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Dream World General Metagame Discussion

Discussion in 'Dream World' started by Zephyr, Jan 23, 2012.

  1. drakon136

    drakon136

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    I always thought that he said it was Deoxys-A he'd never retest, not Deoxys-N.

    My guess is that it'll be either a Research Group or a Darkrai retest. Either one would make me happy.
  2. Jimbon

    Jimbon FAKE TRAIN
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    free deoxys-a
  3. Kidogo

    Kidogo

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    Darkrai was certainly underwhelming based on the tourney, although there was perhaps some over-centralization. Deoxys-a and n both seem way too overpowered to me, although MAYBE deoxys-n could get a testing--150 offenses aren't far off from chandy's 145 or exca's 135. 180 seems way extreme though, especially since deoxys-a doesn't sacrifice anything except the ability to survive magikarp tackles, which is about all deo-n can manage anyway with its "higher" defenses. 150 offenses mixed with 150 speed still seems a bit too high to me though--just eliminate all (fast) scarfers and priority users, and there's nothing in the tier that could survive a mixed attacker set.

    Honestly of all the ubers, blaziken and skymin seem the most reasonable to consider testing atm--whatever skymin's haxing prowess, nothing screams uber more than a "frail" special sweeper having the same attack stat as lucario and defenses on par with celebi's (gotta love that mewtwo). 680 BST is just too much, and skymin at least can be taken down fairly easily.
  4. Omicron

    Omicron
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    Mewtwo is not going to be tested, ever. End of discussion.
  5. Tobes

    Tobes "The absolute strongest reindeer"
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    Yeah I'm just going to pretend that was never suggested.

    Edit: To clarify, someone else suggested testing Mewtwo.

    PS Skymin is still a cunt and will never be retested.
  6. Bryce

    Bryce Lun

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    DW OU is still a dead tier on PS.Even with 500+ users I found only one player after waiting almost 40 minutes.Can we do something to make it much more popular?I think the Darkrai Unban did not do enough.
  7. Sewa

    Sewa

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    Sadly, BW2 implemented the majority of DW abilities leaving to DW OU only zapdos, chandy, raikou, serperior and few others.
    The real difference between OU and DW OU is the banlist: people see Excadrill, Garchomp, Manaphy, Darkrai, Deo-S, etc.. and, instead of finding it interesting, they're scared.

    Just think about the discussion that come every day on PO: "Wifi OU is standard meta, DW OU is there if you find it funny to abuse some uber pokemon", "They even introduced Darkrai in OU! That tier is full of broken shit", etc...

    Look up at Genesect discussion in OU: it has always been a good leader and a mediocre scarfer (99 base speed is meh) and many players are screaming for the ban.
    Chandelure is not released yet and everybody want it uber.
  8. /B/utterfree

    /B/utterfree

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    While Shadow Tag is controversial on Gothitelle at the moment, I do not want Chandelure to be Uber. I sincerely think Chandelure is too mediocre and way too easily countered even with Shadow Tag for it to be banned from OU, let alone UU. Chandelure's best ability imo is Flash Fire, and even that's not really much to give Chandelure a Suspect Discussion in UU.
  9. Sewa

    Sewa

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    I was not talking about banning/not banning Chandelure, I was only saying how the average OU player thinks.

    People think that preparing for a poke is synonime of overcentralization. Don't we stick some steel pokes in every team in fear of dragons? Don't we get some electric immunities/resistances in fear of Thundurus-T Thunderspam?
    So now, getting a Sleep Talk pokemon in a meta with Breloom, Amoonguss, Venusaur, Meloetta, Hypnosis Politoed, Drakrai and others means that Darkrai overcentralizes DW.
  10. Jimbon

    Jimbon FAKE TRAIN
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    That's not the reason people don't want to play Dream World. Dream World and Standard are still two completely different metagames despite the new B/W2 releases, (Genesect, Keldeo, Amoonguss, etc.) Dream World is a metagame with Garchomp, Excadrill, Manaphy and most importantly, Chandelure. A lot of the time, you need to run the ever so common mons such as Tyranitar and Garchomp to deal with the mons that separate Dream World from Standard. One thing that heavily deterred me from playing Dream World was that I had to run the same stuff in every team to deal with these threats, and as a result, I haven't played Dream World for months, generally because the tier itself heavily limits what you can use and do well, which is why the players towards the top of the ladder have pretty much the same teams, with maybe one or two changes.
  11. Adamant Zoroark

