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Dragonite (Analysis)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by capefeather, May 6, 2011.

  1. capefeather

    capefeather YOU CAN'T STOP THE FORDS
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
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    lulzer's OP

    PK Gaming, Bloo and Delta 2777 QCed lulzer's analysis, but the last major QC mandate was quite a while ago and PK Gaming has stated that Parashuffler should be lower, so I think that this analysis should go through the three QCs again when I'm through with it.

    franky expressed interest in a collab, and I think that I should talk with him and QC leaders anyway about this analysis, but I haven't gotten back with them on this yet. So far, I've VMed franky and there hasn't been any reciprocation, but looking at the sets I can see why he said that the analysis should get a revamp.

    IMPORTANT: Concerning Garchomp, I'm going to "lay low" on this for a while so that other Choice Scarf users get their chance to replace Garchomp. I don't want to lower the Speed EVs too much only to have something like Flygon gain popularity. (I've replaced Garchomp mentions with mentions of Landorus and occasionally Terrakion, though, since they tend to be the most natural replacements for the purposes of the analysis content.)

    List of changes from lulzer's OP (open)
    Bulky Dragon Dance:
    - changed EVs/nature because the basis for max Speed was flawed
    - Offensive Dragon Dance is now its own set
    - emphasized anti-metagame potential and Adamant Excadrill
    - heavily expanded teammate options

    Offensive Dragon Dance

    Choice Band:
    - added Earthquake and Superpower (wtf were they doing not being there)
    - not sure how to go about arranging the slashes
    - lowered Speed EVs to 176; mentioned 148 for Magnezone
    - set comments completely rewritten (it was a lot of empty content before)

    Mixed Attacker (Classic):
    - moved up below Choice Band
    - Speed EVs in AC were not explained, so they were removed (for now)
    - put Fire Punch into OO
    - slashed in a rain-oriented moveset
    - Wobbuffet speed tier mention

    Parashuffler:
    - moved below offensive sets
    - added Blissey special bulk comparison
    - added weather inducers, Ferrothorn, Rotom-W, Bronzong, Gliscor as teammates
    - emphasized Steel-types and fast Ground-types as main threats

    Tank (Rain):
    - renamed from "Rain Abuser"
    - Wobbuffet speed tier mention

    Mixed Attacker (Rain)

    Checks and Counters:
    - completely rewrote because a lot of it was empty content


    ---


    [​IMG]
    Dragonite


    [Overview]

    <p>Dragonite has had a long history in the past generations of not being quite as fearsome as Lance would have us believe. As the third generation introduced more Dragon-types, the good old original got shafted in favor of the newer, arguably more "badass"-looking Salamence and, to an extent, Flygon. In the fourth generation, Salamence's banishment to Ubers gave Dragonite a newer lease on life, though it could never achieve what its younger cousin did. However, the fifth generation has finally bestowed upon this old RBY stalwart an almost perfect supplement to its already formidable bulkMultiscaleas well as a metagame focused on bulk (as opposed to Speed) that it can easily use to its advantage.</p>

    <p>Dragonite is a very versatile anti-metagame threat that has a trick for just about every occasion. Offensively, its great Attack and good Special Attack are complemented by a huge movepool, including its obligatory Dragon-type STAB moves, Draco Meteor and Outrage; the powerful Flying-type STAB, Hurricane; and Dragon Dance to outrun just about every threat in a metagame filled with slow, bulky Pokemon. Defensively, its bulk combines with Multiscale nicely to make a stalling phazer viable. However, residual damage from the likes of Stealth Rock and sandstorm negates Multiscale, making it more difficult for Dragonite to use its bulk effectively. Despite this setback, unwary opponents may well find that Lance's bold boast that his Pokemon are "virtually indestructible" may not have been an exaggeration after all.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Bulky Dragon Dance
    move 1: Dragon Dance
    move 2: Dragon Claw / Outrage
    move 3: Fire Punch
    move 4: Roost
    item: Leftovers / Lum Berry
    ability: Multiscale
    nature: Adamant / Jolly
    EVs: 252 HP / 44 Atk / 212 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>In a metagame running rampant with frail attackers and their bulky counters, the ability to boost one's Speed and offensive capability simultaneously is a valuable asset. This set outruns Modest Choice Scarf Politoed after one Dragon Dance, and Choice Scarf Landorus after two. Dragonite's bulk allows for relatively easy setup, making it a very potent threat that can run right through the unprepared. Roost and Multiscale make a powerful combination that preserves Dragonite's HP while it is setting up or plowing through a particularly tough opponent, making the process safer and easier to pull off. Fire Punch is a great auxiliary attack to hit bulky Grass- and Steel-types harder.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Dragon Claw is usually preferred because this set appreciates every opportunity that it can get to use Roost or Dragon Dance again, but Outrage is not a bad alternative for a more aggressive take on this set. Lum Berry is an excellent alternative to Leftovers as well, because the opponent will inevitably consider trying to check Dragonite's rampage with paralysis, Toxic, or a burn, which will thus be foiled. Waterfall and Brick Break mainly hit Terrakion, Tyranitar, and Heatran, but Fire Punch tends to have better overall coverage unless Dragonite is on a rain team. ExtremeSpeed is tempting for picking off weakened threats, but it is fairly weak with this EV spread. 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe Jolly is a faster spread that, after two Dragon Dances, outpaces Adamant Excadrill in the sand and Venusaur carrying Hidden Power Fire in the sun. A much slower EV spread of 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe Careful is also possible, though at that point, Choice Scarf variants of Politoed, Terrakion, and Landorus may cause problems. Yet another possibility is Substitute, though it is difficult to fit into this moveset.</p>

