Drapion

[Dragon Rider]

Wouldn't Knock Off be a good move on the "Toxic Spike Phazer"?You could get rid of Lefties on walls (taking them down faster with the TSpikes) or a Band/Specs/Orb off an attacker.The loss of power on the attackers might let Drapion live and keep doing his thing.

Also,which one of these sets look like it could abuse Acupressure better?

Drapion @ Leftovers
Ability: Battle Armor
EVs:252 HP/4 Atk/252 Sp.Def
Nature:Careful (-Sp.Atk + Sp.Def)
-Crunch
-Acupressure
-Rest
-Sleep Talk

or

Drapion @ Leftovers
Ability: Battle Armor
EVs:252 HP/4 Atk/252 Sp.Def
Nature:Careful (-Sp.Atk + Sp.Def)
-Crunch
-Acupressure
-Substitute
-Filler (see below)

Some of the filler options are Taunt or Whirlwind to prevent opposing setups or phazing.Confuse Ray or Attract could maybe be used to get a few extra boosts with their 50% chance of incapacitating the enemy.Otherwise stick an extra coverage like EQ or whatever.

I'm kind of interested in trying out this scorpion and am kind of interested in an Acupressure set as it can take advantage of defense and evasion boosts with Battle Armor stopping crits.Obviously attack and speed boosts would go towards sweeping.So thoughts on how to improve this?

 

[Zacchaeus]

Taunt is the better option there. And I used a set on Shoddy in generation 4 (although it was based on a glitch, I took advantage of the system anyway):

Drapion - Black Sludge/Leftovers
Battle Armor - Careful/Jolly
(Some weird ass EV spread meant to maximize defenses and Speed while not ignoring Attack)
Crunch
Acupressure
Substitute
Whirlwind (didn't think about Taunt...)

I swept like mad with this set, even Registeels didn't stand a chance. So I will definitely use and overuse this now because it's so good it's not even funny

 

[XVIcaliber]

Drapion, to me, is a great tank in the UU meta. Its weakness to Earthquake, though extremely debilitating, is easily fixed through different countermeasures. I run one on my mono-poison team as an SD tank. You'd be surprised how it can outspeed things.

Drapion @ Focus Sash
Impish
Ability: Sniper
252Atk/252Spd/4HP

-Swords Dance
-Night Slash
-Cross Poison
-Earthquake

This thing gets massive coverage, and can get fairly close to 300 HP with good IVs. The problem I run into often is Earthquake, which is solved through the sash. Things that EQ in its tier aren't necessarily fast, so an SD is pretty much guaranteed. If the hax clause isn't in effect, a Scope Lens would be better, seeing as how with it, Night Slash and Cross Poison have a 25% chance to crit for 300% damage.

 

[Dragon Rider]

I can't believe I forgot the Black Sludge.Black Sludge>Lefties on Poison types.Its funny when they Trick and start killing themselves.

I've been thinking too.Is Battle Armor worth it if you are running Sub anyways?Since a Sub will absorb critical hits,maybe use Sniper and change Crunch to Night Slash?Something like:

Drapion @ Black Sludge
Ability: Sniper
EVs:252 HP/4 Atk/252 Sp.Def
Nature:Careful (-Sp.Atk + Sp.Def)
-Night Slash
-Acupressure
-Substitute
-Taunt

 

[UnhandledException]

I can't believe I forgot the Black Sludge.Black Sludge>Lefties on Poison types.Its funny when they Trick and start killing themselves.

Its even funnier when they trick the black sludge back to your walls.

 

[Zacchaeus]

I can't believe I forgot the Black Sludge.Black Sludge>Lefties on Poison types.Its funny when they Trick and start killing themselves.