    Adamant Zoroark

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    Honestly, the things I do not like about DW are Excadrill and Chandelure. Excadrill has two reliable checks: Techniloom and Ditto. With +2 LO Iron Head 2HKOing Gliscor IIRC plus that flinch chance, Gliscor is no longer a reliable counter. Honestly, IMO even with Technician Breloom is incredibly mediocre; too many Pokemon resist both of its STABs and it's both frail and slow by OU standards - a terrible combination to have. Techniloom is also practically asking to be revenge killed by Chandelure, and nobody uses Shed Shell Breloom. Two checks does not justify keeping Excadrill in the metagame.

    Now, Chandelure. Okay, guys. Think of Wobbuffet for a second. Counter + Mirror Coat? Now, against non-choiced Pokemon, all Wobbuffet can really do is Encore. Now, imagine a Pokemon with the same ability as Wobbuffet. This Pokemon also has the highest non-legendary Special Attack in the game. It gets Trick. It is a far better Steel trapper than Magnezone ever was. DragMag? Fuck that shit, use DragChan. Scarf Chandelure traps fucking everything that checks/counters dragons (Mamoswine, Genesect, etc.). Even if it gets trapped by Tyranitar or whatever, it's still done its job (remove something one or more teammates have trouble with). In fact, when you must run things like T-tar/Snorlax just to reliably beat Chandelure, I think it's starting to show that something is horribly wrong with the metagame. Due to Trick, Chandelure pretty much singlehandedly makes stall impossible. Pokemon like Skarmory and Ferrothorn are literally required to run Shed Shell because of it. It's not because of Garchomp or even Manaphy, it's pretty much all because of Chandelure. When Chandelure singlehandedly makes nearly 80% of all teams high up on the ladder sand teams, I think that shows that it is a horribly bad influence on the metagame. Getting rid of Chandelure would tremendously increase the number of viable playstyles because guess what? A metagame where there are such few viable playstyles is boring. Some people don't like facing the same god damn teams over and over again.

    Chandelure is enough to discourage me from playing DW because of how, as Jimbon said, so many of the teams at the top of the ladder are practically the same team with only some slight variation. And it's all because of Chandelure. So, really, when released, Chandelure will singlehandedly make OU the shittiest metagame ever conceived.
  12. superbadd

    superbadd

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    I agree with the post above. Usually I'd disagree about chandelure being broken, but after playing enough, it's clear what exactly is wrong with dw. Chandelure makes it impossible for even darkrai to sweep, which is ridiculous. It makes defensive teams impossible to use, and no core is safe from chandelure. It makes spinning impossible it traps and kills every rapid spin user in the tier. I remember one of the reasons people wanted blaziken banned is because chandelure can take out blaziken's counters, which I thought was absurd. Blame chandelure for blaziken being broken, okay, I see the logic in that. Excadrill was once not so broken, now with iron head, there is no full proof counter. There's a reason why sand is everywhere. Excadrill a pokemon that can only be revenge killed by super strong priority or ditto(ditto better make sure excadrill doesn't have air balloon). Mach punch, ditto, aqua jet. These three things are the only thing that keep excadrill in check. If you decided to run a non-weather team without breloom, ditto, or azumarill you're gonna lose. The generic teams of dw ou are: tyranitar/garchomp/excadrill/chandelure/filler/filler. It's boring as fuck and it's unfair having to see/use the same teams just to win. Can we please have a suspect thread for chandelure? Why it wasn't the first is beyond me. Can we also consider having a suspect thread for excadrill as well. Those two things are the only mons in dw that need to be looked at. IMO garchomp is fine if we just get rid of sand veil. Manaphy is piss weak outside of rain and deo-s and thunderus are quite manageable.
  13. Sewa

    Sewa

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    We can just have the same banlist of OU and gg -___-
    If you don't like Exca and Chandy, just run Scarftoed

