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DPP Wailmer (LC Analysis)'

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by kd24, Aug 23, 2009.

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  1. kd24

    kd24 lemme just whip my dick out and slam it on the table
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    [​IMG]

    [SET]
    name: Choice Scarf
    move 1: Water Spout
    move 2: Surf / Hydro Pump
    move 3: Ice Beam
    move 4: Hidden Power Grass / Earthquake / Selfdestruct
    item: Choice Scarf
    ability: Water Veil
    nature: Modest
    evs: 116 HP / 196 SpA / 196 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    <p>Wailmer is the only Pokemon in Little Cup who has access to Water Spout, which can be the strongest Water-type attack in Little Cup, depending on Wailmer's HP percentage. But with Wailmer's low Speed, Water Spout loses a lot of its usefulness, since Wailmer could very well be low on health by the time it uses it. Equipping a Choice Scarf to Wailmer is the easiest solution, allowing Wailmer to outspeed all Pokemon in Little Cup who do not have a Choice Scarf or have raised their Speed in some other manner.</p>

    <p>Water Spout can OHKO many of the fragile Pokemon in Little Cup, and will usually be the attack of choice from Wailmer. However, Stealth Rock, priority, and opponents surviving Water Spout and attacking back can really eat up a lot of Wailmer's HP. Surf or Hydro Pump is therefore used as the second attack, ensuring that Wailmer will continue to hit hard. Hydro Pump has plenty of power, but also has an accuracy of 80%. In such a fast paced metagame, accuracy can make all the difference. If you choose Surf, you do lose a lot of power but have perfect accuracy. The choice really comes down to preference. Ice Beam allows Wailmer to mainly take out Paras, who boasts an immunity to Water-type attacks, but it can also hurt other Grass-types, such as Treecko. In the last slot, Hidden Power Grass can be used to defeat Wooper, who is also immune to Water-type attacks, as well as other Water-types who resist Water Spout. Earthquake can be used to try and knock out Croagunk, who also has an immunity to Water Spout. However, Earthquake does leave Wailmer helpless against Gligar and Misdreavus, both of whom can take the opportunity to set up. Selfdestruct is a great way to finish off a Wailmer counter, especially if Wailmer has gotten too weak and can't abuse Water Spout anymore.</p>

    <p>Pokemon who are holding a Focus Sash are a major concern for Wailmer, as it will not be able to OHKO them with Water Spout, allowing them to hit back and take away some of Wailmer's health. Stealth Rock in conjunction with Wailmer is the best solution to this problem, as Stealth Rock also weakens other Pokemon and puts them into OHKO range. Paras and Croagunk, who are both immune to Water Spout and Surf, can prove to be very big problems for Wailmer. A Diglett with Earthquake, Aerial Ace, and Sucker Punch can be a great way to trap and eliminate these Pokemon. Porygon can make a fantastic partner to Wailmer, as it can Ice Beam or Thunderbolt any Water- or Grass-types who resist Wailmer's STAB attacks.</p>

    [Team Options]

    <p>As mentioned before, Stealth Rock and Diglett are two ways to really open up the playing field for Wailmer. If you can find time to Rain Dance, Wailmer can take advantage of it, as it boosts Wailmer's Water Spout and its other STAB attacks even more. Rain does heal Paras and Croagunk though, which is why Diglett is so important. A Pokemon with Pursuit is also handy for Gastly or Misdreavus, both of whom could very well be holding a Choice Scarf and have Thunderbolt.</p>

    <p>Wailmer is always going to have trouble with other Water-types, as they usually have enough bulk to withstand Wailmer's attacks. A Grass-type, like Budew or Bulbasaur, are good ways to eliminate any Water-types, and they can also take out Paras with their STAB Sludge Bomb attacks. A Fire-type, such as Houndour, is also very effective in OHKOing Paras or Croagunk, as well as OHKOing all other Grass-types. Houndour also has Pursuit to take out Choice Scarf Ghost- and Psychic-types.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>To be honest, Wailmer only has one viable set and that is the Choice Scarf set. Rest can have some use with Wailmer's huge HP and can boost Water Spout back to full power, but relying on Sleep Talk and hoping not to take a hit while sleeping is a big risk. A Choice Specs set could have some merit, but Wailmer is unfortunately cursed with a horrid Speed stat.</p>

