Dragonite (Substitute + Dragon Dance)

AccidentalGreed

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#1
Bulky Dragon Dance said:
Yet another possibility is Substitute, though it is difficult to fit into this moveset.
It's not anymore.

This has been mentioned multiple times around the DST threads, and has received surprisingly good criticism ever since it was passed around. Yeah, I know. Being a mono-attacker sucks, but I got around with Togekiss and Latias. IMO, it deserves its own spot on the analysis.

Status: Copyediting

QC Approvals (3/3): (PK Gaming) (Wilson46) (Delta2777)

GP Approvals (2/2): (Calm Pokemaster) (New World Order)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Gotta make my mind up, which set should I taaaaake

[SET]
name: Substitute + Dragon Dance
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Dragon Dance
move 3: Dragon Claw
move 4: Roost
item: Leftovers
ability: Multiscale
nature: Careful
evs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 16 SpD / 160 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Depending on the item or coverage moves being run on Dragonite, its standard Dragon Dance sets are often thwarted by the appropriate counters, many of which are unfortunately common in the metagame. For example, if Dragonite holds Leftovers without some form of protection (such as Safeguard or Substitute), it's prone to status, while without it, Multiscale is negated by sandstorm and hail. This set, however, aims to overcome the dragon's usual issues by using Substitute in place of a secondary coverage move, enabling Dragonite to block status, scout for checks, and set up more easily than ever. Using Substitute also abolishes the pressure of choosing the appropriate item. Dragonite is therefore permitted to use Leftovers, Roost, and Dragon Claw freely, making it an extremely self-sufficient stallbreaker and attacker when its very few counters are crippled or eliminated.</p>

<p>The primary objective of this set is to set up and outstall the opposing team by using Dragon Dance, Roost, and Substitute, attacking once Dragonite accumulates enough boosts or whenever necessary. Dragon Dance's Speed boost, in conjunction with Substitute, allows Dragonite to outrun and set up on potential status users. This is made even better when Roost comes into play, activating Multiscale and minimizing the damage dealt by common status users; this gives Dragonite even more opportunities to set up and sweep. Although it may seem ineffective to use a single attack, Dragon Claw grants great mono-attacking coverage, and is only resisted by Steel-types. Even then, most Steel-types can be overcome by proper setup, eliminating the need to use Earthquake or Fire Punch.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Dragonite thrives on defensive investment due to its ability to set up with Substitute and Roost. The given EV spread is a specialized formula; the defensive investment enables Dragonite's Substitutes to survive Iron Head from Jirachi with 0 Atk EVs. With the given Speed EVs, Dragonite outspeeds positive-natured base 110s after a boost. Additionally, Attack investment is not necessary since Dragonite can set up multiple boosts. With a Careful nature, Dragonite can set up with ease on random special attacks, though other natures are optimal if Dragonite needs more physical bulk (Impish) or wishes to outspeed its neutral-natured maximum Speed counterpart (Jolly). Another EV spread to consider is 252 HP / 56 SpD / 200 Spe, which grants Dragonite more special bulk in addition to the ability to outrun positive-natured base 115s after one boost. This in turn makes Dragonite an easier target for walls with physical attacks, so keep in mind the tradeoffs of each spread.</p>

<p>Although this set is more self-sufficient than other similar sets, it still needs the correct support to bypass counters and function more easily. As far as dedicated counters are concerned, Skarmory is a huge issue due to its high Defense, resistance to Dragon Claw, and access to Whirlwind to phaze Dragonite out. Other Steel-types and physical walls can be bypassed with the correct setup sequence, though there are some Pokemon that can overcome Dragonite through other means, such as Perish Song users, Ice Punch Metagross, or Unaware Quagsire. Generally speaking, before sending Dragonite out to sweep, ensure that defensive threats such as the aforementioned ones are eliminated. Magnezone is notable for its ability to trap and eliminate Steel-types, though Skarmory with Shed Shell may prove to be problematic. Rather than going with the conventional trap-and-kill route, you may simply employ Pokemon that can lure in or punch through these counters, prime examples including Choice Band Terrakion and Magic Bounce Espeon with Hidden Power Fire.</p>

