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Gen 4 DPP Ubers viability ranking thread (Now discussing Farceus viability)

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by shrang, Apr 23, 2014.

  1. Iris

    Iris

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    Giratina o, Dialga, kyogre, darkrai, palkia would be my top five at the moment. I've never liked palkia because people always scarf it, but haban and lustrous more than make up for people's old ways.

    Ray would be a close 6th, then deoxys, then groudon? I'd have to actually think about 6th and so on, but the first five put too much strain on team building to pass up.
    benbe, Mr.378 and zf like this.
  2. shrang

    shrang AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!
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    Haven't added Flygon and Gliscor yet, I'm thinking C and B respectively for both. Other changes have been made.

    Also, due to DPP's (relatively) dynamic metagame, different Pokemon (like Blissey) can be better at certain times than others. When I get time, I'm thinking of working on a more "long-term" viability ranking.
  3. Jibaku

    Jibaku Who let marco in here????
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    Latios being B+ is completely undeserved and should be A (mid). It's almost like saying Latias completely outclasses it but that's far from the truth.
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  4. Iris

    Iris

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    latios is somewhere behind ray ray and groudon. 4 attacks beats all of balance's checks, and the rare cm refresh will beat blisseys! momento screens is mentionable i guess but there is no honor nor fun in mew passing. roost 3 attacks is cool, roar is cool, cm surf is alright.

    I'd have him slightly below jirachi and deoxys at 9(?). Easily better than ttar, wobs, forretress (does nothing), chompy, kingdra skizzors, skymins; maybe a lil below mewtwo too. easily A material.
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  5. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Breaking hearts since '09
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    Time to revive :]
    Been playing alot of Gen 4 Ubers recently and it is a pretty fun tier tbh. Here are some changes I feel should be implemented:

    [​IMG] A+ to S
    Powerful setup sweeper, that can 6-0 teams that don't have dedicated checks or counters. Has great movepool, and can choose what checks and counters it. Great mon in general that could potentially rise.

    [​IMG] S to A+
    I have tried to use this mon, but it hasn't quite been quite effective. With the presence of Palkia, Darkrai and Dialga everywhere, it gets completely shut down by them. Also, with it's item always being Griseous Orb, it gets worn down by burn and toxic. Great mon, but don't feel that it is top tier.

    [​IMG] A+ to A/A-
    Although it is great at setting up hazards, it always ends up dying at the beginning of the battle. It automatically makes the match to 5-6, and shouldn't be ranked to high if it is gonna die right away, even though it's a great suicide lead.

    [​IMG] A to A-/B+
    Great Swift Swim sweeper, but kinda always gets outclassed by Palkia in power. Unfortunately has great opportunity cost.

    [​IMG] A- to A
    Great revenge killer and all around nuke that decimates unprepared teams, should rise a bit.

    [​IMG] B- to C-/D
    Honestly don't know why it is ranked so high. It is literally outclassed in every way by its other forms. Lead hazard setter= Deo S, Offensive sweeper= Deo A, Defensive hazard setter= Deo D. Just gets completely outclassed imo.
  6. Tomahawk

    Tomahawk If you don't like stroopwafels you got to flikker op
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    Rayquaza: Rayquaza is more limited than the current Pokémon in S rank. It can be great, but some battles it is also quite underwhelming. Rayquaza has a harder time against teams that aren't defensive from my experience, just hard to get an opportunity to set up. Look at all the current S rank Pokémon, he doesn't really set up against any of those. The same goes for the A+ rank Pokémon actually. It's just not as universally good as the current S rank mons.

    Giratina-O: Giratina-O is one of the most important Pokémon in the tier. Shouldn't be A+ rank. It's by far the best spinblocker (Giratina is a huge momentum killer and Gengar is extremely frail) and checks a lot of threats. Also, it can be quite scary of its own. Pretty much no Pokémon can switch in on all sets safely.

    Deoxys-S: No, sorry but it is not just 5-6. If you can get Stealth Rock and Spikes up in exchange for losing one Pokémon while they have no hazards and you get momentum, it's definitely worth it. Giratina-O being a great spinblocker and stopping literally every spinner means those hazards are staying up for good 9 out of 10 times, or more probably. And those hazards are great, that's on average around 25% damage on Pokémon switching out. (5x 25% is 125%, more than the 100% from being down 5-6)

    Kingdra: I guess it could go down to A-. When supported properly it can definitely be scarier than Palkia though. It's not that hard to get rain up for the entire game, in which case this is perhaps the best cleaner possible. Just a beast vs offense, it does have some problems though vs Dialga and Groudon admittedly.

    Deoxys-A: Not really a great revenge killer. Any priority will KO Deoxys-A with no problem, and it's not fast enough to outspeed most common non-priority sweepers either. DD Rayquaza, RP Groudon for example outspeed, while SD Lucario, SD Rayquaza for example KO easily with priority and don't care about ExtremeSpeed. If you use this as revenge killer, you're likely gonna have a lot of problems with those mons.

