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DPPt Lead Discussion Topic

Discussion in 'Archives' started by Colonel M, Oct 21, 2008.

  1. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
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    I'm adding my three to edit later.

    Anti-Leads

    Role: Roughly describing this role is difficult. Anti-Leads have one goal in mind: to counter the most used leads in the current metagame. With this set in mind they carry niche items as well as movesets that aren't normally considered normally.

    How to use: These types of leads aren't as simple on the field as they are on paper. An Anti-Lead's goal is to either eliminate the opponent or shut it down. There are many ways to do this strategy by using moves such as Taunt, Trick, or a status move. There are niche items such as Lum Berry that is also considered. Other moves such as Brick Break, priority moves, Explosion, and Pursuit also are commonly used as well.

    How to counter: It can be very difficult to counter such type of leads because their movesets differ with ones normally used. The best way to counter an Anti-Lead is to attempt to guess what moves it could possibly have. For example Bronzong will almost always carry Gyro Ball and usually Stealth Rock. From there it's considering the movesets that are used.

    Common Examples:

    Metagross: A Pokemon that is capable of taking on many leads. Faster, frailer leads suffer from a combination of Meteor Mash and Bullet Punch. Stealth Rock is also a considered move for his movepool, allowing him to take advantage of the field on turn one. Trick and Reflect are moves that are also acceptable with his support movepool. Finally a lot of Metagross leads finish off with a big bang by Explosion.

    Crobat: Hypnosis and Taunt is an awesome combination with Crobat as well as boasting U-Turn with him as well. 130 Speed also gives Crobat the capability of using the fast Hypnosis and Taunt to his advantage.

    Weavile: A very useful lead when used correctly. The combination of Fake Out and either Pursuit or Ice Shard is very useful as many leads are usually fragile. Weavile can use Taunt, Brick Break, or Counter to take advantage of the situation if necessary. Counter is a rather risky strategy but can be rewarding since the vast majority of leads usually are physically oriented.
    ---

    Lightning Speed Leads

    Role: The main goal is to outpace as many opponents as possible and being able to do enough damage to most leads.

    How to use: To use this is quite simple really. Most Pokemon that have a higher base Speed of 100 or at least wield a Choice Scarf are perfect examples of this. These Pokemon attempt a sweep straight-forward when they enter most of the time or threaten a switch.
    How to counter: A lot of bulky leads usually have a role of putting a lot of these Pokemon into submission. Bronzong is a likely candidate due to STAB Gyro Ball gaining a lot of power thanks to the Speed difference among the two Pokemon. Hippowdon can make a mention, despite being mostly a Weather Lead, to shrug off most physically oriented Pokemon with Slack Off and his own STAB Earthquake as well as Ice Fang. Also anything that is faster than the usual Lightning Speed lead gets a mention of having a higher chance of eliminating the opponent.

    Common Examples:

    Weavile: A Pokemon with 120 Attack and 125 Speed as well as decent STABs to back him up. His moves lack the base power sometimes to take on some threats; however, the help of either Choice Band or Swords Dance makes all the difference. Be weary if you're lead is a Ghost-type and is slower than Weavile because chances are the Choice Band variants commonly carry Pursuit for that reason.

    Infernape: Base 108 Speed backed up with 104 attack stats for each spectrum is a force to be reckoned with. Carrying STAB Fire Blast as well as Close Combat manages to make Infernape the perfect candidate to carry moves such as Grass Knot and Hidden Power Ice. He has the niche to use Focus Sash and Nasty Plot and still pull off a good sweep if necessary.

    Choice Scarf: Not a Pokemon but a good item example. A lot of Pokemon have an excellent movepool but rather average Speed. The solution? Choice Scarf compliments these and is capable of catching many leads off-guard. There are also many possibilities of making the said Pokemon a mixed sweeper with the ability of having no gains other than Speed. There's also many Pokemon that can commonly carry Trick alongside Choice Scarf to not only outpace many leads but also cripple other leads with shock and awe.
    ---

    Dual Screen Leads
    Role: The main goal of a Dual Screen lead is to set-up both Reflect and Light Screen.