I've been thinking too.Is Battle Armor worth it if you are running Sub anyways?Since a Sub will absorb critical hits,maybe use Sniper and change Crunch to Night Slash?Something like:

Drapion @ Black Sludge
Ability: Sniper
EVs:252 HP/4 Atk/252 Sp.Def
Nature:Careful (-Sp.Atk + Sp.Def)
-Night Slash
-Acupressure
-Substitute
-Taunt

Sniper (along with Night Slash) is a horrid idea. The whole purpose of this set is to be impervious to almost all attacks while setting up for a sweep. If you decide that +4 or +6 Crunch isn't strong enough and instead you need a +4 or +6 critical hit Night Slash, you're using the set wrong. Is there any reason for insisting upon a 252-252-4 spread for this set? Drapion is like Gliscor, where you want it to have a good amount of everything except Special Attack. (This is all from experience so yes it is an okay idea every once in a while to use an EV spread that doesn't look like 252-252-4. Also, D/P/P Drapion has 5 sets, 2 of which don't use a 252-252-4)

Its even funnier when they trick the black sludge back to your walls.

Why do people pretend that Black Sludge is unusable because Pokémon can take it with Trick and Trick it back to something else on your team? People use Toxic Orbs and Flame Orbs don't they? And I'm almost positive that people still use Choice items, and those are the worst things that a wall can have

 

[Hillz]

Honestly, drapion is destined to uu this gen. I have actually experimented with using drapion in the gen v metagame and I have learned that offensively, his movepool is small and his STABs suck, and defensively he just doesn't have the bulk to handle the stronger hits today.

 

[Dragon Rider]

@Zacchaeus
The Sniper+Night Slash was just an idea I was throwing out there since Sub absorbs crits anyways.I thought maybe Sniper would then be a preferred ability and as such Night Slash could be an option.I have never used Drapion before so I didn't know.Since you have used it,I'll yield to your judgment.

Which brings me to the EVs.I haven't used one before but I noticed his Def is way higher than his HP or Sp.Def stats.Just like you pointed out, he is meant to tank as many hits as possible while setting up.So I invested in his HP and Sp.Def to max them out.I haven't really put the time into the EVs beyond that basic thought so it probably is a crap spread but its what I got right now.Also, every defensive set in the OP has that spread.Since you have used it, what is a good spread for Drapion?

EDIT:Just ran some numbers for this guy.337 HP seems to be his highest "magic lefties" number.This requires 224 EVs.For balanced defenses,a Careful nature with 188 EVs is required.This gives him 256 in both defenses.If you put 16 into Speed, you can outrun +1 Base 90s running 252+ spreads if you get a +2 in speed.This leaves 80 EVs that I don't know what to do with.Suggestions?

 

[Sajak]

EDIT:Just ran some numbers for this guy.337 HP seems to be his highest "magic lefties" number.This requires 224 EVs.For balanced defenses,a Careful nature with 188 EVs is required.This gives him 256 in both defenses.If you put 16 into Speed, you can outrun +1 Base 90s running 252+ spreads if you get a +2 in speed.This leaves 80 EVs that I don't know what to do with.Suggestions?

The other 80 should go into attack or defense (preferably Attack).

 

[Zacchaeus]

EDIT:Just ran some numbers for this guy.337 HP seems to be his highest "magic lefties" number.This requires 224 EVs.For balanced defenses,a Careful nature with 188 EVs is required.This gives him 256 in both defenses.If you put 16 into Speed, you can outrun +1 Base 90s running 252+ spreads if you get a +2 in speed.This leaves 80 EVs that I don't know what to do with.Suggestions?

1. I have a propensity to like equal Def and SpD sets but they might not always be the best ideas (it's probably a better idea to look at common Subway threats or UU/OU threats and at least try to be able to defend against certain things that could take down Drapion (probably things with a Dark resist, especially 4x Dark resist, [I haven't had to deal with Scrafty yet,] or things that carry moves to take out Drapion easily like Earthquake or Earth Power but that might be too much of a stretch.
2. Keep in mind that this set is boosting both Def and SpD so I'm thinking it would be a better idea to have minimal HP investment for a good Leftovers numbers while trying to maximize Def and SpD because each boost you get towards either of those will be much more important for walling than extra HP.
3. Don't neglect Atk and Spe. Even though they come after defenses, they (Atk much more so than Spe) still need to have a large effect when boosted

But don't get me wrong I do like where you're going with the spread so far, these are just my thoughts

 

[Dragon Rider]

