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DPPt Lead Discussion Topic

Discussion in 'Archives' started by Colonel M, Oct 21, 2008.

  1. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
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    Okay guys I'm going to restart this. With Platinum in tow we need to learn the new leads that seem viable and weed out the old ones that just aren't as great as before. This means that the old one I contributed is severely outdated and I will do my best to have something like an update on this sort of ordeal once the full article is written.

    Also, I'd like to give credits to RB Golbat who 1) suggested to me that I restarted this and 2) is willing to help with this.

    I first felt that a discussion topic was in order to help learn some of the most effective leads and why. We already know about Pokemon such as Bronzong making an excellent lead but we've never discussed Suicide Leads, Anti-Leads, etc. So for this reason we're going to outline certain types of leads:

    - Suicide Lead
    What falls into this category?
    == Anything that carries Stealth Rock, Spikes, or Toxic Spikes, and usually combines the use of Focus Sash. These leads in general have one goal set in mind: setting up Stealth Rock and either sweeping as much as possible or Exploding. Some of these carry Taunt in their movesets to shut down other set-up leads.

    == It is hard to elaborate what a Suicide Lead exactly does because in reality it can do multiple things at once. Endeavour has started to become a new niche for many Pokemon and some take advantage of it. Some rather prefer total coverage and shut down as many leads as possible. In reality there are many things that could be described as a Suicide Lead as they have once goal in mind: support the team in some way to its maximum effect.

    Examples: Infernape, Azelf, Aerodactyl

    - Dual Screen Lead
    What falls into this category?
    == These carry Reflect and Light Screen in their movesets. They have a plethora of other options to consider though usually they set-up for their allies to sweep easier. Pokemon like Heatran, Suicune, and Salamence love this in their teams.

    Examples: Azelf, Bronzong, Rotom Appliances

    - Anti-Lead
    What falls into this category?
    == There are many Pokemon that can fall in here. These Pokemon have niche movesets or even regular movesets that set them apart to being a great lead. Whether it's the use of Lum Berry, Trick, or Hypnosis, any of these type of Pokemon cause trouble against their opponent. They could also carry many other moves such as Brick Break, Taunt, a priority move, U-Turn, or Pursuit.

    Examples: Metagross, Scizor, Crobat, Porygon2

    - Bulky Leads
    What falls into this category?
    == These Pokemon don't have much Speed behind their backs; however, they can make other Pokemon's life hell when given the chance. They have no liability of using Focus Sash at all and can easily crush some of the other leads.

    Examples: Swampert, Bronzong

    - Lighting-Speed Leads
    What falls into this category?
    == Pokemon that have either a high Speed stat or Choice Scarf perhaps in particular, these Pokemon usually attempt an early sweep. Some of these carry Focus Sash on top of them to give more of a chance with elminating other threats.

    Examples: Azelf, Gengar, Weavile

    - Weather Leads
    What falls into this category?
    == There are many Pokemon that can fall into this type of lead. Whether it's learning Rain Dance or Sunny Day that give them the niche of helping their teammates is what counts. There's also the auto-weather Pokemon such as Hippowdon and Abamosnow who easily set-up the weather with no problems. Also to include in the list is Trick Room. Despite it not being an actual "weather"-type move, it does have merit of being a change of pace for the next 5 turns of the battle taking everything slower to move ahead of the game.

    Examples: Bronzong, Electrode, Hippowdon, Abamosnow

    - Baton Pass Leads
    What falls into this category?
    == These Pokemon usually carry the move Baton Pass (duh). They pass a myriad of boosts to their teammates or niche moves such as Ingrain. They fear Taunt and priority leads.

    Examples: Ninjask, Smeargle

    An example of how these above will be done:
    After we've described what types of leads there are, we are giving examples of who falls into their category. Some Pokemon like Bronzong will fall into many categories while others such as Weavile fall into one.

    With all that said and done we go into where we describe Pokemon that are effective leads, what they can do, and why they are great leads. After that we will mention Pokemon that make shaky leads but could possibly work with care (such examples being Gengar and Skarmory). Of course we also will conclude it and such. So this will work similair to the ADV Starter Topic. Use this for reference. Also, we will list how to counter the leads that you fear the most just so you're aware of what to do when you see the Pokemon.