    How to use: Algonside the Light Clay item, you simply use Reflect and then Light Screen. With these in play, the teammates behind the lead can bask in success as the opponent tries to thwart them off with the opponent's attacks doing half damage. Eight turns on the field also makes it really scary. Support from Safeguard, Taunt, or Explosion are good options to consider.

    How to counter: Brick Break and Taunt are the only counters to this strategy unfortunately. Brick Break users are limited; however, Weavile and Scizor tend to be the best ones. Taunt users are also sparse, especially those that tend to be faster than some Pokemon. Crobat and Aerodactyl are the fastest Taunt users that exist in the OU environment and they can easily Taunt with little problems.

    Common Examples:

    Bronzong: A Pokemon that can "do everything and then some", Bronzong can easily use Reflect and Light Screen. On top of that, Bronzong has Hypnosis, Safeguard, and Explosion for extra protection. Stealth Rock is also common on some of these Bronzong.

    Azelf: A faster lead than Bronzong, Azelf can quickly use Reflect and Light Screen. Usually Taunt and Stealth Rock follow; however, Explosion can be a surprise use for Azelf. U-Turn also has its generic use of easing prediction.
    ---
  2. Legacy Raider

    Legacy Raider
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    This is just a little something on Weavile. I wasn't sure if we are writing analyses on individual pokemon or lead type classifications. I've added this anyway, but if it is out of place or wrong then feel free to remove it. Col M, I followed your formatting in your Bronzong example.

    --------------------------------------------------
    Weavile
    [​IMG]

    Classification

    - Anti-Lead
    - Lightning-Speed Lead

    In-Depth Discussion

    With excellent Attack and Speed, Weavile makes a prime candidate as a Lightning-Speed lead to start the game off before your opponent can make a move. However, what really sets it apart from many other speedy pokemon is its wide array of disruptive attacks, which gives it great potential as an Anti-Lead.

    Firstly there is Fake Out. This is a great move on something as powerful and frail as Weavile, allowing it to deal decent damage (20+%) to many other frail leads. The primary purpose of this move is to destroy the opposing pokemon's Focus Sash, an item that many lead pokemon rely on to ensure they set up Stealth Rock. Examples of this include Azelf and Aerodactyl, both of whom are then quickly dispatched with a Night Slash / Ice Shard respectively. Weavile also boasts the ability to use Taunt. This can shut down many leads that like to set-up at the start and is the bane of a Baton Pass or Sleep lead. Not many leads outspeed Weavile, and so are unable to do a thing as they are taunted and their attempt at setting up Stealth Rock / put Weavile to sleep is foiled. Baton Pass leads are unable to pass once they have been Taunted, so their entire purpose is effectively voided. Weavile also has access to Ice Shard, which serves as a great way of getting rid of faster frail threats such as Ninjask, Shaymin-S, Crobat, and the aforementioned Aerodactyl.

    Brick Break also finds it way onto Weavile's arsenal and makes it an excellent counter to Dual Screen leads. Brick Break gets rid of both Light Screen and Reflect in addition to doing damage and so is a good way of making opposing Screen leads waste turns. Another great quality that Weavile possesses is his dual Dark / Ice STAB combination which scores a super-effective hit on many other common leads. Bulky leads tend to give Weavile trouble, but it does still have one great way of dealing with them: Counter. Because of its paper defenses, many bulky leads such as Bronzong, Metagross and Swampert may elect to simply get rid of Weavile by attacking. Counter is Weavile's ace in the hole against such leads - by surviving an attack with Focus Sash and Countering back, it can OHKO many unsuspecting foes. Weavile can also use Taunt to ensure that the opponent attacks, which can be a great way of ensuring you do not try to Counter a Stealth Rock.

    Weavile has so many great options - the problem is he can only use 4 of them at a time. Although it has a way of dealing with almost any lead in its movepool, many a time it may find itself with out the required move to deal with the opponent: e.g. facing Bronzong without Counter or Aerodactyl without Ice Shard. But it is the knowledge that Weavile can deal with their lead that may cause many opponent's to switch, and it is this unpredictability and movepool diversity that makes Weavile such a threatening Anti-Lead.

