1. Welcome to Smogon! Check out the Smogon Starters Hangout for everything you need to know about starting out in the community. Don't forget to introduce yourself in the Introduction and Hangout Thread, too!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

DPP Staryu (LC Analysis)*

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Namso, Oct 30, 2009.

  1. Namso

    Namso
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2009
    Messages:
    3,304
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/staryu

    Status: Being Concised

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    [Overview]

    <p>With its brilliant Speed stat of 19, a powerful Special Attack stat of 16, and a wonderful offensive movepool, Staryu is a formidable sweeper in LC, especially late-game. Besides that, it's the fastest Pokemon with Rapid Spin in Little Cup, and one of the best Rapid Spinners available. It's a versatile Pokemon and is equipped with all of the tools to finish off your opponent's team. Staryu should always be considered to fill up that open slot on your offensive team; it will almost never disappoint you.<p>

    [SET]
    name: Life Orb Sweeper
    move 1: Hydro Pump / Surf
    move 2: Thunderbolt
    move 3: Ice Beam
    move 4: Hidden Power Ground
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Natural Cure
    nature: Timid
    evs: 200 SpA / 236 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Staryu has a fantastic offensive movepool, with moves that give it excellent type coverage. It reaches one of the fastest Speed benchmarks in the LC metagame, that being a high 19. Lastly, it has a decent Special Attack stat of 16, enough to make full use of its brilliant movepool. These qualities make Staryu one of the best late-game sweepers available in Little Cup.</p>

    <p>Hydro Pump is the STAB move of choice, as it packs 26% more power than Surf. While the 80% accuracy can be an issue, it gives the crucial power needed to OHKO many opponents, as well as doing enough damage to 3HKO the common Munchlax (including Oran Berry). If you dislike Hydro Pump's 80% accuracy, you have a reliable alternative in Surf, which is still capable of dealing heavy damage to most foes. Thunderbolt offers great coverage in tandem with Surf, hitting Water-types like Mantyke for super effective damage. Ice Beam is used to stop Grass-types like Paras who would otherwise halt Staryu's sweep. Finally, Hidden Power Ground hits Croagunk and Chinchou, two common Pokemon capable of stopping Staryu's sweep.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Munchlax threatens nearly every special attacker with its high HP and Special Defense stats, which means Staryu will have a hard time getting past it. There are several ways to take down Munchlax. Fighting-types such as Mankey and Machop can take out Munchlax easily with their STAB attacks. Ghosts with Will-o-Wisp like Duskull and Misdreavus can also lure and/or cripple Munchlax with a burn, making it hard for Munchlax to hit Staryu effectively. Priority users also threaten Staryu, as they can circumvent Staryu's Speed advantage and hit its mediocre defenses hard. Meowth, Croagunk, and Houndour are some of the most common priority users in the LC metagame and each hit hard with their STAB priority moves. Duskull easily switches into Meowth's Fake Out, and can cripple it with Will-o-Wisp. Gligar can switch into Croagunk’s priority moves with impunity, and OHKOs with Earthquake. Finally, Munchlax switches into Houndour's STAB Fire Blast easily with Thick Fat and high Special Defense, and can return fire with a powerful STAB Return.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Lead Spinner
    move 1: Rapid Spin
    move 2: Surf / Hydro Pump
    move 3: Thunderbolt
    move 4: Ice Beam / Hidden Power Ground
    item: Oran Berry / Focus Sash
    ability: Natural Cure
    nature: Timid
    evs: 36 HP / 196 SpA / 236 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>With its fantastic 19 Speed, above-average 16 Special Attack, and wide offensive movepool, Staryu is one of the best Rapid Spin users available in the LC metagame. On top of this, it can also double as an effective late-game sweeper once your opponent's Pokemon are weakened, effectively filling two roles at once.</p>

    <p>Rapid Spin is the crux of this set, removing opposing entry hazards, such as Stealth Rock and Spikes, from the field. However, Staryu's efficiency comes primarily from its offensive moves, as it has enough power to threaten Ghost-types that would switch in to block Rapid Spin, such as Gastly and Misdreavus. Surf is the preferred STAB move, as it provides reliable power in the lead position. However, Hydro Pump allows Staryu to OHKO certain opponents, such as Gastly and Abra, and also provides more power for a potential late-game sweep. Thunderbolt provides secondary coverage, hitting Mantyke and other Water-types. For the last slot, Ice Beam hits Dragon- and Grass-types, particularly Dratini and Paras, very hard, while Hidden Power Ground hits Croagunk and Chinchou.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The two items that are recommended for use are Oran Berry and Focus Sash. Since Staryu packs decent overall bulk, it can make use of Oran Berry, as it gives Staryu more survivability. On the other hand, Focus Sash helps it against leads that can score an OHKO on Staryu, such as Voltorb and Magnemite.</p>