    Deoxys-N: I don't think you understand what makes Deoxys-N good. You say it is outclassed by the other Deoxys forms, which seems the case, but it actually beats those in the lead. Versus Deoxys-S it has enough Defense unlike Deoxys-A to survive 2 ExtremeSpeeds, making it able to KO it itself, either getting a layer of Spikes (or Stealth Rock) and limiting Deo-S to one layer, or if it Taunts prevent all hazards from Deo-S.
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  7. Iris

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    ray ray needs wobbs or a mono attacking ogre to set up in this metagame. i think if you look at every team in the sample thread, you will see how flexible each team is to prevent set up sweepers like ray cause it will 6-0 you.

    gira o constricts team building far too much and does too many things not ot be S. you can fit it on any team and be like, "yeah, my team is better vs all styles." the only place it doesn't fit is the specific niche of scarf gira, which is its 2nd best set behind the sub cm one. even all out defensive loses to all out defensive o just for the spikes + ground immunity

    deoxys makes dpp ubers dpp ubers. there is a reason tentacruel and cloyster and armaldo (but he beats darkrai!!) see play. rash deoxys s beats the 50/50 taunt crap, forretress, and still get spikes. also, it is worth noting cosmic power taunt toxic is viable but rarely used. it is slower to set up than mewtwo but would probably beat a lot of teams once you burn the dialga / jirachi. even then you pressure stall them.

    kingdra is pretty bad. spikes + sr weak + toxic spike weak + neutral to ray priority + needs Draco to kill means it won't last long nor can it sustain pressure long. sucks without rain too cause its modest base 85 so you will lose to a lot of stuff like neutral 90's and 95's. some 90's go up pretty high to beat fast heatrans.

    deoyxs a is a little better kingdra but is easy to play around and now you get skizzor as a revenger.

    deoxys n sucks cause espeed deoxys is like 2009 crap or somethin old. it still didn't beat signal beam deoxys. at least deoxys s can outspeed scarfers in the neutral 90's. this thing just blows now and to use admits you don't know the lead metagame right now.
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  8. Iris

    Iris

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    ill update this soon if people wanna still contribute
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  9. faint

    faint ima bring the cool whip
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    Gira-O should be like top-A imo... I'm definately not seeing S worthy material here. It's a damn good spin-blocker but this is a meta where Forry can run stuff like Payback to do decent damage on a switch.

    Latios at B+ is way too low. Should be pushed up to mid-A. DM just hits like a truck and it's not like something like EKiller can come in after the DM and setup.

    Kingdra should be B+ at best but I honestly think mid-B suits it better. I'm not sure where you guys are seeing the offensive power here because it really doesn't hit very hard. Plus any mon that literally relies on weather (and does not summon it itself) should not be anywhere near A.

    Deo-S should be S. A (basically) guaranteed SR + spike is just too good to not be. You're not down 5-6 either because even putting aside the fact that you have two hazards up you now have the momentum of sending in the best check/counter to their lead, forcing a switch to build up hazard damage + offensive pressure.

    quick and dirty version:

    Gira-O: S to Top-A
    Latios
    : B+ to Mid-A
    Kingdra
    : Mid-A to Mid-B
    Deo-S
    : Top-A to S
  10. Befall

    Befall Banned deucer.

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    Gira-O should stay S rank as it is versatile boasting viable mixed, physical and special sets. Also it is the best ghost type and spin blocker in the meta. Finally it is to constricting team building wise not to be S

    Latios at B+ is way too low. It can check kyogre one of the biggest threats in the meta along with having a great tier with speeding out all other dragons. Finally DM is a nuke

    Kingdra should be B-, it relies of weather to become a threat but can't really pressure opponents because after one draco it doesn't like the decrease in SpA. Also without rain it is utterly useless.

    Deo-S should be S. It guarantees SR + spike which allows offensive pressure to be put on the other time. Also the cosmic power set is threatening and doesn't really have a check aside from hitting hard.


    Gira-O: stays S
    Latios
    : B+ to Mid-A
    Kingdra
    : Mid-A to High-C
    Deo-S
    : Top-A to S
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2015
  11. Hack

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    SR+spikes being guaranteed from Deo-S is a huge overstatement. But since SR are p much guaranteed and the whole lead metagame is based around Deo-s I can see it being S anyway.

    Giratina-O is not only a spinblocker that more likely than not nullifies spin attempts with the right team set up, it is also a great blanket check/rkiller to a multitude of mons like groudon, latis and sd ray. It's a nifty anti lead for deo-s as it doesn't reveal much information about ones team in that scenario, as it is simply too splashable of a mon. It also runs a multitude of sets with great efficiency. It also buffs Deo-s a great deal with its qualities. Should stay S.

