DPPt Lead Discussion Topic

#51
Azelf can fall under Weather leads, and Suicide leads.

This is the weather Azelf I am currently using on my VERY sucessful rain dance team:


Azelf@Damp Rock
Naive Nature
252 HP/ 252 Speed/ 6 Attack
~ Rain Dance
~ Explosion
~ Stealth Rock
~ U-Turn/Psychic/Water Pulse

I read somewhere that Azelf learns Water Pulse ?_? . Please correct me if I'm wrong. I love this lead, because it is bulky enough to take a Fire Blast from Infernape (with no rain iirc) and can take a Overheats under the rain. Psychic is there for a STAB filler, if you don't like U-Turn/Water Pulse to be your only reliable form of attacking. I haven't run any damage calcs on Water Pulse under the rain yet so yeah. U-Turn is alright, but it's all personal preference really. I think the EV's need work if Water Pulse or Psychic are used. Meaning you would need to sacrafice some HP EVs if you want to pack a punch. Overall I think this is a great weather Azelf.
 
#52
Jirachi


Classification:

- Anti-Lead
- Lightning-Speed Lead
- Bulky Lead

In-Depth Description:

Because of its well-rounded stats and vast movepool, Jirachi is easily one of the most diverse and unpredictable leads around. In addition to its versatility, it also has a fantastic typing with several useful resistances. As such, it’s often quite difficult to tell just what kind of Jirachi is being used until it makes a move. However, most Jirachi leads have one thing in common, which is Stealth Rock.

One of the more common incarnations of Jirachi leads is the scarfer. It can take advantage of its amazing Speed to lay down Stealth Rock before any Taunt and later outspeed and attempt to flinch foes with the annoying 60% flinch rate of Serene Grace Iron Head. It also can act as an anti-lead with Trick, which cripples opposing leads and turns them into setup fodder for other Pokemon. This is arguably one of the best switches into Salamence later on, resisting Dragon and hitting it with Ice Punch.

Some leading Jirachis are built slower and bulkier than others to take advantage of the key resists offered to it by its Steel/Psychic. While outspeeding these bulkier Jirachis is generally easy, they will often take advantage of paralysis-inducing moves like Thunder Wave and Body Slam, then beating out the crippled Pokemon with flinch. These Jirachis are also good candidates for field effect starters such as Rain Dance and Trick Room. They can also use U-Turn to take a hit for a switch-in sweeper on the team.

These aren't the only ways to go with Jirachi, either. Its versatility ensures that just about any set is viable. From support to offense and from physical to special, Jirachi can be used to get the upperhand early on in the game using a variety of techniques.

Counters:

In the traditional sense, countering a Jirachi lead is nothing short of impossible because there is no standard set, and a counter to one set may easily be mincemeat to another. The Choice Scarf lead is especially dangerous because a counter can be beaten by constant flinching. However, there are many Pokemon that can be a pain for it to deal with regardless.

Jirachi is a Pokemon that's very vulnerable to trapping. Magnezone is a huge threat to any Jirachi without the ability to escape with U-Turn, either because it's locked into another move or because it isn't on the set in question, or attack it with Fire Punch. It'll easily trap it and proceed to get up a sub and kill it with Thunderbolt. In the same vein, Dugtrio can trap and beat down Jirachi with Earthquake, and it's also faster than all non-Scarf variants.

Infernape and Heatran leads are a big problem for Jirachi, who will find itself not doing that much damage to them and being killed by their STAB Fire moves. Both should be somewhat wary of paralysis, though.

Leading Jirachi does poorly against Baton Pass leads. It's essentially setup fodder for both Ninjask and Lopunny, however Ninjask has to be careful to avoid Trick from Scarf Jirachi.

---

I would like to thank you for allowing me to write this, CM.
 
#53
To add to Yanmega (since I use him as a lead):

Counters also include mostly any Special Wall (Blissey, Vaporeon, Snorlax, Milotic, perhaps Dusknoir). Yanmega without Hypnosis struggles against most of those. Togekiss stops it too.
 
#54
I understand, you'd probably do a better job anyway.

Yanmega


Classification:

- Lightning-Speed Lead
- Anti-Lead

In-Depth Discussion:

Yanmega is a rather interesting Pokemon. It has two rather unique abilities, and just the right Special Attack to pull it off in OU. Being a Bug/Flying Pokemon, Yanmega finds it difficult to switch in without losing 1/2 its Hit Points. This makes it perfect for a lead.