    Counters

    As already mentioned, Bulky Leads can give Weavile a lot of trouble, especially if they sport neutrality to its STAB attacks. Bronzong, Metagross and Swampert have already been mentioned, but Tyranitar, Scizor, Heatran, Infernape, and Gyarados can also effectively beat Weavile. However, Tyranitar and Heatran need to watch out for Brick Break, and all the others should also be wary of Counter.

    Weavile dislikes any lead that he cannot 2HKO, as then they will most likely kill Weavile before it can kill them. Scizor gets particular mention as he can OHKO Weavile with his powerful Bullet Punch and sports resistances to both of Weavile's STAB attacks. Scarfed pokemon can also surprise Weavile and take him out as he confidently stays in, and should be taken into account.
    --------------------------------------------------


    That's it. Like I said, if this is the wrong place please let me know.

    Thanks, LR.
  3. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
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    I like this LR. Although to be honest I'd like to ask if you can summarize it a little bit. The Counters section is fine and I like the detail of the in-depth; however, I'd like you to attempt to shorten it into either one to three paragraphs if you can. Four maybe at the max.
  4. Legacy Raider

    Legacy Raider
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    Thanks Col M. I've taken out bits that I found to be slightly irrelevant (such as the bit on Pursuit and the list of Ice and Dark weak common leads). I've also compressed it and removed a lot of the extraneous detail.
  5. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight Well-shuffled and flush
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    I know this is going to be like the third post pimping this lead, but it provides a good example of an anti-lead for discussion purposes. E.g. should we post the Anti-Lead set with the analysis, should we just talk in general, and should we include "Lightning Speed" if it really only applies to a Scarf set.

    Blaziken
    [​IMG]

    Classification:
    - Anti-Lead

    In-Depth Discussion:
    Blaziken is notable as an anti-lead for several reasons: It has High attack and Special Attack, mediocre speed, priority attacks, and excellent STABs. Essentially it will deal heavy damage to most other lead pokemon, whose frailty Blaziken can exploit. It's threat level is enough to cause some opponents to forego their planned strategy and try and score a quick knockout. This is Blaziken's Anti-SR Lead set:

    [SET]
    name: Anti-SR Lead
    move 1: Fire Blast
    move 2: Vacuum Wave
    move 3: Hidden Power [Grass]
    move 4: Superpower
    item: Focus Sash
    nature: Rash
    evs: 32 Atk / 252 SpA / 224 Sp

    With the exception of Fire Blast (and possibly new Superpower sets), these are attacks that usually don't make the cut on other standard Blaziken sets. The essential function of the set is to limit the usefullness of current SR leads. Current SR leads usually use two attacks: one to set up rocks, the other to Explode, attack normally, or use another support move. Vs. Faster leads this set is designed to give a one-two punch with a STAB Move + Vacuum Wave that limits them to their initial attack. Slower bulky leads will generally be 2HKOd (OHKO'd if type weak) by the most powerful relevant attack (Fire Blast most of the time, HP Grass for Swampert, Superpower for TTar etc).

    Counters:
    The set is specialized towards weakening SR leads, so non-SR leads should act as if they are facing a regular Blaziken. Starmie and Salamence do not got dropped into Vacuum Wave KO range by any other attack, Shaymin-S and Yanmega can gamble with Air Slash. Hippowdon can KO it with Earthquake + SS damage, but will eat a Fire Blast in the process.
  6. RBG

    RBG It feels like a perfect night to dress up like hipsters
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    Actually, the plan was to use about 20 or so of the most common leads. If we just did those that people watned to or are good, but unused, would clutter up the article a bit.

    And we don't want to focus on individual movesets.
  7. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight Well-shuffled and flush
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    Mostly I just wanted to focus on form for an Anti-Lead, since generally an anti-lead counters some specific other kind of lead. For example, Taunt leads beat SR leads generally speaking, but don't do so well against TrickScarf leads, or a faster non TrickScarf lead.

