I'd not go too far, but yeah.
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DPP Tentacruel (Update)+
- Thread starter mtr
- Start date
"Other analyses suck too" isn't really good rationale.
If it shouldn't be used, then it's not a feasible option. Analyses should list useful information, and under no circumstance is Specs useful. None.
Not even "surprise value".
Sorry, just a nitpick I saw that needed changed. :3
If you're having problems determining when/what to capitalize, check out Great Sage's Standards for Grammar thread in C&C; it has all the information on that kind of stuff.
I just feel that Tentacruel should be doing more annoyance than actual attacking, or at least counter attacking if it must carry and second move. Knock Off is a great choice because if you already have TS down and don't need to RS, Knock Off is the perfect solution to further "annoy" and possibly disfigure a pokemon switching in.
I think Knock Off should be a primary option because of its general utility against bulky/defensively minded teams that enjoy leftovers. Even many offensive teams use Life Orbs and Choice Bands to guarantee crucial 2HKOs, and taking them off means that threats can be stalled and phazed easier. For example:
607 Atk vs 368 Def & 420 HP (120 Base Power): 213 - 252 (50.71% - 60.00%)
A Choice Band Salamence/Dragonite/Tyranitar, all common switch-ins to Tentacruel (well, Dragonite isn't common :)), using Outrage/Aqua Tail on a 252/252 Hippowdon. It 2HKOs, unless the band is knocked off, resulting in
405 Atk vs 368 Def & 420 HP (120 Base Power): 142 - 168 (33.81% - 40.00%)
which is easy enough to recover on and phaze away. It could be argued that you could not use Knock Off and instead switch to Skarmory after Hippo takes an Outrage, but then Hippowdon has sustained a good deal of damage, which is unfortunate, since he is often one of the most valuable parts of a stall team, and should be kept health just in case a Lucario shows up after Gengar Shadow Balled a Rotom predicting a Focus Blast.
Gyarados needs a Life Orb for the 2HKO on Celebi. If it is removed, it can easily be stalled out.
In short, it depends on your team: if you have a lot of instant recovery, like Hippo, Skarm, and Celebi, Knock Off is probably a solid option. If instead you are using stuff like Swampert and Forry and seeking to directly counter offensive threats, you could probably use Sludge Bomb to ensure your defensive counter can finish off the Gyarados or whatever.
607 Atk vs 368 Def & 420 HP (120 Base Power): 213 - 252 (50.71% - 60.00%)
A Choice Band Salamence/Dragonite/Tyranitar, all common switch-ins to Tentacruel (well, Dragonite isn't common :)), using Outrage/Aqua Tail on a 252/252 Hippowdon. It 2HKOs, unless the band is knocked off, resulting in
405 Atk vs 368 Def & 420 HP (120 Base Power): 142 - 168 (33.81% - 40.00%)
which is easy enough to recover on and phaze away. It could be argued that you could not use Knock Off and instead switch to Skarmory after Hippo takes an Outrage, but then Hippowdon has sustained a good deal of damage, which is unfortunate, since he is often one of the most valuable parts of a stall team, and should be kept health just in case a Lucario shows up after Gengar Shadow Balled a Rotom predicting a Focus Blast.
Gyarados needs a Life Orb for the 2HKO on Celebi. If it is removed, it can easily be stalled out.
In short, it depends on your team: if you have a lot of instant recovery, like Hippo, Skarm, and Celebi, Knock Off is probably a solid option. If instead you are using stuff like Swampert and Forry and seeking to directly counter offensive threats, you could probably use Sludge Bomb to ensure your defensive counter can finish off the Gyarados or whatever.
Knock Off is a theorymon move. It's like Snatch. In practice it is very situational, at best.
The Hippowdon user should see the Outrage coming from a mile away and switch to Skarm to take it. Considering a mispredict would be using CB Fire Blast or stuff Skarmory is immune to, the worst case scenario is that you lose your Skarm and SR and Sand has weakened Mence to the point where he can't safely come in again.
Seriously. Put Knock Off on your team. When I tried it, I was always like... "Why would I want to remove that?" The only stuff worth removing was Leftovers, which are only used on defensive teams which you need Rapid Spin to beat anyway.
More like taking them off makes them harder to beat. A Life Orb is used against a Pokémon on a stall team as it wears down the sweeper even faster, and a Choice Band is used to buy free turns like nothing else.
Except Hippowdon shouldn't be your Outrage taking Pokémon, ever, on any respectable stall team. That's what Skarmory and Forretress are for. Not having a Steel type and having to deal with CB Salamence is a very situational... situation, and you can deal with it by sacrificing Tentacruel.
That is pretty ridiculously situational (not to mention even if Gengar is using a Focus Blast, Blissey is still a perfectly good switch).
The Hippowdon user should see the Outrage coming from a mile away and switch to Skarm to take it. Considering a mispredict would be using CB Fire Blast or stuff Skarmory is immune to, the worst case scenario is that you lose your Skarm and SR and Sand has weakened Mence to the point where he can't safely come in again.
Except you shouldn't be relying on "baiting it with Tentacruel to Knock Off the item" to counter it.
Seriously. Put Knock Off on your team. When I tried it, I was always like... "Why would I want to remove that?" The only stuff worth removing was Leftovers, which are only used on defensive teams which you need Rapid Spin to beat anyway.