    <p>Removal or prevention of Stealth Rock is highly recommended, as it will allow Dragonite to make use of Multiscale from the start and be able to set up much more easily. This can be accomplished through Rapid Spin users, such as Starmie and Hitmontop, and Magic Bounce users, such as Espeon. A teammate to set up Stealth Rock on the opponent's side is also important because this set does not have as much immediate power as some of the other, more offensive Dragonite sets, and every bit of damage helps. Revenge killers such as Excadrill, Scizor, Choice Scarf Terrakion, and Choice Scarf Landorus, as well as threats not covered by the chosen coverage move (e.g. Ferrothorn or Gliscor), can stop Dragonite's sweep cold. This makes Rotom-W a very viable partner, as it can burn Ferrothorn and scare off Terrakion, Gliscor, and Excadrill. Skarmory and Bronzong can deal with Landorus. Magnezone is yet another good partner that can trap and KO Ferrothorn and Scizor. Wish support from Blissey or Jirachi can be used to give Dragonite a "second wind" if it sustains too much damage and is forced out.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Band
    move 1: Outrage
    move 2: Fire Punch
    move 3: Dragon Claw / Waterfall
    move 4: ExtremeSpeed
    item: Choice Band
    ability: Multiscale
    nature: Adamant / Jolly
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Dragonite's gigantic attacking movepool and high Attack stat make a Choice Band set very effective and somewhat unpredictable. There are many options to place into the four moveslots, but Outrage and Fire Punch are highly recommended for the perfect type coverage (even Heatran is 2HKOed by Outrage, and Ferrothorn is OHKOed outside of rain). Dragon Claw provides an alternative STAB move that does not lock Dragonite in, while Waterfall is a useful move to add coverage in rain. Either Fire Punch or Waterfall will 2HKO Jirachi, Skarmory, and Bronzong in the appropriate weather. ExtremeSpeed rounds out the set to pick off weakened faster threats; Latios and Latias, for example, do not require much damage for the KO. This set is also very good at leading because it gets the opponent guessing right off the bat and threatens an OHKO on most slower Pokemon, such as Tyranitar and Ferrothorn.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The Speed EVs are maximized to tie at worst with Chandelure and opposing Dragonite. They can be lowered to 148 and still outrun Magnezone lacking a Choice Scarf, though any lower and Magnezone can just nail Dragonite with Hidden Power Ice. A Jolly nature is possible to get the jump on 252 Speed Adamant Gyarados, and maximizing Speed on top of this allows Dragonite to outrun Adamant Lucario and Timid Heatran, but the loss in power relative to Adamant is significant. Superpower is a great move to OHKO Blissey, Tyranitar, and Ferrothorn in the rain, but since it is incompatible with Multiscale, it may be more trouble than it is worth. Aqua Tail is also tempting, but Waterfall lands the same KOs while maintaining perfect accuracy.</p>

    <p>Removing or preventing sources of residual damage, especially Stealth Rock, is very helpful for the set's hit-and-run nature. Hitmontop is an interesting Rapid Spin-using partner, due to its ability to KO Excadrill and Terrakion with Fake Out followed by Mach Punch. Stealth Rock on the opponent's side of the field is also very helpful for the switches that this Dragonite will cause. This set greatly appreciates paralysis support from the likes of Jirachi, Ferrothorn, Thundurus, or Whimsicott; the former two can also switch into priority attacks, such as Scizor's Bullet Punch. Wish support from Blissey or Jirachi is also appreciated if it can be afforded. The destruction of Ground- and Steel-types with prediction can open the opponent up to assaults from other attackers such as Scizor, Landorus, Latios and Thundurus. Revenge killers, such as Excadrill and Latios, can be handled using the appropriate counters, such as Rotom-W for the former and Jirachi for the latter.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Mixed Attacker (Classic)
    move 1: Draco Meteor
    move 2: Fire Blast
    move 3: Superpower
    move 4: ExtremeSpeed / Roost
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Inner Focus
    nature: Rash / Mild
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 SpA / 4 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Gone are the days in which Dragonite had to make use of its mixed attacking prowess to separate itself from Salamence, but the old "MixNite" wallbreaker can still rip holes in the opposing team with its excellent offensive stats and coverage. Draco Meteor is a nasty surprise to foes expecting a Dragon Dance sweep, and is backed up by Fire Blast. Superpower is for Heatran, Blissey, and Tyranitar, though it should be noted that Superpower is unobtainable with Multiscale. ExtremeSpeed can be used to finish off weakened foes and sweepers, but Roost greatly extends Dragonite's staying power. This set can also lead fairly well, especially with ExtremeSpeed, forcing the opponent into a guessing game right from the start and picking off opposing leads.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>This set can run one of several natures. Generally, a Special Attack boosting nature (e.g. Rash, Mild, or Quiet) is recommended to power up Draco Meteor, but an Attack boosting nature (e.g. Lonely, Naughty, or Brave) is a decent option as well to power up ExtremeSpeed a bit more. Some EVs can be invested into Speed to outrun threats like Magnezone and Politoed, in which case it should be noted that 108 Attack EVs and an Attack boosting nature are needed to OHKO 252 HP / 252 Def Bold Blissey with Superpower. If using a Speed-reducing nature, having 28 Speed EVs is a good idea to outrun Timid Wobbuffet.</p>