1. I have a propensity to like equal Def and SpD sets but they might not always be the best ideas (it's probably a better idea to look at common Subway threats or UU/OU threats and at least try to be able to defend against certain things that could take down Drapion (probably things with a Dark resist, especially 4x Dark resist, [I haven't had to deal with Scrafty yet,] or things that carry moves to take out Drapion easily like Earthquake or Earth Power but that might be too much of a stretch.
2. Keep in mind that this set is boosting both Def and SpD so I'm thinking it would be a better idea to have minimal HP investment for a good Leftovers numbers while trying to maximize Def and SpD because each boost you get towards either of those will be much more important for walling than extra HP.
3. Don't neglect Atk and Spe. Even though they come after defenses, they (Atk much more so than Spe) still need to have a large effect when boosted

But don't get me wrong I do like where you're going with the spread so far, these are just my thoughts

1.Would you mind giving an example of something with an EQ or Earth Power he is likely to face?Maybe something like Registeel or Steelix right?

2.So I should treat Drapion kinda like an Eviolite Pokemon.Higher defenses + boosts to reduce overall damage on both sides.I could do that.After looking at the calculator, the lowest good Lefties number is 305.So that would be 96 EVs.

3.Assuming that I go with the low Lefties number and balanced defenses,the spread so far is:
96 HP/188 Sp.Def/16 Spe with 208 EVs left
305 HP/216 Atk/256 Def/256 Sp.Def/230 Spe as the resulting stats

How much more should I pump the defenses before going for attack?Is 230 speed enough or is there another bench mark I should aim for?

Any help from anyone is appreciated.

 

[Zacchaeus]

Sorry I never saw your post and apparently I'm the only other person who wants to work on Drapion even though it has insane potential. And yeah, since you're boosting the effectiveness of Drapion's defences, Def and SpD are more important than HP.

Just as an example, with a neutral nature, 252 Hp 4 Def gives 344 and 257 respectively. 4 HP and 252 Def gives 282 and 319 respectively. Of course the first set has more natural bulk, but after a +2 boost, those outcomes become 344 and 514, and 282 and 638. So at this point the second set clearly has more bulk, and since you're protected from critical hits, you don't have to worry about any attacks ignoring your Def or SpD boosts

What I've come up with (partially using your idea) is:
Careful - Black Sludge
31-31-31-X-31-31
96-76-68-0-252-16
So it keeps the Speed and HP of your spread but I decided to max Special Defense and then balance it with Defense, and put the rest in Attack. If this spread gets enough Attack and Defense boosts, (and evasion always helps,) It should be able to take out a Steelix or Lucario, however, Scrafty may still pose a threat, but since its only Ground attack is Dig, it may not be offensive enough to do anything more than stall against Drapion. Also, if Drapion has any evasion boosts, Scrafty can't afford to use Hi Jump Kick.

The stat total of that spread is 305 HP, 235 Atk, 273 Def, 140 SpA, 273 SpD, 230 Spe

 

[Dragon Rider]

I like how the spread came out.It looks good.I've looked around around a bit and heres the 4 Pokemon that 4x resist dark:

Lucario
Bisharp
Scrafty
Cobalon

Now to look that over.Lucario is the weakest defensively but one of the hardest hitting in return.A Close Combat does 70% minimum if Lucario and Drapion are at the same boosts (ie +2 Lucario atk vs +2 Drapion def).Special attacking Lucario's are easier to handle as they only have Aura Sphere.Still be carfeul around this one.

Bisharp doesn't pack the same punch as Lucario since it has to rely on Iron Head but it is still walling you regardless of attack increases.It usually Sword Dances so Taunting it is the best option because otherwise it will boost up and beat you if you don't get lucky with defense or evasion boosts.A problem I noticed though is that most Bisharp seem to have 239 speed so it can boost before getting Taunted.You also have to watch out since Crunch could lower its defense and then raise Bisharp's attack.

Scrafty is a little easier.If it is a Dragon Dance+High Jump Kick, you can probably beat it.As you pointed out,if you get an evasion increase you can cut of its main attack and win.Keep in mind though, that any High Jump Kicks that hit will sting.Against the Bulk Up+Drain Punch set,you can Taunt to stop Bulk UP and Rest (you are faster even without a boost) so you can keep Subbing and using Acupressure to boost.So you will win against it.