    Latios I agree with, strong mon overall.

    No real opinion of Kingdra, haven't used or played vs it much at all.
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  12. Iris

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    Forretress' paybacks are not noteworthy at all. Forretress has the niche of taking choice dragons, and those are disappearing one by one. It can't come in on anything these days except jirachi / skarmory / blissey and lugia. jirachi is either wishing or uturning, blissey is wishing, and the other two will have a slower, more defensive gira where payback doesn't do 33%. This isn't forretress' meta. Stall teams are ten, twenty, thousand times better running an anti spin lead than relying on forretress. I would only use forretress as a lead or have a pursuiter ready in the back.

    I think it is also important to note that when forretress finally kills gira, you get free set up or keep hazards away from the explosion.

    And hack should add lucario on the list. Adamant ray should die away soon though. People are really relying on timid dialga, kyogre, gira to help mitigate the ray pressure. so, take that into account.

    Cosmic power deoxys is the best. that is all.
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  13. faint

    faint ima bring the cool whip
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    Fair enough, Gira-O at S makes sense then. Admittedly I haven't played in a long time so I trust your judgment more than I do my own.

    Is shrang still updating this though? I believe there is more than enough support for a Latios bump and a Kingdra drop. Deo-S discussion can still happen, I guess.
  14. shrang

    shrang AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!
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    I've moved Latios up (B+ -> A) and Kingdra down (A -> B).

    I do agree with the Deo-S moving to S, but I don't want to add any more mons to S. One thing I don't like about the current ORAS viability ranking is how many mons get put in S simply because it's the trend at the time and people take a transient liking to it. I'm going to informally set a limit to the number of mons in S rank (so what it is now, 5), so if you want to push Deo-S up, you're going to have to bring something down. Personally, I'm not fine with Gira-O being dropped from S because it's probably the 2nd or 3rd most splashable mon in the tier right now.
  15. Iris

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    you would sadly drop the balance slayer darkraiiiii. everyone else would outvote me on k y ogre hehe.
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  16. Hack

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    I'd drop ogre too
  17. Sweep

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    as would I; i don't see it as dominant as a Giratina-O for example, because it doesn't really hard check / switch in on much in the metagame and many of the best pokemon in DPP are water resists
  18. Befall

    Befall Banned deucer.

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    I think of the 6 pokemon for consideration of S rank:

    Palkia
    Dialga
    Giratina-o
    Darkrai
    Kyogre
    Deoxys-S

    Palkia or Kyogre is the least meta changing. Leads are based off of Deoxys-S and warrants him to be S rank while Dialga and Giratina-O is so splashable on teams and constrict team building. Finally Darkrai wrecks balance teams and needs to be prepared for. Kyogre isn't able to switch in on a lot of the meta game and most resist water type to being with. Finally palkias only viable move set which is haban berry is kinda underwheleming

    252 SpA Life Orb Dialga Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Haban Berry Palkia: 283-334 (88.1 - 104%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock. Hazards are so common this gen that i feel Palkia is underwhelming.

    Palkia preferably then Kyogre

    On a side note why is Manaphy High B, I've played around 100 games of DPP Ubers and have only seen a few teams with it. Of them Manapy was horrible and outclassed by other special sweepers. It definitely shouldn't be higher than lucario and should move down
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2015
  19. Iris

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    if thats why you're finding haban palkia underwhelming, you might as well use lustrous / lum. i would hope lo dialga could ohko palkia
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  20. Tomahawk

    Tomahawk If you don't like stroopwafels you got to flikker op
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    actually i agree with iris and i'd say drop darkrai before ogre. but i gotta say what u said about deo-s is exaggerated a bit. it is far from guarantee for sr + spikes. it is at best a guarantee for sr and if you're lucky you get spikes. just look at a lot of common leads and they will stop deo-s from getting spikes. tyranitar, rayquaza, tentacruel, cloyster, giratina-o, darkrai, deo-n, skymin. in fact using a lead will mostly be based pretty much on how they deal with deo-s. i guess you could say that makes it s worthy but tbh i'm not sure. i'd prob keep it in a+ tho not 100% sure but i guess everyone wants s.

    also i don't really understand the limit of s rank? of course it's stupid to have like 15 s rank pokemon, but if something is worthy of s rank, make it s rank, and if it isn't, make it some other rank. don't base it on if some other mons are imo.

    ps u know palkia outspeeds dialga
  21. Befall

    Befall Banned deucer.

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    iris actually wants kyogre dropped but I could see how is comment can be perceived as confusing.
  22. shrang

    shrang AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!
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    Kyogre pretty much defined DPP, lol. It's so versatile it's not even funny - as long as your team doesn't have a clashing weather that you absolutely can't have Kyogre at all, you can virtually find a use for Kyogre on ANY team, be it wall, booster, tank, Scarf, whatever. I'm not keen on dropping it any time soon.