    For instance I was running a Scarf Trick Claydol lead that was designed to beat Gengar. Also serves as an SR lead. But of course, to pull that off it basically as to have 3 moves already decided, so a lot of the Anti-Lead sets are drastically different than standard ones. Otherwise it's tough to grasp an "Anti-Lead" since by definition it is an unorthodox solution to a "Standard Lead."
  8. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
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    The goal of this analysis isn't to add everything that can possibly lead. It interprets the BEST leads that are commonly used (top 30 is the maximum for now but will probably be lowered). Until the October statistics are released some of these Pokemon as leads are unkown and are in jeopordy of losing a place in the article. "BL" leads might be an exception; those that jump here and there every month. Until then we should focus on leads that we know will have a great chance of being a top lead next month. Sorry Deck Knight.

    I'd also like to add this into the prologue of the article. Opinions?
    To also announce once I've gotten my other two Lead articles done we'll be using this topic for the "rough draft" to give an example on how it will be written as well as a starting point without resorting to start a new topic right away.
  9. MetaNite

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    Azelf

    (insert Platinum sprite here)

    Classification:

    - Anti-Lead
    - Suicide Lead

    In-Depth Discussion:

    Azelf is one of those floating Psychics, and is the best offensively. It comes packed with offensive diversity, in addition to one great support move: Stealth Rock.

    As a Suicide Lead, it can easily pull of a quick Stealth Rock with it's above average speed and a Focus Sash intact. In addition, it has great moves like Explosion and Fire Blast to work with when you're done. Explosion gets rid of most things (read: not Gengar, or steel/rock types), and Fire Blast is for the ever common Bronzong, Metagross and Scizor.

    After awhile, the Azelf lead became a staple. That is when people probably started thinking of how to create an Azelf that'll "trick" the foe into thinking you're just another Suicide Lead, and pull off a kill. Trick is in quotations because of the Platinum addition that makes Azelf a great Anti-lead, to stop even bulky leads like Hippodown and Bronzong. With 125 attack stats, and great Speed Azelf becomes surprisingly effective with a Choice item. U-Turn is a prime move for being able to scout the foe, and being used in conjunction with ScarfTrio can net awesome kills: Watch as they switch out their Forretress, Bronzong, or Scizor and bring in ScarfTran, Tyranitar, or even ScarfDoom. By U-Turning you can bring in Dugtrio for the KO on all of them.

    In conclusion, Azelf is a great and versatile lead that should be considered whenever building a team.

    Counters:

    Anti-lead Weavile isn't really a "counter", but can easily finish off suicide lead Azelf with Fake Out and Night Slash. They must be wary of ScarfZelf, as U-turn and Fire Blast does loads of damage to it though. Aerodactyl can also outspeed, and Taunt Azelf before it can set up rocks. Leading Tyranitar also makes a could way to stop Azelf. While it may set up Stealth Rocks, you'll break its Sash and if it U-Turns (though you'll be dealt SE damage) you can Pursuit it for the OHKO.

    Few things can actually counter the anti-lead without taking a chunk from U-turn, however the best way to beat it is to out-predict.
  10. Legacy Raider

    Legacy Raider
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    Great analysis MetaNite, but I really think you should add Tyranitar to its counters section. There is not a single attack that Azelf possesses (bar Explosion) that can kill TTar, while it can easily pick it off using either Crunch or Pursuit. The reason it makes such a good counter is because of Sandstream messing up the Focus Sash.

    EDIT: http://archives.bulbagarden.net/w/upload/0/0d/Spr_4p_482.png
    That's a link to the Plat Azelf sprite. I have this handy cos I'm writing a warstory with Azelf in it atm. It'll be up in Stark in about an hour and a bit.
  11. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
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    Not sure if we're using Sprites yet because I'm unsure if we can with articles (I could be wrong).

    Looks good MetaNite. I leik.

    Ones that I will work personally (in other words don't touch)

    - Deoxys-S (if allowed)
    - Gengar
    - Tyranitar
    - Machamp

    Possibly others. We shall see once October statistics roll in (as well as the voting of DX-S).
  12. Legacy Raider

    Legacy Raider
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    Can I just pop in to say that I think I'll be able to write quite a good Porygon2 analysis (if I am allowed - not top 20 most common leads yet still extremely effective). I have done extensive testing with it since the start of the Garchomp testing and I think I can do a pretty good job.