    <p>Teams that require a diverse offensive wallbreaker will greatly appreciate this set. This set will tend to lure in and destroy opposing Steel-types such as Ferrothorn, Bronzong, and Skarmory, which the likes of Scizor, Landorus, Latios, and Thundurus can exploit. In return, Dragonite greatly appreciates Rapid Spin support and removal of sandstorm through Ninetales, Politoed, or Tornadus or Thundurus running Rain Dance. Hitmontop can serve the role of Rapid Spin user while keeping Excadrill and Terrakion in check. Bulky Steel-types such as Jirachi, Ferrothorn, and Heatran can be very helpful for switching into priority moves such as Scizor's Bullet Punch. Wish support from Blissey or Jirachi can be of great help as well, especially if Dragonite elects not to use Roost.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Parashuffler
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Thunder Wave
    move 3: Roost
    move 4: Dragon Tail
    ability: Multiscale
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Careful
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set aims to maximize Multiscale's utility by paralyzing opponents to make Dragonite's Roost go first. This makes Dragonite very difficult to KO; to put things into perspective, a Dragonite at full HP with the listed EV spread has about 16% more special bulk than 252 HP / 0 SpD Blissey does. Combined with the temporary loss of its Flying type during a Roost, even Ice-type attacks can fail to deal a significant amount of damage.</p>

    <p>The main idea is to paralyze the opponent and stall with Roost until the opponent skips its turn, at which point Dragonite can use Substitute or Dragon Tail while taking minimal damage at worst. The paralysis that Dragonite spreads also serves as a lingering mark on the opponent that the rest of the team can exploit. Though Ground-types are immune to Thunder Wave, the vast majority of them are slower than Dragonite, anyway (notable exceptions include Excadrill, Landorus, and Gliscor). The main danger lies in running out of Dragon Tail PP, which renders the set far less useful.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>One could run 176 Spe EVs to outrun Breloom and set up a Substitute before the Spore. However, Breloom is not too common, and the bulk in the original EV spread is a huge part of how this set works.</p>

    <p>This set works best on teams with defensive leanings that appreciate the phazing and paralysis support that Dragonite brings. To help Dragonite in its role, Rapid Spin can be very helpful, as can removal of sandstorm through rain and sun inducers, such as Ninetales, Politoed, Tornadus, and Thundurus (the latter two through Rain Dance). Hitmontop in particular can double as a check to Terrakion and Excadrill. Conversely, residual damage on the opponent is highly recommended to get the most out of Dragon Tail and Roost stalling. This can be achieved through entry hazards or Leech Seed; Ferrothorn in particular has Stealth Rock, Spikes, and Leech Seed (though only two may be run at a time), as well a great complementary typing. Whimsicott can also run Leech Seed, as well as use Stun Spore to paralyze faster Ground-types, though it is helpless against a Landorus behind a Substitute. Jellicent is a particularly appealing partner due to its abilities to spinblock, burn opponents, and switch into Ice-type moves and Scald.</p>

    <p>Steel-types can be particularly bothersome to this set. Excadrill is especially concerning because it is both immune to Thunder Wave and fast enough to hit Dragonite hard with Rock Slide. Other faster Ground-types can also pose problems; in particular, Gliscor can Taunt Dragonite and set up a Swords Dance. Some good teammates to check these threats include Gliscor, Bronzong, and Rotom-W. Rotom-W in particular has a great complementary type combination for Dragonite, having only Grass as a weakness and resisting Ice.</p>

    <p>A very defensive team will find Wish and Heal Bell support very rewarding. If Dragonite eventually sustains heavy damage and is forced out, Wish could put it back on its feet. Both paralysis and poison are terrible for this set, making Heal Bell or Aromatherapy very much appreciated.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Offensive Dragon Dance
    move 1: Dragon Dance
    move 2: Dragon Claw / Outrage
    move 3: Fire Punch
    move 4: ExtremeSpeed / Earthquake / Roost
    item: Life Orb / Leftovers
    ability: Multiscale
    nature: Adamant / Jolly
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>In the past, Offensive Dragon Dance Dragonite was frequently shoved aside in favor of the faster Salamence, but Multiscale has changed this paradigm somewhat. The Speed difference is also less of an issue, as there are so few fast threats in the OU metagame, and Dragonite can outrun most of them. Although this set is generally riskier than a bulky Dragon Dance set, it is still fairly easy to set up, thanks to Multiscale boosting Dragonite's bulk. The given EV spread outruns Modest Choice Scarf Politoed after one Dragon Dance and Choice Scarf Pokémon up to base 107 Speed after two. Dragon Claw is the main STAB move, but Outrage is a strong alternative that can 2HKO Heatran, essentially giving Fire Punch perfect coverage with it. This set also has a very powerful ExtremeSpeed that can pick off faster Pokemon such as Choice Scarf Landorus, Venusaur in the sun, and Thundurus attempting to use Thunder Wave. If Outrage is being used, Earthquake may be a better alternative to ExtremeSpeed to OHKO Heatran and Jirachi rather than locking Dragonite into an Outrage. Roost is a good option as well to increase Dragonite's longevity.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Waterfall is a better option than Fire Punch on rain teams, while Brick Break is consistent in all weather conditions, but is not as powerful as Fire Punch or Waterfall in their respective weather conditions. The Speed EVs are maximized to attempt to tie with Chandelure and opposing Dragonite; a Jolly nature also outruns Adamant Excadrill in the sand after two Dragon Dances.</p>

