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Droughtfest [The choice of a new generation]

Discussion in 'BW Other Teams' started by Hack, Sep 30, 2013.

  1. Hack

    Hack formerly Hack He Must
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2012
    Messages:
    990
    Hello, Hack here with my second RMT. For those of you who don’t know me, I have been playing Ubers for almost a year now, and as Pokémon X and Y is around the corner, I might as well start revealing my secrets to everybody anyway. The team I am sharing today is a hyper offensive Sun team that has made great progress on the Ubers ladders for half a year now. Many players on the Pokémon Showdown! ladder have been given this team by me, so it comes as no surprise if you find it familiar. Ladder accomplishments and tournament victories are objective ways to determine a team’s strength, even though the ladder is bad, there have been a lot of different players who has had success with my team in both ladder play and tournaments. Therefore I feel comfortable saying this team is one of the best I have created. My last Rate My Team was vastly different. Being a stall team, something I viewed as the ultimate playstyle, it had an inherent disadvantage compared to offensive teams, which is that it is prone to bad luck and being specific to counter all threats (which is ultimately an impossible feat) . Therefore, I currently view offense as being the best playstyle in the Ubers metagame.

    I am also a player that never builds a team without proper countermeasures against entry hazards. Being a tier in which blocking Rapid Spin is very easy due to the sheer bulk of the Ghost-types, the Ubers tier gives breed to terrific styles of play such as Spike-stacking offense and stall. Having a team with no answer to entry hazards can never be great in my eyes. There are some ways I can classify as having answers to entry hazards, such as having a Rapid Spin user, a Magic Bounce Pokémon, a high amount of offensive presence to hinder entry hazard setters from setting up, a team with Pokémon that are hardly affected a lot by Stealth Rock and Spikes (that is, a team with multiple Levitators) or a combination of the above. The team will feature two criteria of these, namely having an anti-hazard Pokémon as well as sufficient offensive presence.

    Team building process:

    Admittedly, this team I am about to showcase is not a team I built from scratch. Together with Anik, we took my original team and applied numerous changes to make it what it is today. The original team, which I have used for a long time, is what the current team is based on:
    Code:
    Groudon @ Leftovers
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 240 Def / 252 HP / 16 Spd
    Impish Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Stone Edge
    - Dragon Tail
    
    Ho-Oh @ Life Orb
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
    Adamant Nature
    - Sacred Fire
    - Brave Bird
    - Roost
    - Flame Charge
    
    Palkia @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
    Timid Nature
    - Spacial Rend
    - Fire Blast
    - Hydro Pump
    - Thunder
    
    Genesect @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Download
    EVs: 224 Spd / 8 SAtk / 252 Atk / 24 HP
    Naive Nature
    - U-turn
    - Ice Beam
    - Iron Head
    - Explosion
    
    Arceus @ Silk Scarf
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 56 Spd / 252 Atk / 200 HP
    Adamant Nature
    - ExtremeSpeed
    - Shadow Claw
    - Swords Dance
    - Brick Break
    
    Espeon @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Magic Bounce
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
    Timid Nature
    - Grass Knot
    - Hidden Power [Fighting]
    - Psyshock
    - Yawn
    

    [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    The success of this team on the ladder was mainly built on the premise of the excellent synergy between the three core members Palkia, Groudon and Ho-Oh. I had solid ways to combat threats in the metagame, and Espeon pulled its weight through the support given by its teammates. Given all this, it had a slight weakness to Terrakion, even though Groudon could mostly tank its attacks. Although I felt the team was in a state where I couldn't really improve it without harming the overall structure, CHAMPION LANCE showed me a very interesting set he had been using for his SmashPass team. Now the set was a sort of anti-lead Cloyster, built to combat the Giratina Formes with its Icicle Spear, as well as being able to pull out a very surprising amount of utilities in laying Spikes, using the move Rapid Spin to remove entry hazards, and power itself up for a sweep. This set inspired me to see how insane offensive presense could be a method to keep Stealth Rocks away, as I am a player that cannot stand entry hazards on my side of the field. The set below:

    Cloyster (M) @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Skill Link
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Icicle Spear
    - Rapid Spin
    - Spikes
    - Shell Smash