I've used Knock Off before. It wasn't stunning, and usually I just got off leftovers or something like that. Nevertheless, its general utility is probably around that of Sludge Bomb, and higher than that of HP Electric, which is pretty much for Empoleon and maybe Gyarados.
My apologies for the somewhat situational thing I brought up. The point I was trying to make was that Skarmory should rarely be the initial Salamence switch-in, and that it is far easier to stall out and phaze Salamence when it doesn't have the attacking power given to it by a Life Orb. This is the same with Gyarados. On another note, CB-Tar and DD-Tar are sort of common, though, and it helps to take off their tool of choice.
In short: it may be nice to use if you have nothing else, but as you mentioned, nothing on your team should rely on it.
My apologies for the somewhat situational thing I brought up. The point I was trying to make was that Skarmory should rarely be the initial Salamence switch-in, and that it is far easier to stall out and phaze Salamence when it doesn't have the attacking power given to it by a Life Orb. This is the same with Gyarados. On another note, CB-Tar and DD-Tar are sort of common, though, and it helps to take off their tool of choice.
In short: it may be nice to use if you have nothing else, but as you mentioned, nothing on your team should rely on it.
sorry i took so long to reply don't have internet acess anyway i did mean 16 speed ev to put you ahead of adamant breloom and adamant tyranitar, jolly tyranitar are usually dragon dancers so speed wont help, as for your point skamory does horrible against the standard sub punch set it can only whirlwind since roost makes it weak to fight type focus punch two k.o. so celebi is tentacruel only competion for breloom counter for a stall team (but tentacruel can be used on balance teams as well mainly for rapid spin) heatran earth power (timid) is unlikely to 2k.o with stealth rock if you move 16 ev form spdef to speed it's unlikely get 2k.o (without decent prior damage) test it out yourself
I don't understand why you wouldn't go with 40 or 76 Speed EVs on any defensive set. 40 allows Tentacruel to outspeed Jolly TTar and Celebi/Zapdos who run 36 Speed EVs (These are usually the bulky defensive versions). Going as far as 76 actually outspeeds Modest Heatran, which is helpful against perhaps a SubTran who would run Modest in hopes of outspeeding and 2hkoing Tentacruel.
I just showed that 76 Speed EVs would outspeed Modest Heatran...
Edit: Alright, but then you don't have anything to worry about, If it is stuck on Choice Scarf, you can just predict its attack and switch to an appropiate counter whether it be Blissey, Tentacruel, Rotom-H, Salamence, Gyarados, etc. What Tentacruel has to worry about usually is a SubTran who outspeeds it, because SubTran requires no prediction if used properly. To break the sub, Tentacruel would end up taking two Earth Powers and from Modest, IIRC it would 2HKO (I will have to check that). However, if I am 76 Speed, I can outspeed Modest SubTran and Surf twice, or Surf and Rapid Spin, or whatever.
Edit: Alright, but then you don't have anything to worry about, If it is stuck on Choice Scarf, you can just predict its attack and switch to an appropiate counter whether it be Blissey, Tentacruel, Rotom-H, Salamence, Gyarados, etc. What Tentacruel has to worry about usually is a SubTran who outspeeds it, because SubTran requires no prediction if used properly. To break the sub, Tentacruel would end up taking two Earth Powers and from Modest, IIRC it would 2HKO (I will have to check that). However, if I am 76 Speed, I can outspeed Modest SubTran and Surf twice, or Surf and Rapid Spin, or whatever.
This would probably warrant mention in the EVs section, which as of now only has a spread with 36 EVs on a defensive set listed. I'm not sure about whether it should replace the current spread, though.
All right, time to draft a to-do list.
-Move Knock Off to other options
-Put this into EVs
-Proofread this thing.
Running 40 EVs is really a waste as the only Jolly Tyranitar that exist are DD Tyranitar. These are phsed by Surf so little that thye can just dd up in your face and go first anyway. So it's either DD - Surf - get killed by DDTar or Surf - DD - get killed by DDTar. It doesn't ever matter unless Tyranitar is at spectacularly low health and tries to go for the straight kill rather than the DD, not worth 40 EVs in my opinion when those are critical to beating infernape and heatran.
@KD24: I mentioned that 255 Speed beats Modest Heatran in EVs.
@Everyone: I think that the debating and correcting process is dying down, and I will begin looking through the analysis and clarifying anything that is unclear, deleting unnecessary words and stuff. If you see any egregious (or otherwise, lol) mistakes, or have something that needs to be added, let me know. Thank you for weighing in on this, and I appreciate everyone's input.
@Everyone: I think that the debating and correcting process is dying down, and I will begin looking through the analysis and clarifying anything that is unclear, deleting unnecessary words and stuff. If you see any egregious (or otherwise, lol) mistakes, or have something that needs to be added, let me know. Thank you for weighing in on this, and I appreciate everyone's input.
The updates in this were extremely well written. You have a great writing style! Just a few things I want to point out for the future:
- Pokémon is capitalized.
- When listing numerous types (in the case of Water-, Electric-, and Ice-type attacks), you need to add the hyphen after each type. If you do not use the word type (in the case of Water and Electric attacks), it is not needed.
Uploading. ;)
- Pokémon is capitalized.
- When listing numerous types (in the case of Water-, Electric-, and Ice-type attacks), you need to add the hyphen after each type. If you do not use the word type (in the case of Water and Electric attacks), it is not needed.
Uploading. ;)