    You're not obliged to use sand and Tyranitar. Standard rain teams check easily Chandelure even with no true counters and can easily get rain up as Tyranitar doesn't like coming repeteadly in STAB water moves.
  14. superbadd

    superbadd

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    No, we can bring back blaziken and keep the rest. Exca and chandelure can gtfo. I want to be able to run sun or stall teams and not lose. It just isn't possible with those two present. I hate the suggestion of banning things, because I love diversity and I want the opportunity of being able to use as many different strategies and play styles as possible. However, those two severely limit most viable playstyles. They don't really check/counter anything that would be broken if their presence was gone. In fact they put things like blaziken over the top. They're more of a hindrance if you ask me.
  15. Adamant Zoroark

    Adamant Zoroark

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    Energy Ball: 190-224 (59.19 - 69.78%)

    Can't really say Rain teams "check" Chandelure. That's how much a Scarf Chandelure's Energy Ball does to Scarf Politoed, so get some prior damage on Politoed (very easy to do) and Chandelure will be trapping it, winning the weather war. So, no. Rain does not really reliably check Chandelure at all. On Sand teams you should probably be running some Pokemon that can sponge Water-type attacks. Also, using ScarfToed practically forces you to build a rain team. Politoed isn't just a Pokemon that you can simply chuck on any team. Neither is Tyranitar.

    But, apparently you like a metagame with little variation in high ranking teams. Want me to make a sand team? Ok here we go: T-tar/Chomp/Exca/Chandy/Loom/Azumarill. 5-10 seconds and you just made yourself a team. That's how bad DW is right now.
  16. Bryce

    Bryce Lun

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    Chandelure does hamper the ability to run different kinds of teams.However it is still possible to run different teams just more difficult.That's why most players tend to use the safer reliable classic sand teams.And that is what's causing the over centralization in DW imo.The fact that Chandelure can do over 50% to politoed with energy ball doesn't mean Rain cannot check Chandelure.Rain cuts of it's main STAB Overheat/Fire Blast by 50% limiting the number of KOs it can land.Chandelure cannot win against Rain
    sweepers,Gyarados,Toxicroak,Azumarill,Feraligatr,Manaphy,Keldeo etc all win against Chandelure,Thundurus can use prankstar t-wave to cripple it.And that team you made in 5-10 seconds Lucaroakz,it is laughed at by Shed Shell Skarmory plus it will have 5 other pokemons backing it up.It is true that Chandelure hampers the diversity,it still isn't impossible.
  17. jrrrrrrr

    jrrrrrrr wubwubwub
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    I've said this before and I'll say it again: the "1337 stats" of DW are messed up because there are so many alts at the top of the ladder. If you play a lot youll see that teams are actually quite diverse and there are plenty of viable mons.

    But with that said, the release of BW2 has shifted the focus from DW back to OU. Everyone wants to try the "new" metagame out since that's the one with tournament support in the form of Smogon Tour, Smogon Frontier, and of course the official annual Smogon Tournament. We were able to overcome those disadvantages for a long time, even being the #2 most popular tier. But the allure of unreleased pokemon isn't as strong anymore because there are fewer unreleased pokemon.

    Also, for some reason PS doesn't let us sort players by tiers so there's no real way to gauge activity anymore. It's quite annoying.

    I don't think scared is the right word but I agree with your point. You have to remember, the OU council hasn't done anything significant regarding tiering yet...which means the current OU tier list was decided by the votes of players in standard OU. Of course they would have an incentive to stay in their tier, they've already put work into banning the pokemon that give them trouble. I don't think that makes them scared, I think it makes them hesitant? stubborn? idk the exact word but Sewa is spot on
  18. Adamant Zoroark

    Adamant Zoroark

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    Any Skarmory loses to Excadrill when Excadrill is the last Pokemon. I've already gone though this shit in Standard OU. If you're using Skarmory as an Excadrill counter, you are doing it wrong. Also, Chomp can learn Fire Blast which 2HKOes Skarmory iirc.
  19. Kidogo

    Kidogo

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    I personally feel that this idea of the successful DW team being ttar / exca / chomp / chandy / breloom / keldeo or genesect or whatever is extremely misguided. The vast majority of teams are not like that, and the vast majority of the teams that ARE are made by people looking for the "easiest team style". DW has been touted as being one of the most diverse metagames, and i think that still stands. As j7r said, the 1337 stats are hugely influenced by the existence of alts among high-ranked players--hopefully this can avoid sounding self-congratulatory, but I for example had four accounts in the 1337 range and used fairly close to the same team laddering all of them, which I did quite a lot (that team being composed of 6 of the 7 top used pokes). Add to this the fact that DW has a much smaller playerbase than OU, the tier it's being compared to, and things like multiple alts can hugely distort the usage stats, particularly in 1337, where the number of people using alts is higher and the total number of players is lower.