    <p>Staryu will have a huge amount of trouble against Fake Out leads, especially Meowth and Aipom. Both of these Pokemon can potentially beat Staryu with their STAB attacks without taking a hit, leaving Staryu in a tight situation when it’s up against them. Snover, a common LC lead, resists both Surf and Thunderbolt and takes neutral damage from Ice Beam, allowing it to finish off Staryu with its STAB Grass-type moves. To deal with these threats, Aron can be used as it threatens all three. It resists all of their STAB attacks (barring Wood Hammer/Energy Ball from Snover) and generally doesn’t mind any other move they use, aside from the uncommon Brick Break from Aipom, and can set up Stealth Rock or Rock Polish safely. Houndour will almost always come out on top of Snover, Pursuiting it for heavy damage if it decides to flee or scorching it with Fire Blast if it stays in. Ghost-types like Misdreavus can come in on Aipom and Meowth to absorb Fake Out and proceed to dispose of them with Hidden Power Fighting or crippling their Attack with Will-O-Wisp; however, Meowth’s Bite and Aipom's Payback should be looked out for. Aside from helping Staryu deal with what it can’t hurt, Pokemon that appreciate a Stealth Rock-free battlefield should be considered. Taillow and Houndour are two very threatening Pokemon, but have a hindering Stealth Rock weakness, which limits the amount of times they can switch in. With Stealth Rock out of the way, they can safely switch in without worry and attempt to wreak havoc with Guts boosted Facades and powerful Fire Blasts, respectively.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choiced Sweeper
    move 1: Hydro Pump / Surf
    move 2: Thunderbolt
    move 3: Ice Beam
    move 4: Hidden Power Ground
    item: Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
    ability: Natural Cure
    nature: Timid / Modest
    evs: 36 HP / 200 SpA / 236 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Instead of Staryu becoming a late-game sweeper with Life Orb, it can also be a very strong attacker with Choice Specs equipped, or an effective revenge-killer by holding Choice Scarf. With Choice Specs and a Timid nature, Staryu reaches an excellent Special Attack stat of 24, enough for it to deal heavy damage to almost any foe. On the other hand, Staryu reaches a fantastic Speed stat of 27 with Choice Scarf and a Modest nature, outpacing all positive natured base 80 Pokemon that wield Choice Scarf themselves.</p>

    <p>Hydro Pump is an excellent STAB move to use, especially if you opt to use Choice Specs. With Choice Specs, it becomes strong enough to 2HKO the bulkiest version of Munchlax, and 3HKO if Oran Berry is still intact. Also, Staryu becomes a frightening Choice Scarf sweeper with Hydro Pump, OHKOing Pokemon like Gastly and Meowth. Surf is another move Staryu can use if you dislike Hydro Pump's accuracy, hitting reasonably hard against Pokemon that are weak to it or pack low defenses. Thunderbolt and Ice Beam are excellent attacks to use in conjunction with Staryu's STAB move, as the former nails Water-types, such as Mantyke, while the latter penetrates Grass-types, such as Paras and Turtwig. Hidden Power Ground rounds off the set very nicely, eliminating Chinchou and Croagunk, two huge threats to Staryu.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Munchlax is once again a big threat to Staryu, mainly because its defensive stats allow it to take several special hits fired off from Staryu, giving it the chance to finish it off with a powerful STAB Return. Getting rid of Munchlax before sending out Staryu is strongly recommended, so using Fighting-types or Will-O-Wisp users to reduce Munchlax's threat is advised. Croagunk is a great example of a Fighting-type that can OHKO Munchlax easily with Cross Chop, while Duskull can shrug off anything Munchlax throws at it thanks to its high Defense stat, allowing it to cripple Munchlax with Will-O-Wisp. Besides dealing with Munchlax, it’s generally recommended to have Pokemon that can deal with the Pokemon that can be devastating after gaining a free switch in from being immune or resistant to one of Staryu's attacks, at least when using Staryu with a Choice item. For example, Gligar can switch into Thunderbolt or Hidden Power Ground and score a free Swords Dance or Rock Polish boost, or Mantyke can switch into Surf or Hidden Power Ground and pull off an Agility or Rain Dance. To deal with these big threats, Phanpy and Chinchou deserve consideration. Phanpy's great physical bulk and access to Ice Shard makes it a prime candidate to dispose of Gligar, while Chinchou's typing helps it resist nearly every move Mantyke uses, allowing Chinchou to obliterate it with Thunderbolt.</p>

