Gen 4 DPP Ubers viability ranking thread (Now discussing Farceus viability)

shrang

Kylowole is shredded
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#1
More nostalgia fetish time!!!! Anyway, this thread is for DPP Ubers w/o the level 100 limited EV Arceus, I'll leave a post for Theorymon to put in his Farceus viability rankings or he might just set up a separate thread.

S Rank: Reserved for the top threats in the Ubers metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well with little to no extra support. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this tier have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

Darkrai
Dialga
Giratina-O
Kyogre
Palkia

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are outstanding in the Ubers metagame and can sweep, wall, or support the majority of the tier. These Pokemon require less support than other Pokemon to be used effectively, but still perform less consistently than the average S rank Pokemon. A rank Pokemon have few flaws that can be overlooked when compared to their positive traits.

Top:
Deoxys-S
Groudon
Jirachi
Latias
Mewtwo
Rayquaza

Mid:
Blissey
Forretress
Garchomp
Heatran
Latios
Scizor
Wobbuffet

Low:
Deoxys-A
Shaymin-S
Tyranitar

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who are slightly above average in the Ubers metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than of those above it that affects how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential

(Not enough Pokemon for three divisions, IMO)

Top:
Ho-oh
Lugia
Skarmory
Manaphy

Mid:
Bronzong
Kingdra
Lucario
Mew

Low:
Deoxys
Giratina
Ludicolo
Metagross


C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the Ubers metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being top tier threats. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be as effective as higher ranked Pokemon in Ubers. C rank Pokemon tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

Top:
Cloyster
Froslass
Heracross
Kabutops
Qwilfish
Salamence
Shiftry
Tentacruel

Mid:
Abomasnow
Celebi
Cresselia
Deoxys-D
Gengar
Jumpluff
Mamoswine
Omastar

Low:
Azelf
Gyarados
Quagsire
Uxie

D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are below average in the Ubers metagame. These Pokemon often require very significant amounts of support with a relatively low reward compared to higher ranked Pokemon.

Dugtrio
Ninjask
Parasect
Primeape
Shedinja
Starmie
Snorlax
Tangrowth
Toxicroak
Victreebel
Weavile
Wynaut
 
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shrang

Kylowole is shredded
is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
#2
Farceus Viability
S Rank: Reserved for the top threats in the Ubers metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well with little to no extra support. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this tier have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

Kyogre
Palkia
Arceus-Steel
Darkrai

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are outstanding in the Ubers metagame and can sweep, wall, or support the majority of the tier. These Pokemon require less support than other Pokemon to be used effectively, but still perform less consistently than the average S rank Pokemon. A rank Pokemon have few flaws that can be overlooked when compared to their positive traits.

Top:
Dialga
Giratina-O
Garchomp

Mid:
Arceus-Fighting
Tyranitar

Low:

Arceus-Grass
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who are slightly above average in the Ubers metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than of those above it that affects how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential

Top:

Mid:

Low:

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the Ubers metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being top tier threats. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be as effective as higher ranked Pokemon in Ubers. C rank Pokemon tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

Top:

Mid:
Low:


D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are below average in the Ubers metagame. These Pokemon often require very significant amounts of support with a relatively low reward compared to higher ranked Pokemon.
 
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Fireburn

BARN ALL
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Ubers Co-Leader
#3
Kingdra should be A- at minimum, it's basically uncounterable in the rain save really bulky Dialga and changing the weather.

Blissey can prolly be bumped up too, Gen 4 has less viable things capable of killing it without CM + status removal or boom.

Gyarados in D-rank pls.

I think Lugia in A- is fine too since it's like the one thing that can check most kinds of Rayquaza without getting immediately owned. CM WW Lugia is also pretty good.

Rest seems fine.
 
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#4
I'd honestly promote Forretress to mid-A. Toxic Spikes are sickeningly good in DPP Ubers since there are no quality Poison-types to absorb them (Tentacruel is on the cusp of viability but isn't really good). Forretress will find some opportunities to set them up, too, especially on Ghosts that attempt to spinblock on it barring HP Fire Giratina-O. Examples of Pokemon it can set Toxic Spikes up include Scizor, Scarf-locked Dragon type moves, Lugia, Jirachi, Blissey, Latias, Groudon lacking Fire-type moves, and the aforementioned Giratinas...it is going to find opportunities to switch in safely and set them up unless you are careless. Even past Toxic Spikes, Forretress has a lot to offer. The ability to use Rapid Spin (or at least threaten to do so to get your own hazards), spread status with Toxic, and potentially set up Spikes as well grant it enormous utility for both offensive and defensive teams alike.