    By adding Cloyster I had somewhat disrupted the team structure. Espeon's Hidden Power [Fighting] was the main tool for weakening Dialga from the lead spot, allowing a teammate to pick it off later, but this was all gone. Dialga leads seemed very problematic and I decided to use a different Groudon set. It was highly optimized, as it OHKO’d the common support Dialga, while retaining some bulk to check Arceus-Normal. Also, as Espeon somewhat deterred players from just spamming Dark Void with their Darkrai, I now needed a way to make sure Darkrai couldn't have its way. For example, a common play was to lead with Genesect against Darkrai before immediately U-turning out to Espeon to reflect the Dark Void. Anyway, Lum Berry Arceus solved this issue as a quick U-turn from Genesect followed by ExtremeSpeed neutralized Darkrai’s effort completely (note that this strategy only worked vs. Darkrai leads). The sets are found below:

    Groudon @ Earth Plate
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 176 HP / 220 Atk / 112 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Rock Slide
    - Dragon Tail

    Arceus @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 56 Spd / 252 Atk / 200 HP
    Adamant Nature
    - ExtremeSpeed
    - Shadow Claw
    - Swords Dance
    - Brick Break

    However, reducing Groudon's Defense stat made the team vulnerable to being swept by Terrakion, as even the Choice Scarf set could deal loads of damage to the team. The easiest fix was to add Arceus-Ghost instead of Extreme Killer Arceus, but this change reintroduced the issue that this team had with Darkrai leads. I am of the belief that a good team must have an answer to sleep, and without Lum Berry, my early game answer was gone. Following this premise I decided to use Choice Band Ho-Oh as it could easily take the sleep and proceed to destroy Darkrai while sleeping, and I don't regret this change one bit. As I had added Arceus-Ghost, I decided to crank up the Speed on Groudon to the maximum level. Now, I didn't exactly like how weak Palkia was, so the option to use the item Choice Specs was very appealing. Three choice users on a team might be a bit counterproductive, but as the Choice Scarf holder spams U-turn and the Choice Band holder could afford to use high base power moves with little drawbacks, Choice Specs Palkia was tested and it earned a permanent spot on this team. Here is Droughtfest:

    [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    A closer look:

    [​IMG] @ [​IMG]
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 4 HP 252 Atk 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Rock Slide
    - Dragon Tail


    As my team’s weather starter, one would expect the land behemoth to be vital part of this team’s success. As Drought fuels Ho-Oh, the centrepiece of the team, its justification is hardly needed. Groudon is also my Stealth Rock setter, which is of course mandatory for nearly all competitive team (except perhaps full Baton Pass chains and a certain SmashPass team two of my friends made :P). Earthquake is the obvious STAB move and hits really hard with the given EVs. Dialga, a common user of Stealth Rock, is OHKOed unless it has significant defensive investment (and no one should ever use Dialga that way). Ho-Oh appreciates Groudon’s ability to KO the Temporal Pokémon and thus preventing it from using Stealth Rock. Having such offensive presence is exactly what the team needs, and the Speed is maximized so that Groudon can at least Speed-tie with all other neutral-Natured 90 base Speed Pokémon. Groudon outruns Ho-Oh and slays it in one hit with Rock Slide, a move which is preferred over Stone Edge due to its higher Accuracy. Dragon Tail is used to stop Extreme Killer Arceus in a pinch and to pseudo-Haze Pokémon that try to set up on Groudon.

    [​IMG] @ [​IMG]
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 76 HP 252 Atk 180 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Sacred Fire
    - Brave Bird
    - Earthquake
    - Sleep Talk


    Being my personal favorite Uber Pokémon for its ability to be a tank and a wall-breaker with just one set, Ho-Oh is able to destroy my opponents’ team consistently if certain conditions are met. A desperate need for countermeasures to entry hazards (Stealth Rock) is needed, as well as teammates to kill enemy Stealth Rock setters. Normally, I elect to use Espeon for the role of an anti-hazard Pokémon on offensive Sun teams as it is very nifty, but this team works by combining a hyper offensive style of play along with a Cloyster anti-lead to Rapid Spin away hazards if necessary. The EVs grant maximum power and a Speed stat high enough to outpace the standard Rock Polish Groudon and Tailwind Zekrom by one point. The HP EVs ensure that Ho-Oh is never KO’d in two hits by Arceus-Ghost’s Calm Mind-boosted Judgments. Ho-Oh is not frail by any means, especially with Regenerator, which can be abused a lot should Stealth Rock not be up. Sacred Fire and Brave Bird are the obvious STAB moves, and Earthquake is used to heavily damage Pokémon that resist both of the aforementioned attacks, such as Zekrom, Tyranitar, and Dialga in the rain. Sleep Talk is a countermeasure against Darkrai as any of Ho-Oh’s attacks randomly picked while sleeping are very powerful and with few drawbacks.