This ancient bug only needs one set up move, and that's Protect. That allows it to get in a Speed Boost, making it faster than just about anything. Two pretty much standards are Bug Buzz, and Air Slash for great STAB. Hidden Power can be added to take care of Heatran and Magnezone with HP Ground, or the OU dragons with HP Ice. As a lead, it works well against unprepared teams.

Yanmega has one more trick, and that's Hypnosis. Though it's accuracy has been reduced back to 60, it's still a good move to shut down any would be counter. Its other ability, Tinted Lens is great but better used on a late game sweeper set.

Counters:

Yanmega can be hard to counter with Hypnosis and it's speed increasing each turn. It can be beaten as a lead against anti-lead Weavile, and can't stop most Suicide Leads from getting up their rocks. It'll have trouble against anything with a Focus Sash, yet having one of its own solves this problem.

Heatran and Magnezone work great against those that lack Hidden Power Ground, and Zapdos works well against those without Hidden Power Ice.
I believe I have a lot to add since I've been using Yanmega consistently as a lead for the last 5 or so months. I've used it both pre and post platinum, so here are my comments.

Yanmega needs to have a special mention of Focus Sash. Focus Sash is more tactically useful on Yanmega than any other pokemon really. Also a mention about Protect and Focus Sash together (which is by no means a bad idea), as Protect is really not for use in the early game. It's best used late-game.

For classification, I believe Yanmega probably has one of the most unique niches. I would classify it as a "Scouter." And by scout I don't mean U-turner. What I mean is that I find Yanmega to be useful as a lead because its offensive pressure really lets you determine what kind of team you are facing. With Focus Sash, its pretty much going to beat most leads one on one and it can force quite a bit of switches early on. If you see things like Blissey and defensive Zapdos switching in, you are facing a slower, bulkier team. If you see things like Gyarados, Salamence, and Scarf Heatran switching in, you know that you are facing a hyper-offensive team, which is something Yanmega is excellent at dismantling. No other lead I found can give you such a great insight into your opponent on the opening turns.

Erhm, Yanmega doesn't lose to Fake Out + Ice Shard Weavile. It Protects, then Bug Buzz OHKOs easily. Even if it doesn't Protect, Fake Out + Ice Shard doesn't KO anyway.

Also, I think in general we need to tone down the emphasis on leads a bit. Some pokemon like Yanmega are labeled entirely as a lead and nothing else for the team which is a bad statement. You don't want to pick a "lead." You want a pokemon that can contribute to the team AND lead.
 
#55
I believe I have a lot to add since I've been using Yanmega consistently as a lead for the last 5 or so months. I've used it both pre and post platinum, so here are my comments.

Yanmega needs to have a special mention of Focus Sash. Focus Sash is more tactically useful on Yanmega than any other pokemon really. Also a mention about Protect and Focus Sash together (which is by no means a bad idea), as Protect is really not for use in the early game. It's best used late-game.

For classification, I believe Yanmega probably has one of the most unique niches. I would classify it as a "Scouter." And by scout I don't mean U-turner. What I mean is that I find Yanmega to be useful as a lead because its offensive pressure really lets you determine what kind of team you are facing. With Focus Sash, its pretty much going to beat most leads one on one and it can force quite a bit of switches early on. If you see things like Blissey and defensive Zapdos switching in, you are facing a slower, bulkier team. If you see things like Gyarados, Salamence, and Scarf Heatran switching in, you know that you are facing a hyper-offensive team, which is something Yanmega is excellent at dismantling. No other lead I found can give you such a great insight into your opponent on the opening turns.

Erhm, Yanmega doesn't lose to Fake Out + Ice Shard Weavile. It Protects, then Bug Buzz OHKOs easily. Even if it doesn't Protect, Fake Out + Ice Shard doesn't KO anyway.

Also, I think in general we need to tone down the emphasis on leads a bit. Some pokemon like Yanmega are labeled entirely as a lead and nothing else for the team which is a bad statement. You don't want to pick a "lead." You want a pokemon that can contribute to the team AND lead.
Sounds good. I think you may have convinced me to switch my Yanmega's Expert Belt to a Focus Sash.
 