    Here is also an example of the in-depth discussion:
    So now you're asking "Hey Colonel M what can I do?" It is very simple: help contribute to it. Intelligent discussion is highly recommended and appreciated; this means no bullshit such as "Electivire makes a good lead because it can hit many Pokemon for super effective damage." Sorry folks but this is a serious discussion. Not to sound like an ass I'm afraid but I want to make that clear. You can help describe Pokemon that fall into such categories or even explain what a certain Pokemon can do as a lead. Remember that this is geared toward Platinum and not D/P.

    And now, I ask for us to start! Here's a small list that I am going to use so far:

    Azelf
    Tyranitar <--- Colonel M
    Bronzong
    Metagross <--- Colonel M
    Gengar <--- Colonel M
    Zapdos <--- Colonel M
    Infernape <--- Colonel M
    Scizor <--- Colonel M
    Aerodactyl <--- Colonel M
    Hippowdon <--- RB Golbat
    Salamence <--- RB Golbat
    Gyarados <--- Colonel M
    Ninjask <--- RB Golbat
    Yanmega
    Shaymin-S <--- Colonel M
    Weavile
    Roserade <--- RB Golbat
    Heatran <--- Colonel M
    Machamp <--- RB Golbat
    Swampert <--- Colonel M
    Crobat <--- Colonel M
    Abamosnow <--- Colonel M
    Jirachi <--- Colonel M
    Ambipom <--- RB Golbat
    Togekiss <--- RB Golbat
    Jolteon <- Colonel M
    Forretress <--- Colonel M
    Smeargle <--- RB Golbat
    Porygon2 <--- Legacy Raider
    Electrode <--- Colonel M

    These are the top 28 leads from October usage, including Pory2 and Electrode. #1 was Deoxys-S; however, it is declared Uber.

    So, let's go!
  2. gorm

    gorm
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    gotta prop yanmega as a lead, protect helps vs trick leads, and it lives through most priority attacks (including cp scizor bp) and ca ohko back with hp fire. it's annoying to have to choose scizor or heatran coverage and zapdos is still annoying but its ratehr successful as a lead and can scout teams pretty effectively.


    also add gross, max speed trick/sr/mm/boom @ choice scarf is excellent for messing people up and with gross' resists its easy to get sr down. everything that taunts you hates mm (besides heatran leads which you should switch out of anwyays) and boom is an excellent move especially with max speed
  3. RBG

    RBG It feels like a perfect night to dress up like hipsters
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    Suicide leads should also include Toxic Spikers, and Spikers.

    Also, there should be some mention of pokemon that are 2 or 4 times weak to stealth rock as lead.

    The section about Anti-Lead section is the most dynamic and should probably not really name pokemon, rather, mention how to analyze the current metagame in order to build a proper anti-lead.

    Lastly Doug's lead Stats might help.
  4. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
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    Added everything that was suggested. Still nervous about adding Heatran because it's usually better nowadays as a Scarf or Substitute user. I might add it anyways in a short time. I tried elaborating the Suicide Lead a little bit more and need to ask: add Baton Pass leads?

    Also RB Golbat I'll keep the x2 and x4 Stealth Rock weaks in mind when I start the Guide. I don't want to add it right now in here to prevent cluttering. Also, I might just edit this post here for notes.

    - Mention x2 and x4 Stealth Rock weak Pokemon
    - Metagross with Trick + Choice Scarf
  5. Syberia

    Syberia [custom user title]
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    Tyranitar can be a Weather lead, Anti-lead, and a slow but effective lead, all in one.
  6. Captain Falcon

    Captain Falcon

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    consider adding qwilfish to your list. It is fairly incommon but is one of the best rain dance leads.

    Qwilfish@focus sash
    Adamant 252Atk/252Spe
    Rain dance
    Aqua tail/waterfall
    Taunt
    Explosion

    Simple. Just dance turn 1 so swift swim activates and then aqau tail/explosion as is appropriate. Taunt shuts down setup leads like
    deoxys-E. I use this on my rain dance team and it usually nets 1-2 kills as well as getting rain up turn 1.
  7. Gmax

    Gmax kuahahahaha
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    Mhmm, I love this thing. Booming gives you one extra turn of RD to work with straight up and lets you get your opponent's bulky water that he'll be using to block your main RD sweeper. That means you can go about destroying it before setting up RD with a Damp Rock Pokemon or something. Taunting random shit is cool too.
  8. RBG

    RBG It feels like a perfect night to dress up like hipsters
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    We are trying to discuss the concepts that go into choosing your lead pokemon, how to use them, how to counter them, and how to make your own for your own needs.

