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Dream World General Metagame Discussion

Discussion in 'Dream World' started by Zephyr, Jan 23, 2012.

  1. lordkira

    lordkira

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    i've been running garchomp on rain teams a lot for electric immunity.
    i love it all except for the wtf water-type moves hitting garchomp.
  2. Cherub Agent

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    Stealth Rock is an egg move on Mamoswine, so in DW it can run all of Thick Fat, Icicle Crash and Stealth Rock at the same time
  3. EXIE

    EXIE

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    I've been using scarf chandelure and can safely say it's borderline broken...mediocre speed is bypassed by scarf and it doesn't mind being locked in when it's going to switch out after anyway (running Overheat amplifies this). Yes it's vulnerable to pursuit but the worst case scenario is one for one. It lets me have the confidence to risk a teamate being KO'd when I know Chandelure will revenge the opponent. All the common hazard setters are afraid of Chandelure if they have no shed shell, and that's a massive boon for the user.

    On a seperate note I'd like to voice my view of the Smogon DW tier from my experience. A good thing is the fast and thrilling pace of matches, due to the raw power of offensive threats, and dedicated stall is non-existent from what I've seen. In fact it's not unusual for a battle to end in less than 20 turns due to the number of OHKO's flying about. But it is the same domination of overpowered offensive threats that I have a problem with, because while the likes of Breloom, Blaziken and Excadrill are far from unstoppable on their own, they can sweep easily with assistance from Chandelure. To be honest PO has a more balanced and advanced DWOU tier.
  4. bluemon

    bluemon

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    I have peaked 16 (at 18 now) and i feel like:

    Manaphy is nowhere in sight and is underwhelming

    and

    Chandelure is nowhere in sight and is ALSO, underwhelming.

    I also feel that speed ties are way more prevalent in this metagame, as it often comes down to scarf genesect vs scarf genesect or jolly breloom vs jolly breloom.
  5. jrrrrrrr

    jrrrrrrr wubwubwub
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    Join the stall research week!

    PO's DW OU tier is almost identical to our current standard OU tier, which is something I'd rather not have. Our metagame is just settling and while there may be some suspects, I think its a consensus that we'll at least wait a little while for things to settle. I mean, last week we were talking about how we might consider unbanning things, this week Blaziken is the hot topic (because it's stall research week, most likely)...things are not perfect but there's no one thing to pinpoint as a problem/broken mon yet.

    Our DW OU tier is more diverse than our Standard OU tier, which is pretty desirable. It's also not something you would expect if something is truly breaking the metagame.
  6. V0x

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    Also another difference of PO's DW tier is that there's no Team Preview (I'm not delusional right?.?), which does affect what you can do since you don't know if Ditto or something is waiting. Idk how much this actually affects the perception of balance and fairness, but it definitely is a notable characteristic.
  7. Omicron

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    I apologize for hyping up Blaziken, but I really hate that thing. Blaziken is an extremely powerful force in the Dream World metagame, destroying basically everything after a Swords Dance and a few Speed boosts. The only way to deal with it is priority such as Techniloom's Mach Punch, or Choice Band Dragonite's ExtremeSpeed. That is literally the only way to deal with it outside of obscure things like priority Thunder Wave from the likes of Thundurus. Even then, Blaziken can simply utilize Baton Pass to something like Garchomp, who is immune to Thunder Wave, and proceed to sweep from there. Blaziken is definitely an extremely powerful Pokemon, but I do agree with waiting a bit longer before determining any suspects.
  8. ala

    ala
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    BUMP

    Yeah as broken as Chandelure is IMO, I haven't seen it a whole lot lately. I'm not complaining because it really does get old having to put Tyranitar on every team. Blaziken is another "suspect" that I haven't seen much of, even though I know how destructive it can be. I think that people are still in the trial phase of DW where everyone is trying out all of the new pokemon, which is great. If it's not apparent that Blaziken/Chand are broken atm, that might change down the road when everything settles down. Sometimes all it takes is a certain moveset to be abused in some way and maybe people haven't figured it out yet. Look at the team "Layla" be iconic, that team basically revolutionized BW OU. A really good team in dreamworld could have the same effect.