    [Team Options]

    <p>When it comes to sweeping, Munchlax is the bane to Staryu’s existence. With its high HP and Special Defense, nothing that Staryu uses is capable of 2HKOing it, not to mention Oran Berry restoring a good amount of Munchlax’s HP. Chinchou is also an extremely common switch-in, being resistant to Surf and Ice Beam, as well as immune to Thunderbolt. With all that being said, it’s recommended to incorporate Pokemon that can deal with these threats in your team. Strong Fighting-types, such as Mankey, Machop, or Croagunk, are perfect for disposing of Munchlax, OHKOing it with their respective Fighting STAB attacks. As for combating Chinchou, Munchlax, Croagunk, or Wooper are capable of defeating it with relative ease. Munchlax packs excellent special bulk and a powerful Earthquake; Croagunk is immune to Water-type attacks and can nail Chinchou with its priority moves; and Wooper is immune to both of Chinchou’s STAB attacks, and can smack it with a STAB Earthquake.</p>

    <p>It's generally recommended to use Pokemon that can defeat the opponent's Pokemon that can score a free set up from being immune to one of Staryu's attacks, especially from the Choice Sweeper set. Poliwag, Mantyke, Gligar, and Chinchou are prime examples of Pokemon that can become brutal after setting up. Poliwag can pull off a Belly Drum, Mantyke can set up Agility or Rain Dance, Gligar can boost its Attack with Swords Dance or Speed with Rock Polish, and Chinchou can become a scary sweeper after an Agility. The best Pokemon to stop these deadly sweepers without taking up many team slots are Croagunk and Snover. Croagunk can stop Poliwag, Mantyke, and Chinchou from sweeping your team as it is immune to Water-type attacks and can strike them with a combination of Fake Out and Vacuum Wave or Sucker Punch. Snover's typing helps it deal with Mantyke and Chinchou, and can destroy them with Wood Hammer, while Ice Shard stops Gligar from sweeping.</p>

    <p>Pokemon that enjoy a Stealth Rockless battle should be considered as well, since Lead Staryu is almost always guaranteed to clear entry hazards. Doduo will enjoy switching in without losing 25% of its health, letting it fire off more Brave Birds; Ponyta won't have to worry about its HP being reduced by Stealth Rock, letting it use more Flare Blitz attacks than otherwise; Taillow will gain more longevity, letting it abuse Guts boosted Facades more often; and Houndour can switch in more often, allowing it to hurt the opponent with Sucker Punch or Fire Blast. Besides using Pokemon that carry a Stealth Rock weakness, Pokemon with a Focus Sash greatly appreciate having their item kept intact.</p>

    <p>Powerful priority attackers can cause trouble for Staryu, since with its only passable defenses, it will take a big chunk of damage, and will often not be at full HP due to Life Orb. Houndour, Croagunk, Meowth, and Glameow are common priority users in LC, which Gligar is capable of destroying. It has solid defensive stats and a very powerful Earthquake, not to mention Roost, which allows it to switch in more often. Duskull can also effectively switch in to all of these (excluding Houndour) and threaten them with a Attack-halving Will-O-Wisp.</p>

    [Optional Changes]

    <p>The common Substitute + pinch Berry combination works pretty well on Staryu, with a boost and its naturally high Speed and decent Special Attack it can be a very threatening sweeper. By using Petaya Berry, Staryu is capable of reaching a grand Special Attack stat of 24, and with its moves that provide great type coverage, your opponent will have a hard time combating it if they lack a priority user or a Pokemon that is faster than it.</p>

    <p>Staryu is also capable of using Gravity to great effectiveness. Not only does it give Staryu's Blizzard, Hydro Pump, and Thunder 100% accuracy, it also helps its teammates that have a powerful Earthquake, most notably Gligar. This way, Gligar, or any other strong Earthquake user, can effectively use a Choice Band and fire off extremely powerful Earthquake attacks without any worry of a Levitator or Flying-type to force it to switch out, assuming Staryu has already set up Gravity.</p>