    [​IMG] @ [​IMG]
    Trait: Skill Link
    EVs: 4 HP 252 Atk 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Icicle Spear
    - Rapid Spin
    - Spikes / Toxic Spikes
    - Shell Smash


    Cloyster is my team’s anti-hazard Pokémon and more often than not, my lead. Using Cloyster is very interesting and requires a lot of planning when scouting your opponent’s team in the Team Preview. If the opponent has a Deoxys-S, Deoxys-A, Groudon, Custap Berry Forretress or simply no countermeasures to entry hazards, Cloyster should be sent out as the lead and played with accordingly. Against Deoxys-S or Deoxys-A use Icicle Spear on the first turn - it will KO the Attack Forme in one hit, while the Speed Forme will take huge damage. If Deoxys-S uses Taunt on that turn, proceed to spam Rapid Spin until it is KOed, but if it setd up entry hazards on that turn, Shell Smash and proceed to Rapid Spin and KO as many Pokémon as possible. If you face a lead Groudon, Icicle Spear to weaken it - if it sets up Stealth Rock on that turn, attempt to Rapid Spin away the hazards or KO depending on the situation. If it attacks, then KO the Groudon with a second Icicle Spear or set up a layer of Spikes on an anticipated switch-out (only if you see the lack of a Rapid Spinner in the opponent’s team). Another way to deal with Groudon is to simply lead with Palkia and OHKO it. Against Custap Berry Forretress, things get tricky: You must break Sturdy and continue to keep hazards off the field by smart playing. I admit it is hard to handle but Leftovers Forretress with Stealth Rock is much worse as Sturdy is harder to break. Thankfully, leftovers Forretress it is a rare lead. Against Darkrai, go with Genesect and U-turn into Ho-Oh. Dialga is troublesome for Cloyster, but Groudon should handle most of these rather nicely. Against all teams without a Rapid Spinner, you should attempt to get up a layer of Spikes, which is really great to weaken the opposing team for an Arceus sweep. If you see it fit, Cloyster can be sacrificed for momentum. After many battles, I tested out Toxic Spikes as well, and it truly deserves a slash. While Spikes's advantages against Ferrothorn, Tentacruel and Heatran are quite obvious, a layer of Toxic Spikes is sometimes just what the team needs to pressure Pokémon without Leftovers. Common examples are Arceus Formes, such as Grass, who are easily worn down, which opens up for a Palkia sweep, or Kyogre as Toxic Spikes will cut Water Spout's power as well aiding the team to win the weather war. Credits for this set goes to CHAMPION LANCE/Ultimate Champion/Pokémon Trainer R as well as Sasha the Master.

    [​IMG] @ [​IMG]
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 252 HP 4 SAtk 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Judgment
    - Focus Blast
    - Recover
    - Calm Mind


    Arceus-Ghost is obviously a good sweeper and also a Pokémon used to glue this team together as it can take on a wide range of threats with its awesome bulk in conjunction with Recover. Arceus becomes the tank to lean back on when everything else fails. It is also the sweeper than can turn a match around completely. Terrakion, which was a big threat to the old version of this team, is no more than set-up bait now. The ExtremeSpeed immunity allows my Groudon to be ever faster, because Arceus-Ghost can live one +2 Shadow Claw and try to hit at least one Focus Blast, which it theoretically has a 91 % chance of doing in two attempts. Since all attacks on the team put Extreme Killer Arceus within Focus Blast KO range, especially with entry hazard support, I personally feel that maximum HP investment is the way to go as it eases setup, and the extra power gained from maximizing Special Attack is unnecessary. The moves are self-explanatory, with Recover being the crux of this set as it allows my team to fall back on something sturdy every once in a while. Maximum Speed is usually the best way to go as it is better in Calm Mind wars, and allows Arceus-Ghost to Speed-tie with other maximum Speed support Arceus variants. In the lategame, Arceus-Ghost becomes a fearsome sweeper that sets up very easily against a multitude of threats. One common way to get a very easy set-up is to sacrifice Groudon to Kyogre before sending out Arceus-Ghost and proceeding to get a free Calm Mind.

