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Dragonair (Analysis)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by SOMALIA, Jul 28, 2010.

  1. SOMALIA

    SOMALIA Fuck Ass Noob
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    http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/dragonair

    QC 2/2

    Let me start by saying that although Dragonair has no significant impact in the UU metagame and is seemingly outclassed in many ways, fragile, an analysis has to be written on it and the 'Dragon Dance' set is by far the best regarding what Dragonair has to offer.

    [Overview]

    <p>Dragonair is often overlooked in UU due to its mediocre stats and NFE status; however, it does have a few strong points. In addition to the sheer power of STAB Outrage, Dragonair has a very impressive movepool, which makes up for Dragonair's not-so-great offensive attributes. The dragon snake is also a great choice for teams that need a wallbreaking partner or late-game sweeper. Access to a priority attack in ExtremeSpeed, combined with the fact that Dragonair lacks a 4x weakness to Ice-type attacks, gives it advantages over Altaria and Gabite. Overall, Dragonair's excellent type coverage, powerful STAB attacks, many resistances, and lack of a Stealth Rock weakness make it a powerful Pokemon that should not be underestimated.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Dragon Dance
    move 1: Dragon Dance
    move 2: ExtremeSpeed
    move 3: Outrage
    move 4: Aqua Tail
    ability: Shed Skin
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 52 HP / 252 Atk / 204 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Despite its impressive movepool, Dragonair cannot successfully utilize many of its potential moves due to its mediocre stats, which is typical for a NFE Pokemon. Nevertheless, its access to Dragon Dance allows Dragonair to function as a moderately powerful physical sweeper. Additionally, unlike other sweepers, Dragonair does not fear getting inflicted with status thanks to its awesome ability, Shed Skin.</p>

    <p>After a single Dragon Dance, Dragonair hits a respectable 341 Speed, outspeeding everything up to positive-natured base 105s, a large majority of the UU metagame. Although there are Pokemon that outspeed Dragonair even after a Dragon Dance boost, such as Dugtrio and Alakazam, they are also fragile enough to be taken down by a boosted ExtremeSpeed. As stated above, ExtremeSpeed is one of the biggest reasons to consider Dragonair over the other Dragon-types in UU; it not only allows it to revenge kill weakened, faster threats, but also to protect itself from priority revenge kills after it has set up a Dragon Dance or two. Outrage is Dragonair's most reliable physical STAB move, since Dragon Rush's poor accuracy can cause a potential sweep to go astray, not to mention the vital extra power that Outrage provides. Aqua Tail has almost unresisted coverage alongside Outrage, and helps Dragonair deal with bulky Ground- and Steel-types, hitting the likes of Registeel for neutral damage. One of the primary reasons Aqua Tail is used over Waterfall is that it can OHKO 140 HP / 0 Def Rhyperior after Stealth Rock, something Waterfall can only very rarely accomplish.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EV spread is tailored to outspeed specific Pokemon, as well as giving Dragonair maximum power. 204 Speed EVs with an Adamant nature allows Dragonair to outspeed and crush the likes of Mismagius and Scyther after a single Dragon Dance boost. If 341 Speed is not sufficient for you, a Jolly nature combined with 232 Speed EVs allow Dragonair to outrun even positive-natured base 125 Speed Pokemon after a Dragon Dance, though Dragonair will miss out on the power provided by the listed EV spread.</p>

    <p>Due to Dragonair's mediocre offensive stats, entry hazard support is greatly appreciated. Omastar and Qwilfish have good synergy with Dragonair, and can set up multiple entry hazards. Donphan shares an Ice-type weakness with the dragon snake, but it still makes a good teammate due to its ability to set up Stealth Rock, as well as utilize Rapid Spin to remove them from your side. Donphan can also deal with Steel-types that would otherwise trouble Dragonair, such as Registeel, with its powerful STAB Earthquake. Venusaur is another great teammate for Dragonair, as it can put opposing Pokemon to sleep, thereby granting Dragonair a safe switch-in (and possibly a few turns to set up). Dragonair's defensive stats are mediocre at best, so finding time to set up is quite a task. Dragonair can set up against Chansey and Clefable, due to Seismic Toss being the main form of offense for the aforementioned Pokemon. Non-offensive Spiritomb are good set-up bait as well, since Shadow Sneak and Will-O-Wisp won't be doing much to Dragonair. Paralysis support is also invaluable, as Dragonair finds it much easier to set up and sweep when the opposing team is crippled thus. Uxie and Chansey have access to Thunder Wave, and are bulky enough to reliably utilize it throughout the match, as well as absorb powerful physical and special attacks aimed at Dragonair, respectively.</p>