    <p>Since Staryu generally forces several switches, Recover can be useful, especially on the Life Orb set. With it, Staryu can heal up 50% of its HP that it has lost from the Life Orb recoil, giving it more longevity to sweep. Pain Split can still be used to some effectiveness on the Life Orb set as well. This gives Staryu the ability to heal itself up to nearly maximum health when it’s running low on HP from Life Orb recoil, and it works very well against the likes of Bronzor and Munchlax because of their large HP stat.</p>

    <p>With Croagunk being a common Staryu switch-in because of its ability to absorb Water-type attacks and recover 25% HP, Psychic is a perfectly viable option to use against it, hitting it for 4x damage. Not only does it destroy Croagunk, but other Fighting-types like Machop and Mankey will never like to take Psychic either. Hidden Power Grass is a decent alternative to Hidden Power Ground, as it obliterates Wooper, Barboach, Omanyte, and Kabuto, all of which can be troublesome. Hidden Power Fire may also be used, taking out Snover and also having a chance to hurt Croagunk badly because of its Dry Skin ability.</p>

    [Counters]

    <p>In almost all situations, Munchlax will be able to threaten Staryu, thanks to its great special bulk and access to a powerful STAB Return. Chinchou, although it lacks the defenses Munchlax boasts, resists and is capable of shrugging off Surf, Thunderbolt, and Ice Beam. It can then set up an Agility and attempt to wreak havoc; however, it should watch out for Hidden Power Ground which deals 75% - 91.67% to standard Chinchou. Snover is another excellent counter to Staryu, as it is resistant to Surf, Thunderbolt, and Hidden Power Ground, allowing it to switch in and smack Staryu with a STABed Energy Ball. Wooper is immune to Thunderbolt, can absorb 25% of its health upon switching into a predicted Surf, and can hurt Staryu with a STAB Earthquake.</p>

    <p>Priority users can cause serious troubles to Staryu, as its mediocre defenses can’t stand up to repeated assaults of priority moves. Fake Out and Vacuum Wave Croagunk and Sucker Punch Houndour are just some of the priority users that can severely damage Staryu. In Croagunk’s case, it’s capable of doing upwards of 70% damage with a combination of a Life Orbed Fake Out and Vacuum Wave, while max Attack positive natured Houndour with Life Orb has a 46% chance to OHKO Staryu with Sucker Punch if Stealth Rock is in play.</p>

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Thanks!
  2. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2008
    Messages:
    5,678
    Recover is illegal iirc ^_^.

    Also, I would probably tack Psychic onto most sets because Croagunk is an awesome switch-in and revenge killer otherwise.
  3. Namso

    Namso
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2009
    Messages:
    3,304
    Well that's a shame, thanks for pointing that out.

    I mentioned Psychic in other options to.
  4. Mailman

    Mailman

    Joined:
    May 20, 2008
    Messages:
    769
    I have a question. Wouldn't it be better for the Life Orb Set to have 19 HP instead of 20 HP, which is what the EVs give you, since it looses 1 HP from Life Orb recoil instead of 2 HP
  5. Namso

    Namso
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2009
    Messages:
    3,304
    You're completely right. Thanks for catching that!
  6. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Messages:
    3,694
    Not sure about the viability of HP Fire, STAB Surf actually does more damage to Bronzor (142 base power Vs 140), Ice Beam or Thunderbolt will do significantly more to Croagunk (Dry Skin does not give a full weakness to fire) leaving only Snover, who takes significant damage from Ice Beam (always 2KOd without Oran or defencive inventment). HP Ground seems like a viable main option, blowing away Croagunk and hitting Chincy just as hard as Grass.
  7. dr00

    dr00

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2008
    Messages:
    2,222
    i agree with this and would add that psychic has STAB and completely blows croagunk out of the picture and hits chinchou almost as hard as grass/ground.

    i've used an HP fire staryu before and never ended up using hidden power.
    the only thing i can really think of that would benefit greatly from using hidden power is grass for barboach, but i don't know if staryu would have much trouble with it anyway.
  8. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Messages:
    3,694
    Psychic actually lacks STAB, Staryu is pure Water. But Psychic could still be a somewhat useful move I guess, guaranteeing KOs on fighting and Poison types.