<p>Rapid Spin support is not as necessary because of Substitute and Roost, but it's still appreciated to ensure Multiscale is activated from the start. An offensive Starmie is notable above all others due to its ability to use Rapid Spin, absorb status with Natural Cure, and break down physical walls that Dragonite may encounter. Dragonite, in turn, can set up on threats that wall Starmie, including but not limited to Gastrodon, Jellicent, Blissey, and Rotom-W. Forretress and Tentacruel are also good choices because of their stellar defenses, great typing, and access to entry hazards. Speaking of which, residual damage is instrumental in Dragonite's role; it will find often itself in situations where it will have to stall out certain foes before doing anything else, which applies mostly to walls such as Quagsire and Hippowdon. These foes are easily stalled out with Toxic Spikes support, which Forretress and Tentacruel can easily set up.</p>
 
#2
Use this EV spread:

252 HP / 56 SpD / 200 Spe, Careful

Drag doesn't need attack with this, its primary objective is to outstall / checkmate teams. It sweeps almost as an after thought. Its a "you wont kill me before I kill you set." 56 Special Defense is a jump point, 200 Spe outspeeds Starmie and base 115s, and the rare Scarftar after a Dragon Dance. HP is obvious.

Mention this: BURN BURN BURN. If you burn Forretress, its Gyro balls won't break your Subs and its instant checkmate. Burn Skarmory too. They wont beat you before you beat them. You can 6-0 a stall team easily with the set, or 5-0 them if you Pursuit Perish Song Celebi.
 

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#4
I suggest you use this EV Spread: 252 HP / 80 Def / 16 SDef / 160 Spd
This is the spread that Stone_Cold used on his rmt; it allows Dragonite's substo survive Jirachi's Iron Head like Mynism stated, outspeed all of the Pokemon that your current spread does, and can take special attacks much better. Attack investment isn't necessary because this Dragonite can boost multiple times easily.
 

AccidentalGreed

Sweet and bitter as chocolate.
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#5
I'll make Raikoulover's spread the main one simply for the fact that I can use Burn support, and it's overall more specially bulky. I mentioned burn support, stalling, and the other spread in the AC. More input on the EV spreads would be preferred over other comments.
 
#6
Actually, Stone_Cold's spread a lot better. Those 40 extra speed evs really don't do much and Dragonite needs to defensive EVs so that it can set up on specially defensive rachi iron heads.

QC APPROVED (1/3)
 

AccidentalGreed

Sweet and bitter as chocolate.
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
#7
Sure. Thanks for the check, but since Dragonite is boosting slowly, should it even use an Adamant nature on that set? Correct me if somebody will.

EDIT: I found out that if I use a Jolly nature with Stone_Cold's spread, it's exactly as fast as an Adamant maximum Speed Dragonite. Thoughts?
 
#8
With a Jolly nature, some notable pokemon it will outspeed are max speed Politoed, standard Gliscor, and many pokemon around the 245 mark (Jirachi, Celebi). However, with a DD boost you outspeed them anyway and it isn't too hard to pick up one. Maybe Jolly can get a mention in AC, idk.

But the set itself is good, so QC APPROVED (2/3)
 

AccidentalGreed

Sweet and bitter as chocolate.
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
#9
Thanks, Wilson.