    Alternatively, one could opt for an offensive Calm Mind set consisting of Substitute, Fire Blast, Judgment and Calm Mind. This completely side-steps most support Arceus-Fighting variants, and hits Extremekiller Arceus for good damage with Fire Blast. The downside to this is an added dragon weakness, as Arceus cannot tanks attacks well now. Another bad thing is the set's weakness to sand in general.

    [​IMG] @ [​IMG]
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 4 HP 252 SAtk 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Spacial Rend
    - Draco Meteor
    - Thunder
    - Hydro Pump


    Credits to Aless123 (Ike) for this set. After battling him a couple of times on the ladder, it became apparent to me how hard Palkia can hit when it holds a pair of Choice Specs. It can even break Ho-Oh (non-Leftovers) sometimes without Stealth Rock. The EV spread maximizes Palkia’s Speed and Special Attack stat. The move set might seem strange as Fire Blast is absent on a Sun team like this. The reason is because Ferrothorn is seldom used in Sun teams, and because Palkia switches into Kyogre, the weather will be rainy as Ferrothorn attempts to switch in on Palkia. But here is the thing: Hydro Pump 2HKOs Ferrothorn after a layer of Spikes, and deals good damage to Kyogre anyway. Compare this to Fire Blast, which deals nothing to Kyogre, should it predict that move. Basically, Choice Specs Hydro Pump creates a scenario in which prediction is not needed. As for the rest of the set, Spacial Rend is the move I spam the most against Sun teams, and it always 2HKOs support Dialga, which often tries to switch into Palkia in order to set up Stealth Rock. Draco Meteor is the fuck all button and is used in lead scenarios against Groudon, as it OHKOs it. Thunder is another questionable move as I deal so much damage with my STAB moves alone anyway, but the rise of the specially-defensive Kyogre makes Thunder a necessity, and this move also 2HKOs Kyogre that have obtained a Calm Mind boost. What you want to do with Palkia is simple: Smash.

    A possible change to make is using a Haban Berry or Lustrous Orb Palkia with Dragon Tail here. As Palkia tends to become set-up fodder for Arceus-Ghost, even when using Choice Specs, Dragon Tail could ease the pressure on Ho-oh and more importantly, Cloyster to do its job.

    [​IMG] @ [​IMG]
    Trait: Download
    EVs: 248 Atk 8 SAtk 252 Spd
    Naive Nature
    - U-turn
    - Ice Beam
    - Iron Head
    - Flamethrower


    Genesect completes this team by fulfilling the role of a revenge-killer. Genesect can mindlessly spam U-turn to deal with Mewtwo, Darkrai, and especially Latias and Latios. Genesect is, in my opinion, a better Choice Scarf holder than Terrakion as it often doesn’t have to lock itself into a move when revenge-killing, thanks to U-turn. Ice Beam is a tool for disposing of Zekrom and Rayquaza, and the given EVs guarantee an OHKO on the latter without the Download-boost. Maximum Speed EVs are all that is needed to outpace 95 base Speed Pokémon that maximize their Speed stat, such as Rayquaza, as well as Speed-tying with other Genesect, which is important as my Genesect has Flamethrower to OHKO opposing Genesect. The maximum Attack investment grants a strong, boosted U-turn against Latias. Iron Head is a great move to spam in a late-game sweep, against some Calm Minding Arceus in an emergency, as well as the notorious Arceus-Rock that can wall many Sun teams easily. Toxic Spikes from Cloyster in combination with Iron Head makes Arceus-Ghost cry. Explosion could round off the set in a blasting manner - with it, Ho-Oh must always be wary of falling before the Pokémon it usually hard walls, but I elected for Flamethrower to get swift KOs against Forretress and friends as well as having a pseudo-STAB move in the Sun against Arceus-Normal. Even though Genesect is a cool lead, it is also quite predictable- and leading against Ho-Oh or Dialga is something to be avoided. Therefore, use the Team Preview wisely and and pick either Groudon or Cloyster, or in the few cases in which doing so is suitable (such as if the opponent has a Darkrai), Genesect.