    LR.
  13. MetaNite

    MetaNite
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    Thank you! Gave me a nice boost in confindence ^_^

    Porygon2 is #38, yet I think it deserves a mention. Perhaps we don't do any of the more "minor" leads until the next statistics in Nov. with Platinum out. Minor meaning the things that don't really do anything as a lead, but are just sort of there... such as ScarfTran, and random DD Mences.

    I may do Yanmega, that okay?
  14. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
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    I'll let you claim Pory2 but it won't be added in (for now). You can keep it on standby since it is a "limbo" lead.

    I'll let you do Yanmega but let's not make this a "claiming" thread. Me and RB Golbat will be doing a lot of the contributing and allowing a member to do one or two is fine. What I'm trying to say is don't go over the edge with these.
  15. MetaNite

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    I understand, you'd probably do a better job anyway.

    Yanmega


    Classification:

    - Lightning-Speed Lead
    - Anti-Lead

    In-Depth Discussion:

    Yanmega is a rather interesting Pokemon. It has two rather unique abilities, and just the right Special Attack to pull it off in OU. Being a Bug/Flying Pokemon, Yanmega finds it difficult to switch in without losing 1/2 its Hit Points. This makes it perfect for a lead.

    This ancient bug only needs one set up move, and that's Protect. That allows it to get in a Speed Boost, making it faster than just about anything. Two pretty much standards are Bug Buzz, and Air Slash for great STAB. Hidden Power can be added to take care of Heatran and Magnezone with HP Ground, or the OU dragons with HP Ice. As a lead, it works well against unprepared teams.

    Yanmega has one more trick, and that's Hypnosis. Though it's accuracy has been reduced back to 60, it's still a good move to shut down any would be counter. Its other ability, Tinted Lens is great but better used on a late game sweeper set.

    Counters:

    Yanmega can be hard to counter with Hypnosis and it's speed increasing each turn. It can be beaten as a lead against anti-lead Weavile, and can't stop most Suicide Leads from getting up their rocks. It'll have trouble against anything with a Focus Sash, yet having one of its own solves this problem.

    Heatran and Magnezone work great against those that lack Hidden Power Ground, and Zapdos works well against those without Hidden Power Ice.

    -----------
    Last contribution here, thanks for the oppurtunity to contribute.
  16. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
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    Lightning-Speed Lead
    Anti-Lead

    Those would describe Yanmega.

    Looks fine. I don't care if some people contribute but I just don't want people claiming for certain Pokemon and then two weeks later have nothing. I'll discuss RB Golbat about making peer "contributions" per say.
  17. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
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    The top 30 leads have been added and now we can officially start on this project thanks to Doug.
  18. RBG

    RBG It feels like a perfect night to dress up like hipsters
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    Ones that have been written:

    Azelf
    Tyranitar
    Bronzong
    Metagross
    Gengar
    Zapdos
    Infernape
    Scizor
    Aerodactyl
    Hippowdon
    Salamence
    Gyarados
    Ninjask <--- Working on
    Yanmega
    Shaymin-S
    Weavile
    Roserade
    Heatran
    Machamp <--- Working on
    Swampert
    Crobat
    Abamosnow
    Jirachi
    Ambipom
    Togekiss
    Jolteon
    Forretress
    Smeargle <--- Working on
    Porygon2 <--- Working on
    Electrode
  19. Legacy Raider

    Legacy Raider
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    I've edited the Weavile one to remove Deoxys.

    I should have the Porygon2 one done soon.
  20. RBG

    RBG It feels like a perfect night to dress up like hipsters
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    That was just a reference for me and Colonel M, we plan on doing the rest
  21. Legacy Raider

    Legacy Raider
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    I thought I was going to do the Porygon2 one? I've been testing it on ladder all week...
  22. RBG

    RBG It feels like a perfect night to dress up like hipsters
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    Ok, id dint read back, you can do P2
  23. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
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    Yeah, I'll allow him to do Pory2 but no one else can reserve (or do, rather) any other analysis unless you have my and RBG's permission. And trust me, I'm not going to hand these out to "just anyone" or hand it out like candy either.