    Also:
    I get this sentiment, but from experience looking at the ORAS viability ranking and other viability rankings, Pokemon tend to be hyped over a short period of time due to the fact that they do well in the metagame of the time, and they get boosted up to wherever. I guess we could just drop them back down when the metagame shifts and they're not as good any more, but that doesn't always happen. I'd rather see a ranking system that ranks Pokemon in the long term. That being said, I don't want to have to impose a restriction if I don't have to, but I don't want to see S rank getting inflated. S rank is supposed to be the top, when lots of things are in that rank, nothing's "top". If nothing's "top" in a stand-out way, I'd rather obliterate S rank altogether because that's the whole point of an S rank.
  23. Hack

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    Kyogre is extremely overrated. Its checks are very splashable and very threatening. Yeah Kyogre is one of those mons you have to dedicate a slot to countering, but how hard is that in practice? Outside of hard checks like Latis/Palkia/Ludicolo you got a number of viable water resists and ways to pressure it. The prevalence of spikes nerfs severly limits its capability to break teams with water spout- look at BKC's Tenta/Mewtwo/scarfTar/Dialga/Giratina-O/Skarmory team: it doesn't even have a Kyogre counter in the strictest sense and still does fine vs it.

    In the last few years I've seen DPP being played, Kyogre hasn't shown me any of its supposed dominance, and if I'm correct this thread should reflect the current DPP Ubers meta, not its history.

    Versatility isn't as crucial when there exists universal ways of handling the mon- on a good day your cm mono ogre might get around the Palkia eventually, but that doesn't essentially mean you are versatile compared to stuff like Dialga/Palkia who slap around its supposed checks with different sets. While Lum+CM offensive Kyogre exists to add some value to the versatility point, I do not think it's enough to claim that it can fit on any team. It pretty much equates to the old argument that even if said mon can run several set, it doesn't really matter as the individual sets aren't exactly game breaking in the first place.

    I mean no one has actually quantified why Kyogre belongs in S-rank in the first place. It was just "supposed" to be there for the sake of some old notion of it being the best mon in the game. Dialga/Giratina-O are clearly more splashable, Darkrai/Palkia are more threatening and Deoxys-S defines the lead metagame.
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  24. shrang

    shrang AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!
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    1) You don't exactly need a full blown counter to some of the other S rank mons to seriously get by either. There are plenty of examples of teams that don't have a specific Dialga/Giratina-O/Palkia "counter" per se, but easily gets by without them.
    2) I agree that the thread should reflect the current metagame, but given DPP's nature of flutuating metagames, I also want to balance consistency across metagame shifts, and Kyogre consistently performs well in pretty much every metagame.
    3) I'm not talking about versatility rather than how splashable Kyogre is. You can't just base its viability on Kyogre's potency itself, but how much support it gives everything else. Like I said, unless you have a dedicated non-rain team (which coincidentally are not as viable as if you didn't make such a team), there WILL be some way that Kyogre can support any team. Period. Have you tried building a dedicated sun/sand team? They are so restrictive, and half the reason is because Kyogre is so good and so splashable that it just ruins them. Sure, they're viable, but you're better off without a specific non-rain team most of the time. Have you considered how quite a significant number of Pokemon on this viability ranking have their rank purely because Kyogre exists? Would Palkia be anywhere near as deadly if you didn't have Kyogre? Would *insert Swift Swimmer*? Would any of the Pokemon that are dedicated Kyogre checks be anywhere near as popular if Kyogre didn't do what it did? You're right that (because everyone has paid attention to Kyogre so much over the years) that it's relatively easy to keep Kyogre in check, but you can't deny that the entire metagame is virtually defined by Kyogre existing. It's for a similar reason Politoed is S in BW(2) OU. Politoed itself is a piece of shit, but the support it gave was the reason it's top tier.
    4) I don't know how you're supposed to quantify this, to be honest. Most things in Pokemon aren't very quantifiable. The only real objective ranking you can really use are usage rankings, but the last time we've had one of those in a systematic way, IIRC, Kyogre's usage was clearly #1 and way clear of the rest of the metagame (it wasn't getting 50%+ usages for nothing).
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2015
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  25. Iris

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    ho oh is sick and will destroy so many teams today, and we can use bkcs' mewtwo team for instance. groudon is a wasted space so ho oh plus scarf tar + forretress is less restrictive and more flexible. tickle pursuit or ttar pursuit is the only way youre spinning in this metagame though.


    fireburn should back me up. he likes my newish team.

    also, i don't know what a dedicated sand team is unless its lead ttar + chomper. thats scrapin the barrel. not like we are cradilying here.
    sun sweepers blow in general except ho oh who doesn't need sun (see oras).

    i don't feel like getting into new school / old school kyogre stuff at da moment
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