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Dragon Dance in BW2

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by FaceFaceFace, Sep 28, 2012.

  1. FaceFaceFace

    FaceFaceFace

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    Hey guys!

    Dragon Dance: raises the user's Attack and Speed stats by one stage each.

    This great ability, coupled with the fact that its users possess arguably the highest usable Attack stat in the game, decent base speed, and a formidable typing, makes the best of us poop a little in our pants every time it happens.

    Who is the best Dragon Dancer?

    -Haxorus
    -Dragonite
    -Salamence
    -Tyranitar
    -Gyarados
    -Latios

    How are they different? What role does each have to play in a team? Is there any particular partners or combinations you use with your Dragon Dancers? And most importantly, how do you set up your dancers?

    Discuss!
  2. Matthew

    Matthew I love weather; Sun for days
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    salamence is, do not let the dragonite fanclub say otherwise. also use simple questions, simple answers for posts like these
  3. Boondocker

    Boondocker

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    Tyranitar is no longer a good dancer, due to the rise of Mach Punch, as well as the continued popularity of Bullet Punch. Dragonite is great because of Multi Scale, but without it its rather average. Salamence has the great ability to outspead Genesect, as well as Moxie, so its always attractive. Haxorous is the only Dragon Dancer (lol Latios) not 4x weak to Ice Shard, so it may have some use under Screens. They all have pros and cons.

    Charizard is, dont let anyone tell you otherwise.
  4. Ames

    Ames

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    You're forgetting the best one who doesn't have a shitty 4x weakness to priority!

    Sub Moxie Gyarados.
  5. Arash

    Arash

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    you may laugh, but i've used charizard to some success in OU:

    Charizard @ lum berry
    jolly, 252 atk / speed
    ability: blaze

    dragon dance
    flare blitz
    fly
    earthquake

    the only things that resist all of your moves are levitating / flying rock types (aerodactyl is probably the only one you'll ever see in OU) and rotom-W / rotom-F, along with shit like balloon heatran. after one dragon dance you outspeed and murder scarf genesect (everyone seems to forget that zard gets base 100 speed).

    you won't lose to scarf ditto because you have fly, and lum berry lets you nab a free boost more often than not. the set may seem too weak at first due to no attack boosting item / nature, but your STABs will usually do the job.

    of course, if you feel like supplying sun, this works far better, as people expect solar power special zard in the sun and switch in blissey and the like. flare blitz hits like a truck, especially once you kill some mons and activate blaze.
  6. Matthew

    Matthew I love weather; Sun for days
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    there is never a reason to run fly/bounce unless you are toxic stalling or stalling for leftovers recovery or are gyarados
  7. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    This discrimination against the art styles of quiver and swords dancing will not stand!

    Of those listed for "dragon dance" probably Haxorus, its not weak to rocks, quad weak to ice, and unlike the other ones, literally if you let it get another dance up, it is instant gg.

    Between Salamence and Dragonite, Im gonna have to go with Salamence because of moxie and sexy high special attack, sure Dragonite is cool and all before rocks, but Salamence doesn't need to weaken Skarm, it fire blasts high through it, a pokemon or two down, the game is yours.
  8. Ames

    Ames

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    Fly? The only thing that half gets away with a two turn move is Gyara.

    Also, the Charizard family got Acrobatics from an event (although that means it can't be bred DD in the first place).
  9. Clafairy

    Clafairy

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    Gyarados is the one that I've always had the most trouble dealing with, since I can't beat it by throwing Ice Shards, Bullet punches, or Mach Punches at it.
  10. Woodchuck

    Woodchuck i am woodchuck
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    Dragon Dance Latios outruns scarfchomp!!!!!

    On a more serious note, you should be running +Spe natures on DDMence due to Genesect now. Also, is Outrage worth it over Dragon Claw, considering you may get locked in and revenged by Genesect anyways?