    The chandelure thing is a notable issue, but I personally think that an opinion of its brokenness in shaping the metagame is (no offense intended) a sign that one has not engaged in a lot of high-level play. First of all, tyranitar does not have 70+% usage in the 1337 stats because of chandelure. Sand is an extremely potent strategy even in OU, and DW's banlist just accentuates this, as does chandelure's presence--but it is not responsible solely or even majorly IMO. Secondly, given that sand is such a powerful (and, to be fair, easier to use in general) playstyle, for less experienced players looking for an answer to chandelure sand is an extremely natural choice--this does NOT qualify as over-centralization. Third, chandelure's impact on the metagame in other domains is not nearly what others seem to think it is. Tyranitar's mere presence on ~80% of 1337 teams (again, independent of chandelure) means chandelure will be restricted to 1 kill a match, and even then it struggles. Does *having to* run shed shell on your skarmory really count as over-centralization? I don't think so. Many players run shed shell on skarmory even in OU because of magnezone. If it were more popular, I'm sure so would be shed shell. As it is, *dictating* what is a popular item on a particular type of wall seems far from over-centralization to me--by this definition, I would expect something like rocky helmet on ferrothorn to be called over-centralization of rapid spinning and volturn. In high-rated battles, chandelure is usually only present on a team for the purpose of covering a team's weakness to specific pokemon such as gliscor or breloom, neither of which usually hold shed shell for obvious reasons, gliscor's being toxic orb or flight gem and breloom some power-increasing item.

    Superbadd, while it is true that defensive teams are less popular in DW than offensive ones, how sure are you that this is attributable to chandy? Offensive teams are just plain easier to use, and as I explained above, sand offense is the most obvious playing style, especially to newer players. Furthermore, just before BW2 there was an outbreak of stallesque teams featuring heatran amoonguss slowbro cores. A good example of this is metagross66's team, which peaked #1 before the server shift (notice that only 1 poke in a full-on stall team has shed shell). The fact that stall is less common in general is in my opinion a comment about the metagame and honestly limits chandy's usefulness.

    I think sewa has the right idea here--the problem is that newcomers upon seeing the metagame just it by OU standards, in which exca, garchomp, and all the other might very well be broken. Together though, they just make it a tier with less stringent banning, a little closer to ubers than OU is. Of course, people never say ubers is a bad tier, because they are used to the idea of it being a different metagame and have accepted that the presence of all these pokemon that would be broken in OU allows for a metagame in which they are in fact perfectly suited. I actually like the DW metagame (before BW2, since when it has been somewhat non-existent) much better than OU's, and i think others would too if they gave it a try and stopped being...perhaps not scared, but how about trepidatious...of a different banlist.

    And lucaroark, skarmory is a totally fine excadrill counter--in fact, (one of) the best. Of course excadrill will beat it in a last mon situation, but when having skarmory means that excadrill will never set-up and sweep your team unless it is the last mon, i think it can be considered an adequate counter and team support be relied on for the aforementioned situation. I mean, anything that can take 1 hit from +2 excadrill and do 70% damage works (since skarmory can BB exca to death after that, or anything with a good priority move. And in addition to skarmory, there do exist very solid excadrill counters. Even if +2 LO iron head can 2HKO gliscor, it easily OHKOs excadrill, and has protect to fish for more HP in case of a flinch. Bronzong resists every move excadrill commonly carries, and can 2HKO with eq. The fact that there is a short list of counters does not mean it broken--for example, terrakion in OU has much fewer counters (basically none actually if one does not know the set), but it is certainly not broken.