    <p>Rapid Spin support is essential to make the best use of Multiscale while Dragonite is setting up, especially because it will also be suffering Life Orb recoil. This set will also cause some switches, making Stealth Rock very helpful. Rotom-W is a great defensive complement, easily countering the likes of Choice Scarf Terrakion, Excadrill, and Scizor. Bronzong and Skarmory can deal with Choice Scarf Terrakion, Excadrill, and Landorus, while Magnezone can trap and terminate Ferrothorn and Scizor.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Tank (Rain)
    move 1: Hurricane
    move 2: Thunder
    move 3: Brick Break / Surf
    move 4: Roost
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Multiscale
    nature: Quiet / Modest
    EVs: 224 HP / 252 SpA / 32 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Although Dragonite is often used as a physical attacker, a primarily special attacker is a great alternative thanks to a wide special movepool off of a base 100 Special Attack, including the powerful STAB Hurricane. Multiscale facilitates a specially offensive tank strategy very well, reducing the damage that Dragonite takes at full HP. This set is designed to be used in the rain to make use of Hurricane and Thunder at perfect accuracy, made all the better by the former's 30% confusion chance and the latter's 30% paralysis chance. To combat sandstorm, Brick Break can be used against Tyranitar, while Surf hits Ground-types such as Excadrill and Gliscor on the switch.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The reason for a Quiet nature is that Dragonite thrives on its bulk and should hit Tyranitar as hard as it can. The Speed EVs in this case are for outrunning Timid Wobbuffet while lowering Stealth Rock damage by one point. A Rash nature is a good alternative if one does not mind the Defense reduction. If using Surf instead, this is not an issue, so Modest is perfectly fine. Dragon Pulse is stronger than Thunder in general, but Thunder offers a 30% paralysis probability, gets neutral coverage against Steel-types and Tyranitar, and strikes down Jellicent. Dragon Tail is an option for phazing.</p>

    <p>This set runs into problems in weather conditions other than rain. Sunlight especially can pose a problem, reducing the accuracy of both Hurricane and Thunder to 50%, which should be considered when choosing between Thunder and Dragon Pulse. This makes entry hazards very appealing, as Ninetales will be punished on every switch-in. Jellicent only really worries about Toxic and Encore from Politoed, both of which can be remedied by Taunt. This set also dislikes defensive Steel-types, such as Bronzong and Ferrothorn; Dragonite fails to 2HKO the latter with Hurricane without some prior damage. This makes Substitute Magnezone a viable partner to set up on Ferrothorn until it can KO it.</p>

    <p>Politoed support is obvious; a Choice Specs variant in particular can be helpful for breaking through defensive opponents that this Dragonite can't crack. This set greatly appreciates Rapid Spin support; Hitmontop can serve this role, as well as functioning as a check to Excadrill, Terrakion, and Blissey. Bulky Steel-types such as Jirachi, Ferrothorn, and Heatran can be very helpful for switching into priority moves, such as Scizor's Bullet Punch. Wish from Blissey or Jirachi can be of great help as well, especially if Dragonite does not run Roost. Counters to Blissey, such as Conkeldurr, will be needed once the opponent figures out that this set has nothing to beat Blissey.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Mixed Attacker (Rain)
    move 1: Hurricane
    move 2: Aqua Tail
    move 3: ExtremeSpeed
    move 4: Roost / Brick Break
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Multiscale
    nature: Rash / Quiet
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 SpA / 4 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>A different take on the classic "MixNite", this set runs on Hurricane and rain-boosted Aqua Tail to make its mark. The main advantage of this set is that it does not rely on a STAB that is weakened after every use, and with enough prior damage, can 2HKO specially defensive Ferrothorn with Hurricane. This set boasts a large amount of staying power that the other common wallbreaker for rain teams, Tornadus, lacks. Aqua Tail 2HKOes Jirachi and Blissey in the rain, as well as any Tyranitar attempting to cut off Dragonite's power source. The set also uses both ExtremeSpeed and Roost, the former being a very powerful priority move that hits the likes of Latios and Thundurus very hard, and the latter helping to boost Dragonite's longevity greatly with Multiscale. However, Brick Break is a good alternative to hit Tyranitar, Blissey, and Ferrothorn harder, especially in case the former decides to try to beat Dragonite with Ice Beam.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The choice of nature can vary greatly, though a Special Attack boosting nature (e.g. Rash, Mild, or Quiet) is preferred to give Hurricane the power that it needs to put the hurt on Ferrothorn and similar opponents. One can invest some EVs into Speed to outrun threats like Magnezone and Politoed if needed. If using a Speed-reducing nature, such as Quiet, one should run 28 Speed EVs to outpace Timid Wobbuffet.</p>