    Just my 2 cents on where we are at at the moment.
  9. Taylor

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    People are forgetting you need Tyranitar on every Standard OU team if you want to avoid other weather teams from dominating you. If anything I'd say Choice Scarf Politoed is just as usable because he can revenge kill Excadrill, Thundurus and Garchomp. Tyranitar is vital for easy Pursuits on Chandelure but that exposes you the following turn, as much as it would you be the one sacraficing your Tyranitar and setting up next turn on what is likely a Choice Scarf Chandelure.

    My main issue with Dream World only is Sand Veil Gachomp. You're not guaranteed to hit when there's a chance you may unfairly miss. People aren't abusing Blaziken enough for me to accept some peoples' opinion on this thing; it misses once and it is out of the game. All it takes is one Protect, or maybe Fight Gem Breloom tackling Blaziken for roughly 75% damage.
  10. Hawkstar

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    I never thought Chandelure was broken because I've been using a team that didn't really have anything it could trap. But when I tried to make a new one, I found the list of Pokemon I can't use without a Shed Shell was astoundingly large. Pretty much anything weak to Fire or Ghost or 4x weak to Ice or Grass is now a huge liability if Chandelure is on the other team. Sure, I can Pursuit it, but what if I really needed what Chandelure trapped? What if they send in Keldeo or Conkeldurr or something that forces Tyranitar out and they just got a free turn to set up? When Tyranitar is pretty much the only solid answer to Chandelure, that is really predictable and therefore easy to take advantage of.

    Blaziken got a ton worse with Baton Pass. The second best day to deal with Blaziken in Wifi OU (besides outright killing it) was to force it out. Stuff like Jellicent, Latios, Slowbro, etc. forced it out easily, unless it's running Shadow Claw, but now, all forcing Blaziken out does now is set up another huge sweeper such as Garchomp. Even if it didn't have Baton Pass, just being able to demolish nearly everything with a swords Dance and Speed Boost makes me think it should be banned.

    Sand Veil is Sand Veil. I'm also tired of biting my nails, waiting to see if my vitally-important 100% accurate move will hit Garchomp.
  11. Omicron

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    Chandelure is far from broken. It's simply too slow and its weakness to Stealth Rock and vulnerability to Spikes and Toxic Spikes makes it a liability on certain teams, especially those that lack a spinner. Definitely not a ban-worthy threat. Garchomp, however, has been weighing on my mind quite a bit recently. I can't even count the number of times that I've lost because of one or more crucial misses on Garchomp because of Sand Veil. That ability is probably the most annoying / rage-inducing ability I've ever had the pleasure of dealing with, and it really just leaves everything up to chance, which is something we're trying to steer away from in order to maintain a healthy metagame.

    I've already said my piece on Blaziken, but let me just reiterate it for posterity: Baton Pass makes it ridiculous, basically all its counters are rendered obsolete, as Blaziken can simply pass its boosts to a sweeper that doesn't give two shits about Blaziken's counters.
  12. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Yea, there's nothing in DW that makes Garchomp's Sand Veil offense any more tolerable than in Standard OU, imo
  13. ala

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    Well the only difference is that in DW Garchomp has another ability. What makes Garchomp uber? Is it the fact that it is an extremely powerful sweeper and Sand Veil is what puts it over the edge? If it isn't broken without Sand Veil, should we consider banning just the ability? Should we ban Sand Veil/Snow Cloak on every pokemon that has it in this case?
  14. Taylor

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    Shadow Tag places Chandelure into a different league entirely as terms as "suspect". You know you're running a huge risk playing around the opponent's Chandelure with your Gliscor/Keldeo; basically insert a DW OU threat which Chandelure captures a key member of your team which served as a counter to a specific style/pokemon.

    Baton Pass Blaziken should be one of those threats considered under every circumstance before making a final decision.