    [Team Options]

    <p>What usually prevents Dragonair from sweeping is the presence of a Steel-type on your opponent's team. Registeel and Steelix, though the latter is weak to Aqua Tail, can take several hits from Dragonair and retaliate with Iron Head and Gyro Ball (which nails an easy 2HKO on Dragonair), respectively. Magneton and Dugtrio are wonderful teammates to sort out this problem, as they can trap the aforementioned walls thanks to their abilities and dispose of them. Magneton also has great defensive synergy with Dragonair. Dugtrio is also a good option thanks to its ability, Arena Trap, allowing it to trap pesky Steel-types and hit them with STAB Earthquake. Unfortunately, Dugtrio shares an Ice-type weakness with Dragonair, so packing another Pokemon capable of absorbing Ice-type attacks is a must. Blaziken and Moltres are also good teammates for Dragonair, as they do well against Steel-types and bulky physical walls in general, threatening them with their impressive STAB Fire-type moves. Bulky Water-types such as Milotic and Slowbro have impressive bulk, and can slowly wear down Registeel with Surf, while drowning Steelix and Aggron. Spiritomb can get rid of opposing Mismagius and Rotom with Pursuit, which is very helpful to Dragonair, as the aforementioned Ghosts are immune to ExtremeSpeed and can survive a +1 Aqua Tail, forcing Dragonair to lock itself in with Outrage if it wants to OHKO them.</p>

    <p>Due to its below-average all-around stats, entry hazard support is neccessary for utilizing Dragonair to its full potential. Omastar, Mesprit, and Uxie are great entry hazard users, the former being able to set up both Stealth Rock and Spikes, while the latter two, despite only being able to set up Stealth Rock, can also provide paralysis and dual screen support, which can greatly aid Dragonair when attempting to sweep. Cloyster and Donphan can spin away the opponent's entry hazards, as well as setting up their own; Donphan can also get rid of opposing Steel-types with its STAB Earthquake.</p>

    [Optional Changes]

    <p>Dragonair has been blessed with a huge movepool. However, most of its viable options are limited due to its poor stats. Dragon Rush is an option if you dislike the prospect of being locked into Outrage for several turns, though its inferior power and accuracy are unattractive. Return has little reason to be considered, as it has poor coverage alongside Outrage. While many players think of Dragonair as a physical sweeper, it actually has an extensive special movepool. Fire Blast can be used on a special or mixed set, and it is the only way Dragonair can take on Registeel. Dragonair also learns Surf and Thunderbolt, the former annihilating Rock-types such as Rhyperior, as well as dealing with Fire-types, while the latter can hit Water-type Pokemon for serious damage, landing a 2HKO on Milotic after Stealth Rock damage (considering maximum EV investment). Draco Meteor is Dragonair's strongest attack, capable of picking off physical walls, as well as denting almost anything that does not resist it.</p>

    [Counters]

    <p>Cloyster is one of the best counters to Dragonair thanks to its impressive physical bulk and STAB Ice-type attacks. Bulky Pokemon such as Milotic and Omastar can 2HKO Dragonair with Ice Beam, and can take a boosted Outrage pretty well. Registeel resists every attack Dragonair commonly carries bar Aqua Tail and Fire Blast, which the former will not deal much damage after a boost, and can temporarily hinder Dragonair with Thunder Wave and proceed to finish it off with Ice Punch or Iron Head. Slowbro falls in the same category, able to take repeated attacks and beating Dragonair with STAB Psychic, or Ice Beam. Due to Donphan's sheer bulk and great Attack, it can easily take boosted hits and finish off Dragonair with a combination of Earthquake and Ice Shard. Torterra can take a boosted hit or two and retaliate with STAB Earthquake. Weezing, despite not resisting Outrage, has the physical bulk to take several hits and can temporarily cripple Dragonair with Will-O-Wisp.</p>
  2. breh

    breh ● ︿ ●
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    Please explain why this is worth using in place of shelgon. Shelgon has 20 less base speed and 20 less SpD, and no extremespeed or (amdittedly less useful) waterfall but a bit more attack, Dragon Claw, and Brick break in its place, thus actually letting it do some damage to registeel