    <p>Rain teams that find Tornadus too frail for their purposes would do well to use Dragonite as their wallbreaker. Aqua Tail in the rain has 90% of the power of a super effective Fire Punch outside of the rain and the sun, so it will deal brutal damage to Steel-type switch-ins such as Bronzong and Skarmory. This can then expose holes for other offensive Pokemon such as Scizor, Landorus, Latios, and Thundurus. Rapid Spin aids Dragonite's use of Multiscale greatly, making Forretress, Starmie, and Hitmontop good choices for the team. This set will need backup against faster Pokemon and priority moves such as Scizor's Bullet Punch. To this end, Politoed could run a Choice Scarf set to check Excadrill, and bulky Steel-types such as Jirachi, Ferrothorn, and Skarmory are highly recommended due to their great defensive synergy with Dragonite. Jirachi can provide paralysis support and pass Wish, while Ferrothorn and Skarmory can lay Spikes, which will help Dragonite defeat opposing Ferrothorn.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Dragonite is simply so versatile that many different variants of the existing sets are possible. It also has an extremely large non-attacking movepool, containing moves such as Agility, Heal Bell, and Haze. However, many of these are incompatible with Multiscale, including Heal Bell. Agility is mostly overkill for boosting Speed in this metagame, and is hardly worth the lack of an Attack boost. Fire Punch may be tempting on the mixed attacker sets to hit specially defensive Ferrothorn harder and to retain a powerful Fire-type move after Draco Meteor is used, but its advantage is low, and Fire Punch is a contact move, which means that Dragonite will suffer damage from Iron Barbs.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Dragonite is so versatile that one can forget about finding a surefire counter at the outset. However, fast Ground-types and bulky Steel-types, such as Jirachi, Excadrill, Landorus, and Scizor, are fairly good checks and revenge killers, particularly to the Parashuffler set. The Parashuffler set is also vulnerable to Taunt, which locks Dragonite into Dragon Tail. In general, Dragonite abhors status ailments and residual damage of all sorts. This makes Tyranitar and Hippowdon great assets for combating it, as both have Sand Stream and Stealth Rock to make Multiscale more difficult to use.</p>

    <p>A few defensive Pokemon deal with Dragonite fairly well. Cresselia is a good check for most Dragonite sets, but it has a hard time with the Parashuffler set unless it can catch it outside of a Substitute, or if Cresselia is the last Pokemon. Hippowdon and Skarmory are good checks to Dragon Dance variants, but they do not deal with other sets so well due to phazing, special attacks, or sheer power.</p>

    <p>Cloyster and Haxorus deserve special mentions. While it is not advisable for either Pokemon to switch directly into Dragonite, Cloyster can take a physical attack from Dragonite, use Shell Smash, and start a sweep with Icicle Spear, which hits through Multiscale. Haxorus has Mold Breaker and an extremely high 147 base Attack, which means that it will deal very heavy damage to Dragonite with Outrage, ignoring Multiscale.</p>
  2. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed HOMERUN, CABRONES
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2009
    Messages:
    2,636
    Just wondering: is the [SPECIAL MENTIONS] tag actually worth putting in? I know this is lulzer's skeleton and all. Dragonite can still actually survive attacks after Stealth Rock, and yes, even though the Magic Bounce users / Hitmontop seem like good team members, they really should be mentioned in a teammates AD. My opinion is that unless these three are really the best, competitively affordable teammates Dragonite absolutely has to go with, they should just get a "big mention".
  3. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,159
    Why does the Dragon Dance set use 252 HP/4 Atk/252 Spe instead of 252 HP/40 Atk/216 Spe? At +1, you would not be able to outpace max speed base 130s if you use an Adamant nature anyway, and the 40 attack EVs make quite a big difference as you gain more Dragon Dances.
  4. yee

    yee
    is a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    1,110
    Here's a true Rain abuser-

    Mixnite (Rain)
    Ability- Multi-Scale
    Nature- Quiet
    Item- Life Orb
    EVs- 228 atk, 252 spA, 28 speed
    -Hurricane
    -Aqua Tail
    -Extremespeed
    -Roost

    This is your mixed attacking Dragonite in the rain, with one layer of spikes up it can actually 2HKO specially bulky Ferrothorn, which the current set fails to do and claims to counter it. Hurricane is the main attack, resisted by Electric, Rock and Steel types and with rain's boost to water attacks Aqua Tail becomes the best coverage choice, even able to 2HKO Max HP Jirachi. It also does about 2/3 to standard Tyranitar in sandstorm. Extremespeed with this much investment in attack is even stronger than Lucario's, so you can do a load to weakened genies, Latios etc. Roost re-activates Multi-Scale so even with no investment in bulk it takes very specific and predictable attacks to take you down, attacks that a max HP Dragonite wouldn't be thrilled to take either, such as Latios's Draco Meteor, Life Orb Starmie's Ice Beam, etc. The 28 speed EVs let you outspeed Wobbuffet so it can't Encore your Extremespeed or Roost, which also happens to be where standard Skarmory and Jellicent roam, both 2HKOed by Hurricane so investing more EVs can be useful.

    As for the teammates section, be sure to mention Forretress for obvious reasons.
  5. capefeather

    capefeather YOU CAN'T STOP THE FORDS
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    Yeah, I haven't gotten a chance to go through the entire analysis and reorganize it. That will happen soon.
  6. lulzer

    lulzer

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2010
    Messages:
    78
    Thanks for covering me. You know... college can make you go nuts sometimes.

    Just giving a penny here, put the good old DD EV spread with 252 HP / 40 Atk / 216~220 Spe, 252 Spe won't accomplish a single thing at all so those 36 points are just wasted.