    Sorry if this was a little long, just wanted to add my opinion on this topic.
  20. Adamant Zoroark

    Adamant Zoroark

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    In order to argue against the "independent of Chandelure" argument, I'll go back in time in OU stats - All the way back to September 2011, the last time Excadrill was OU for the entire month (Excadrill was banned very early in October)

    Here is the top 20 in the OU 1337 stats in September 2011:

    Code:
     Total battles: 234748
     Total teams: 3304
     Total pokemon: 17179.0
     + ---- + --------------- + ------ + ------- + 
     | Rank | Pokemon         | Usage  | Percent | 
     + ---- + --------------- + ------ + ------- + 
     | 1    | Scizor          | 1173   | 40.969% |
     | 2    | Tyranitar       | 1146   | 40.026% |
     | 3    | Rotom-W         | 1097   | 38.314% |
     | 4    | Politoed        | 887    | 30.980% |
     | 5    | Gliscor         | 606    | 21.165% |
     | 6    | Celebi          | 582    | 20.327% |
     | 7    | Ferrothorn      | 556    | 19.419% |
     | 8    | Tentacruel      | 549    | 19.175% |
     | 9    | Heatran         | 536    | 18.721% |
     | 10   | Dragonite       | 506    | 17.673% |
     | 11   | Terrakion       | 479    | 16.730% |
     | 12   | Deoxys-S        | 453    | 15.822% |
     | 13   | Excadrill       | 426    | 14.879% |
     | 14   | Skarmory        | 407    | 14.215% |
     | 15   | Jirachi         | 397    | 13.866% |
     | 16   | Thundurus       | 387    | 13.517% |
     | 17   | Tornadus        | 340    | 11.875% |
     | 18   | Landorus        | 339    | 11.840% |
     | 19   | Starmie         | 330    | 11.526% |
     | 20   | Latios          | 295    | 10.303% |
    Now, top 20 in the June 2012 DW 1337 stats...

    Code:
     Total battles: 18642
     Total teams: 1714
     Total pokemon: 10284
     + ---- + --------------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- + 
     | Rank | Pokemon         | Usage  | Percent | RealUse| RealPct | 
     + ---- + --------------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- + 
     | 1    | Tyranitar       | 1323   | 77.188% | 1272   | 96.133% | 
     | 2    | Excadrill       | 1268   | 73.979% | 893    | 67.490% | 
     | 3    | Chandelure      | 994    | 57.993% | 745    | 56.304% | 
     | 4    | Skarmory        | 895    | 52.217% | 778    | 58.798% | 
     | 5    | Latias          | 810    | 47.258% | 612    | 46.253% | 
     | 6    | Genesect        | 541    | 31.564% | 498    | 37.637% | 
     | 7    | Terrakion       | 522    | 30.455% | 289    | 21.842% | 
     | 8    | Keldeo          | 398    | 23.221% | 309    | 23.353% | 
     | 9    | Deoxys-S        | 293    | 17.095% | 179    | 13.528% | 
     | 10   | Gliscor         | 265    | 15.461% | 190    | 14.359% | 
     | 11   | Thundurus       | 251    | 14.644% | 173    | 13.075% | 
     | 12   | Breloom         | 229    | 13.361% | 164    | 12.395% | 
     | 13   | Dugtrio         | 206    | 12.019% | 138    | 10.430% | 
     | 14   | Heatran         | 191    | 11.144% | 140    | 10.581% | 
     | 15   | Politoed        | 184    | 10.735% | 182    | 13.755% | 
     | 16   | Feraligatr      | 180    | 10.502% | 105    |  7.936% | 
     | 17   | Garchomp        | 179    | 10.443% | 124    |  9.371% | 
     | 18   | Reuniclus       | 160    |  9.335% | 100    |  7.558% | 
     | 19   | Linoone         | 158    |  9.218% | 118    |  8.918% | 
     | 20   | Manaphy         | 151    |  8.810% | 109    |  8.238% |
    Not going to explain these because it's very clear how big the difference is. But, as you can see, in September 2011 Sand teams were hands down the absolute best teams, while Tyranitar (or even Excadrill) were not nearly as high as they are in DW. So, yes. Chandelure is causing a rise in Tyranitar usage.

    Also, as for the Magnezone argument: Most players in Standard OU do not run Shed Shell on Skarmory because Magnezone simply isn't common enough. Magnezone isn't super-common (only at like #32) because it can't trap fucking everything like Chandelure can. In fact, in OU I tend to only see Magnezone on teams that absolutely need Skarmory removed (i.e. DragMag teams), while Chandelure can cover what Magnezone can and much more (i.e. Gliscor, Breloom, weakened Latios, etc.)

