy of two different articles.

First Paragraph: That's my point diinbong. The set's name is 'lead' yet there is nothing that makes it function worse or better while leading or not, only scenarios.

Second Paragraph: I meant the Rapid Spinner in the analysis, which has no SpA EVs and is the defensive spinner set. I'm saying the LO set could have Rapid Spin slashed, and the reason to use it is because it can 2HKO Rotom. Both the two sets LR posted play the same, bar the leading one is specifically meant to beat leads and has Rapid Spin. If you slash Rapid Spin on the second set, combine the comments and change the name I think it will make the site a lot neater. Food for thought.

 

[Tarquin]

I have used the set as my standard lead for a while now, and I can safely say that Hydro Pump is worth it. This is because of one thing Scizor. Say I KO his lead Swampert with Grass Knot. The opponent LOVES to switch in Scizor at this juncture and Hydro Pump can OHKO offensive versions and will often reduce Scizor to below 12% HP, allowing you to set up SR after Starmie dies to pursuit and make Scizor a non-entity after only 2 turns in the battle.

For this reason, I believe Hydro Pump is needed.

The same applies to lead Tyranitar, Hydro Pump will often bring it into SR KO Range, meaning that if you set up Stealth Rock on their switch after pursuit, they are effectively dead already.

Lastly, Hydro Pump is better for finishing off Magnezones, Rotoms, Skarmory and bulky ground types.

 

[Legacy Raider]

First Paragraph: That's my point diinbong. The set's name is 'lead' yet there is nothing that makes it function worse or better while leading or not, only scenarios.

MetaNite, I understand where you are coming from, but let me explain. The set is similar to the offensive LO set that is currently on site, but the options that make it an optimal lead are secondary options at best on the LO set - Grass Knot and Rapid Spin. Having used this lead quite extensively after Tarquin recommended it, I really think that the efficacy of the set should be pointed out in a separate edit. You say that it functions no better or worse as a lead or anywhere else, but the point is, it is highly effective as a lead, and I feel this needs to be emphasized. It works differently in that its Rapid Spin can be used to take out 1 HP opponents. That's what differentiates it from the standard LO set, on which Rapid Spin isn't and shouldn't be a primary option, and the same goes for Grass Knot. Grass Knot is effective on a lead Starmie because Swampert is the 6th most used lead in OU, so the chances of a lead Starmie meeting a lead Swampert are quite high, much higher than that of a sweeper Starmie meeting the same.

Both the two sets LR posted play the same, bar the leading one is specifically meant to beat leads and has Rapid Spin.

You're contradicting yourself here, and I disagree with you. That the leading one is specifically meant to beat leads and has Rapid Spin means that the two sets in fact don't play the same. The sweeper set uses a Water/Ice/Electric combination (arguably superior for sweeping) with Recover to heal off the LO damage, whereas this set is tailored to take out common leads and utilize Rapid Spin in a way very few other Pokemon can on an offensive team. I agree, there are similarities between the two sets, but don't make the mistake that they play the same. Both are viable and different in their own right.

If you slash Rapid Spin on the second set, combine the comments and change the name I think it will make the site a lot neater.

Slashing the lead set into the sweeper set won't make the site neater - it will clutter it up more and make the sweeper set a lot messier, with the options and explanations for two sets squeezed into one. The lead set is very effective, I'll attest that, and so deserves to have its own edit in which its capabilities and functions as a lead are addressed.

There is no harm in tidying up and having two different, viable sets on site.

 

[cim]

This was already in the analysis in Set Comments for the "Late Game" set. What happened?

 

[Alex Practice]

I love Starmie, but I've never considered using it as a lead. Reading this is making me consider giving it a try. Having a rapid spinner lead is certainly a nice idea. I find that it's sometimes difficult to get my Starmie in to spin. What better way then to have it in from the start?

My only concern is that I wasn't too impressed with Life Orb when I tried it. Choice Specs make it work much better against ghost switch ins that come in to block spin only to take 60% from a specs Hydro Pump >_>
But I guess on a Lead, Life Orb is really superior.

I have had beautiful luck with Hydro Pump, but on a lead, I wouldn't really feel comfortable using it. I think Surf is probably the superior option.

 

[muna]

The set looks good and while I haven't ever used this (or anything similar), it does certainly seem like a viable anti-lead. Just two things that I think you might want to fix:

1. Change the name of the set to Anti-Lead. Starmie is good at defeating common leads, but is not that great of a lead on it's own. I think Anti-Lead is a more fitting name.

2. You wrote that Starmie always comes out on top of Metagross. This will only happen about 72% of the time (the odds of Hydro Pump hitting twice in a row). While those are good odds, you should not write that it will always come out on top.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

This set is the exact same as the Life Orb Starmie set that's already in the analysis, except worse because you have Rapid Spin and no Recover. I don't see the value of this at all.

How is this set more of a lead than any other Starmie set? "Lead" sets are specifically designed to start the match off, this Starmie could be used effectively at any point in the game and its value will not have been compromised. By your standard, every pokemon that can OHKO Azelf and 2HKO Metagross would be called a "lead".

On top of that, this doesn't even hinder people who want to set up SR on the first turn with their suicide leads. Aerodactyl and Azelf both get SR up with their sash and have a good chance of OHKOing you, Metagross isn't OHKOd and can just switch out, and TTar wins either way. This isn't really a good lead or anti-lead. Your entire second paragraph is wrong because Azelf just sets up SR and EXPLODES before you Rapid Spin. The only "suicide lead" that this set beats is Infernape and *maybe* Aerodactyl if Stone Edge misses.