You should probably never face Cobalon though.Its Sacred Sword ignores any defense boosts while hitting for nuetral damaged.Also any Crunches you launch will just increase its attack power.It can also use Swords Dance to start really hurting.It seems like only some Evasion boosts will let you win.

The final guy worth metioning is that Steelix.It is going to completely dominate any ResTalk set no problems as its Earthquake does a good chunk to any non boosted Drapion while it can phase the boosted ones with Roar/Dragon Tail.SubTaunt Drapion can try to beat it if it can block the phaze.Obviously, Taunt for Roar and Sub for Dragon Tail.

All these guys seem beatable if you can get the right boosts but I think it would be better just to let something else handle them and then let Drapion do his thing.All of them are weak to fighting while 4 are weak to ground and fire.A trapper like Dugtrio or Magnezone (4/5 are steel) could make good partners for Drapion.

Take this as you will.I haven't play tested the Drapion yet so a lot of this is Theorymon mixed with a little damage calculation.

 

[Forsety]

I've always had trouble figuring out how to use this thing beyond gimmick sets or inferior bulky support or sweeper. Although Accupressure is interesting I thought it only just barely cut in last gen, it'd be nice to see someone actually with some success this gen using it.

1.Would you mind giving an example of something with an EQ or Earth Power he is likely to face?Maybe something like Registeel or Steelix right?

Strictly speaking I doubt its going to be OU anytime soon so possible threats with EQ/Earth Power I'd look towards the likes of Sandslash, Donphan, Nidoqueen/king and Seismitoad. The most dangerous one you will have to take into account is the Nido's, thanks to LO+Sheer Force they effectively run base 110/130 STAB Earth Powers now and are by far Drapion's biggest threat since they're viable even in OU and he'll likely have to contest with them again whenever UU is formed.

 

[ScizorMeTimbers]

EDIT:Just ran some numbers for this guy.337 HP seems to be his highest "magic lefties" number.

Why 337 and not 336? I thought for a perfect leftovers number it had to be evenly divisible by 16?


As far as Drapion goes, definitely another run in UU for him. He is just a LITTLE too slow and a LITTLE under powered for OU. If his stats were altered just a tiny bit, I think he could be a force in OU, but oh well. It's a shame because he is one of my favorite pokemon, can't wait until we get a UU tier so I can get some use out of him.

Also, I'm sure this has been said before, but you should always be using his dark STABs over poison. Poison gets awful super effective coverage (SE against grass only) in addition to pretty bad neutral coverage, and steel is totally immune. Dark gets much better coverage in every way.

 

[Zacchaeus]

Although Accupressure is interesting I thought it only just barely cut in last gen, it'd be nice to see someone actually with some success this gen using it.

Yeah that's because you couldn't use Acupressure in a Substitute (legally) last generation, it's a massive improvement. And holy crap Dragon Rider I'm not used to this generation enough. Bisharp doesn't seem too awful but Cobalion oh dear Lord. I thought it was Water/Fighting :(

By the way Sacred Sword bypasses Def and evasion so Drapion can't handle it. Is there any chance of Cobalion being OU and Drapion being UU? Also I doubt Cobalion shows up in Battle Subway but just like with other things, I'm not very knowledgeable about B/W yet.

Finally, try to figure out that HP amount and then I will create that Drapion spread that I laid out (with your HP and Spe) and test it

Also, I'm sure this has been said before, but you should always be using his dark STABs over poison. Poison gets awful super effective coverage (SE against grass only) in addition to pretty bad neutral coverage, and steel is totally immune. Dark gets much better coverage in every way.

Yeah, on offensive sets, Drapion is better off not using a Poison attack usually. I've found that Crunch + Aqua Tail

 

[Forsety]

Bisharp doesn't seem too awful but Cobalion oh dear Lord. I thought it was Water/Fighting :(

By the way Sacred Sword bypasses Def and evasion so Drapion can't handle it. Is there any chance of Cobalion being OU and Drapion being UU?