    Edit: Probably not better than an OO, where it already is.
  9. Namso

    Namso
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2009
    Messages:
    3,304
    Great suggestion eric, I do agree with you. I'll just swap out both Hidden Powers for Hidden Power Ground. Grass is just good for Chinchou, Wooper, and Barboach, though Ground takes out Chinchou already, while Ice Beam can do a significant amount of damage already.

    EDIT: Rewrote some sections due to the Hidden Power change.
  10. lati0s

    lati0s

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2008
    Messages:
    1,492
    Sadly, Hydro Pump is not available for Staryu to use, since it’s virtually impossible for it to learn it at level 5

    remove virtually, it is not virtually impossible to get a level 5 staryu w/ hydro pump, it is completely impossible.
  11. dr00

    dr00

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2008
    Messages:
    2,222
    drr.. i'm not all here today. ignore me.


    i would still mention HP Grass though, even though i would probably prefer ground.
    actually, there is a way through a glitch.
  12. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Messages:
    3,694
    HP Grass hits only Water Absorb Wooper, Barboach, Kabuto and Omanyte harder than Staryu's other moves. The last two are always 1KOed by LO Thunderbolt anyway (bar the improbably max/max on Omanyte, which has a ~50% chance of living). Barboach and Wooper are both always 1KOed by LO Surf without investment, even with it take massive damage. HP Grass is probably OO really, its nice for hitting water types but Thunderbolt being around makes it much less important.
    still needs changing.

    As for Hydro Pump, say it is not legally available at Lv. 5. Makes it totally clear its not allowed while being factually accurate.
  13. dr00

    dr00

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2008
    Messages:
    2,222
    HP Ground is really only for chinchou though. i'm not saying it's required for these other pokemon, just that grass and ground serve mostly the same purpose: chinchou.

    ground hits croagunk too, but really the only difference i see is that some things are immune to ground. so for the choice set, you may not want to be locked into that and give gligar et al a free turn to set up, so i would suggest pointing that out.

    also, i would suggest mentioning for psychic in other options that it doesn't get STAB like its evolution. i made this mistake and i've used staryu on my team, so i'm sure others will as well.

    and i would also mention HP Fire and Signal Beam in OO for their ability to handle snover, pointing out that HP Fire lets chinchou wall you completely and signal beam does less damage than HP Fire, but also point out that ice beam may do adequate damage to snover anyway (if it lacks oran or defensive investment).

    what are the common spreads for snover? i've never used or faced one. i think it would be useful to point out how much damage each of them do (or if they can OHKO/2HKO, etc.) certain spreads.
  14. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Messages:
    3,694
    The thing is Croa is a top tier Pokemon which none of your other moves 1KOs, and is immune to your main STAB. Wooper is very rare, and Surf hits Barb and non Water Absorb Wooper very hard anyway. HP Ground 1KOs min/min Croa all the time, Tbolt only does ~70-85%.

    And HP Fire will always 1KO any Snover with the LO boost. Signal Beam is a bit odd really, what for?
  15. dr00

    dr00

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2008
    Messages:
    2,222
    i wasn't arguing for or against any of that.
    i still think ground is the superior option, but hp grass won't lock the choice set into a move that has immunities. i think for that reason, it should be mentioned alongside hp ground since they both hit chinchou, one of the main problems for staryu.
    the ultimate decision will be hitting croagunk for a ohko or not letting fliers/levitators come in and set up without taking any damage, but both of them essentially accomplish the same thing.

    chinchou doesn't resist it like HP Fire.
    but like i said. just a mention in other options.
  16. Namso

    Namso
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2009
    Messages:
    3,304
    I'm going to stick with Hidden Power Ground on the sets. I understand that the Choice set wouldn't like to give Gligar or Misdreavus a free switch-in, but the Pokemon Hidden Power Ground hits are very important. Croagunk and Chinchou are two Pokemon that really enjoy switching into it, as the former gains free HP recover from Surf and can use its priority attacks to take it down, while the latter gets a free Agility boost.

    I mentioned Hidden Power Grass and Fire in OO, since that's where they belong. Psychic is also put into OO, and I don't really want to add it in as a slash on the sets. STAB Surf generally deals enough damage to severely hurt Fighting-types, like Mankey for example, so there's no need for it. Also, Psychic just gives Houndour and Stunky the ability to Pursuit it with ease.