    Talk with the QC peeps about that and make the change if possible please.
  7. PlainN

    PlainN

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2010
    Messages:
    93
    Drat! I really wanted to take over this analysis if Lulzer was retiring from it, but I never got the memo =(.

    Anyway, I honestly hate the 252 HP/ 32 Atk/ 212 Spe distribution for the DD set. That thing is way too underpowered even after a DD and the HP EVs provide marginal help in surviving ice attacks. I really don't like the fact that you need 2 DDs just to be effective. I'd much rather prefer either the current EVs or 40 HP/ 252 Atk/ 212 Spe. With that distribution, I find myself getting 2 DDs just as easily (or as hard) than with the bulky EVs using the standard "Bulky DD" move set.
  8. Husky

    Husky

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2010
    Messages:
    344
    When using Dragonite in the Rain, I wonder no one (even in the old thread) came up with Aqua Jet so far... Sure, it technically has 'just' 60 Power, factoring in rain, but it's still quite powerful so one get another spot for a coverage move. Brick Break can demolish incoming Tyranitar (to cut off Rain) but I prefer running Thunder.

    My Rain D-Nite looks like this:

    Mixed Rain-Nite
    Ability: Multi-Scale
    Item: Expert Belt
    Nature: Rash
    EVs: 112 Atk / 144 SpA / 252 Spe
    - Hurricane
    - Aqua Jet
    - Thunder / Brick Break
    - Outrage / Roost

    EV spread is old gen4 Mixnite spread, maybe outdated by now but it worked for me so far. Outrage, even in a metagame full of Steel-types, is rather effective and good late game move, but Roost again helps to use Multi-Scale more often. Expert Belt gives an okay boost on super effective moves but more important: You don't lose 10% of its max.HP so Multi-Scale don't get ruined by attacking on your own-
  9. yee

    yee
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    Aqua Jet was looked at. It's power is just really pathetic, with expert belt even max attack Adamant Dragonite only does 73.7-87% to no investment Excadrill in the rain.
  10. capefeather

    capefeather YOU CAN'T STOP THE FORDS
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    So I've written everything except Dragon Dance and Mixed Attacker (Rain). I'll get to consulting QC about this since a complete redo was suggested in this thread for the latter and altered EVs were suggested for the former.

    EDIT: OK what the hell. yee, you claim that your set can 2HKO Ferrothorn while the listed Mixed Attacker (Rain) can't, and yet it lacks a super effective move, which the listed set has. Aqua Tail and ExtremeSpeed have nonetheless been added. Also, Super Mario Bro is right about Adamant not outpacing 130s, sooooo idk what happened there. I've changed the EVs to 252 HP / 80 Atk / 176 Spe to account for this (Adamant and Jolly outrun neutral and positive nature 130s respectively).
  11. yee

    yee
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    Max spA LO Hurricane vs. 252/208 sassy Ferrothorn- 156-184 (44.3-52.3%)-Possible with SR, requires SR and a layer of spikes to assure a 2HKO against protect versions.

    0 Atk Lefties Brick Break vs 252/48 def sassy ferrothorn- 106-126 (30.1-35.8%)- Not dying quickly, especially if runs Leech Seed and Protect.

    I think the two rain sets should be seperated, the previous version with the listed spread and Hurricane/Thunder/Brick Break/Roost is ideal for preserving Multi-Scale while dishing out good damage. However, the one I listed is a lot different, its more like MixNite which is built to run through stall, between the invested Hurricane and Aqua Tail you can 2HKO most all pokemon in rain. The attack investment allows you to actually revenge kill things with Extremespeed.

    I dont understand why you have Aqua Tail and Extremespeed listed on the current rain set, with no attack investment Aqua Tail is less powerful than Surf and isn't gonna threaten any Hurricane sponges, for those your better of hitting them with a Fighting move or attempting to paralyze them with Thunder on the switch (things like Jirachi and Rotom-W) . Extremespeed doesn't even 2HKO the genies with no investment and Roost is so much more valuable. Superpower only seems useful for a full-on OHKO on Tyranitar and Excadrill because Chansey will outstall that with no investment, and while Blissey can't switch in she can outstall you (barring a crit) as Superpower lowers your attack.

    Ill let some numbers do the talking, to show that Dragonite deserves a mixed attacking set in the rain besides one as a bulky pivot that uses Multi-Scale.

    My set's Aqua Tail vs. standard max HP Jirachi- 47.5-55.9%, pretty much guranteed to 2HKO with a layer of spikes. All the bulky set can aim to do is paralyze it on the switch with Thunder.

    My set's Extremespeed vs. 4 def Thundurus/Tornadus- 51.2-60.2%, you have a realistic chance to revenge kill them if things get out of hand. The listed set will only do 33.1-39.1%, and I cannot think of a case where that weak of a priority move would be more useful than Hurricane (rain nites main attraction, Thunder's paralysis chance/coverage, a fighting move to kill Tar/Excadrill, or Roost to activate Multi-Scale, those are all pretty much required and Extremspeed doesnt even deserve a mention on that set IMO.

    Overall, the first set should look like this-

    Multi Scale, Modest, Leftovers, 252 HP, 252 spA, 4 filler
    Hurricane
    Thunder
    Brick Break
    Roost

    -Easier to fit on teams, abuses Multi Scale and can threaten Hurricane switch ins with paralysis (Rotom-W, Jirachi, Bronzong etc.), as well as Tyranitar. Multi Scale is preserved in sand through Leftovers if you run a spinner so it can stay alive against things like Excadrill if it needs to.