Drapion being UU is almost guaranteed, but theres also a good chance of Cobalion being UU too. Hes definitely used about the same frequency as Drapion in this gen unlike his other two friends of the trio who are solid OU's.

Also two more big issues I thought of is Accupressure Drapion is stopped dead in its tracks by Unaware Quagsire who comes in, laughs at all your boosts and proceeds to EQ you to hell although he actually as of late maybe moving towards OU. Mandibuzz is the other big problem as its basically like dealing with Skarmory, it'll come in with impunity and phaze you away.

 

[Zacchaeus]

After a Speed boost, Drapion can Taunt Mandibuzz and Skarmory (both here having large Speed investments) to shut them down, but without the Speed boost he could get Taunted and Whirlwinded.

Yes Unaware Quagsire may be more of a threat than previously though. But Bulbapedia doesn't say, does Unaware ignore evasion boosts?

 

[Forsety]

On Mandibuzz I actually forgot about Taunt so yeah Drapion will be safe there.

However on Quagsire I can say from personal experience Unaware ignores most stat boosts except speed boosts, crit boosts, base power boosts (Charge, Stored Power) and ability boosts (Sheer Force, Sand Power). Otherwise it completely ignores even evasion, accuracy, offenses, defense boosts.

 

[Dragon Rider]

ScizorMeTimbers,Here is an article explaining the choice http://www.smogon.com/dp/items/leftovers Basically, the best Lefties numbers are divisible by 16 and then add 1.You get the same amount of recovery but you deal with residual better.

Forsety,Thanks for that list of Ground users.I can't believe I completely spaced on Unaware Quagsire.I wish they would get UU set up soon.Nidoking and Quagsire have a possibility of OU and I want to see where Cobalion winds up.The others are definently threats to poor Drapion though.

Zacchaeus,You were probably thinking about Keldeo as it is the waer fighting.I didn't know Sacred Sword ignored evasion too.If you see any of the Musketeers when using this set, switch or death fodder seems the only options if you don't have some Toxic or TSpikes support.I think the final set looks like:

Drapion @ Black Sludge/Leftovers
Ability: Battle Armor
EVs: 96 HP/76 ATK/68 DEF/252 SP.DEF/16 SPE
Nature:Careful (-Sp.Atk + Sp.Def)
-Crunch
-Acupressure
-Substitute/Rest
-Taunt/Sleep Talk

EVs give lowest Lefties number.The special defense is then maximized while the defense EVs give it balanced defenses.The speed lets you sit at 230 which is enough to outrun 252+ Base 90s with a single boost if you get a speed boost.The rest goes into attack to pack a little more punch.

You can play it one of two ways.If you use Sub+Taunt, you get a little more flexibility and the ability to counter phazers and other annoying problems.The hope is eventually your Sub will become practically unbreakable while you sit behind it and boost.

The ResTalk combination's main draw is the healing aspect of it.The SubTaunt can't heal itself outside of it Sludge/Lefties and so could be worn down if they break your Subs quick enough.The ResTalk combo can allow you to boost and heal at the same time.The drawback is the random nature of Sleep Talk and the fact you are more prone to being phazed or set up on.

 

[Zacchaeus]

Well, I will make this, make teammates for it in Battle Subway and get back to you on the set for the Drapion team. I will also probably run this set in whatever B/W is up to now competitively. And if possible, Dragon Rider, you and I can submit what you just typed up as an analysis if the set works well, of course we might edit it in the near future though.

And in my experiences, the toughened Substitutes along with evasion boosts usually provide enough defense for Black Sludge to heal you, but if you aren't healing well you can just all out attack

By the way if we do submit it as an official analysis, you'll just have to slash Rest on Substitute and then mention Sleep Talk in the comments, because Crunch Acupressure Substitute Sleep Talk makes no sense

 

[WhimsicalBox]

Why do people pretend that Black Sludge is unusable because Pokémon can take it with Trick and Trick it back to something else on your team? People use Toxic Orbs and Flame Orbs don't they? And I'm almost positive that people still use Choice items, and those are the worst things that a wall can have

Because lefties and black sludge have more or less the same effect, but there are no other items that inflicts burn or poison on the user.

 

[Chimaru]

If only Drapion had Levitate...