    [EVs]

    <p>116 HP EVs give Wailmer 31 HP, enough to avoid Stealth Rock from cutting off too much. The rest of the EVs can be dumped into Special Attack and Speed, to make sure Wailmer gets off a fast and powerful Water Spout.</p>

    [Opinion]

    <p>Wailmer is a god at sweeping unprepared teams, but unfortunately, most teams do come prepared. Choice Scarf is a common item in Little Cup and if the opponent isn't packing Choice Scarf, then they surely have plenty of priority or Speed boosting moves waiting as well. If you are a smart player and can try and force out the secrets of their team early, you could have a very easy time knocking out an opponent's team.

    [Counters]

    <p>Croagunk, Wooper, and Paras all have an immunity to Water-type attacks, giving them immunity to half of the set. Other Choice Scarf Pokemon can really dent Wailmer, by taking away its powerful Water Spout and forcing him to use its merely decent Water-type attacks. Focus Sash, priority, and resistances are always a big problem for Wailmer, since it will be locked in one move.</p>
  2. bojangles

    bojangles IF YOU TRULY BELIEVE,
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    Nice job kd, comments in parentheses.
  3. kd24

    kd24 lemme just whip my dick out and slam it on the table
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    thank you!

    edit: and its all be fixed, thank you very much ibo ^_^
  4. Blue_Tornado

    Blue_Tornado

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    He doesn't get Selfdestruct. Too bad, eh?

    Also, I don't think EQ is worth that much of a mention. All it covers is Croagunk, and it may require a different nature along with it. I think HP Grass is the better choice by far.
  5. Jimbo

    Jimbo take me anywhere
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    According to bulbapedia, Wailmer gets Selfdestruct from XD just like Wailord does.
  6. kd24

    kd24 lemme just whip my dick out and slam it on the table
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    He does get Selfdestruct though in XD as a tutor move (not purification move)...
  7. Blue_Tornado

    Blue_Tornado

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    Hmm, then why is it lacking in Shoddy? There's no Selfdestruct in the team builder.

    @Edit: Oh wait, I just checked the CAP server team builder, and it's there. It's strange though that it's absent on the main team builder. Oh well.

    Oh, and yeah, Foresight got me once too ;p
  8. kd24

    kd24 lemme just whip my dick out and slam it on the table
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    Yes there is...

    Use Smogon Univeristy Team Builder, and scroll down, its a tutor move.
  9. supermarth64

    supermarth64 Here I stand in the light of day
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    Hydro Pump has 80% accuracy.
  10. kd24

    kd24 lemme just whip my dick out and slam it on the table
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    changing, thanks
  11. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
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    Few things for the moves, first Wooper (very rare) is not a main target for HP grass, its main use is for Chinchou, squirtle and the like. More importantly I have found HP Ground to be far superior as it is a great threat (iirc sometimes a 1KO) to Croagunk who is many players first reaction to Wailmer and still deals effectively with chincy. HP Grass gives a free switch to Croagunk. Accounting for the difference in EVs and the - attack nature, HP Ground is actually more powerful then EQ even is you use timid not modest (HP G: 16x70=1120, EQ: 11x100=1100). Ice Beam is also not entirely required, it is very rarely used other than against Paras (or Croagunk is you lack HP Ground), I have run a Water Spout/Hydro Pump/HP Ground/Selfdistruct tset with great success.

    Timid is also worth thinking about, the difference between 22 and 24 speed is not the most important jump but it does make a difference in some important matchups, for example scarf cranidos.

