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Discussion in 'OverUsed' started by FastFlygon, Oct 14, 2013.
Wait, but wasn't this changed in Gen 6?
This guys best possible outcome is being a Spdef wall in RU. Goodra in all ways surpasses him even though he doesnt get Hydropump (Muddy Water instead) and lacks STAB SludgeBomb. The Poison typing while good now leaves him open to EQ and Psyshock both of which are supereffective and get around his high spdef. The best defensive set I can think of is following (an even this i still say wont make him UU):
Careful/Calm (i always forget which is which) 252spded 252hp 4spatt
Essentially this a great wallish set for a lowtier dragon. SludgeBomb needs no explanation but here: hits fairies, Grasstypes and chance to poison. Scald with 30% chance to burn helps you survive EQ though Psyshock will still hurt like hell. Toxic is to combat other walls and D-tail is to phase stuff thatd try to setup on you. If you are really ambitious and daring you can run Venoshock and Toxic but not really the optimal option
It says it doesnt work on the recent breeding topic http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/breeding-perfect-pokemon-in-pokemon-x-y.3490432/#post-4906968
Reikai said this in the topic
If you have a Hidden Ability(HA) Male with a Ditto, it passes on the HA.
If you have a HA Female with a Ditto it passes on HA
If you have a HA Female with Normal male it passes on HA.
if you have a HA Male with Normal Female it DOES NOT pass on HA.
Always found venoshock + toxic a meh option on anything, and only viable on a possible late game sweeper with toxic spikes support throughout the game and even then it'd meh... I'm hoping he becomes UU but I also doubt it. Especially with some OU pokes of last gen probably moving down to UU and vice versa. Only time will tell
Scald to burn opponents, combined with max HP and SpDef, would give a potentially exceptional bulky tank, especially combined with entry hazards and Dragon Tail phazing.
Well, mostly specially bulky.
Problem is, abilities appear useless. And the speed is low.
A dragon/poison mon without a fire move, WHY GAMEFREAK WHYYYY
Even if Dragalge doesn't get Adaptability (and though it looks like it doesn't, surely it ought to have a hidden ability of SOME sort?) it will be better than some of you are giving it credit for. Goodra definitely has better stats, but Dragalge's typing is much better for a defensive Pokemon and it has actual support moves with which to support its team. Unless UU ends up radically different, which I highly doubt, fighting-types are still going to be very strong and Dragalge is an excellent Heracross check, takes HJK much better than Goodra (though neither Pokemon handles Mienshao particularly well), handles Roserade much better because it has a 4x Grass Resistance and Poison resistance, can beat the admittedly uncommon Arcanine much easier because it resists Close Combat, potentially can take fairies on much more easily since it not only has a super effective STAB but also isn't weak to their moves, takes Umbreon and Sableye on much more easily since it doesn't give a shit about Foul Play (Possible 7HKO on 252 HP -ve attack Dragalge), is much less vulnerable to U-turn exploitation and can't be toxiced, which gives it great longevity. That's a pretty big list of things it can do better than Goodra, mostly because of that stellar Poison typing; Poison was already one of the best defensive types in the game - and this was exploited by Pokemon like Nidoqueen and Tentacruel to great effect - but now it gained a topical resistance and lost some of its offensive worthlessness it's only gotten better.
That's not to say Goodra won't be good, I look forward to playing with a tank set should it drop to UU - but it's really more of a tank where Dragalge is perhaps more of a defensive Pokemon (assuming, again, the whole adaptability thing is a hoax or npc bs) with more resistances to use to its advantage.
Hence the set i just posted. But considering what is currently in UU Dragalge wouldnt make the cut because there are tons of heavy hitters there whod still laugh of this pokemon. However in RU he would be a monster of a wall who doesnt really have much to fear past Druddigons Outrage, Rhyhorns EQ, and Mesprits rarely used Psyshock (supereffective wise). Generally however RU is full of physical attacking pokes with massive dmg output like Banded Escavalier, SD/BulkUp Gallade, Reckless Hitmonlee, etc and with burn only being 30% on Scald it can still get taken down.
Exactly!A lot of people are attacking Dragalge, and making unfair comparisons to Goodra just because they are both Spc Wall dragons. Both do their own thing. I really like Dragalge myself. Great defences and resistances.