    Garchomp plays "that guy" role when in sand. When you lose a member of your team because Garchomp came in to revenge kill, you send in Chandelure expecting to even the score; not have yourself double-crossed and down two pokemon.
  15. Omicron

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    No other Pokemon with Sand Veil or Snow Cloak can boast Garchomp's combination of bulk, power, and Speed, which is what sets it apart from all the other weather-evasion ability users.
  16. V0x

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    If anything, it's almost worse. In DW you get the added benefit of pinch berries. One in particular, Salac, means not much can actually revenge you, especially if you Veil hax a free Sub and Swords Dance. Even without a sub, there's Deoxys-S, which doesn't usually last lategame IME and Excadrill that could revenge Chomp--Deo-S fears a miss and Excadrill does not enough damange with Earthquake.
  17. ala

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    There's also priority which is extremely common because of pokemon like Excadrill, Deoxys-S and the other weather abusers. I think we should consider banning just Sand Veil on Garchomp, I know complex bans are lame but this was not an option in BW OU since Garchomp only had one ability. Without Sand Veil I don't believe Garchomp is broken and could actually be healthy for the metagame. It will be a top pokemon in the tier even without Sand Veil and there won't be any extra hax chance. There's plenty of other threats that are more powerful than Sand Veil-less chomp, namely Manaphy, Blaziken, Thundurus, Excadrill and Chandelure.
  18. Danilo

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    I guess I'll talk about the suspects since my opinion has drastically changed.

    I'll start with Blazikien: It seems like most of us agree that Blazkien should not be allowed in this metagame. It's very difficult to revenge kill(Choice Banded Extremespeed and Mach Punch from a Breloom can kill but only if Blazikien is at 50%) and people are starting to use Baton Pass which makes Blazikein even more degenerate and bad for the metagame than it was prior to Baton Pass Blazikien usage. I don't see many people arguing that Blazikien should stay so I'll move on.

    Chandelure: When I first constructed my opinion on Chandelure, all of my teams had Tyranitar. That was a little less than a month ago and my opinion has changed as I've tried building other teams. It's incredibly difficult to not use a team that doesn't have a Tyranitar in this metagame. Lets look at some usage statistics.
    Tyranitar is at a whooping 73%(or 66% I don't know exactly what the difference is between the Percent and the "Real Percent" is). Many argue that Tyranitar usage is so high because people want to abuse Excadrill. Speaking of the mole, I wonder where it falls in the usage stats.
    Wow, there were nearly 700 battles where Tyranitar and Excadrill were not found on the same team. What could this mean? Maybe it means that people are not solely using Tyranitar for Excadrill. In my personal experience, I use Tyranitar solely as an excellent check to Chandelure. You're practically forced to use Tyranitar in this metagame.
    Tyranitar is being used more than by Politoed by more than 300%. But why is this? Rain is certainly not intrinsically flawed as an archetype in the DW OU metagame. Rain teams have legitimate abusers than sand teams, and arguably more powerful. Rain teams can make full use of Manaphy, Keldeo, Thundurus, Raikou, and other powerful mons. Sand teams have acces to only Excadrill, Garchomp, and Landorus, with the latter being seen on seldom occasion in DW. The only plausible reason for the extreme use of Tyranitar over its toed counterpart is due to Tyranitar's ability to check Chandelure.

    Other facts that I would like to bring to the communties attention is the lack of viable Pokemon in the DW OU metagame. When looking at the 1337 stats for DW OU, only 67 different Pokemon are being used. This is a much smaller number than any other tier bar LC and Ubers(there were very few LC battles this month and Ubers is a totally different animal). I believe that V0x said that DW OU is more diverse than Standard OU(feel free to call me out and embarass me if I am wrong); if that's so then why do we have a fewer number of mons running around the higher parts of the ladder? The real question is why are we allowing a Pokemon that stifles diversity to exist in our metagame?

    I used to think this way too. Most of what you said is true, Chandelure is slow and it's weak to every type of entry hazard; additonally, Chandelure can prove to be a liability on certain teams. I also probably agree that Chandelure is not broken. But, being broken is not the only reason to ban something. My main problem with Chandelure is that it stifles diversity in our wonderful metagame, mostly for the reasons I stated and for the other legitimate reasons that were layed out by other council members.