    PK Gaming is right; Genesect is metagame defining.
  11. Joeyboy

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    I've been using DDmence a lot on an offensive team of mine and I definitely feel that Outrage is worth it. I run it with Lum Berry and at +2 I OHKO most Genesect with SR. So if your opponent sacks something to bring in Genesect to take a resisted hit and revenge, good luck.

    Anyway I agree with Matt, Sally the dragon is awesome.
  12. X5Dragon

    X5Dragon

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    Certified Dragonite Lover here, Sally doesn't have any priorities in his life, you want a responsible, adorable mon that can do anything and kill anything with just one dance an take life's hardships in the face. I go offensive adamant and so should everyone else :)

    On a side note a physical dancer that cannot be burned like Charizard is very tempting. Also, I am a certified Volca lover and no mon can bring such joy and satisfaction by sweeping an entire team by himself than her. Why don't people use the offensive modest version more, I can never tell.

    OK I'm gonna leave before I get arrested for something...
  13. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    The problem with Volcarona is the introduction of Terrakion. Well, really any Scarfer that's faster than base 100 that has access to Stone Edge/Rock Slide (Infernape is seeing more usage, but yeah). Also, Heatran hard walls him without HP Ground, after which virtually ever Dragon walls you since you don't have HP Rock.
  14. CrackinSkulls

    CrackinSkulls

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    Wow I honestly didn't know we were still having this discussion! None of the Pokemon can be the "best" Dragon Dancer (except for Charizard which is just no, don't use it) because they each have an individual niche. If we are going by reliability alone; the ability to get a Dragon Dance easiest then Dragonite far surpasses any other due to Multiscale. Not only that, it also has Extremespeed which patches up its lack-luster speed tier and prevents priority from killing it easily. If we are talking about the most dangerous with a Dragon Dance under its belt then you can't look past Salamence. It has a great speed, incredible power topped up by Moxie and a great ability to go mixed. Now Gyarados is a different kettle of fish (lol pun) he is a sort of half half between the two, he is reliable thanks to his typing and deadly, especially in the rain. Not only that can shrug off all forms of priority.

    Gyarados is tough to use because tbh more often than not he will be outclassed but applying him in the right circumstances makes him very effective. Tyranitar falls under the same category but is even more specific for previously mentioned reasons.

    When it comes to Haxorus (and Charizard to some extent) is that they both have other options that are far more effective. Charizard has specs in the sun, very hard to pull off but very powerful. Haxorus has SD which can tear down just about anything.

    To sum up, no DD user is better than another. They all have different advantages and disadvantages.
  15. Temp V1

    Temp V1 Movin' at the speed of life and I can't slow down

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    Well Tyranitar really shouldn't be brought into this discussion, as Boondocker said, in a metagame filled with priority Tyranitar just isn't as good as it used to be.
    Gyarados is indeed a decent DD user, however it also isn't anywhere near as threatening as it once was, although it still has more use than Tyranitar in this metagame.
    Haxorus is indeed a good dancer, and when I run Haxorus I like to use the DD set, although he too is outclassed.

    Now onto the real discussion, Dragonite vs Salamence.

    Just so that its here for everyone to view I'll quickly post each of the two's base stats for convenience.

    [​IMG]

    Dragonite
    Inner Focus/Multiscale

    - 91 HP
    - 134 Attack
    - 95 Defense
    - 100 Special Attack
    - 100 Special Defense
    - 80 Speed

    [​IMG]

    Salamence
    Intimidate/Moxie

    - 95 HP
    - 135 Attack
    - 80 Defense
    - 110 Special Attack
    - 80 Special Defense
    - 100 Speed