I don't like what the Adamant nature does here, so I'll make the Careful nature the main nature so Dragonite is able to sponge Ice Beam and other random Special Attacks as well.
 

uragg

Walking the streets with you in your worn-out jeans
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#10
PLZ let it outspeed scarf landorus at +2 because that can be a really annoying (BAN ME PLEASE) it only needs a few additional speed EVs on stone's spread or maybe a jolly one would be more efficient if bumping the speed up to that
 
#11
finally someone's posting this set. @uraga, i don't think you need to outspeed scarf landorus at +2, since it's going to do like 40% to you with hp ice...
 

uragg

Walking the streets with you in your worn-out jeans
is a Contributor Alumnus
#12
nah hp ice does 52.8% - 63.2% with no invest and stone edge in sand does 68.9% - 81.3%, so it's a decently viable revenge killer that dnite is going to lose to if you somehow misplay or are forced to kill something with only 2 DDs down. maybe just mention it in OO or something but i know i've lost matches because of landorus outpacing
 

AccidentalGreed

Sweet and bitter as chocolate.
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
#13
Yeah, Jolly nature's in AC. Again, Careful nature's only there because Dragonite has to sponge random Special Attacks, but Jolly achieves the same speed that Adamant maximum Speed Dragonite reaches, which is a plus in some situations (like with Landorus)
 
#14
I'm amazed that SubDD Dragonite is not on site.

I think that Infernape and Conkeldurr make fine teammates to SubDD Dragonite for their ability to scare out Ferrothorn, Skarmory and other pesky steels. Otherwise this thing should be on site ^^.
 
#15
Actually, Stone_Cold's spread a lot better. Those 40 extra speed evs really don't do much and Dragonite needs to defensive EVs so that it can set up on specially defensive rachi iron heads.
Actually, I think we are forgetting about 2 important mons - Starmie (Life Orb Ice Beam), and SpecsTornadus (it outspeeds you by a point). I think those two are more important than Jirachi because you can just burn it, lol. Starmie really is the big deal I don't want to switch out of it do you?? I used the slower spread first and lost a match because I couldn't outspeed starmie and kill it...
 
#16
I'm amazed that SubDD Dragonite is not on site.

I think that Infernape and Conkeldurr make fine teammates to SubDD Dragonite for their ability to scare out Ferrothorn, Skarmory and other pesky steels. Otherwise this thing should be on site ^^.
You mean Heatran right ? About the stats, 244 speed is good to reach (192 evs +0) to outspeed most non-scarfed mons and ScarfTar at +1. The higher you want to reach would only be 249 (set-up a sub against standard SDef Jirachi and outspeeds Scarfed Landorus at +2). I also don't see the point in using Jolly nature. This Dragonite set needs defensives evs and since his def/sdef stats are bigger than his speed one, that would be a waste of evs and outspeeding ScarfToed is kinda useless on such a defensive set.
 
#19
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It's not anymore.

This has been mentioned multiple times around the DST threads, and has received surprisingly good criticism ever since it was passed around. Yeah, I know. Being a mono-attacker sucks, but I got around with Togekiss and Latias. IMO, it deserves its own spot on the analysis.

Status: Copyediting

QC Approvals (3/3): (PK Gaming) (Wilson46) (Delta2777)

GP Approvals (0/2):
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Gotta make my mind up, which set should I taaaaake

[SET]
name: Substitute + Dragon Dance
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Dragon Dance
move 3: Dragon Claw
move 4: Roost
item: Leftovers
ability: Multiscale
nature: Careful
evs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 16 SpD / 160 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Depending on the item or type coverage moves being run on Dragonite is running, its standard Dragon Dance sets are often thwarted by the appropriate counters, many of which are unfortunately common in the metagame. For example, if Dragonite holds Leftovers without some protection (such as Safeguard or Substitute), it's easily prone to status, while holding other items tend to limit Dragonite's survivability in some other way. explain how, such as how Sand removes Multi Scale This set, however, aims to overcome the dragon's usual issues by using Substitute in place of a secondary coverage move, enabling Dragonite to block status, scout responses to it for checks, and set up more easily than ever. Using Substitute also abolishes the pressure of choosing which item the appropriate item or secondary coverage move is best losing that second coverage move is not something positive. Dragonite is therefore permitted to use Leftovers, Roost, and Dragon Claw freely, making it an extremely self-sufficient stallbreaker and attacker when its very few counters are crippled or eliminated.</p>