    For reference: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69497
  3. Elgoo

    Elgoo

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    Well I wouldnt say it is more useful but it has its niche. Dragonair is more of a Clean up type while Shelgon is a more powerful hard hitting sweeper. Thunder wave can completely cripple Shelgon while Dragonair has Shed Skin to help with status. The extra speed is very useful In hitting swellow and other fast friends and extremespeed, which you admitted was very useful, can pick off weak scarfers. I stated that steels needed to be taken care of in the teammates/counters section.
  4. DarkSlay

    DarkSlay This Wouldn't Have Happened In Romney's Smogon
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    Hey there! I've used Dragonair to reasonable success in the past, and I have a few things to add.

    • Outrage should be the first choice over Dragon Rush (if any slash).
    While I understand that Outrage locks you into a move, Dragonair cannot afford to miss an attack at all, lest it be OHKO'd by...well, pretty much anything. Dragon Rush's 75% accuracy is terrible, and isn't really competitively sound. Dragonair can't afford the power drop either as it needs the 140 BP of Outrage to beat certain threats (Milotic and Slowbro, for example). Since the Steels in the UU metagame are pretty much whittled down to Registeel and Aggron (who is hit with Aqua Tail SE), there is little fear in using Outrage unless your opponent has one of these two AND can bait properly. In my opinion, Dragon Rush shouldn't be on the set at all, but that's up to QC to decide.

    • Consider Lum Berry on the Offensive set as a slash.
    Yes, Dragonair does have Shed Skin, which is an awesome ability for status. However, Lum Berry guarantees you at least one extra Dragon Dance on numerous Pokemon, particularly Venusaur and Spiritomb, who will try to Sleep / Burn you constantly. Shed Skin cannot be relied on to heal status immediately, after all. Dragonair can't afford to have even one inactive turn, since it's so frail, which makes Lum Berry a more conservative option over Life Orb. The extra Dragon Dance will give Dragonair more power than a +1 LO set anyway, without the 10% loss of health each turn. Life Orb still should be the primary option, since it's more of an immediate power boost, but Lum Berry should be considered.

    • Get rid of the Bulky Dragon Dance set.
    I'm not too sold on what this set has over Altaria, who has Natural Cure, an instant recovery move, much better Defensive stats, and access to Earthquake. While the Offensive set has higher Attack, Speed (although Altaria could run Hasty), and access to a strong priority move, this set doesn't accomplish anything that Altaria cannot do better. I don't believe QC will accept it at all.

    • Mention Fire-types as ideal partners for Dragonair offensively.
    Houndoom, Arcanine, Magmortar, and Entei all make for optimal partners for Dragonair. They can easily dispatch of most of the Steel types that will hurt Dragonair's sweep. They resist Ice attacks aimed at Dragonair, while Dragonair resists Water attacks (although it should not switch into Bulky Waters, since most carry Ice Beam as a compliment). The first two can also get free boosted switch-ins on Will-O-Wisp aimed at Dragonair, and threaten things like Spiritomb, Registeel, and Venusaur immediately.

    That's it for now. Good luck, and hope this helps!

    @ Breludicolo:

    The biggest difference between Dragonair and Shelgon is Speed. At +1, Shelgon cannot outrun threats like Mismagius and Sceptile, who can reduce or eliminate your sweep with Shadow Ball and HP Ice, respectively. Dragonair's Shed Skin ability is also a major factor, since it can shrug off Burn and Paralysis after a turn or two generally. Rock Head is useless on Shelgon. While it's walled by Registeel, Shelgon has a hard time getting by Donphan and even Rhyperior without getting locked into Outrage. Aqua Tail deals with both well enough.
  5. Elgoo

    Elgoo

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    Thanks A lot Drkslay, Ill do that. And I definately support Machoke for UU Xp
  6. supermarth64

    supermarth64 Here I stand in the light of day
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  7. Elgoo

