DPP Starmie

I've been using this set as a lead for a while and I believe that if you plan to play to win each match hydro pump should not be an option at all. Surf is more/as useful in just about every lead situation. If this were the late game set I'd probably leave hydro pump on as SR+HP koing tar is too nice to pass up (plus the extra damage vs steels).
 

Da Letter El

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If you are explaining why using rapid spin over recover would make for an effective lead, you may want to list that as an option next to recover. It's that or split the sweeper and lead into two separate sets.

Honestly, I feel as if this should be split; what moves you could replace rapid spin with, grass knot over t-bolt, viability of expert belt (which is zero on a lead), and the specific justifications in the hydro pump/surf (surf seems superior on the lead, while hydro pump may be better on the sweeper for the nice extra ko's it gets) debate all seem to vary depending on Starmie's function. These seem like major differences to me, even if the actual moves themselves might not be. Also, when the merits of using both sets are different, it seems pretty clear to me that these should be separate sets. Besides, I see no harm in putting up a lead set as a separate set, since the two sets function differently and both are extremely viable.

Just some grammar/wording nitpicks:

Even though it isn't using any HP EVs, Starmie can still switch into Heatran and Infernape. Using Recover allows Starmie to switch into these pokemon without fear of racking up too much damage, while also providing a means of healing off Stealth Rock damage and Life Orb recoil.
Because of its great coverage and high Speed, Starmie makes for a great sweeper in the late game; just make sure to remove threats such as Blissey before attempting a sweep.
On offensive teams, Starmie serves as both a powerful sweeper and a way of allowing the player to use Rock-weak heavy hitters such as Salamence and Gyarados with a lot more ease.
Besides those small things, this seems well-written.
 

Legacy Raider

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Da Letter El said:
It's that or split the sweeper and lead into two separate sets.
I had originally planned on doing this, and had posted a separate anti-lead set for Starmie, but people complained it wasn't different enough from the non-choice attacker to warrant an edit of its own. I personally think a lead set deserves an analysis of its own, in which these preferences you mentioned can be shown separately, as well as its functions in the lead scenario can be explained in more detail. I'd like to reach a consensus on this - should the lead be separated from the non-choice attacker? This peer edit can't really move on much until this consensus is reached =/.

husk said:
I've been using this set as a lead for a while and I believe that if you plan to play to win each match hydro pump should not be an option at all. Surf is more/as useful in just about every lead situation. If this were the late game set I'd probably leave hydro pump on as SR+HP koing tar is too nice to pass up (plus the extra damage vs steels).
Because this one set represents both the leading set as well as the general sweeper set, both are slashed in.
 
Please remember that Anti-Lead Starmie can often return in the late game and act as a clean up sweeper, which makes Hydro Pump very useful to carry for later on. This allows Starmie to fulfill both purposes to great affect.
 

Da Letter El

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Please remember that Anti-Lead Starmie can often return in the late game and act as a clean up sweeper, which makes Hydro Pump very useful to carry for later on. This allows Starmie to fulfill both purposes to great affect.
Honestly, I feel like the lead should try to focus mainly on doing its main thing: leading/taking out other leads. Having surf late-game if this manages to survive as a lead isn't bad, especially when late-game, odds are that the pokemon that you'll be facing have taken damage before, whether from sandstorm, switching in previously into rocks, or just being hit. I would much rather have a reliable late-game attack than a useful, but riskier, more mid-game attack on a lead, considering the lead probably wouldn't have recover to do well mid-game anyway. Besides, leads die. A LOT. I'd like to make my use out of a lead as much as possible, and surf seems to do that.

However, yes, hydro pump definitely does have it's merits, which is why it would be an option on a lead; it's left to debate, preference, and how one wants the Starmie to function on their team. Still, surf seems to be the superior option to me on a lead set.

One the sweeper set, yes, hydro pump is probably better; being able to get ko's that surf doesn't give you is really nice.

And this is one reason why they should have separate analyses;

1) What does it hurt to have an extra analysis?
2) Both options are feasible
3) Both options have separate functions, logic, and even movesets. One should have recover, one shouldn't. One can have rapid spin, one must have rapid spin. One prefers life orb, one needs life orb. And those aren't even all the difference.

If Nasty Plot Mixape gets a separate analysis than specially-based Mixape (which is essentially in the same situation as this; essentially the same moves with extra options on the former and Nasty Plot), then why shouldn't starmie anti-lead get a separate analysis from non-choice sweeper starmie?
 

Legacy Raider

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Ok, are there any more comments on this? I agree with Da Letter El that a leading set deserves its own separate set from the sweeper set, like I've explained in my last couple of posts. I have a separate analysis of both saved, but I am also ok with uploading the combined sweeper set in my OP in place of the current LO set on site. I'd just like to see what the consensus is, whether a split lead and LO set is appropriate, or if it should just remain combined.
 

jrrrrrrr

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If people really want to separate the two LO sets for some reason, at least give the Rapid Spinner Focus Sash as an item to distinguish it in any reasonable manner. I don't really think that its any more anti-lead than any other Rapid Spinning Starmie set...since either way youre getting rid of the rocks lol.

If someone could actually explain why the Life Orb Rapid Spin set is different from the Life Orb set and/or more useful than the spinner, that would be cool. Combining the two sets into one is a neat idea, but I honestly don't believe that Rapid Spin is more valuable than Recover. Slash it in if people have used it with success, but Recover should def be the main option there. I like the top peer edit, LR.
 

TAY

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Starmie with Life Orb will 2HKO Rotom with Hydro Pump and recover against Blissey, making it an extremely useful weapon against stall teams.

That's about the only reason to use Rapid Spin with Life Orb, as far as I know.
 

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