I agree with Fireburn on Kingdra as well, I never loved it in gen 5 but it's awful to deal with in Gen 4 without Ferrothorn, Extremekiller's revenge-killing ability and bulky Arceus formes around . Even specially defensive Dialga and Blissey cannot switch in safely, since the former is hit hard with Draco Meteor and the latter loses to Dragon Dance or mixed sets.Without Team Preview, your opponent might be careless with their Rayquaza or whatever Kingdra answer they might have on their team, assuming they have an answer at all. It's definitely worthy of a bump.
 

BKC

is a Team Rater Alumnusis the Smogon Tour Season 16 Championis a defending World Cup of Pokemon championis the Smogon Tour Season 22 Champion
Past Gens Champion
#5
latios in B+ seems kinda low, i would put him in mid or at least low A.

regular deoxys in C- is baffling...

arceus sucks no one likes him
 

shrang

Kylowole is shredded
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#6
I put Latios in B+ because it just seemed like "just another Dragon" in DPP Ubers to me, but A- is probably not a bad place.
 
#7
Skymin seems a bit too high for what it is imo, i don't think he can wall, support or sweep a good portion of the metagame, LO version can be a bit threatening, other version are walled by Scizor / Forretress / Heatran / Dialga depending of the moveset and it's a bit too frail to switch into things like Kyogre, offensive Groudon or any non-defensive pokemon i can think of.

B or B+ imo.
 
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#8
I think you should add in the description of D-Rank what you already have + something along the lines of "some of these pokemon serve specific niches" because thats what a lot of things on there like Shedinja, Primeape, Dugtrio, and Quagsire are doing in Ubers.
 
#9
Salamence deserves a better place than C+ rank (maybe B- ?). With Rayquaza, they form a great double-dragon core in which they're damage the checks for each other.

Why the fuck is there a Gyarados on C- rank ? I've never seen someone using it or doing an interesting thing with it. Gyarados has nothing to do on this list, but this is my opinion.
 
#10
tentacruel only works as a lead and it is a really cool lead for those who haven't tried it

Never be an eo and use swift swim ludicolo. You will be mocked by ciele. It is much better than Wherever it is at as it really doesn't need kyogre to be useful. Kyogre is ubiquitous anyways so its not even a gamble most of the time. It only suffers vs jirachis / skarms / and forreys. Toxic spike lead tentacruel + ludicolo is really cool and has been used to good success in Crystal Geodude. I think the team is 6-1 overall?
 
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PISTOLERO

I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.
#11
I'm completely biased because I love it so much, but I think that Manaphy should be A- instead of B. It can run Wacan Berry Tail Glow sets with 3 attacks to boost, take a Scarfed Thunder then sweep an opponent's team, Tail Glow+Rest, or even Calm Mind+Rest to absolutely wipe the floor with any stall teams (I hate you Blissey). 100 base stats across the board is good too, and Hydration is just - so - good with Rest, as long as you watch out for Rayquaza/Groudon switching in on it. Also it's adorable :)

Edit: I forgot, you can even be a bitch with Toxic/Rest, although it's a shame that Scald doesn't exist in DPP
 
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#12
People most likely don't know me very well, but ciele / iconic will back me!

Gira o should be just below darkrai (whom i would put S), as it puts enormous pressure on every play style and fits on every team easily.
Palkia should be lower as it isn't very impressive. Kyogre is the only reason it is S, but it does far less than most think.
Deoxys s shouldn't be so high since every lead is based off of beating deoxys s. I understand why it is S though.
Ho oh is strong but lack of regeneration and any good spinner means it struggles vs Deoxys Offense and most Stall.