This really isn't anything special. If people are dead set on adding something like this to the analysis, slash Rapid Spin on the current Lorb set and add a paragraph to it saying how well it matches up with common leads.

However, I would support adding your non-choice sweeper set as a replacement for the current Lorb Starmie set. It is more complete of an analysis.

 

[TeaBag]

On top of that, this doesn't even hinder people who want to set up SR on the first turn with their suicide leads. Aerodactyl and Azelf both get SR up with their sash and have a good chance of OHKOing you, Metagross isn't OHKOd and can just switch out, and TTar wins either way. This isn't really a good lead or anti-lead. Your entire second paragraph is wrong because Azelf just sets up SR and EXPLODES before you Rapid Spin. The only "suicide lead" that this set beats is Infernape and *maybe* Aerodactyl if Stone Edge misses.

That's a complete falsehood because Aerodactyl can only stand to 2HKO if it doesn't setup Stealth Rocks while Azelf risks a speed tie. I agree that it's not the best scenario but if you run Gyarados, Salamence, Zapdos, etc. on the same team this Starmie is very beneficial.

 

[MetaNite]

It's not a falsehood, I said "*maybe* Aerodactyl" because I knew its chances were not great.

Azelf is actually faster than Starmie, so it sets up SR and then Explodes no matter what Starmie does. If you Rapid Spin first turn, then it just sets SR up again since you just exposed that you have a Life Orb and not a Sash.

I never said that Rapid Spin Starmie isn't beneficial, I am just saying that it isn't unique.

Actually they face a Speed tie, but I'm pretty much on the same page as you as far as the "Lead" set goes. Aerodactyl will just Stone Edge for the 2HKO, then set up or Stealth Rock. The only time it won't set up or 'beat Starmie' is if you bring in something like Scarf Flygon on the second Stone Edge. I don't think you really brought up Jirachi enough, who will just U-turn for good damage to a counter or Body Slam you for paralysis.

Just because it is specifically designed to take out leads doesn't make it unique or play different. You could just use the LO set to 2HKO Metagross, it plays the same whether the Metagross is leading or not. Just slash in Rapid Spin. I do understand what your saying about being different and clustering the analysis. That's just opinion I suppose, having 2 similiar sets or one big varying set.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

meh metanite I deleted that post like 10 minutes before you quoted it lol...I thought Azelf had 120 base speed. But either way, my point still stands. There are plenty of things that can counter these leads, but Starmie doesn't really stand out. I wouldn't want to risk something as valuable as a spinner is on a lead Life Orb set. There are much better things for Starmie to be doing, and I agree completely with this:

Just because it is specifically designed to take out leads doesn't make it unique or play different.

..except this wasn't specifically designed to take out leads, it is just a neat side-effect. We don't have to add this as a new set, just update the current analysis with this interesting tidbit about Rapid Spin doing the most useful 1% of damage possible.

 

[LoveDensity]

As a fan of anti-leads, I have to say I like this lead. I've used it in 15 battles where I went 13-2 and only leads I lost to was to a T-Punch Jirachi or Endeavor leads. I absolutely messed up Metagross leads which I really love.

Stealth Rock is highly regarded to get some ohkos in DPPt, I feel that as a lead, it stopped a good amount of things with Stealth Rock. But in general, Starmie is a valuable rapid spinner

 

[Tarquin]

The trick to beat up endeavor leads (mamoswine in particular) is to rapid spin on the first turn, breaking their sash and ruining their endeavor. Then go for the Hydro Pump.

 

[cim]

Also that Non-Choice sweeper... I thought that was supposed to be there too. Anyway I've used the set and it's perfectly good, though Hydro Pump you guys are horribly overrating and should never ever be a primary option.

 

[Phyres]

I have seen Legacy raider using it and it works well. He explained how it works against others leads but I want to show that log:

Aero Jet used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around the foe's team!
Starmie used Ice Beam.
It's super effective!
Aero Jet lost 100% of its health.
Aero Jet hung on using its Focus Sash!
Starmie lost 10% of its health.

Aero Jet used Earthquake.
Starmie lost 42% of its health.
Starmie used Rapid Spin.
Starmie blew away the pointed stones!
It's not very effective...
Aero Jet lost 0% of its health.
onizuka92's Aero Jet fainted.
Starmie lost 10% of its health.

 

[Legacy Raider]

Ok, if you want me to recombine the two sets, that's fine. I don't really see the harm in having a separate lead set in which the way it should be used in lead scenarios can be explained in further detail, but if people feel it's better just mentioned in the non-choice attacker's comments, I'll merge them together. I felt that Starmie performs well enough as a lead (really, try it out) for it to have a separate edit, and that by having them combined it would be cluttered and messier.

I've got a saved copy of the separate anti-lead set's comments, should we decide that it is better to keep them separate after all.

 

[LoveDensity]

The trick to beat up endeavor leads (mamoswine in particular) is to rapid spin on the first turn, breaking their sash and ruining their endeavor. Then go for the Hydro Pump.

not unless it EQ first, then ice shard.

 

[Mrobinson587]

not unless it EQ first, then ice shard.

in which case it's a guessing game for both

 

[LoveDensity]

in which case it's a guessing game for both

But of course in that scenario, it stops it from setting up Stealth Rock. Job as an anti lead is done. More to why I like this lead. Probably definitely think this analysis should combine with the current LO set posted.