    Elgoo

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    Alright then,

    @LonelyNess, You have good arguments, and are most likely going to use your powers to throw my arguments out the window, but I will at least attempt to make my point. I only suggest a dragon dancer set, it is the only way Dragonair can be effective. At +2+2 (not too hard to achieve if you run lum berry) you will Ohko Rhypherior with Aqua tail, you will ohko and outspeed Trickscarf rotom. Spiritomb will be ohkoed if Spikes and stealth rock, which I mentioned was needed in the partners/counters section. I also mentioned that it is walled by steels, and that they should be taken out before a sweep is attempted. Aqua tail will always 2hko aggron at +2. The sole dragon type isnt as much of a negativity as you make it out to be, because Dragonair is frail, There is no sugar coating it, but Alakazam is frail as well, but it still is effective. Dragonair, If it dances up, can become very deadly. Similar to say... Nasty plot/Swords dance infernape, If it sets up, it is Deadly, but if it fails to set up, it gets demolished by anything with descent BP. For that mess of reasons, I believe Dragonair deserves any analysis. And if you argue my points, please dont just say im wrong, that shows cowardice, please show me exactly why I am so inferior.
    Good day
    -Elgoo
  8. shrang

    shrang Defend the Headquarters of Revolution
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    I'm not LN, but I will respond to the bolded sections. I love Dragonair to death, but I think you're going to have to justify yourself more soundly than this.

    Bold point 1: Aqua Tail will OHKO Rhyperior at +2/+2, but there's no way in hell you're going to get there unless you do something ridiculous. Even with Dual Screens, Dragonair is going to die really quickly. Lum Berry is almost meh in my opinion, since Dragonair has Shed Skin anyway. In short, Lum is not going to help you get 2 DDs as you say, and it's REALLY difficult to get Dragonair to get there. Trust me, I've tested Dragonair and it's hard enough getting ONE Dragon Dance as it is.

    Bold point 2: You 2HKO Aggron, so?? He OHKOs with you Head Smash before you lay the 2nd hit (Assuming Aggron comes in as you DD, takes the Aqua Tail and then kills you).

    Bold point 3: Alakazam has 50 more Base Speed than Dragonair, allowing it outspeed pretty much the whole tier save a few faster mons and Scarfers. Alakazam doesn't need to set up to hit hard too.

    Bold point 4: Like the Alakazam example, Ape has enough power and speed initially to force out Pokemon so he CAN set up. Dragonair doesn't have either of them.
  9. Elgoo

    Elgoo

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    Bold point 1: I am sort of assuming that a venesaur or spritomb will come in and try to status me as I set up my second dance

    Bold point 2: I was assuming he comes in on a aqua tail, I dont dare set up until I have scouted for steels

    Bold ponts 3&4: You got me, but on my current RMT, I use Zam and Nair, so meh.
  10. shrang

    shrang Defend the Headquarters of Revolution
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    Why won't they just kill Dragonair with Sludge Bomb or Shadow Ball or whatever the hell their attacks are??
  11. Elgoo

    Elgoo

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    Im not sure, but they usually try to cripple me, ask the shoddy ladder. But yeah Sludge bomb or Shadow ball would definately dent Dragonair.
  12. DarkSlay

    DarkSlay This Wouldn't Have Happened In Romney's Smogon
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    Perhaps I can be of assistance here.

    First off, it seems that LonelyNess posted in that thread on March 24th of this year. Seeing that, I immediately know that Dragonair was being used in the Froslass / Raikou era at the time, and even perhaps the pre-Rhyperior / Alakazam era. The metagame has shifted dramatically since then, seeing how prevalent Rhyperior, Venusaur, Donphan, Milotic, and Moltres are. Dragonair was not fit to be in that environment, which was correct on LonelyNess' part. However, now that Raikou and Froslass (especially) have been banned, and new threats have emerged, it is fair to give Dragonair a look.

    If we are to compare Dragonair to Altaria, the only way we can do this is by the Offensive Altaria set, seeing how it's futile to compare the Defensive DD'er to an Offensive DD'er in Dragoniar. We know that Dragonair cannot run a Bulky set. Dragonair has more Attack, virtually the same Speed (again, Altaria can run a +Speed nature, but loses out on considerable power), and a really nice Priority move to defeat some Scarf users. Altaria has better overall uninvested Defenses, but is weak to SR and has more weaknesses. Dragonair loses to Steels like Registeel and Aggron outright, but Altaria has a much harder time getting past Donphan and Rhyperior. Dragonair can OHKO Offensive Rhyperior with Aqua Tail at +1 with LO (and possibly without LO, if you have decent Spikes support) and can severely hurt Donphan with Aqua Tail after Spikes + SR. Altaria cannot say the same, as it is OHKO'd by SR + Ice Shard over half of the time, and guaranteed to die even if it gets in one hit thanks to Life Orb. It is also OHKO'd by Rhyperior's Stone Edge. This alone should be in consideration for Dragonair getting an analysis, as is has noticeable perks over Altaria.