This won't be changed so ill go even quicker (or try to)
Bronzong is horrible except at setting SR then Screens maybe then exploding. Deoxys + Mewtwo or latios is much better at this.
Skarmory / jirachi / heatran are the three best non ubers pokemon available as they cover so much of the metagame. Id have each one higher
Lucario is way better than C. It will beat most HO really easily as base 90 is where all the bulky ubers live.
The pokemon in D are garbage except quagsire who is fairly good. Locopoke has won some Ubers tours with it and i enjoy it. With encore its not as horrible vs sub kyogre.
Tyranitar is pretty good and it beats a lot of leads like Deoxys / darkrai / non sash ray / non BB dialga / Mewtwo / etc. For this i would put it higher. It can also come in later with a CB and beat latias / latios pretty easily. GK won't kill

F ciele. He betrayed me.
 
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#13
May I ask why Arceus isn't allowed?

Is it because it's impossible to get legitimately (I wasnt around when Platinum was out), or does simply everyone hate it?
 

PISTOLERO

I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.
#14
May I ask why Arceus isn't allowed?

Is it because it's impossible to get legitimately (I wasnt around when Platinum was out), or does simply everyone hate it?
Arceus was only obtainable via event, and only at some point quite a long time after Diamond and Pearl came out. therefore there was an arceus-free, or pre-arceus, metagame. also, farceus refers to the fact that, due to arceus being obtained at lvl 100 via event, you couldn't ev train it properly, with it only being able to have 100 evs in each stat. hope this helps :)
 

shrang

Kylowole is shredded
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#17
People most likely don't know me very well, but ciele / iconic will back me!

Gira o should be just below darkrai (whom i would put S), as it puts enormous pressure on every play style and fits on every team easily.
Palkia should be lower as it isn't very impressive. Kyogre is the only reason it is S, but it does far less than most think.
Deoxys s shouldn't be so high since every lead is based off of beating deoxys s. I understand why it is S though.
Ho oh is strong but lack of regeneration and any good spinner means it struggles vs Deoxys Offense and most Stall.

This won't be changed so ill go even quicker (or try to)
Bronzong is horrible except at setting SR then Screens maybe then exploding. Deoxys + Mewtwo or latios is much better at this.
Skarmory / jirachi / heatran are the three best non ubers pokemon available as they cover so much of the metagame. Id have each one higher
Lucario is way better than C. It will beat most HO really easily as base 90 is where all the bulky ubers live.
The pokemon in D are garbage except quagsire who is fairly good. Locopoke has won some Ubers tours with it and i enjoy it. With encore its not as horrible vs sub kyogre.
Tyranitar is pretty good and it beats a lot of leads like Deoxys / darkrai / non sash ray / non BB dialga / Mewtwo / etc. For this i would put it higher. It can also come in later with a CB and beat latias / latios pretty easily. GK won't kill

F ciele. He betrayed me.
Okay, I agree and disagree with some of these, so I'll just outline the changes:
- Giratina-O goes up to A+
- Skarm goes up to B+
- Heatran goes up to B+
- Lucario goes up to B-
- Bronzong goes down to B-
- Tyranitar goes up to A-
- Quagsire goes up to C-
- Dugtrio goes up to C-

Darkrai was good, but I thought it had quite a few problems (easy to revenge kill, sleep mechanics wasn't AS retarded in gen 4 and Sleep Talkers were common) that prevents it being S. Palkia was actually S tier material, IMO. The Scarf set could fit onto pretty much every team, and the mixed sets had no counters since Ferrothorn didn't exist in gen 4. Not only can it do those but it can also run stuff like Specs and CB. I talked to Theorymon, and he wasn't sure about dropping Bronzong, and neither am I, so I'm going to keep it where it is at the moment. I might drop it to B- so Lucario isn't lonely. I also moved Dugtrio up to C- since apparently Theorymon thought it was good with Wobbuffet, especially without Team Preview.
 

BKC

is a Team Rater Alumnusis the Smogon Tour Season 16 Championis a defending World Cup of Pokemon championis the Smogon Tour Season 22 Champion
Past Gens Champion
#18
luc seems just a tad low in b- so how about just b

gotta move deo-n up, its a solid lead and c is just absurd. b as well imo
 

shrang

Kylowole is shredded
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#19
Sure that's fine. I'm still a bit weary about Deo-N in B, since it was mostly outclassed by Deo-A except in a (relatively) small niche. Maybe have it in B-?
 