    -The mix set is focused on the raw firepower and coverage Hurricane/Aqua Tail give and has the power to 2HKO things like Latios with Hurricane+Extremespeed. You could list Superpower as on option over Roost on this set to further improve coverage and make it possible to 2HKO the bulkiest of Chansey.
  12. RaikouLover

    RaikouLover

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    I will try to give some more helpful suggestions this time. For Choice Bander, it needs to be cleaned up:

    name: Choice Band
    move 1: Outrage
    move 2: ExtremeSpeed
    move 3: Fire Punch / Aqua Tail
    move 4: Dragon Claw / Superpower
    item: Choice Band
    ability: Multi-Scale
    nature: Adamant
    EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe

    Here is a rundown of the moves:

    Outrage: MUST be on the set primary move no if ands or buts or slashes. Same with Extremespeed.

    Fire Punch is your best coverage move. It 1-2HKOs every steel type. Point, blank, period.

    Aqua Tail is good for Rain. Aqua Tail + Fire Punch can be used together, as Aqua Tail is a good neutral move and hits Heatran, who resists all the moves on the set. HOWEVER, Heatran can't switch into an Outrage at all... so its not as crucial. So Aqua Tail is a good option slashed with Fire Punch.

    Superpower / Brick Break Superpower is better, but you sack Multi-Scale to use it. You really don't need this other than for strong neutral coverage and its ability to OHKO Tyranitar, Heatran, Ferrothorn, Chansey, etc. off the bat. If you plan on using Draggy in the Rain and have to opt for Aqua Tail, you NEED Superpower to handle Ferrothorn. Brick Break in general kinda sucks, thats why

    Dragon Claw is probably the best 4th move. Times you want to kill shit and not sack yourself into Outrage. Dragon Claw doesn't disappoint.



    Also, there NEEDS NEEDS NEEDS to be an offensive Dragon Dance set. Dragonite has the safest stat boost of all the Dragons, so an all out power set is warrented.
  13. capefeather

    capefeather YOU CAN'T STOP THE FORDS
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    Oh oops, I somehow failed to see Leftovers on the listed set vs Life Orb on yee's set. Sorry about that.

    I wonder if yee's moveset could just be slashed onto the second Mixed Attacker and the two Mixed Attackers could just be renamed.
  14. prem

    prem failed abortion
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    because its a 4th gen move tutor, that doesn't work. you either need brick break or aqua tail or something of the sort
  15. lulzer

    lulzer

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    If things go on like they are, this will need to pass QC again and we will have over 9000 sets with the add of mix rain, offensive DD, OHKO one pokemon and fails at all else etc...

    The DD sets run Adamant and 216 EVs for the sole reason of outspeeding and OHKO ScarfChomp after 2 DD, with 220 Spe Adamant Excadrill is outsped after 2 boosts.

    On the rain sets, don't use Modest when running Brick Break. You need that to OHKO TTar and end that sand, instead go with something on the likes of Rash since you probably will have someone to absorb Ice Beams on a rain team.

    252 Atk Adamant holding a Choice Band is almost a given OHKO on Ferrothorn with Fire Punch outside the rain, no sun needed.
    Aqua Tail on rain teams seems good tho,but I'd stick with Waterfall for the accuracy.
    And for the 1000000th time, no need for Superpower when using a band, you wont OHKO 252/252 Bold Chansey unless she took previous damage. Brick Break will do the same 2HKO if Chansey doesn't Wish on the first one while being able to keep Multi Scale and OHKO any TTar while denting anything that doesn't resist it.
  16. capefeather

    capefeather YOU CAN'T STOP THE FORDS
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    @ above: I hadn't made any new sets until now with Offensive DD becoming its own set...

    Code:
    232619 <%Snunch> set orderings dont really matter atm
    232627 <%Snunch> the parashuffle dnite set is first lol
    232701 <yondie> which makes sense
    232706 <yondie> i use that set with spikes support
    232707 <yondie> its godly
    232711 <capefeather> I thought that was how it should be
    232719 <capefeather> QC mandated that ordering
    232752 <%Snunch> personally ive always found it to be a waste of space... incredibly easy to deal with once identified
    232804 <%PKGaming> CBnite & DD are better imo
    232812 <%Snunch> that too
    232816 <capefeather> then again said mandate was from march 5
    232818 <%PKGaming> at the time, Parashuffler was the new "hot thing" but we can definitely change it 
    232922 <capefeather> I've actually been wondering whether offensive DD should have a set separate from bulky DD
    232922 <yondie> para shuffler
    232927 <%Snunch> im kinda surprised it even made it past qc, but some good people do use it
    232929 <yondie> is good
    232943 <yondie> maybe you haven't used it well, or played someone good using it
    So basically I think that this should go through the 3 QCs again when I'm through with the last few changes because the last major QC mandate was over two months ago and the guy who posted the mandate has contradicted it. This means that I'll be a bit more liberal in changing content, though I'll still maintain the change list.

    EDIT: I investigated lulzer's claims. With no investment + Leftovers, neutral Brick Break deals 63.4% - 75.2% to Tyranitar. Not a OHKO. I suppose the 1/9 extra damage is still good, but this statement is still shaky. (I know it wasn't explicitly said that it does OHKO Tyranitar, but still.) Also, Superpower may not OHKO Chansey, but it does OHKO the far more common Blissey (111.8% - 131.7%), so I'd definitely say that it's worth it.
  17. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

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    Haha, here we go with the set arguments again. Fun stuff, really. Bloo was absolutely right about this analysis being important.