    We are not listing every lead that is useful, rather we are working on getting discussion done so that we can get an article written.
  9. Amelia

    Amelia

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    I've seen several Explosion Leads before, they carry like Lum Berry or Sleep Talk + Explosion only and explode on leads so that they might not have time to set up screens or Stealth Rock.

    Like a Deoxys-s Taunting a Metagross fearing a Trick and getting exploded in the face.

    But the only lead i've seen in this category is Metagross...
  10. Zoro

    Zoro

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    The awesome Solrock Lead Chrisisme presented,

    Solrock @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
    Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Rock Slide
    - Earthquake
    - Explosion

    Suicide Lead ^_^
  11. Captain Falcon

    Captain Falcon

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    but surely if you explode your lead straight away then you are at best on equal footing or at worst they're sashed or they switched in a ghost...
  12. nardd

    nardd

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    that solrock can't be fast enough to sr and explode, can it?

    for example, what would you do against a suicide azelf?
  13. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
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    Added Heatran and Baton Pass Leads. Really that Lead is self-explainatory so I didn't put much in there.

    As RB Golbat said the main goal is to emphasize leads that are common in OU and work very well. Gorm and Syberia give decent examples to this. This is why I haven't mentioned Qwilfish and not sure about mentioning Solrock (at the moment).
  14. RBG

    RBG It feels like a perfect night to dress up like hipsters
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    I think "slow" leads should be replaced with "bulky", mainly because being bulky helps more than being slow does, and it is the bulkyness that allows them to be effective as leads.

    Also, Trick Room should be added to "weather"
  15. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
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    Adding those right now. Forgot about Trick Room. Thanks RB Golbat.
  16. RBG

    RBG It feels like a perfect night to dress up like hipsters
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    Baton Pass Leads:
    Role: To use stat up moves and pass them away to another Pokemon to get an early advantage. Usually, the are focusing on Baton Passing Speed and Attack/Special Attack Boosts to teammates. If they start with Ingrain or Defense/Special Defense Boosts, they are most likely setting up a Baton Pass Chain.

    How to use: Use a stat up move, then Baton Pass to a Pokemon that hopefully resists the attack your foe will use.

    How to counter: Taunt. Hazing and Psuedo-Hazing also works well to counter these leads. If you can't do either of these, then your counter depends on what type of Stat-Upping they are doing. If they are raising Speed and Attacking Stats, then you want to either switch to a wall, or just hit hard with attacks so that you either break the Passer or severely damage the recipient. Speed boosts are also countered by Trick Room and Gyro Ball. If they are Raising Defense stats, then you want to hit as hard as possible before they can get too many boosts, or else they will be hard to stop once they pass the boosts away. Although not very reliable, using high Critical Hit ratios moves might also work, since Critical Hits ignore defense modifiers (when Defense/Special Defense level is +1 or higher).

    Common Examples:

    Smeargle - This guy is capable of learning every move in the game, which gives it the honor of being the only pokemon able to Baton Pass an Ingrain, which prevents Roar and Whirlwind from stopping you. Usually, they will also have Spore or a Focus Sash to ensure that they are able to get of the Baton Pass.

    Ninjask - Ninjask is a beast at passing stats. Capable of making substitutes knowing that it will go first helps it to build up Speed Boosts. If you are able to get a substitute up without being destroyed, then feel free to Swords Dance or give your recipiant a free switch in.

    Drifblim - Notable for being the having the highest Base HP of all Baton Passers, as well as 3 immunities, as well as access to Hypnosis (if you want to rely on it's 60%). Just like with Ninjask, Substitute , except replace Swords Dance with Calm Mind. You will most likely want to hold a Pinch Berry, so that when you activate your third substitute, you also activate Unburden, which will double Drifblim's speed, almost ensuring it will be able to pass its giant Substitute. (Note:The Unburden boost is not passable)



    Is this the type of format we want for the article? Or should common examples be grouped at the bottom?
  17. jumpluff

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    Small thing, but in the phazing bit about defense in BP leads, you could also mention switching to a Pokémon that abuses critical hits [like Absol], if you have one, could be of use, as crit. hits ignore modified defenses
  18. Bourbon

    Bourbon

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    Porygon2 can go under the Trick Room category as well. Porygon2 is one of the better Trick Roomers thanks to his Normal typing.