    Conclusion:

    Please do try this team. I guarantee that it won't disappoint. Keep in mind that momentum is key when using offensive teams, so do not start the match by shooting yourself in the foot! Use Team Preview wisely and choose your lead accordingly, and from there, make a solid plan leading you to victory. Possible changes include using a Latias instead of Palkia to cover up for support Arceus-Figthing and Groudon better, and Extremekiller Arceus instead of Ghostceus if you feel like priority is your thing. Also, changing EV spreads on some of the Pokémon (making Ho-oh bulker or faster, using Arceus-Ghost with max special attack etc.) is also viable. And you don't have to use three choice users, lustkia goes well on the team, as does Life Orb Ho-oh :) Here is on last look and an importable:

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Importable:
    Code:
    My favorite bird (Ho-Oh) @ Choice Band
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 76 HP / 252 Atk / 180 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Sacred Fire
    - Brave Bird
    - Earthquake
    - Sleep Talk
    
    My tail is underrated (Groudon) @ Earth Plate
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Rock Slide
    - Dragon Tail
    
    I carry lum berry (Cloyster) (M) @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Skill Link
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Icicle Spear
    - Rapid Spin
    - Spikes
    - Shell Smash
    
    My dick (Arceus-Ghost) @ Spooky Plate
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Judgment
    - Focus Blast
    - Recover
    - Calm Mind
    
    Because fuck yeah (Palkia) @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Spacial Rend
    - Draco Meteor
    - Thunder
    - Hydro Pump
    
    Gotta go fast (Genesect) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Download
    EVs: 248 Atk / 8 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Naive Nature
    - U-turn
    - Ice Beam
    - Iron Head
    - Flamethrower
    
    Credits:

    Imma Fly- Who popularized the idea of Choice Band Ho-Oh within my former clan, Dragon Rush, and therefore inspiring the rest of us to consider using that Pokémon for this team.

    Anik- A great friend who suggested many vital changes such as Arceus-Ghost and Choice Band Ho-oh, cleaned up this RMT and whatnot.

    CHAMPION LANCE/PTR/Ultimate Champion- Another great friend. The Cloyster set is ingenius.

    Sasha the Master- Read above.

    Sweep- Great battler and friend alike. The number of matches you have tested the different versions of my team are insane. Thank you!

    Kebabe- Bros 4 life.

    And all the rest of you who hang out with me, you know who you are.
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2013
    Steve Angello, Level 56, hyw and 28 others like this.
  2. Hack

    Hack formerly Hack He Must
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2012
    Messages:
    990
    Threatlist goes here maybe.
  3. Jimmyftw

    Jimmyftw

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2013
    Messages:
    297
    Hi, nice team you have there! You have excellent synergy between your team members. I have a somewhat similar team, Sun of a Gun, I believe you battled it a couple of times. I would recommend EXPLOSION on Genesect since without it, Ekiller with Recover sets up on you and since you went the offensive route with your Groudon, this can be very detrimental late game. Recover Arceus-Normal is becoming more and more popular now :pimp:. Your Palkia set is pretty solid, however it does faces trouble against other sun teams, particularly sun teams with steel members. To remedy this, I suggest you replace Draco Meteor with Fire Blast to play well in both sun and rain. Since you are running a sun team yourself, if you can maintain your weather, sun-boost spec Fire Blast does a lot of damage without the nasty drop in special attack. The absolute power of Spec Draco Meteor may be tempting, but I find that it is usually not worth it to be at -2, especially considering the dangerous set up sweepers running amok in the uber environment, such as SD Arceus variants and RP Groudon, which currently gives this team major issues if allowed to set up.

    All in all, excellent team man. I hope my rate helps. :)
  4. Hack

    Hack formerly Hack He Must
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2012
    Messages:
    990
    It is absolutely detrimental to be able to OHKO Groudon with Palkia. Recover E-killer which no one should ever use (and no one ever uses in high-level play) is even better against defensive Groudon, so I don't see your point arguing that the route of offensive Groudon makes me more vulnerable to it. Explosion is indeed a nice suggestion, and I use it sometimes. Sun teams with Steel-members are either those with Forry who can be 2HKOd by rend anyway and Heatran, who is immune to Fire Blast. Ferro, Rachi and Steelceus are almost never used on sun due to the amount of Dragons they are supposed to wall almost always carry a Fire-move- basically if I would use Fire Blast on Palkia, it would be vs sand teams with Ferrothorn. Also a -2 specs Draco does a solid chunk vs Arceus and even more against offensive Groudon, and though you are right about them being able to set up, I don't actually use Draco that much. It is used vs offensive SR Dialga and SR Groudon. Otherwise I almost always spam Spacial Rend. Thanks for the rate.
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2013
  5. Edgar

    Edgar Mega Mence is life.
    is an official Team Rateris a SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2012
    Messages:
    852
    The only thing I would suggest is Haban Berry Palkia over Choice Specs, Haban Berry Palkia with Dragon Tail over Draco Meteor would benefit your team a lot since it would help you phaze CM Arceus-Ghost which is a threat considering you need to keep SR away and flinching it with Genesect for dealing with it. And you don't really need Choice Specs Palkia since Banded Ho-Oh already keeps a lot of pressure on most of teams.