    Azelf
    Tyranitar <- Colonel M
    Bronzong
    Metagross <- Colonel M
    Gengar <- Colonel M
    Zapdos <- Colonel M
    Infernape
    Scizor <- Colonel M
    Aerodactyl <- Colonel M
    Hippowdon
    Salamence
    Gyarados
    Ninjask <--- RB Golbat
    Yanmega
    Shaymin-S
    Weavile
    Roserade
    Heatran
    Machamp <--- RB Golbat
    Swampert
    Crobat <- Colonel M
    Abamosnow
    Jirachi
    Ambipom
    Togekiss
    Jolteon <- Colonel M
    Forretress
    Smeargle <--- RB Golbat
    Porygon2 <--- Legacy Raider
    Electrode
    __________________

    RB Golbat, PM me if you'd like to do any others. I'll update this to the OP.
  24. Legacy Raider

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    Porygon2
    [​IMG]

    Classification

    - Anti-Lead
    - Bulky Lead

    In-Depth Analysis

    Porygon2 distinguishes itself from most other pokemon with its Trace ability. Although Trace is usually used to get a free switch in for Porygon2, it also has merit in countering many common leads. Salamence and Gyarados are easily taken out with an Ice Beam / Discharge respectively, and after they have had their own Intimidate used against them they can do very little to Porygon2. For example, a Life Orb Gyarados will only manage a meagre 30% on Porygon2 with Waterfall, while Salamence's Outrage does a maximum of 48%. Heatran and Jolteon are unable to hit Porygon2 with their primary STAB attacks once Porygon2 has traced their Flash Fire/ Volt Absorb, meaning they are almost always forced to switch. Porygon2 can also keep pace with Ninjask and Yanmega and force them out with Ice Beam, retaining the Speed Boost ability and having an advantage over the next switch in.

    Another factor that makes Porygon2 a great lead is Magic Coat. This move reflects back many non-damaging moves, and allows Porygon2 to use the opponent's moves against them. Sleep leads such as Gengar, Roserade, Yanmega, Crobat, Smeargle and Uxie are rendered ineffective when their attacks are used to put them to sleep. It also reflects trapping moves such as Mean Look and Spider Web back at the opponent, allowing Porygon2 to foil many Baton Pass and Perish Trapping leads.

    Porygon2 also use its own status moves effectively in addition to reflecting the opponent's back at them. Thunder Wave ruins the effectiveness of Lighning Speed leads such as Aerodactyl, Weavile and Crobat, while Toxic severely limits the lifespan of bulky leads such as Swampert and Hippowdon. Although status will bother Porygon2, it is not unduly worried since it can always come in on a Natural Cure pokemon later on in the game. However, with good prediction and Magic Coat, you should never have to worry about status.

    With BoltBeam coverage, Porygon2 can hit 11 out of the 28 top leads super effectively. While this may not seem like much, it becomes a lot more significant when one considers that many opposing leads will be unable to 2HKO the defensive cyberduck back, and that Porygon2 can use Recover to heal half its health in a single turn.

    Counters

    Although Porygon2 fairs decently against the majority of opposing leads because of its inherent bulk, it has no way of stopping Stealth Rock from going up since Magic Coat cannot reflect it. Also, how well Porygon2 fairs as a lead depends a lot on how it is EVed. If it is physically orientated, Roserade Leaf Storms, Shaymin Seed Flares and Zapdos Thunderbolts start to hurt. If it is specially biased then the Salamence it is meant to counter can 2HKO it with Life Orb Outrage. Porygon2 is very much a jack-of-all-trades but it cannot do everything at once.

    Infernape can do a lot of damage to Porygon2 with its STAB Close Combats, while there is not much Porygon2 can do in return. Also, Porygon2 is very bulky but has few resistances, so can be overcome by beatdown leads such as Choice Band Tyranitar and the numerous Explosion leads.

    -------------------------

    As a side note, to the person who is doing the lead Machamp analysis, I've got some stuff on an Encore set which may or may not help.

    Thanks for letting me write up Porygon2.

    LR.
  25. RBG

    RBG It feels like a perfect night to dress up like hipsters
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    Sorry, but i've been using Roserade and plan on doing it. Colonel_M and I should be able to do the rest.

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