1. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  2. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!

Dragon Arceus (Analysis)

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by Ice-eyes, Aug 17, 2010.

  1. Ice-eyes

    Ice-eyes Simper Fi

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2010
    Messages:
    1,658
    [OVERVIEW]

    • Look, it's God, in Dragon form!
    • <melodrama>
    • Excellent boosting sweeper on either side of the spectrum.
    • Very difficult to stop due to great bulk + movepool + typing.
    • Can dish out powerful Dragon attacks, but cannot take them without a handful of Calm Minds.
    [SET]
    name: Calm Mind Dragon
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Judgment
    move 3: Substitute
    move 4: Recover
    item: Draco Plate
    evs: 100 HP / 100 Def / 100 SpA / 100 SpD / 100 Spe
    nature: Timid

    <p>Dragon Arceus has the ideal combination of attributes for a Calm Mind user. It has great coverage in its powerful STAB Judgment and this, combined with bulk, speed and Recover, allows it to tear through teams. Defensive teams in particular can have serious problems, as the Substitutes Arceus creates cannot be broken by a Seismic Toss from Blissey.</p>

    <p>Holding a Draco Plate, Arceus has a good set of resistances to complement its bulk and it can manufacture plenty of opportunities to switch in and set up. Its powerful STAB Judgment hits many Ubers for super effective damage, while the majority of common resists are simply setup fodder. Recover is a useful tool which allows Arceus to shake off damage and completely shut down several common threats, such as Groudon. Substitute completes the set. One of its major functions is to block status, but it is also useful for scouting switch-ins; the likes of Garchomp or one of the Lati twins often hope to get in for free on a Calm Mind and Substitute lets Dragon Arceus OHKO the former and dent the latter with Judgment.</p>

    Why this set deserves to be on site

    • Fantastic mono-attacker with great one-attack coverage.
    • Breaks stall effectively.
    • 101 HP Substitutes and Recover allow it to easily get to +6 unscathed on the likes of Blissey.
    • Similar to Giratina-O, but faster, bulkier and able to Calm Mind against many more pokemon due to Recover.
    • More physical bulk than Latias, makes 101 Subs and doesn't have crippling Psychic-typing.
    • Outruns Palkia and Salamence.
    • Speed, bulk and Water resist allow it to check Kyogre and Palkia effectively (Timid Specs Water Spout doesn't 2HKO, though Ice Beam does 66.7% - 78.6%).
    Additional comments

    • Fire Blast / Flamethrower can be used over Substitute, frying Scizor and co.
    • This makes Arceus more difficult to wall - however, it becomes more vulnerable to status and stops it from setting up on Blissey etc.
    • Toxic Spikes really hurt its viability - it needs to come out before they go up. Refresh is an option, but then Arceus can have problems with Dragon-types coming in.
    • Rapid Spin support or a lead that can stop Forry getting opportunities early in the match is appreciated.
    name: Swords Dance Dragon
    move 1: Swords Dance
    move 2: Dragon Claw
    move 3: Earthquake / Overheat
    move 4: Recover
    item: Draco Plate
    evs: 100 HP / 100 Atk / 100 Def / 100 SpD / 100 Spe
    nature: Jolly

    Why this set deserves to be on site

    • Plays very differently to SD Rayquaza - Ray hits harder with more base Attack, more EVs and Life Orb while Arceus focuses on getting multiple Swords Dances with bulk and recovery. It's also faster, not weak to Rocks, doesn't die to random Ice attacks and doesn't need as much support to set up.
    • Excellent coverage and power lets Arceus boost up and smash through opposing teams.
    Additional comments