    All the other ones are Ghosts or Psychics, making Porygon2's general bulkiness and lack of weaknesses (when compared to other TR pokemon) make it an excellent Trick Room lead.
  19. DimSum

    DimSum

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    Shaymin-s could go under lighting fast leads. It can easily function as a great CS lead, outpacing most suiciders/other Scarf Leads. Messes up stuff trying to set up with Air Slash hax. Modest Specs Variants OHKO Tar with Seed Flare with minimal SpDef EV's invested and non boosting nature, I believe. But, reiterating my first comment, it's hit or miss with rendering Set up leads uselsss. ScarfModest Air Slash 2HKO's Azelf and Deoxsys usually, and nulling their set up is always nice.

    List looks good otherwise.
  20. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
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    As pertaining to Skiddle they are just minor examples. Listing everyone isn't really a good idea in my opinion because you'd see Bronzong on just about every lead excluding Baton Pass and Fast leads.

    RB Golbat hit the nail on how we will do these. Explaination of it all, strategy, how to counter, and elaborating the examples. I will put this in the OP to show how we will outline this. Also, as another example here is the "in-depth" description of a Pokemon:

    Bronzong

    Classification
    - Bulky Lead
    - Double Screen Lead
    - Weather Lead
    - Anti-Lead

    A Pokemon that can simply "do almost everything", Bronzong is capable of being a very versatile lead. What makes him great as a lead is his wide support movepool: ranging from Rain Dance and Trick Room to having the capability of using both Light Screen and Reflect. Stealth Rock, Hypnosis, Trick, and a myriad of both physical and special moves make it hard to figure out what exactly Bronzong is doing right from the start. His 67 base HP may sound shaky until you realize his 116 base defenses, his Steel/Psychic typing, and finally his Levitate ability makes it a rather difficult Pokemon to bring down. Given this in mind his base 33 Speed is also acceptable to take advantage of his STAB Gyro Ball as well as Trick Room. He boasts many things that other Pokemon cannot such as niche resistances to Rock, Normal, Grass, Flying, Ice, Steel, Psychic, and Dragon-types as well as boasting an immunity to Poison and Ground-type moves make Bronzong an excellent combination for a lead.

    Bronzong's only true weakness is the restriction to four moves. Stealth Rock is usually taken into account as one move and from there it becomes difficult to choose from. It is easy to Counter thanks to Taunt; however, most Taunt users such as Deoxys-S and Azelf won't enjoy a STAB Gyro Ball either.

    Counters

    There aren't many strategies to countering Bronzong. Taunt as said above will at least cripple Bronzong's capabilities of aiding his teammates long enough but it takes quite a few attacks to pass through him. Fire attacks will at least dent Bronzong; most Pokemon such as Azelf are capable of 2HKO'ing with Fire Blast. Heatran can at least attempt to stop most of Bronzong's abilities if it lacks Earthquake, albiet rare. Zapdos, Gyarados, and Moltres both resist STAB Gyro Ball as well as Earthquake and have their own ways of taking down Bronzong whether it's Heat Wave from Zapdos, Taunt and Dragon Dance from Gyarados, or STAB Flamethrower / Fire Blast from Moltres.

    How's that? (By the way don't grammar nitpick this, it's more of an example if anything and I'm picking at it right now).
  21. RBG

    RBG It feels like a perfect night to dress up like hipsters
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    Except for the fact that you neglect (at all) to mention Heatproof (for the incredible mind games you can play) that is amazingly awesome and what we need! Shoot, start editing the main post and you and I can work on this article slowly, but surely.

    How many leads should we mention in the article? And do we focus the leads only on OU?
  22. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
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    For now we should focus on OU. I want to wait for UU to balance out before we attempt that metagame and Ubers I'm still unsure about. I'm going to say OU for now, Ubers could plausibly be next, and then UU. And I guess I should mention Heatproof because it is quite a mindgame.