    At this point I think we should still aim to not make a ton of sets, but the revamping of this analysis is necessary. Let's not forget that AC and OO are our friends. I think nearly all statements everyone has made should be considered. The best variations should be spotlighted, but the rest should be mentioned and left to the preference of the team builders. Just my opinion.
  18. lulzer

    lulzer

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    Yep... here we go again!

    I'm on somewhat a break from my tests so I'll drop around once every two or so days and see how DNite is going haha. Many stuff coming back again, such as blasting Parashuffle away and spliting the DD sets, sooner or later peeps will claim that MixNite is brutal and should be the first set.

    @capefeather BB does the job on Blissey too, if she attack you with Ice Beam, she wont KO and you get the 2HKO, if she doesn't attack, well... once you crit or she decides to Ice Beam, she's dead too, unless you took previous dmg, then Superpower is the better one. But that's just me being totally a Multi Scale nazi...
  19. PlainN

    PlainN

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    Having used nothing but Offensive DD on Dnite in a while, I can say that it's primary advantage is the ability to (easily) get two DDs with no defense investment. As I wrote on the Dnite post on the main forum, Multi-scale is different than Intimidate (from Salamence, Offense DD's greatest competitor) because it doesn't activate immediately. Thus, you force a lot of situations like this:

    Turn 1: Send Dnite in on a clean field after your own Pokemon is KO'd. Use DD while opponent switches out to counter.
    Turn 2: Opponent counterattacks and activates Multiscale (keeping you alive) while you DD again.

    If it was Salamence, the Intimidate ability would have already been wasted on a Pokemon that was going to switch out anyway, and thus guaranteeing it only one DD. Granted, Intimidate is a much better ability when it comes into switching into an attack and forcing switches. Dragonite cannot guarantee the double DD if it switches into anything that does direct damage since Multiscale would be broken. Thus, both Pokemon have their niche and to say one classes another at this point is illogical.

    On another note, Aqua Tail/Waterfall on the CB set is interesting and something I haven't thought about. It seems just perfect in patching up the holes left by Outrage/DClaw and Firepunch (namely Heatran, Gliscor, and T-tar).
  20. lulzer

    lulzer

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    Dragonite is an anti-meta pokemon just like Heatran was last gen, every single change on the flavor of the month will cause massive change on Dragonite.

    As an example let's say the top threat is ScarfChomp, there will be massive usage of CB Outrage or DDNite variants. Then people packing ScarfChomps will have to use X to counter Dragonite, DNite will be re-armed in order to bait and kill those counters, while still able to KO Chomp. Just like Taunt Heatran appeared in order to kill Blissey last gen, while still being able to KO Scizor.

    What I'm trying to say with this is the following, there's no way a DNite analysis will be updated and not in need of a revamp for more than a month. Just look what the QC personal said about the Parashuffler after what? 2 weeks? First it was godly, now it's meh and situational (tho very powerful on the right team and scenario).

    You got the most insane analysis possible capefeather, I'm sorry for leaving this in your care.
  21. capefeather

    capefeather YOU CAN'T STOP THE FORDS
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    The main problem that I have with Brick Break on the Choice Band set is that it's weaker than even a -1 Superpower. I mean, yeah, there's the Def drop, but I just think that Blissey is better off dead than dying...

    I should really consult QC on this analysis at this point. I don't think that having six sets is that big a deal, though...
  22. Bugbot

    Bugbot

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    1- What are the 220 and 224 Speed EVs for?
    216 barely outspeeds Scarfchomp after 2 DDs, the other EVs basically are wasted.
    (Why the hell was the spread changed so often? 252 HP / 40 Atk / 216 Spe and 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe always were better spreads from the start...)

    2- Rename "Special Attacker (Rain)" to "Rain Abuser"
    (like Tornadus's main set name, to keep consistency).

    3- Adding an extra 4 EVs in Attack gives an extra Attack point after a DD
    345 at +1 = 517
    346 at +1 = 519
    Dropping an HP EV and dumping it into Attack could be a better idea, but it somewhat "ruins" Roost.

    4- Lastly, explain in your analysis why Salamence doesn't outclass Dragonite as an Offensive Dragon Dancer.
  23. capefeather

    capefeather YOU CAN'T STOP THE FORDS
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    1. and 4. ...Yeah, I'll get to the EV explanations (and actually it's already explained in the bullets that 220 outruns Adamant Excadrill after +2...).

    2. I happen to hate names of the form "X Abuser". Like, I really, really hate them. They make the sets sound like dirty tactics.

    3. Not that any of the Dragonite sets have 345/346 Attack, but practically speaking, why do the extra two points matter?
  24. Bugbot

    Bugbot

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    1. Then I recommend unslashing Adamant (since Jolly is the only nature that benefits from the 220 EVs) and make an AC mention for an Adamant set using 216 Speed EVs.

    2. It's just for consistency. It may sound evil, but it really isn't that bad ! :P

    3. They are free points. Free points usually mean the EV spreads are well built. Then again, it's only a point, so it's your call...
  25. prem

    prem failed abortion
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    these evs dont add up properly. either need 240 spa or 24 speed

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