    • Dragon Claw makes the most of Recover and emphasises Arceus as a bulky sweeper. Outrage can be used for more power but makes Arceus easy to revenge which is bad.
    • Recover allows Arceus to take advantage of its bulk and differentiate itself from Rayquaza. Extremespeed is an option to hurt offensive teams - even Jolly, +2 Extremespeed has a chance to OHKO Palkia after Stealth Rock.
    • Sub can also be used over EQ / Overheat in order to take advantage of potential checks like Latias coming in and protect from status (useful vs Giratina), however coverage is lost.
    • Jolly outruns positive natured base 90s, +Spe Rayquaza and Timid Palkia. Adamant is not recommended even with Extremespeed as it means Arceus can be shut down by base 90s like Dialga and Kyogre that resist Normal and/or have the bulk to shrug off a weak non-STAB ES.
    Counters:

    • Steel-types with powerful physical attacks can take down the Calm Minder if it only has one or two boosts. However, most of them cannot do significant damage (56 Atk Scizor's U-Turn does a paltry 31.3% - 37.2%).
    • Adamant Choice Band Metagross 2HKOs with max Attack Meteor Mash. However, it should beware of boosted Judgments.
    • Strong Dragon attacks can also take the CM set down, but few Dragons can get in easily - they risk Arceus Substituting on the switch.
    • Latias can take a hit with its Soul Dew-boosted Special Defense and hit a once Calm Minded Arceus for ≈70%.
    • Latios can switch in and OHKO with Soul Dew Draco Meteor even after a Calm Mind.
    • The Swords Dancer, much like Swords Dance Rayquaza, is difficult to counter and usually has to be revenge-killed.
    • However, most Lugia are faster and can set up a Reflect before using Ice Beam and Roost to beat a +2 Arceus.
    • Jolly Garchomp is able to survive a +2 Extremespeed and OHKO.
    • Choice Scarf Dialga resists Extremespeed, is faster, and OHKOs with Draco Meteor (guaranteed with SR, without it there is a very small chance to miss the KO).
    • Without Overheat / Fire Blast, Skarmory walls it and can phaze.
    • Without Earthquake, Heatran resists every move and can hit back with Dragon Pulse or Explode. However it is at risk of being crippled even by resisted hits.
    Teammates:

    • Rapid Spin support is appreciated to remove Toxic Spikes, which are a huge problem for both sets (especially the Calm Minder). Forretress can provide this. The two also have excellent type synergy and Forry can take on powerful Dragon attacks from things like Choice Scarf Dialga and Palkia.
    • Forretress can also lay down entry hazards, which are especially beneficial to the Swords Dancer. Deoxys-S can do this as well.
    • The Calm Minder has problems with Latias. Thunder Wave Kyogre can lure it out and cripple it. Palkia can OHKO it on the switch with Outrage.
    • Arceus benefits from Steel-types being out of the way. Magnezone can trap Scizor and Metagross.
    • Equally, Latias can lure both out, OHKOing Metagross with +1 Soul Dew Thunder and heavily damaging Scizor.
    • Mixed Rayquaza is a great partner to SD Arceus, which shares counters to physical Ray. The likes of Groudon and Lugia can be lured in and crippled by an unexpected Draco Meteor.
    • Wobuffet can trap Choice Scarfers such as Dialga and Garchomp capable of revenge-killing the Swords Dancer.
  2. giggity69

    giggity69

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2009
    Messages:
    362
    Refresh may be worth a mention over sub because it negates the need for a spinner to get rid of toxic spikes, as well as turning Arceus into a general status absorber (bar sleep).
  3. Ice-eyes

    Ice-eyes Simper Fi

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2010
    Messages:
    1,658
    Probably that will go in OC.
  4. Farewell

    Farewell

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2008
    Messages:
    770
    For the Swords Dance Dragon set, why not use Garchomp? Higher Attack, Dual Stab for EQ + Dragon Claw, can max Attack, hold Life Orb or Yache Berry, and can come in on more moves (Thunder, Stone Edge, Poison Arceus' Judgement) and can hit harder since the EVs aren't limited.

    Yes, Arceus gets Recover, but is Garchomp not outclassing it otherwise? Especially with Sandstream support for Evasion?