Monte Cristo

Banned deucer.
#20
kinda old but reviving for some quick thoughts.

Latias should be S. Latias is the single best utility check in the game in current non farce ubers (I haven't played farceus ubers very much tbh as I didn't like PO ladder back then). Latias' CM set is a very threatening and deadly bulky win condition and ogre block. Latias counters ogre, manaphy, skymin and m2 at the very least. Not only this but after a cm it can beat mons you wouldn't think it could like post-sleep darkrai, dialga and palkia. I've also ran both standard/analysis/defensive dual screens and a more offensive one with last slot draco turning it into a a threatening lead, utility check and screen setter. In all roles it's a great pokemon and a little versatile, while it's not very versatile like things like ogre or dialga it's raw usefulness, somewhat amazing power(it hits harder than lust palk iirc), stellar bulk and easiness to fit on a team make it a threat to all.
 
#21
sorry for bumping kinda dead thread but after playing quite a number of games i'd like to point out two things;

#1 - I completely agree with Latias going up there to S, Monte Cristo said enough but I wanted to add that (from my experience)it fits really well on rain teams forming deadly duo with Kingdra weakening a ton of its checks for Kingdra to clean lategame + it has befenit of working outside of weather(other dragons can't do it that well because of lower speed/power/relying on choice item)

#2 - Wobbufet is too low. Tickle+Pursuit is one deadly combination, Encore+Safeguard(encoring status from likes of don/jirachi/bliss(?) and safeguarding next turn is pretty cool) allowing player to setup damn everything, and last but not least Custap Dbond which is godlike, often taking two Pokemon in my games. Shadowtag + support it has make Wob an absurdly abusable mon without teampreview.
These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well with little to no extra support. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted.
That's the description of S rank mon and I think that it fits Wobbuffet completely.
 
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#22
reviving based off interest in ADV ubers and there has been some shifting in the modern teams.

I'd still put darkrai in S and drop groudon and deoxys s.
Giratina o because it is the best pokemon that fits on every team
Bronzong moves up because it is a sick pokemon
Ho oh lugia shaymin s down, latios up
giratina normal down, blissey way up. The metagame takes advantage of people not using balance blissey teams.
ludicolo up, heatran up, jirachi even up.
Drop deoxys a, tentacruel up.
Add gliscor too, that thing is actually sick. SpD tanks a lot from dragons, breaks stall, and sometimes can BP subs to LO mewtwo, aqua tail palkia, or SD lucario.
Drop metagross, its best set now is lead Occa, scarf is too common hehe
Dugtrio is garbage, like typhlosion tier garbage but at least typhlosion can do stuff. getting a choice thunder is so tricky
And finally, flygon gets a special shoutout for being semi viable.

Ill probably make my own viability list because I know the OU / NU / UU mons and the dead metagame more than anyone at the moment probably.

Dialga is #1 pokemon at the moment followed closely by Gira o. Id have darkrai (especially in this super balance metagame) next, palkia, then kyogre.

hehe lezz go!!! and since when has theorymon last played? Honest question because the metagame has moved a lot so his input could be a lil incomplete. 3 attacks timid dialga destroys most teams now, use that folks
 

Tomahawk

If you don't like stroopwafels you got to flikker op
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#23
agreed on darkrai / gira-o > groudon, deo-s is still amazing lead tho but to me that's hard to compare lead viabiltiy and overall viability. like, if opponent leads anti-deos lead it's definitely not S rank in that game but if he doesn't it is. so maybe you could move it down for inconsistency?

yeah move up bronzong

skymin is still godly.. but that's just my opinion. like, healing wish makes it twice as good to me

giratina normal is ass

i have never seen flygon used tbh.. scarf? i guess eq immunity and uturn is ok but personally i would never use it still

i agree with your top 5 (not the order entirely but that's personal preference i think). dialga is so amazing rn

also cloyster is better than most mons in current c rank and tentacruel (and quagsire) are better than most mons in current c- rank

Álso i feel wobb is too high at A+
 

shrang

Kylowole is shredded
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#24
Which ones should I have in S? I don't want to have too many Pokes in S rank (and I'm not keen on starting one of those silly S- ranks)