    For how many to mention... I'm not sure. 25 - 30 I would hit as a minimum or a maximum. To outline how many is difficult in all honesty because there are many possibilities and such. While working on the Platinum revamps I'm going to keep an eye on some of the other leads and work on some. People, feel free to still add to this. The outlines given above are how it will be done. As for how to at least do the in-depth analysis:

    [size=the number 3]name of Pokemon [/size]

    Classification
    - Name what type(s) of lead(s) it can be

    In-Depth Discussion
    (Insert Stuff here)

    [size=the number 3]Counters[/size]
    (Insert plausible Counters here)
  23. Shinryu

    Shinryu

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    IIRC, Breloom is a pretty fun anti-lead to use (http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/breloom).

    Spore is 100% accurate and shuts down anything not carrying Lum Berry, Mach Punch OHKOs Weavile and friends, Protect lets you scout out Scarfers, and Seed Bomb makes Swampert queasy.
  24. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
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    If this was D/P I'd be inclined to agree. There are, however, some problems to the concept of Anti-Lead Breloom nowadays.

    The rise of Infernape leads shuts this particular strategy down. On top of that Crobat completely nullifies it. Zapdos as well. I think while I liked the concept of it, Breloom just is too difficult to use a lead nowadays. If anyone would like to argue this then feel free too. I'm not going to automatically shut this down; rather, just turn it down unless someone can prove that it's still effective even in this current metagame.
  25. RBG

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    Starting the 3 more, Colonel M has the other 3
    ------------------
    Suicide Leads:
    Role: Set up either spikes, stealth rock, toxic spikes, or a weather, and then usually die while doing so.

    How to use: Set up whatever move you have. Taunt if you are faster so you opponent doesn't set up any moves.

    How to counter: More often than not, it is impossible to stop. Many suicide leads carry taunt and focus sash, ensuring they will get their move setup. Only way to counter is by using Rapid Spin to clear the entry hazard after the lead has committed Suicide. If it was a Dual Screen Suicide lead, then Brick Break or Defog will remove screens. If they set up a weather, then stall it out or use another weather move.

    Common Examples:

    Aerodactyl: One of the fastests taunters in the game, it is capable of setting up Stealth Rock, as well as prevent the opposing lead from setting up Entry Hazards. It's Sandstorm immunity also prevents a Tyranitar lead from breaking his focus sash.

    Electrode: The fastest taunter allowed in OU. It is a popular lead for Rain Dance teams, as it not only can taunt and set up Light Screen and Reflect, it can use the Rain to hit with STABed never miss Thunders.

    Azelf: Another fast taunter. It can set up Dual Screens, Stealth Rock, Rain, or Sun. Azelf stands out from the rest of the Sucide leads, because it can explode off its 125 Base Attack to do some serious damage and allow the next pokemon to switch in with getting attacked.
    --------------

    Weather Leads:
    Role: To set up a Weather Effect or other temporary effects to benefit the whole team in future turns. Weather Effects or other temporary effects include Rain, Sun, Sandstorm, Hail, Gravity, and Trick Room.

    How to use: If it's auto-Weather, send it in and its first job is done. If it's not then, spend your first turn using the appropriate move to set up.

    How to counter: More often than not you can't stop the weather. If it's one of the Auto-Weather Starters (Abomasnow, Hippowdon, Tyranitar), you can't unless you have one of the true Weather Effects on your team. To counter the effects of the weather, then either use a Pokemon that also benefits from the weather, or use a wall to stall them until the weather ends.

    Common Examples:

    Swift Swim/Chlorophyll Pokemon: These pokemon are common weather starters, benefiting immediately from the weather. After setting up the weather, they can use the newly given speed boost to get in an attack with their newfound speed and an attack boost from the weather.

    Bronzong: Bronzong is capable of setting up 2 different types of weather that benefit it. If you use Rain Dance, then Fire attacks will be weakened, effectively giving it no weaknesses. Trick Room allows it take advantage of its molasses slow speed and hits with a strong Gyro Ball, "outspeeding" almost everything. It can also allow free switch ins for it's teammates by exploding, destroying a potential counter in the process.

    -----------------

    Bulky Leads:
    Role:

    How to use:

    How to counter:

    Common Examples:

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