    *Bolded is the superior stat

    By analyzing the stats side by side, it becomes quite obvious that Salamence has the superior offensive stats, with a slightly higher base attack and a substantially increased speed stat. Couple that with Moxie and Salamence is able to just keep stacking the boosts with each KO. That does make Mence the outright candidate for best DD user, however I wouldn't put the issue to bed on that alone.
    What Dragonite loses in offensive prowess, it makes up for in its bulk. Dragonite boasts higher Defense and Special Defense, alongside the coveted Multiscale. What this means is that Dragonite, while never being a more offensive force than Mence, will generally be able to set up more easily. Mence will outspeed a lot more than Dragonite will, allowing it to possibly get that boost before the enemy attacks, and then responding with a boosted attack. Dragonite on the other hand, provided Multiscale is intact, will have a larger variety of situations in which it can set up. It is Dragonite's bulk which still keeps this discussion alive, as without it Mence would far outclass Dragonite as a DD user, however the bulk is there and it must be considered.

    As of that, the two are on par because they each have their advantage. So what is is that can really separate and differentiate them? The answer: Not a lot. Because they share exactly the same typing, and very similar movepools, neither has a clear cut advantage over the other. What needs to be taken into consideration when choosing which one to use on a team, it generally helps to add it to the team in the latter parts of the team building process. This way you can establish exactly what sort of a DD Dragon you want, a bulkier one that has more situations in which to set up, or a more offensive force. Until one of them is granted a move that the other is not, in a future generation perhaps, they will always be incredibly similar. The choice comes down to what suits an individuals team better.

    Personally I run Mence and Dragonite in equal amounts. I prefer to use Mence on my more offensively oriented teams, or stall teams that require one serious offensive threat. However when I do use Mence I am almost always using ScarfMoxie Mence, which would be Mence's most superior set by far. When I use Dragonite, its either the parashuffling set, or the DD set. Dragonite's most effective set is easily the DD set. The CB set is great to use, for immediate offensive power, although the DD set really does outclass that once you get a boost or two. By that, if you were to compare the two Dragons, and their best individual sets, you would have to say that Dragonite is the best DD user. Although I don't think you could say that and have it be true.

    To reiterate what CrackinSkulls said, there is no definitive best user of Dragon Dance, although these two are at the head of the pack.
  16. Taylor

    Taylor stardust infinite
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    Haxorus' double dance set critically lures in Steel-types and doesn't fall flat to Mamoswine, unless the latter runs Choice Band. It plows through teams if given the opportunity to set up without suffering a large blow to its health, and pure Dragon-type alone means it wields no x4 weakness.

    Personally, Salamence works more effective when using the mixed set. I hear how ScarfMence is a great late-game sweeper but the longer you leave it in your backrow, it's simple to pick up on its set and so they hold their Scizor/Mamoswine or reserve a Steel-type for when you attempt to plow through your opponents' team with Moxie + Outrage. This is why I prefer using the Draco Meteor/Flamethrower/Brick Break and abuse Roost + Intimidate for reliable "wall breaking" and keeping your health reasonably sound from priority, etc.

    Dragonite (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Multiscale
    EVs: 252 HP / 96 Def / 136 SDef / 24 Spd
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Dragon Claw
    - Dragon Dance
    - Substitute
    - Roost

    In my opinion this is the best late-game sweeper, strictly Dragon Dance-esque speaking . You know Dragon Claw is all you need so long as you remove or severely weaken opposing Steel-types. You have the natural bulk, Multi Scale and Roost to compliment most attacks (bar Icicle Spears, Blizzards and Specs/Banded Meteors/Outrages). After all, taking 35% on average from CBScizor's Bullet Punch gives Dragonite the time to set up and successfully sweep.

    Speaking of Multi Scale, in conjunction with Substitute and Roost, presents you the opportunity to set up Dragon Dances and laugh off any Hidden Power [Ice] users in the game. When Salamence ran a similar set in DP, the opponent had to merely switch out to shrug off the Intimidate effect, where as Dragonite's Multi Scale gives a sense that its almost immovable without exposing their revenge killers to a boosted Dragon Claw.