    EDIT: I'm in a desperate need of proofreads to. Anyone willing to do it?
  17. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2008
    Messages:
    5,678
    Also, Staryu has to switch out if Missy or Gligar come in on HP Grass or Fire, it still doesn't do enough to them to threaten them at all. Also, Houndour and Stunky both lol and Hidden Power Fire, making Pursuit a threat there too. Hidden Power Ground is definitely the way to go.
  18. Namso

    Namso
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2009
    Messages:
    3,304
    Now that the Pomeg glitch came up, I have to start revamping some comments here and there. Hydro Pump, Recover, and Rapid Spin are now legal, apparantley. With those moves, I'll slash Hydro Pump with Surf, put Recover in OO, and write up a Rapid Spin set.

    The set will look something like this:

    [SET]
    name: Lead
    move 1: Hydro Pump / Surf
    move 2: Thunderbolt
    move 3: Ice Beam
    move 4: Rapid Spin
    item: Focus Sash
    ability: Natural Cure
    nature: Timid
    evs: 36 HP / 200 SpA / 236 Spe

    If anyone has any comments regarding these moves, please let me know.
  19. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2008
    Messages:
    5,678
    I'd save Rapid Spin for the lead set, which should absolutely be added. 4 coverage moves is still a good idea.
  20. Namso

    Namso
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2009
    Messages:
    3,304
    Updated analysis with Hydro Pump and Recover.

    Lead set will be posted once I get back from school.
  21. Namso

    Namso
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2009
    Messages:
    3,304
    Excuse my double post, but the Lead Spinner set is now posted, along with an expanded Team Options section.

    I would really like some proofreads now, since Staryu is for sure complete.
  22. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2008
    Messages:
    5,678
    I think Recover should definitely be an option on the lead set and the Life Orb set. With Recover, Staryu can beat one of its most common counters, Croagunk. Croagunk needs to Fake Out + Sucker Punch to KO Staryu, and Recover cancels out Sucker Punch and also heals it to full HP.

    On the lead set, it deals with Sucker Punch from Houndour.
  23. Namso

    Namso
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2009
    Messages:
    3,304
    I'm not really sure if Recover is really worth it on the Life Orb set to be honest. It's meant to late-game sweep, so it needs all the power it can possibly get. By lacking Hidden Power Ground (which Recover will be slashed with), Staryu can be stopped much more easily. Also, it won't necessarily help against Croagunk. With a combination of Fake Out + Vacuum Wave from Life Orb Croagunk (standard EVs), it deals on average 80% damage. I'm sure Staryu will be near that range for the KO, since it is carrying a Life Orb. So, I don't find it very useful on the Life Orb set.

    Using Recover on the lead set is a bit iffy to. I would rather carry a move that can deal with several Pokemon than carrying a move that deals with one Pokemon, which isn't extremely common in the lead position anyway.

    I'm not sure about Recover, I'll think about it some more.
  24. Xia

    Xia aka Lone Gansel
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2007
    Messages:
    2,463
    At your request.
    Life Orb Sweeper (open)

    <p>Munchlax tends to threaten nearly every special attacker with its high HP and Special Defense stats, which means Staryu will have a tough time passing through it. There are a couple of ways to take down Munchlax. Packing a Fighting-type such as Machop or Mankey is strongly suggested, since Munchlax will never like to take a powerful STAB Fighting attack from them. Another way to stop Munchlax is by crippling it with burn status to make it a less effective attacker. Duskull is a primary candidate at doing so, due to the fact that it reaches a very high Defense stat, allowing it to rub shrug off anything Munchlax attempts to throw at it and return with a power-reducing Will-O-Wisp. Priority users in general can become a huge pain to Staryu, as many of the most common priority moves hit it for neutral damage, and with its weak defenses, it won’t like being hit by them. Meowth, Croagunk, and Houndour are some of the most common examples of priority users in the LC metagame, hitting surprisingly hard with their STAB priority moves. To deal with these threats, Duskull can safely switch into Meowth on a predicted Fake Out, and proceed to cripple it with Will-O-Wisp to drain its effectiveness; Gligar can switch into Croagunk’s priority moves such as Fake Out and Vacuum Wave with impunity, allowing it to OHKO it with Earthquake; and Munchlax can become an effective switch-in to Houndour, obliterating it with a powerful Earthquake.