    Not tested it but with the second highest HP in LC and a decent defencive type a bulky set (maybe Rain support?) must be somewhat viable.

    In team options you seem to imply that a Houndour would be able to beat Croa, every croa will carry VW and 1KO you before houndour gets a chance to attack. Maybe ponyta or some less vulnerable fire type? Also a vast majority of Paras will Spore on your switch so finding an effective way to deal with them is not as simple as just getting something that can ko.

    Putting 116 in HP does nothing to change how much you take from SR. better overall defences are gained by putting 36 Evs in HP and 76 in one of the defences. EV section should also note how to correct for IV loss from hidden power.

    Opinion could do with some expanding, maybe talk about how it can take down Bronzor with Water Spouts, is surprisingly bulky considering its power (can comfortably take a Gligar EQ/Munchlax Return/Missy SB, ect), that it can be used as a lead.

    For counters... Chincy is a good response to the main set, it can switch in on any attack bar a SE hidden power or selfdistruct. Oran Munchlax can just about handle anything (bar selfdistruct), but even max/max+ can take upwards of 50% from water spout (45.45% - 54.55% to be precise). Standard Oran Bronzor is 2KOd through Oran berry 24% of the time.
  12. kd24

    kd24 lemme just whip my dick out and slam it on the table
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    ill add hp ground in. for some reason, chinchou slipped my mind, will mention how hp ground or hp grass can ko it. hp grass will be main move still though, i think hitting other waters is the most important. ill take out eq for you.

    i suppose, but dont you lose the ko on bronzor? i might mention it if i can.

    i havent seen a reason to not use water spout and i tried rest/stalk, just don't like it at all really :(. if we can get some more testers with approval, then i might add it :/. i think we have plenty of rain support already though.

    i mention houndour because it can pursuit ghosts which can be a big help at times and could ohko croa. i kind of meant trying to catch croa on switch-ins with houndour, or even use sash. i will mention ponyta though as a much safer, bulkier option. i was somewhat assuming people expected spore and would probably sacrifice something to spore before trying to ko it. ill mention it though to clear things up.

    it gives wailmer 31 hp (odd numbers are better when confronting SR) but i guess overall defenses would be better. thanks.

    ok.

    ok will do.
  13. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
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    I was thinking more on the lines of Hydro Pump/Selfdistruct/HP <something>/Ice Beam@Oran, kinda as a lure for the many water immune Pokemon that switch in and think they have a free turn.

    Choice Specs' mention in OO could be expanded, it does grant awesome power. Even 2KOing things that resist it in some cases, and 16 speed is not exactly "horrible", more not enough to match most sweepers.

    sounds good
  14. Rave

    Rave

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    I've never tried it with Wailmer, but Specs/Mystic Water Wailord is extremely effective with Trick Room support. Of course, Water Absorb feels more common in Little Cup and four turns is really killed by that if you don't set up correctly. Perhaps it warrants testing.

    I think a mention needs to go to Wailmer having a great typing against priority. Another mention needs to go to the impact entry hazards have. Dual Screens and Wish are both good ways to keep Water Spout's power healthy. Admittedly I'm not sure about Wish in Little Cup however. Dual Screen Wish Passing Hypno works amazingly in UU; spreading status, taking special hits, and keeping Wailord healthy. Perhaps Drowzee is effective as well?

    Apologies that I'm not as familiar as I should be.
  15. Mailman

    Mailman

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    Perhaps adding a part in the analysis in which it gives you EV spreads for different hidden powers since Wailmer does require another 4 EVs invested in each stat if you lower the IV by one.
    Also Mantyke should also be liste in counters as it is also immune to water and has a base SpD stat of 120 and only worries of Selfdestruct and some Wailmer that carry Hidden Power.
  16. MegaKick

    MegaKick

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    at least in other options, mayby mention a set with oran berry? You keep saying he has low speed, so mention he's a viable trick roomer.
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