    They do have their own roles and niches which rise above the other, but I suggest the OP is updated with more content for this discussion to continue.

    Edited OP by including Latios + Gyarados.
  17. FaceFaceFace

    FaceFaceFace

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    I was merely listing a few suspects - it wasn't intended as a be all end all list. Please do update/edit it as you see fit.

    The actual intent of the thread was to find out who can effectively run DD sets, and what niche they fulfill. The whole 'best' dancer thing was merely devil's advocate. :p

    Gyarados seems to be the bulkiest dancer I've come across; even moreso than Dragonite, although it's offensive presence can be initially somewhat...lacking.
  18. shrang

    shrang Defend the Headquarters of Revolution
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    I always ran +Speed Salamence before Genesect came along. In fact, I see absolutely no reason to run +Atk on DD Mence. You outspeed and speed-tie way too many things. I was always wondering why I was so lucky in winning every Speed-tie between ScarfMence vs other +1 Salamences when I realised I wasn't winning speed-ties, I was guaranteed it because everyone ran +Atk Salamence and not +Speed.
  19. SapphSabre777

    SapphSabre777

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    Salamence and Haxorus are the contenders for best Dragon Dancer. Salamence has high speed and can go mixed very easily, but suffers from the 4x Ice weakness. Haxorus is simply raw power, and anything that comes in its way is done for. Haxorus cannot go to a mix set, so Ferrothorn walls it effortlessly.

    Dragonite is a good Dragon Dancer, given Multiscale. It allows at least one Dragon Dance to be set up by Dragonite; however, Ice Shard simply murders it.

    Gyarados is very good, especially with Moxie. The only way to get rid of DD Gyarados after it sets up DD is using Scarfed Pokemon (preferably Electric).

    Latios using Dragon Dance allows it to outspeed Scarf users. This has its pros and cons. It will be very hard to predict if a Latios will Dragon Dance considering the widespread use of it as a sweeper. As for cons, SUCKER PUNCH. 'Nuff said.

    Tyranitar is the worst of the Dragon Dancers in this group. It is decent to run, but the strategy suffers from two things. First, Mach Punch and Bullet Punch create a reversal of roles. Second, Tyranitar's Speed is quite low, so for a fast Scarfed Pokemon, it will likely receive heavy damage or a KO.
  20. Bryce

    Bryce Lun

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    Salamence,Dragonite are the ones that should be ahead imo.Salamence can be classified as the better sweeper after Dragon Dance while Dragonite is the safer one.Higher speed,Moxie and higher special attack is really the selling point for Mence being the best user of Dragon Dance.However Dragonite will come in handy in many cases for immediate DD in such an offensive metagame.Multiscale is easily one of the best abilities in the game.One alone cannot be classified as the best dragon dancer.it really depends on what role they are suppose to fill.

    Haxorus and Gyarados are both pretty good contenders too,but both of them are inferior to the Flying dragon duo in my book.Gyarados is a menace in Rain but suffers from the lack of move coverage.

    Haxorus on the other hand has the ability to use the potent double dance set.But again movepool is an issue.It needs Aqua Tail in Rain to beat Skarmory but is walled by ferro.If it runs superpower for ferro then it cannot get past Skarm.I understand it can do alot of damage any way,but still this inability to get past some walls is contradictory to the purpose of this set.It can't get fast forry without prior damage anyway.The lack of 4x Ice weakness seems appealing though.But it doesn't make too much of a difference against strong ice attackers.
  21. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    Tyranitar may be the worst DDer; I've used it a few time ago, however, to decent sucess. It's not that bad, but is the hardest DDer to use, and is the least fruitful; you have to remove all Fighting-types (except Lucario wich can be defeated by a +1 Fire Punch since you outspeed him), bulky Water-types, Skarmory and Scizor. So basically, you have a lot of things to remove, and on my battles, when I had a chance to sweep with Tyranitar, in the end of things I didn't had to use it at all since it had just left one or two things to Tyranitar sweep. Also, despite what is said in the Smogon analysis, the best coverage move is definitively Fire Punch. Both Aqua Tail and Ice Punch make you vulnerable to Steel-types (except Heatran in case of Aqua Tail). This set is good to use if you want to surprise your opponent, but Tyranitar is best used to support the team, not to be supported.