    Lead Spinner (open)

    <p>Hydro Pump is definitely the primary STAB move to use, as it can severely damage the majority of the common leads in Little Cup. If the accuracy Hydro Pump has worries you, Surf is a decent alternative STAB attack to use. Even though its power is significantly weaker than Hydro Pump, it can still cause a great amount of damage. Thunderbolt and Ice Beam are mainly used for coverage purposes; the former being is able to knock out Water-types that resist Staryu’s Water-type STABs, while the latter eliminates Grass-types that switch into Thunderbolt or Staryu’s Water-type moves. Rapid Spin is the crux of this set. Staryu is the fastest user of Rapid Spin, and with its powerful STAB attacks, it can potentially defeat the opposing lead with a combination of Hydro Pump and Rapid Spin, meaning the opposing Pokemon and any entry hazards set up will be gone. Another great thing about Staryu is that can deal a huge amount of damage to Ghost-types that try to absorb Rapid Spin, most notably Gastly and Misdreavus. With that being said, Staryu is almost always guaranteed to Spin away any entry hazards the opponent has set up, since Ghost-types have to look out for Staryu's mighty STAB attacks.</p>

    <p>Staryu will have a huge amount of trouble against Fake Out leads, especially Meowth and Aipom. Both of these Pokemon can potentially beat Staryu with their STAB attacks, leaving Staryu in a tight situation when it’s up against them. Snover, a common lead in LC, will laugh at anything Staryu attempts to throw at it, because it resists every move Staryu has, barring the very weak Rapid Spin. To deal with these aforementioned threats, Aron can be used to threaten all three. It resists all of their STAB attacks and generally doesn’t mind any other move they use, aside from the uncommon Brick Break from Aipom, and can set up Stealth Rock or Rock Polish safely. Houndour will almost always come out on top of Snover, Pursuiting it for big damage if it decides to flee, or scorching it with Fire Blast if it stays in. Ghost-types like Misdreavus can come in on Aipom and Meowth to absorb Fake Out and proceed to dispose of them with Hidden Power Fighting or crippling their Attack with Will-O-Wisp; however, Meowth’s Bite should be looked out for. Aside from helping Staryu deal with what it can’t hurt, Pokemon that apprecciate a Stealth Rock-free battlefield should be considered. Taillow and Houndour are two Pokemon that are very threatening, but have a hindering Stealth Rock weakness, which limits the amount of turns they can switch in. With Stealth Rock being out of the way, they can safely switch in without worry and attempt to wreak havoc with Guts boosted Facades and powerful Fire Blasts, respectively.</p>


    Choiced Sweeper (open)

    <p>Hydro Pump is an excellent STAB move to use, especially if you opt to use Choice Specs, since the power of Hydro Pump is very helpful. With Choice Specs, it becomes strong enough to 2HKO the bulkiest version of Munchlax, a 3HKO if Oran Berry is still intact. Also, Staryu becomes a frightening Choice Scarf sweeper with Hydro Pump, destroying Pokemon like Elekid, Voltorb, and Diglett. Surf is another move Staryu could use if you dislike Hydro Pump's accuracy, hitting reasonably hard against Pokemon that are weak to it or pack low defenses. Thunderbolt and Ice Beam are excellent attacks to use in conjunction with Surf, as the former nails Water-types such as Chinchou that attempt to absorb Surf [Chinchou run Volt Absorb, making this example null], while the latter penetrates Grass-types like Turtwig that try to switch into a predicted Surf. When it comes to sweeping, Staryu generally has problems combatting against Chinchou and Croagunk. Chinchou is resistant to Surf, Ice Beam, and immune to Thunderbolt, allowing it to nail Staryu with Thunderbolt, while Croagunk gains free HP recovery from Surf and takes neutral damage from Staryu’s other attacks, giving it an opportunity to finish off Staryu with a combination of Fake Out and Vacuum Wave. This problem can be easily solved by using Hidden Power Ground, as each of them will be taking super effective damage.</p>​