And people keep forgetting Toxic Spikes! It works very well with him! include Dragon tail for phasing, and Maybe Veno Shock for that huge damage. Even without that, Poison/Dragon/Water hits everything for neutral except the penguin and ferroseed. Throw up toxic spikes, then either attack with Sludge wave/Sludge Bomb/VenoShock, Draco Meteor/Dragon Pulse/Dragon Tail, and Surf, and you are good. Heck, replace Toxic Spikes with T-bolt or focus blast for even more coverage if you want.
Dragalge is not making it to UU sorry. Between massive physical attackers like Mienshao, Rhyperion, Flygon, and Weavile who each hit it on a physical side this guy dont make it (not to mention each of these guys are pretty abundant). I could admit to going so far as to say this guy could be BL2 because in RU he'd easy wall things. Still these are the factors which to me hurt Dragalge's upper tier status:
-abilities are the same in different fashion and can both be accomplished through SludgeBomb or Toxic
-in comparison to Goodra (stats) it only beats it in defense and 70 vs 90 is not exactly a big difference when you only have base 65 hp
-the only current offensive set you can run is either Specs or sub/3attacks
-it is 2x weak to Ice, Ground, Psychic, and Dragon each of which is in the UU tier
If you want to compare it to Goodra then you have to recognize that:
-they can each learn the same Special attacks that could possibly be used between the two of them
-Goodra has a niche spot in Drizzle or manual rain because of Hydration
-Goodra has 1 less weakness/Dragalge is weak to Earthquake probably one of the most used attacks
-Goodra cannot be walled by Steel-types like Dragalge (Goodra gets Flamethrower and EQ [anyone 1-up to Dragalge])
I truly don't mean to assault this pokemon at all because I was very excited for it but it proved to be a slight disappointment. As I said before this guy has great promise as a wall in RU but up in UU it would just get countered by things like Empoleon, Bronzong, and Scrafty or die to a Krookodile, SubBisharp, or FLygon
Dragalge gets focus blast, so it is no more walled by steel-types than Goodra with flamethrower/EQ ignoring Klefki (granted, it is focus-miss).
I love Goodra, and somewhat agree with your statements, but I've got to get the facts straight.
Except offensive or defensive Dragalge wouldnt normally run Focus Miss. since its so slow a sub/3 attacks set would be better over a monoattacking. in addition Hydropump would be a better choice over Focus Miss
No it wouldn't. Hydro Pump doesn't hit anything relevant aside from like Gligar and even then Draco Meteor is killing it after SR if Hydro Pump is killing it. After the nerf you're just flat-out better off using Focus Blast - and given that specs Focus Blast is a 2HKO on Bronzong it's unlikely to struggle with Klefki either. You're seriously underestimating how great Poison typing is for a bulky mon, those extra resistances make all the difference in a fighting-dominated metagtame. Dragalge easily deals with Heracross not locked into/using Earthquake while Goodra is wrecked by both Close Combat and Megahorn. If Heracross has a moxie boost, Goodra falls easily while Dragalge can easily take a hit and counterattack, possibly turning the game around if Heracross is weakened or Dragalge is using an offensive set. Even being a Heracross check is a pretty big selling point for any Pokemon.
Additionally, Dragalge will always beat Mienshao 1v1, where Goodra is obliterated. The difference between beating the best Pokemon in UU 1v1 and losing horribly to it is a pretty big deal. I don't think Goodra and Dragalge are really competing, as a mixed tank Goodra is much better and as a defensive mon Dragalge is quite a bit better. They aren't comparable.
Ran some numbers and I can see what you are saying against Heracross here. I'm still sticking to BL2 for Dragalge because just too many things carry Earthquake that can OKHO in UU. If it got Adaptability I'd easily say an offensive set would do very well. And I agree that its uncomparable with Goodra but since everyone makes the comment of one over the other its just better to show both numbers here. And yet i still think Goodra could get the OU spot over this guy cause Hydration and being a harder hitter.