    The best DDer is certainly Salamence, due to its great speed, acess to Moxie to continue increasing its attack or Intimidate if you want to setup easier... It can easily remove Steel-types by itself with Fire Blast or Earthquake... I didn't yet used Dragonite, and I confess that I don't want to use it because of "the Dragonite fanclub".

    About Haxorus, it is still frail, but it's powerful. Remove all things that can ouspeed and kill him, Skarmory and Ferrothorn, and you are doomed.

    About Latios; It's the weakest DDer. It may be the fastest, and has the advantage to even go mixed because of its higher SpA, but still due to its mediocre base 90 AtK I doubt that it makes a good DDer over even Tyranitar.
  22. ganj4lF

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    Dragonite in my opinion has quite a few advantages over Salamence as a Dragon Dancer. Salamence is indeed more powerful and scary at +1, with substantially better Speed, marginally better Attack and Moxie threatening a snowball effect. However, it is extremely easy to revenge kill; there is a plethora of common Scarfers with more than base 100 Speed and access to a random Ice move to cut Salamence's sweep short, not to even mention priority users (hi Mamoswine, hi Scizor) that usually need very marginal residual damage, if at all, to get rid of Mence. All those problems are relatively less important for Dragonite: first of all, your opponent must have broken Multiscale before even thinking about a revenge kill (well, except those +1 SpA Genesect, but Download should give an Atk boost in most cases while switching into Dragonite); even if Multiscale is not active, Dragonite has access to Extremespeed, which is literally invaluable in my experience, since you only need to weaken a bit most checks in order to sweep. To sum up, Dragonite has more reliable sweeping abilities after setting up, being more resilient to common checks and having access to strong priority. Of course, Salamence is better provided you remove every obstacle between it and a clean sweep, but in my opinion reliability is often better than raw power, thus my preference for Dragonite.

    Also, this is not strictly related to the previous point, but Dragonite has access to a physical Fire move, which is quite a bit of an advantage over Mence, which is forced to use Fire Blast; the fact that it's not boosted by DD and its shaky accuracy are always a letdown, at least for my tastes.
  23. Arcticblast

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    There are a few Pokemon not mentioned that are OU viable and can run Dragon Dance as well.

    Lapras gets Hydration DD+Rest, allowing it to prevent the bane of all sweepers - status. It also gets their primary STAB boosted in Rain, and is just a pain in the ass to play around. The problems lie in the fact that it can only run two attacking moves and has a horrible typing.

    Scrafty has an amazing STAB combination, excellent bulk, and not two but THREE great abilities for a setup sweeper. Its problems are why it fell out of OU favor though - bad defensive typing, weakness to Mach Punch, and it's ridiculously weak.

    Kingdra gets DD+Rain Dance and an excellent STAB combination, but is a bit on the weak side and gets hard walled by Ferrothorn.

    Crawdaunt has Adaptability but is otherwise not a great user of the move.

    Altaria and Tropius aren't OU viable, and Whiscash and Feraligatr don't have the tools to run their best DD set (Hydration/Sheer Force respectively) ...yet.
  24. DGX

    DGX

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    i think haxorus is the best D Dancer,i mean 432 atk is good and 293 speed is decent.
  25. Superpowerdude

    Superpowerdude "The Phone-Post King"
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    Sorry for the short post because i am on my phone (i will edit this post later to give my opinion on the dragon dancers) but what do you think about putting a poll up "what is the most effective Dragon Dancer" list all the pokemon in the op and list "not sure" as well. I think that would be a great idea but maybe thats just me.

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