    <p>Munchlax once again becomes a big threat to Staryu, mainly because its defensive stats allow it to take several special hits fired off from Staryu, giving it the chance to finish it off with a powerful STAB Return. Getting rid of Munchlax before sending out Staryu is strongly recommended, so by using Fighting-types or Will-O-Wisp users, Munchlax will no longer threaten Staryu. Croagunk is a great example of a Fighting-type that can OHKO Munchlax easily with Cross Chop, while Duskull can rub shrug [I've never heard "rub off" used in this context, but if you have, feel free to keep it] off anything Munchlax throws at it thanks to its high Defense stat, allowing it to cripple Munchlax with Will-O-Wisp. Besides dealing with Munchlax, it’s generally recommended to have Pokemon that can deal with the Pokemon that can be devastating after gaining a free switch in from being immune or resistant to one of Staryu's attacks. For example, Gligar can switch right into Thunderbolt or Hidden Power Ground and score a free Swords Dance or Rock Polish boost, or Mantyke can switch into Surf or Hidden Power Ground and pull off an Agility or Rain Dance. To deal with these big threats, Phanpy and Chinchou deserve consideration. Phanpy's great physical bulk and access to Ice Shard makes it a prime candidate to dispose of Gligar, while Chinchou's typing helps it be resistant to nearly every move Mantyke uses, allowing Chinchou to obliterate it with Thunderbolt.</p>


    Team Options (open)

    <p>When it comes to sweeping, Munchlax is basically a bane to Staryu’s existence. With its high HP and Special Defense, nothing that Staryu uses is capable of 2HKOing it, not to mention Oran Berry restoring a good amount of Munchlax’s HP. Chinchou is also an extremely common switch-in, being able to resistant to Surf and Ice Beam, while immune to Thunderbolt. With all that being said, it’s recommended to incorporate Pokemon that can deal with these threats in your team. Strong Fighting-types such as Mankey, Machop, or Croagunk are perfect for disposing of Munchlax, OHKOing it with their respective Fighting STAB. As for combatting against Chinchou, Munchlax, Croagunk, or Wooper are capable of defeating it with relative ease. Munchlax packs excellent bulk and a powerful Earthquake, Croagunk is immune to Water-type attacks and can nail Chinchou with its priority moves, and Wooper is immune to both of Chinchou’s STAB attacks, smacking it with a STABed Earthquake.</p>


    Other Options (open)

    <p>Staryu is also capable of using Gravity to great effectiveness. Not only does it allow Staryu to use moves such as Blizzard and Thunder for 100% accuracy, it also helps its teammates that have pack a powerful Earthquake, most notably Gligar. This way, Gligar, or any other strong Earthquake user, can effectively use a Choice Band and fire off extremely powerful Earthquake attacks without any worry of a Levitator or Flying-type to force it to switch out, assuming Staryu has already set up Gravity.</p>

    <p>With Croagunk being a common Staryu switch-in because of its ability to absorb Water-type attacks in exchange for a 25% HP recovery [this could probably be removed, to better flow, though it's up to you], Psychic is a perfectly viable option to use against it, hitting it for 4x damage. Not only does it destroy Croagunk, but other Fighting-types like Machop and Mankey will never like to take Psychic either, as they are hit for super effective damage. Hidden Power Grass is a decent alternative to hidden Power Ground, as it obliterates Wooper, Barboach, Omantye, and Kabuto, all of which can be troublesome. Hidden Power Fire may also be used, taking out Snover and also having a chance to hurt Croagunk badly because of its Dry Skin ability.</p>


    Counters (open)

    <p>In almost all situations, Munchlax will always be able to threaten Staryu, thanks to its great overall bulk and access to a powerful STAB Return. Chinchou, although not having it lacks the defenses Munchlax boasts, is capable of shrugging off Surf, Thunderbolt, and Ice Beam, three moves that is generally always seen on Staryu. It can then set up an Agility and attempt to wreak havoc; however, it should watch out for Hidden Power Ground. Snover is another excellent counter to Staryu, as it is resistant to Surf, Thunderbolt, and Hidden Power Ground, allowing it to smack Staryu with a STABed Energy Ball. Wooper works the same way, except that it takes neutral damage from Ice Beam, but it can absorb 25% of its health upon switching into a predicted Surf and can nail Staryu with a STAB Earthquake.</p>

    <p>Priority users can cause serious troubles to Staryu, as its mediocre defenses can’t keep up with the repeated assaults of priority moves. Fake Out and Vacuum Wave Croagunk and Sucker Punch Houndour are just some of the priority users that can severely damage Staryu. In Croagunk’s case, it’s capable of doing upwards of 70% damage with a combination of a Life Orbed Fake Out and Vacuum Wave, while max Attack positive natured Houndour with Life Orb has a 46% chance to OHKO Staryu with Sucker Punch and if Stealth Rock is in play.</p>
  25. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Messages:
    3,694
    With fuzzy's permission, fixed a few spelling errors directly. Also reduced the number of ----------s to stop screen stretching.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)