    Finally, I guess I'll address Taylor as he seems to be the most adamant in his belief that Chandelure should be allowed to remain in DW OU.
    Firstly, the first part of what you said is quite irrelevant. Not only do you not need to run Tyranitar on everyteam to prevent weather wars from dominating you but Tyranitar's role in Standard OU is totally different from Tyranitar's role in DW OU. In DW OU, Tyranitar has two main jobs. 1. Checking Chandelure 2. Providing sand for Excadrill and friends. Tyranitar is the only reliable switch-in to Chandelure in this meta(even the pink blobs have to worry about Sub Calm Mind!). In Standard OU, Tyranitar is not keeping in check some absurd Pokemon that can dismantle defensive cores with a click of a button because other Pokemon can take down dangerous special attackers like Latios. In DW OU, Tyranitar is the sole check to Chandelure, thus leading to a ridiculous amount of Tyranitar usage because Chandelure can provide oppurtunities for its teammates to sweep. Your point on Choice Scarf Politoed is simply comparing apples to oranges. Sure, the toed can revenge kill(not check like Tyranitar can) some of the top threats in DW OU. The toed can come in and Ice Beam an opposing Dragonite. But what happens after you Ice Beam? Chandelure can come in and win the weather war by taking the resisted Ice Beam and finishing off Politoed with Energy Ball. Finally, if Politoed is just as usable as Tyranitar in this metagame, then why don't usage stats reflect the legitimacy of your claim?

    That's all I have to say about Chandelure, shrang makes other good arguments for why Chandelure should be banned in his previous posts.

    Garchomp: A lot of people are complaining about Sand Veil and they're right to complain about that. We've all lost battles where our 100% accurate move has missed and Garchomp was able to clean up our team. Most of us are in agreement that Sand Veil Chomp is not good for this metagame and we would like it to not exist. If this is so, why not just ban Sand Veil(and Snow Cloak too) and have it banned under the evasion clause? I believe the OU Council was discussing the possibility of this in earlier months but they faced a problem with having Pokemon with no abilities because Snow Cloak/Sand Veil were their only released abilities. In DW OU, we are fortunate enough to have all DW abilities released, so we should not have the aforementioned problem. This proposal seems pretty reasonable so I hope more people get behind it.

    Finally, I've been talking to many members of the DW OU community who don't make their voice heard on our forums or irc for various reasons. Some of these people are RS members(not all of these guys are draw begging children!) who deserve to have their voices heard. I often ask them what they think of the "suspects"(Garchomp, Deoxys-s, Blazikien, Keldeo, etc). An overwhelming majority of these players want Chandelure banned while a respectable portion of these people also want Blazikien banned. I hope that the council will be able to take into account some of the lesser heard members of our DW community and not just stick the few of us who post regularly on Smogon so that you guys can create a better DW OU metagame for all to enjoy.

    In summary:
    1. Chandelure should be banned because it stifles diversity in our metagame and although it's not intrinsically broken, what it does to the metagame is not desirable. And apparently, I'm not the only person that believes that we need a diverse Pokemon metagame.
    DougJustDoug (open)


    2. Blazikien should be banned because it's incredibly difficult to revenge kill and sweeps incredibly easily. Additionally, Baton Pass makes Blazikien more degenerate.

    3. Banning all abilities that increase evasion is justified by the Evasion Clause.
  19. Pokeguymon

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    I've been using a Liepard (Prankster ability from DW) and Chandelure (duh) combo to great success:

    Liepard (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Prankster
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Encore
    - Substitute
    - Foul Play
    - Thunder Wave/Taunt

    Chandelure
    Trait: Shadow Tag

    It's really straight forward. Prankster lets Liepard set up prioritized Subs, and if your opponent uses a non-attacking move, they're screwed. Encore will ensure that they can't use anything else (and when it ends after 3 turns, you can Encore again). Foul Play is great because you don't have invest any EVs into your attack stats (http://www.smogon.com/bw/moves/foul_play). Liepard has a fuck ton of other non-attacking moves that it can use in conjunction with Prankster (http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/liepard/moves); I've found Taunt to be invaluable in the above set on Liepard alone, but Thunder Wave works better along side Chandy.

    After you've T-waved your foe (hopefully you'll be behind a Substitute to take a hit), switch into Chandelure and do as you please. Bonus points if you manage to Encore something that does jack shit damage to Chandy.