<p>The primary objective of this set is to set up and outstall the opposing team by using Dragon Dance, Roost, and Substitute, attacking when once Dragonite accumulates enough boosts or whenever necessary. Dragon Dance's speed boost, in conjunction with Substitute, allows Dragonite to outrun and set up on potential status users. This is made even better when Roost comes into play, activating Multiscale and taking minimal damage from these kinds of foes common status users, giving Dragonite even more opportunities to set up and sweep. Although it may seem counterproductive ineffective to use a single attack, Dragon Claw grants great mono-attacking coverage, and is only resisted by occasional Steel-types Steel-types are everywhere bro. Even then, most Steel-types can be overcome by properly setting up and attacking after the boosts proper play, eliminating the need to use Earthquake or Fire Punch.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Dragonite thrives more on invested bulk investment due its ability to set up with Substitute and Roost. The given EV spread is a specialized formula; the defensive investment enables Dragonite's Substitutes to survive 0 Atk Jirachi's Iron Head from Jirachi with 0 Atk EVs,(period) and With the given Speed EVs, after a Dragon Dance, Dragonite outspeeds positive-natured base 110s. Additionally, Attack investment is not necessary since Dragonite can set up multiple boosts. With a Careful nature, Dragonite can set up with ease on random special attacks, though other natures are optimal if Dragonite requires physical bulk (Impish) or to be as fast as outspeed Jolly is used to outspeed other Dragonite, not Speed tie its neutral-natured maximum Speed counterpart (Jolly). Another EV spread to consider is 252 HP / 56 SpD / 200 Spe, which grants Dragonite more special bulk in addition to the ability to outrun positive base 115s after one boost. This, in turn, makes Dragonite an easier target for walls with physical attacks, so keep in mind the tradeoffs of each spread.</p>

<p>Although this set is more self-sufficient than other similar sets, it still needs the correct support to bypass counters and function more easily. As far as dedicated counters are concerned, Skarmory is a huge issue due to its high Defense, resistance to Dragon Claw, and access to Whirlwind to phaze Dragonite out. Other Steel-types and physical walls can be bypassed with the correct setup sequence, though there are some Pokemon that can overcome Dragonite in some way through other means, such as Perish Song users, Ice Punch Metagross, or Unaware Quagsire with Unaware. Generally speaking, before sending Dragonite out to sweep, ensure that walling Defensive threats, such as the aforementioned ones, are eliminated. Magnezone is notable out of all others for its ability to trap and eliminate Steel-types, though Skarmory with Shed Shell may prove to be a problem problematic. Rather than go with the conventional trap-and-kill route, you may simply employ Pokemon that can lure in or punch through these counters, prime examples being include Choice Band Terrakion and Magic Bounce Espeon with Hidden Power Fire.</p>

<p>Rapid Spin support is less not as necessary because of Substitute and Roost, but it's still appreciated so to ensure Multiscale is activated from the start. An offensive Starmie is notable above all others due to its ability to use Rapid Spin, absorb status with Natural Cure, and break down physical walls that Dragonite may encounter. Dragonite, in turn, can set up on threats that wall Starmie, including but not limited to Gastrodon, Jellicent, Blissey, and Rotom-W. Forretress and Tentacruel are also a good choices in this role because of their stellar defenses, great typing, and access to entry hazards. Speaking of which, residual damage is instrumental in Dragonite's role; it will find often itself in situations where it will have to stall out certain foes before doing anything else, which applies mostly to walls such as Quagsire and Hippowdon. These foes are easily stalled out with Toxic Spikes support, which Forretress and Tentacruel can easily set up.</p>
GP Approved (1/2)