    Anyway, my opinion on Chandelure is not changing even one bit. In fact, Chandelure discussions only make me hate ST Chandy even more, so I'm just not going to continue in this argument.
  21. jrrrrrrr

    jrrrrrrr wubwubwub
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    You're still putting too much emphasis on the DW 1337 stats. They are seriously flawed. Especially when you compare them to the OU 1337 stats that cover like 15 times as many battles. "Look! 73%!" doesn't mean a whole lot when we know that number is messed up.

    Obviously Tyranitar usage would rise with Chandelure usage. Just like Latias usage has risen with Keldeo, and Skarmory with Excadrill. That always happens in any competitive game. There is always a best/most popular/easiest to use character, but being one of those doesn't mean you're banworthy. If you don't mind me using the 1337 DW stats that you posted, Tyranitar would be extremely popular anyways. It supports Excadrill, Skarmory, Genesect, Terrakion and Garchomp with SR and Sandstorm, counters Latias, Heatran and most Deoxys-S, changes Politoed's weather, amazing movepool and stats etc etc. It would still be up there with or without Chandelure.

    And about Shed Shell, people don't use it in DW. Seriously, look at the stats. Only 3 pokemon even used it enough to have it listed as an official stat, none of those have over 10% usage iirc. Shed Shell is simply not seen in DW.

    If this is true, then there's no point in you posting anyways. It can't be a discussion if one side is not willing to understand the other. I kept my post intentionally void of discussing Chandelure just so you could reply if you wanted :D. I just wanted to show you why our reasoning is the way it is, and that it would apply to any mon in this situation.
  22. Armanyte

    Armanyte

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    I admit to being a member of the chandy/tyranitar/gar/exca core people. I can safely say that chandelure is no where near invincible. There are very few situations that I find that actually allow Chandelure to kill more than one poke. I actually had never heard of the core when I built my team it just happened to use some of my favorite pokes. Anyway more to the point. The best teams that I've battled were not the ones who used the core. In fact I have never beat the current #1 on PS sanches br. His rain team threw me to the floor.

    The major issue with the cookie cutter team is that you rely on two maybe 3 pokes to take care of rain, and when at least one of them is choiced (usually chandelure) it makes good rain team really hard to get through. In my personal opinion chandelure is not broken. There are several ways to defeat it, stealth rock, pursuit, and rain are just a few examples.
  23. Kidogo

    Kidogo

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    OK, I agree that sand is more dominant in DW 1337 stats then in OU 1337 stats. But there are also about 13 times as many battles in OU 1337 than DW, and DW 1337 stats is infested with alts. I mean, come on. Linoone is #19 in DW 1337. I know one player who used linoone, and he happens to ladder a lot. There you go, up in top 20 of 1337 stats. 1337 stats in general are unreliable, but seriously, linoone in the top 20 shows that very little credence can be given to these.

    Furthermore, DW 1337 is way more centralized than OU 1337 in general, not just ttar. 4 pokes are over 50%, which is unheard of in OU. #5 for DW, latias, is still at higher usage than any OU poke, and is hurt terribly by the prevalence of sand and by chandelure--this just goes to show that the stats are simply different, and that chandelure cannot be blamed for all this difference. If it could, why in the world would latias be #5 when it didn't even show up in OU 1337? The reason for latias's popularity probably has something to do with keldeo, breloom, amoonguss, and others, but i don't hear anyone claiming they should be banned for their outrageous effect on the metagame. Chandelure is simply the most noticeable new threat, and is getting way too much hype and overestimation.
  24. Bryce

    Bryce Lun

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    Well it's funny that from the post I complained about DW being a dead tier it went into a discussion about Chandelure.And from the few posts above and in opinion of majority of people I think we can conclude Chandelure is not broken.But this isn't going to bring back DW.I think BW2's release has hampered it's popularity and there is nothing we can do about it.But what I'm thinking that the few of us who wants to play DW OU, we discuss our timings and try to make them overlap.That way someone would not have to wait for such a long time for a battle and DW OU will get some activity.Even if we have to battle same players over and over again,it's better than doing no battle at all and besides,a new player is going to quit DW OU immediately if he sees DW is such an inactive tier.
  25. lordkira

    lordkira

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    1,143
    I agree with this.
    And ugh...garchomp and his ninja skills gives me headaches sometimes and I constantly get the urge to rip all my hair out.

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