    I've been having a lot of fun with just Liepard alone, but I reckon it'll be harder to use once people catch on. Its Prankster ability along with its access to a multitude of useful non-damaging moves will definitely bump it out of the NU tier for sure.
  20. Hawkstar

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    One point I have to agree with Sir on is Chandelure. Pursuit is literally a requirement on any team not looking to get carefully dismantled by Chandelure more than once, and while SR and Spikes do their job well, many many common setters (Ferrothorn, Forretress, Jirachi, Skarmory, among others) get nuked by Chandelure itself. If you have the right Pokemon, Chandelure is a one KO wonder, but otherwise, it becomes very hard to deal with. Of course, there is Shed Shell, but Leftovers is a very important item as well, granting much-needed passive recovery, especially to Forretress and Ferrothorn, who otherwise have only unreliable ways to heal themselves.
  21. DetroitLolcat

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    Quoted for truth.

    Garchomp is ridiculously broken in Dream World OU right now. Sand Veil is ten times worse in Dream World OU than it is in regular OU because Sand is about five times better than Rain at the moment. In regular OU when Chompy was still around, winning the weather war was vital to Garchomp's success. In Dream World OU, Sand is used on over 60% of teams above 1337 rating. This means that the weather war is irrelevant to Garchomp's success most of the time, and the Garchomp user can focus on sweeping.

    Now, Garchomp would honestly be a mediocre sweeper at best if it weren't for Sand Veil. Sand Veil is ridiculous in this tier, but it's not Sand Veil that's broken. It's Sand Veil that's breaking Garchomp and for that reason Garchomp should be banned.

    The reason why Garchomp is broken in Dream World OU is its power, Sand Veil, and, most importantly, Salac Berry. Yep, Salac Berry is the thing that pushes Chomp over the limit. In regular OU, Chomp was easily managed by Scarf Politoed, Scarf Landorus, Scarf anything. Now, with +1 Speed, Chomp can outspeed everything slower than ScarfChomp. Now what revenges it? Nothing, since Excadrill can't OHKO.

    SubSalac Garchomp can abuse Sand Veil to no end and then acquire a Speed boost instantaneously which gives it the ability to sweep teams. Sand Veil also prevents it from being reliably attacked, which contributes enough to Garchomp's power that Garchomp deserves to be banned.

    P.S. Please don't bring up the "ban Sand Veil" arguments anyone please. They are such terrible arguments. In case you don't know, the problem with Garchomp is the Gigantic Attack and Speed, not the Evasion boost.

    P.P.S. Also, try a dual trapper core with Dugtrio and Chandelure. You will never lose a weather war.
  22. Taylor

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    So to quote "gigantic attack AND speed", doesn't Blaziken take this spot considering how it's much easier to run Adamant on Blaziken than it ever will be with Garchomp, in Dream World? We don't ban abilities either, even if that's what seals Garchomp's fate in the next suspect round.

    SalaChomp was the first set I used and personally you're still exposed by Breloom, Excadrill, Deoxys-S and ScarfChomp with Dual Chop especially, so I don't think this set merits the term "broken" by any stretch of the imagination.

    Sand Veil tips what we understand is a managable threat into a Pokemon you don't have any guarantee of striking, before it takes you out. This becomes a major problem in any given situation where your attack misses and their Substitute remains in tact. This wouldn't happen even if Garchomp had Multi-Scale!

    Not to mention you say Excadrill fails to OHKO Salac varients yet fail to realise, for your berry to activiate, you need at least 25% of your HP or less for your speed to increase.
  23. Danilo

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    Garchomp isnt broken, not even a little. Is Sand Veil annoying, hell yeah. Is salac annyoing, hell yeah. But your complaining about salac berry doesnt matter because it puts chomp into a range where any random priority move kills him. Not to mention that chomp is walled by so many things and is revenge killed by almost anything faster and if salac is active, priority finishes the thing.
  24. tehy

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    If it has to be at plus one, then it's not at full hp. Are you really telling me excadrill can't ohko when he's at 25% ?
  25. shrang

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    You do have a 20% chance of dodging the EQ, I guess.

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