252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragalge: 382-450 (114.37 - 134.73%) -- guaranteed OHKO / 252 Atk Heracross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def (custom): 232-274 (69.46 - 82.03%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragalge: 171-201 (51.19 - 60.17%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO / 252 Atk Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def (custom): 104-123 (31.13 - 36.82%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragalge: 171-201 (51.19 - 60.17%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO / 252 Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def (custom): 104-123 (31.13 - 36.82%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 233-275 (60.67 - 71.61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO / 252 Atk Heracross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def (custom): 142-168 (36.97 - 43.75%) -- 99.83% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 420-495 (109.37 - 128.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO / Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def (custom): 255-301 (66.4 - 78.38%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 420-495 (109.37 - 128.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO / 252 Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def (custom): 255-301 (66.4 - 78.38%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Also Specs FocusBlast from modest Dragalge is only slightly more powerful than HydroPump (misses not withstanding)
I'll never understand the logic of "mon uses super-effective move on a pokemon's weaker stat and 2HKO's so obviously it sucks." Uh, switch out?
It should be fairly obvious that Dragalge's role is not blocking physical attackers. But with resistances to the Water / Fire / Electric / Grass / Poison / Bug / Fighting, and huge SpD to take neutral special attacks, it will function as a bulky tank. Can it take a stray physical move on its decent physical bulk? You bet it can.
Dragalge can check Heracross in a pinch, because it resists it's STABs, and spamming a locked unSTAB ground move is easy to exploit.
I'd wager that Drag's best offensive set will be Draco / Sludge Bomb / Hydro Pump / Focus Blast. It gets unresisted coverage and hits 10 types super effectively.
As for Goodra vs Dragalge, I see them as interchangeable options depending on whether you need more power or additional resists here and there. Latias is Goodra's main competition, IMO.
Dragalge would be waaaay better if it had Levitate, Earthquake just hits it too hard. Its still a unique pokemon for the most part and absorbs toxic spikes. I see it ending up in RU or possibly UU. A specs set sounds pretty cool though, especially since Dragalge has a pretty nice movepool.
Imo rain is nerfed too much for Hydration to be really viable anymore. I could still be wrong but still. Goodra will make UU imo but this isn't the Goodra topic, its the Dragalge topic lol.
Truer words were never said
Can anyone provide a source for adaptation Dragalge? I have been looking everywhere but have yet to find concrete proof.
I'd let go of that hope for now; someone randomly posted saying that "my friend says Drag has adaptability." There was no picture, no source, nothing. It's hidden ability is basically still unknown.
That is what I figured but even the data on irc lists adaptability. The rumor is moving faster than rapid spin greninja.
Rapid Spin greninja ahhh memories
So far neither Clauncher, Clawitzer, Skrelp or Dragalge are listed in reasonably reliable sites(or any site except for rumors on forums like here), so I doubt that.
Mienshao isn't getting past Dragalge any time soon unless it runs SD + Stone Edge or something and even then it can't take a hit to save its life. The others check it I guess, although Rhyperior could get hit with a Water attack easily.
For the main point of this post: you're judging a sixth generation Pokemon in a fifth generation tier. For all we know, Dragalge and all four of these Pokemon could never share a tier together.
Keldeo has Justified. Your argument is invalid. Poison Touch is cool for getting rid of a Latios on the switch with Dragon Tail and possibly poisoning it in the process though.
You don't need to run offense with everything.
You're still judging a new Pokemon by old standards, but anyway, Dragalge also comes with a sweet seven resistances (Grass, Fire, Water, Electric, Fighting, Bug, and Poison), and Dragalge has more than enough bulk to shrug off weaker Special hits and can even tank a few huge ones - with a specially defensive spread, this thing can survive an Ice Beam from Modest Kyurem.
Goodra and Dragalge are similar, sure, but they aren't similar enough to just blindly compare them in this way. Dragalge has a much better typing (immune to Poison regardless of Ability and 4:7 weakness to resistance ratio as opposed to Goodra's 3:4). Dragalge has a better support movepool just coming from Scald and Toxic Spikes alone.
Still trying to arbitrarily place Dragalge in BW UU, huh? That's not even considering that Dragalge would have been one of the best Keldeo checks we could ever have gotten in BW OU, let alone the fact that it also checks Gengar, defensive Celebi, Venusaur, and every single Fire/Water type in BW OU.
I think that if this Pokemon's hidden ability is the rumored adaptability, then it could definitely see some use in OU as a bulky special tank. Stab poison attacks coupled (potentially) with the adaptability boost would be a huge deterrent for Fairy types and would give Dragalge a niche over Pokemon like Lati@s and Hydreygon that, otherwise, largely outclass it because of superior SpA and Spe.
EDIT: We now have actual proof of Dragalge's HA being Adaptability!
WOW Adaptability so dragalge probably get's the stronger DM? lol