    Secondly is a boosted priority attack. While this kind of coverage seems redundant, let us not forget that a +1 LO ExtremeSpeed can be very deadly. For example, it can OHKO Scarf Hitmonlee with just one layer of Spikes down a majority of the time (which checks DDAltaria). It can OHKO Scarf Dugtrio. It can OHKO Swellow after SR. Most importantly, it out-speeds any Priority in the metagame, bar Scarf Priority users. It goes before and nullifies Sucker Punch from Toxicroak. It goes before Swellow's Quick Attack. Altaria, of course, can do absolutely none of this.

    Sure, it's not bulky. But it doesn't have to be in this role. It can distinctively beat Pokemon that generally can beat Altaria. It has niches that no other Pokemon can fulfill. For that, it definitely deserves a set.

    In response to Shrang:

    Lum Berry is actually a pretty conservative item choice, much like how Dragonite utilizes it. While obviously Dragonite is much, much bulkier than Dragonair, that doesn't exclude the fact that Dragonair is open to status, which many individuals attempt to hinder Dragonair with. If you Dragon Dance and Venusaur switches in, then expect the Sleep Powder. After all, Sleep Powder is the most universal move on all Venusaur sets, not Sludge Bomb. Venusaur needs Sludge Bomb to beat Dragonair, as Leaf Storm, Power Whip, and Earthquake just don't cut it. If it lacks it, the only way it's touching Dragonair is Sleep Powder. This is just common sense, or else it will die. I've used Dragonair in the past as well, and have found Lum to be somewhat useful. It's in no way the primary choice, but if played correctly, it's a good option.
  13. Elgoo

    Elgoo

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    Thanks a lot slay, I didnt even check to see when LN posted that, and yeah, Extremespeed is very deadly at +1 LO.
  14. shrang

    shrang Defend the Headquarters of Revolution
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    +0 LO Venusaur's Power Whip vs current Dragonair: 49.07% - 57.99%.

    You're not getting two Dragon Dances, ever. Sludge Bomb is also VERY common on Venusaur these days, since Special LO is now standard. Yes, with one, you can kill the Venusaur with Outrage, but will fail to kill other things. Oh, and just one note about the set: 28 HP EVs gets you to an HP stat of 270, which is probably the worst number to have if you're running Life Orb (Come on people, let's pay attention to these things). 24 HP is better.
  15. Elgoo

    Elgoo

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    I didnt know the life orb math. I just aimed for a certian speed number, maxed attack and dumped the rest into HP, would you suggest
    24hp/252atk/4def/228 spe? And if i Dragon dance when Venusaur switches in, Dragon dance again when He power whips, is that not 2 dragon dances? Ooh, and thank you for debating, and not just saying im wrong and not giving reasoning, I respect that.
  16. shrang

    shrang Defend the Headquarters of Revolution
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    The thing is Venusaur is probably not a great Pokemon to switch into Dragonair anyway. I mean, why would I switch in Venusaur to Dragonair when it'll kill Venusaur with +1 Outrage anyway?? Unless I'm using a Pokemon like Chansey, why wouldn't I just kill Dragonair as it goes for DD no. 1??

    Probably better.
  17. Elgoo

    Elgoo

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    Ill change the EV spread. And The object is to Switch in on a pokemon that has a hard time dealing with Dragonair or that Dragonair can take on by itself, I.e. Defensive venesaur or as you mentioned, chansey. And I'm going to mention memento support in the teammates and counters section, that will ensure at least one DD
  18. breh

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    Out of curiosity, how does this do against Milotic?

    Anyway, Although I'm not sure about how well this works with Dragonair in place of Altaria, but would a core of Registeel (or steelix, if you want)/Dragonair/Weezing work?
  19. Elgoo

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    Im not sure how that core would work man, I currently use a Dragonair/Torkoal core But it probobly would to fine. Milotic, im not really sure, Ive only faced one and I forgot it packed ice beam, lemme run a calc real quick.