 
#21
Deletions
Additions / Corrections
Comments


[SET]
name: Substitute + Dragon Dance
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Dragon Dance
move 3: Dragon Claw
move 4: Roost
item: Leftovers
ability: Multiscale
nature: Careful
evs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 16 SpD / 160 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Depending on the item or coverage moves being run on Dragonite, its standard Dragon Dance sets are often thwarted by the appropriate counters, many of which are unfortunately common in the metagame. For example, if Dragonite holds Leftovers without some form of protection (such as Safeguard or Substitute), it's prone to status, while without it, Multiscale is negated by sandstorm and hail. This set, however, aims to overcome the dragon's usual issues by using Substitute in place of a secondary coverage move, enabling Dragonite to block status, scout for checks, and set up more easily than ever. Using Substitute also abolishes the pressure of choosing the appropriate item. Dragonite is therefore permitted to use Leftovers, Roost, and Dragon Claw freely, making it an extremely self-sufficient stallbreaker and attacker when its very few counters are crippled or eliminated.</p>

<p>The primary objective of this set is to set up and outstall the opposing team by using Dragon Dance, Roost, and Substitute, attacking once Dragonite accumulates enough boosts or whenever necessary. Dragon Dance's Speed boost, in conjunction with Substitute, allows Dragonite to outrun and set up on potential status users. This is made even better when Roost comes into play, activating Multiscale and taking minimal minimizing the damage from dealt by common status users; this gives giving Dragonite even more opportunities to set up and sweep. Although it may seem ineffective to use a single attack, Dragon Claw grants great mono-attacking coverage, and is only resisted by Steel-types. Even then, most Steel-types can be overcome by proper setup, eliminating the need to use Earthquake or Fire Punch.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Dragonite thrives on defensive investment due to its ability to set up with Substitute and Roost. The given EV spread is a specialized formula; the defensive investment enables Dragonite's Substitutes to survive Iron Head from Jirachi with 0 Atk EVs. With the given Speed EVs, Dragonite outspeeds positive-natured base 110s after a boost. Additionally, Attack investment is not necessary since Dragonite can set up multiple boosts. With a Careful nature, Dragonite can set up with ease on random special attacks, though other natures are optimal if Dragonite requires needs more physical bulk (Impish) or wishes to outspeed its neutral-natured maximum Speed counterpart (Jolly). Another EV spread to consider is 252 HP / 56 SpD / 200 Spe, which grants Dragonite more special bulk in addition to the ability to outrun positive-natured base 115s after one boost. This, in turn, makes Dragonite an easier target for walls with physical attacks, so keep in mind the tradeoffs of each spread.</p>

<p>Although this set is more self-sufficient than other similar sets, it still needs the correct support to bypass counters and function more easily. As far as dedicated counters are concerned, Skarmory is a huge issue due to its high Defense, resistance to Dragon Claw, and access to Whirlwind to phaze Dragonite out. Other Steel-types and physical walls can be bypassed with the correct setup sequence, though there are some Pokemon that can overcome Dragonite through other means, such as Perish Song users, Ice Punch Metagross, or Unaware Quagsire. Generally speaking, before sending Dragonite out to sweep, ensure that defensive threats, such as the aforementioned ones, are eliminated. Magnezone is notable for its ability to trap and eliminate Steel-types, though Skarmory with Shed Shell may prove to be problematic. Rather than go with the conventional trap-and-kill route, you may simply employ Pokemon that can lure in or punch through these counters, prime examples including Choice Band Terrakion and Magic Bounce Espeon with Hidden Power Fire.</p>

<p>Rapid Spin support is not as necessary because of Substitute and Roost, but it's still appreciated to ensure Multiscale is activated from the start. An offensive Starmie is notable above all others due to its ability to use Rapid Spin, absorb status with Natural Cure, and break down physical walls that Dragonite may encounter. Dragonite, in turn, can set up on threats that wall Starmie, including but not limited to Gastrodon, Jellicent, Blissey, and Rotom-W. Forretress and Tentacruel are also a good choices because of their stellar defenses, great typing, and access to entry hazards. Speaking of which, residual damage is instrumental in Dragonite's role; it will find often itself in situations where it will have to stall out certain foes before doing anything else, which applies mostly to walls such as Quagsire and Hippowdon. These foes are easily stalled out with Toxic Spikes support, which Forretress and Tentacruel can easily set up.</p>


Dragonite is a boss.



GP 2 / 2