Legacy Raider

sharpening his claws, slowly
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#56
Sorry, but is this thread still alive? It doesn't seem to have been updated with any new lead analyses. I'm still willing to give a hand writing them if need be.

LR.
 

RBG

Trying to get my Smods back D:
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#57
Colonel_M are working on them offline before posting them here. Trust me, they are being worked on.
 

Caelum

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#58
I'm sure CM is working on it. Anyway, I take issue with this description of anti-leads

What falls into this category?
== There are many Pokemon that can fall in here. These Pokemon have niche movesets or even regular movesets that set them apart to being a great lead. Whether it's the use of Lum Berry, Trick, or Hypnosis, any of these type of Pokemon cause trouble against their opponent. They could also carry many other moves such as Brick Break, Taunt, a priority move, U-Turn, or Pursuit.
Isn't an anti-lead more something that is used to adapt to the popular leads of the time? For example, anti-leads can fall out of style so it's more then just a great lead. You should emphasize how anti-leads revolve around what is popular at the time and can fall in and out of style.

Edit: An example, look at the anti-lead Breloom set (http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/breloom). It's actually horribly out of date and wouldn't function that well as an anti-lead in todays metagame (I'm considering removing it now actually); it was good at one point but as the metagame evolved it lost it's use. That's a bit what I meant.
 

Colonel M

OHO!
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Moderator
#60
Yeah it will be expanded upon Caelum. It was a short definition, but I'm expanding it further to describe how they adapt over time. As for everything else: I'm working on it. Right now, I might be writing an actual FAQ for Shining Force II, and on top of that I'm helping with Platinum updates (well kind of). Don't worry guys, I'm hoping this can be done by February.

BTW Caelum, remove that set. Too out of date IMO. =D

Everything that has been submitted by everyone else: if they are somewhat out-of-date, or if they lack info that I would like to add, I will first PM you about it and, if I have your permission, add the statements. If you're regularly inactive though, I will do it on my own. Examples are like Yanmega which do need more of an explaination of Focus Sash and such.
 
#61
New Lead Section

- Versatile Lead
What falls into this category?
== Any pokemon that can fufill many roles as a lead. These leads can play as any combonation of the following:Anti-Lead, Dual Screener, Suicide, Bulky, or Baton pass lead. Most of these kind of leads have extremely wide movepools and are very unpredictable as a lead. These leads tend to use niche moves such as Fling and Torment. Most of these leads range from OU to UU, even though they are meant to be used in OU.

Example of a Versatile Lead:
Bronzong, Clefable, Gengar, Jirachi, Celebi.

This is a new type of lead i found to be common and it also gives Bronzong a more "tight fit" into a specific type of lead.
 

Alice

The worst taste in music
#62
Leading Tyranitar also makes a could way to stop Azelf. While it may set up Stealth Rocks, you'll break its Sash and if it U-Turns (though you'll be dealt SE damage) you can Pursuit it for the OHKO.

Few things can actually counter the anti-lead without taking a chunk from U-turn, however the best way to beat it is to out-predict.
In fact, pursuiting an u-turning azelf avoids any damage from u-turn, since pursuit comes first with 80bp (at least on shoddy)

so the best counter for the anti-lead/scarfer (and even for the suicide, since it's only setting up the rocks) is a T-Tar w/pursuit.
 
#63
- Versatile Lead
What falls into this category?
== Any pokemon that can fufill many roles as a lead. These leads can play as any combonation of the following:Anti-Lead, Dual Screener, Suicide, Bulky, or Baton pass lead. Most of these kind of leads have extremely wide movepools and are very unpredictable as a lead. These leads tend to use niche moves such as Fling and Torment. Most of these leads range from OU to UU, even though they are meant to be used in OU.

Example of a Versatile Lead:
Bronzong, Clefable, Gengar, Jirachi, Celebi.

This is a new type of lead i found to be common and it also gives Bronzong a more "tight fit" into a specific type of lead.
Smeargle can be added too because of his all-knowing learning skills.
 
#64
Mamoswine has become a popular lead with the endeavour set it is somewhat of an anti lead able to take on tran metagross even swampert and comeout on top .The only thing that really walls it is a defensive rotom aprt from revenge killers.