    Jolly +1 LO Outrage vs
    bold 248/252 milotic = 60.3% - 71.2% Clean 2hko, Can actually pull off the 2hko if i predict the switch
    calm 252/200 milotic = 70.1% - 82.5% meh, I need spikes and rocks to ohko
    timid 4/min milotic = 103.9% - 122.3% Clean ohko
    modest 152/80 milotic = 84.8% - 100.3% High chance to ohko with rocks, will ohko with rocks and 1 layer of spikes
  20. Darkamber8828

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    Adamant +1 252 Outrage vs 248/252 Milotic: 66.4% - 78.1%

    Not good matchup, but if it doesn't recover, you have a useless milotic.
  21. Banedon

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    I have to agree with LonelyNess that Dragonair does not deserve an analysis page ...

    The proof of the pudding come right from your calcs:

    Even if Aqua Tail 2HKOes the bulkiest of Rhyperiors and (the rather rare) Shuckle after a Dragon Dance ... Rhyperior would still have switched into Dragonair, lived a hit and killed it, despite Aqua Tail being 4x effective on Rhyperior. That is not impressive.

    I can see getting one Dragon Dance as difficult but possible. Dual screens will help, and you can switch in on some (preferably choiced) resisted attack. So you might be able to Dragon Dance once. Two Dragon Dances however ... that's not going to happen if your opponent is good, not with Dragonair's defenses. Because Dragonair is so frail, and because Dragonair has Shed Skin, you don't defeat it by statusing it - you plain KO it. Good players aren't going to switch Venusaur into Dragonair unless they can do something to Dragonair as it dances; instead of taking a resisted Power Whip you're more likely to face Sludge Bomb, Earthquake or maybe even Roar. You are not going to Dragon Dance twice.

    Then say the unthinkable happens and you do manage to Dragon Dance twice. DD is a deadly setup move and you should reasonably expect to sweep large portions of your opponent's team. Salamence was deadly after only one DD; what would it be if it got two? Yet nonetheless Dragonair still only 2HKOes Aggron. That is not good at all; at worst your opponent sacrifices one Pokemon to Dragonair so Aggron gets in safely, and then Aggron KOes with Head Smash.

    Here's another problem:

    But you can't predict the switch. You're Dragon Dancing on the switch remember? Milotic is going to get in as you dance, live the hit and then Ice Beam. It'll leave Milotic weakened ... but it'll also leave Dragonair dead.

    I think Dragonair simply doesn't pack enough punch. With enough team support you can give it a Dragon Dance, but you can't sweep even if you eliminate your opponent's steel Pokemon. Compare Linoone: with enough team support you can give it a Belly Drum, but after that Drum it will generally sweep, potentially an entire team even. This just isn't the case for Dragonair.
  22. DarkSlay

    DarkSlay This Wouldn't Have Happened In Romney's Smogon
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  23. Eo Ut Mortus

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    How Dragonair performs in OU is completely irrelevant to anything.

    Don't have any experience with Dragonair (although I'm skeptical) so I'll post something at a later time.
  24. shrang

    shrang Defend the Headquarters of Revolution
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    Anyway, I'm not going to dispute whether Dragonair should get an analysis page or not, this is out of my hands (Personally, I don't mind at all). Anyway, I'm going to suggest a better EV spread. You say the given EVs are used so you outspeed Swellow, but if you look carefully, there isn't much reason for doing so. This is because you have a great chance to OHKO Swellow after Stealth Rock with +1 Adamant LO Extremespeed anyway. Quick Attack won't come close to OHKOing you in return. So, I'm going to suggest 52 HP/252 Atk/204 Spe Adamant, so you outspeed +ve 105s. The only thing you are beating using Jolly that Adamant cannot is Ambipom, and I reckon Ambipom is easy enough to fix with your team (Just run Rhyperior or something), and it isn't worth losing all that much power just to beat Ambipom. Everything faster you can pretty much kill with a boosted Extremespeed if they've taken some damage anyway (Except maybe Tauros, who isn't that common).
  25. Elgoo

    Elgoo

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    Thanks Shrang. I never even ran that calc. And yeah, more power is better if you are running a priority move. Are there any higher-than-105spe Threats that extremespeed cant ohko, Id run the calcs myself but I have to get off for now, if you dont post them I will edit them in.

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