    Also you mention priority without mentioning Extreme Speed, is that why you compare it Rayquaza, or because Ray has Roost (recovery)?
  5. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    1,985
    Rayquaza does not get Roost. Also Arceus is bulkier and reliable healing is a pretty big deal, as it allows Arceus to become a useful defensive Pokemon as well as an offensive one. Also, Thunders and Stone Edges don't do much to Dragon Arceus just because of its sheer bulk, not to mention Dragon Arceus doesn't keel over and die to any Ice move. And yeah, while Garchomp does hit harder after one SD, Arceus can often get multiple SDs thanks to bulk + Recover, and most Steel-types cannot defeat Dragon Arcerus one on one.
  6. giggity69

    giggity69

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2009
    Messages:
    362
    ^said just about everything I was going to. An additional perk is that because he is able to set up multiple SDs, he does not have to rely on outrage for power so reveng killing will be a bit more problematic.
  7. Ice-eyes

    Ice-eyes Simper Fi

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2010
    Messages:
    1,658
    Tinkered with comments. I'm considering slashing Substitute, maybe even as main slash - you get to nail stuff coming in like Latias, while you also get protection from status. Most Steel-types can't do anything back anyway.
  8. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight Well-shuffled and flush
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 27, 2005
    Messages:
    7,498
    Considering Arceus has higher speed than Rayquaza and Palkia (and less than a Garchomp of the same nature), what would be the value of a mixed set with Outrage/Draco Meteor?
  9. Megan_Fox

    Megan_Fox

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2009
    Messages:
    928
    i agree with deck night, a mixed dragon set should be looked into. not only does arceus outspeed Base 100s but it also has recovery as well
  10. Ice-eyes

    Ice-eyes Simper Fi

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2010
    Messages:
    1,658
    Hmmm... A Mix set might be viable, but I'm worried it might be outclassed by Rayquaza, which hits much harder, Palkia, which has fantastic dual STAB, and/or Giratina-O, which can block Rapid Spin. Yes, it's faster and has bulk / Recover, but those attributes don't really shine on a mixed set.
  11. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    1,985
    This looks good, but I would still at least test a Mixed set.

    [​IMG]
  12. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2009
    Messages:
    4,234
    I was wondering if we need a Mixed set too, but the only thing I can think of that Farceus does better in is bulk, speed and recovery. Offensively, 301 Atk/301 SpA is good, but isn't that impressive and it isn't going to break down that many walls any time soon (Hell, even
    Salamence has better attacking stats). No 4x weakness to Ice or SR weakness is nice, though.
  13. Theorymon

    Theorymon AHHHH REAL GOOMBAS!
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon IRC SOPis a Contributor to Smogonis a CAP Contributor Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2009
    Messages:
    1,311
    I know this sounds weird, but I think Cosmic Power should be slashed in with Earthquake on Swords Dance. Mostly because I found that with Cosmic Power, Dragon Arceus was becoming a bitch to take down, allowing me to grab more Swords Dances.
  14. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris an Artist Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2007
    Messages:
    8,139
    Translated: Scizor doesn't 'off it with U-Turn, nor does it get Scarf-tar'd. :P
  15. Great Sage

    Great Sage

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2006
    Messages:
    6,666
    Slash in Cosmic Power, as Theorymon said; it actually works very well.

    QC APPROVED 2/3
  16. bojangles

    bojangles IF YOU TRULY BELIEVE,
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 23, 2008
    Messages:
    2,911
    QC APPROVED 3/3
  17. mtr

    mtr

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2009
    Messages:
    1,773
    As a mixed attacker, Arceus may be even more potent than Rayquaza. It has more bulk, and lacks an SR weakness or LO recoil, along with instant recovery. All this means that it isnt necessarily one-time use, like Rayquaza is.
  18. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2007
    Messages:
    4,298
    From what firecape told me, Ice-Eyes was asked to do this on more than one occasion, and with it being a while since this hasn't been done, I think it's safe to move it. Ice-Eyes, if you decide to do this again, just let me know and I'll move the topic out.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)