    252 +1 SpAtk Spooky Plate Arceus-Ghost Judgment vs 76 HP/0 SpDef Ho-oh: 51.08% - 60.48% 2 hits to KO

    Palkia:
    Show Hide

    [​IMG]
    Palkia @ Haban Berry
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Hasty Nature (+Spd, -Def)
    - Spacial Rend
    - Hydro Pump
    - Fire Blast
    - Dragon Tail



    Nice team! :]
  6. Hack

    Hack formerly Hack He Must
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2012
    Messages:
    990
    Thanks for the rate Edgar! I will try Haban Palkia, it's really good suggestion. It's a toss up for me though, since I use it to pressure Support Arc-Fight and Ho-oh a lot, but Dragon tail is really nice to have vs Ghostceus and E-killer trying to set up. About that calc, in the RMT I calced for no special attack Ghostceus as I can OHKO the offensive CM variants with Sacred Fire. However, with SR up, it's another story.
  7. moonbase

    moonbase

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2012
    Messages:
    262
    Hello Hack, everyone that knows this team knows that it is one of the best laddering teams ever made, but I have some changes that will make it more consistent in preforming on the ladder.


    First of all, as previously suggested, change the genesect moveset to make it carry Explosion. It’s not really worth carrying flamethrower, because when facing a ferrothorn, you normally u turn into cloyster, because you can beat it, or you switch into ho-oh when facing it. That same situation goes for forretress as well.

    The only thing I do see when using flamethrower is that E-killer, and Ghostceus will have an extremely hard time setting up on you.


    If Tina-A/O and the residual damage me that much to you, you should keep dragon tail, but I believe that otherwise, it would be a much better option to use roar, to minimize the chance of Hax happening to you when you miss your dragon tail vs E killer, and ghostceus in the clutch misses Focus Blast. I know, it has happened to me too when using this team.


    Next, I would half- heartedly recommend a Lustkia :

    Palkia @ Lustrous Orb
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Spacial Rend
    - Fire Blast
    - Thunder
    - Hydro Punp


    instead of the specskia that you already have, because it thoroughly rapes any stall team that doesn’t have grassceus in the rain, and it can still 2hko pretty much any arceus form in the rain. also being stuck into Thunder vs Groudon can be pretty badI know the advantages to having specskia, so this change as well as any change that I suggest is completely optional. can still one shot mewtwo with a lust orb and rain boosted hydro pump/ along with a lot of other things
    PS: no one in their right mind would keep Groudon in on Palkia
    PSS: something can be swapped out for dragon tail


    Last of all (and arguably most importantly) I would recommend changing your ghostceus set to this one:


    Arceus @ Spooky Plate
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 116 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 Def / 136 HP
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Judgment
    - Focus Blast
    - Recover
    - Calm Mind



    The advantages of this set are that you almost always kill E-killer, unless its running Max HP, after one layer of spikes/ rocks, unlike your old set that had a chance to miss the 2 hit kill on E- killer with focus Blast. This set also has the advantage to always live a +2 Adamant, life orb boosted shadow claw from E-killer. At the trade-off of some bulk.


    One last minor note is that I would change earthquake on you CB ho-oh to Whirlwind because a CB boosted Earthquake will not kill darkrai, but you can still use sleep talk when this happens, and hopefully, you will always win in this situation. This also has the added benefit of phazing a sub nasty plot Darkrai, which CB ho-oh still has some problems with. The reason why I am suggesting this is because you have stuff to deal with zekrom, arceus- rock, and dialga.


    All changes stated are up to your opinion, and I wish you the best heading into gen 6 where everything will get fucked up.

    -moonbase
  8. Hack

    Hack formerly Hack He Must
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2012
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    Thanks for the rate moonbase! Lustrous Palkia is another thing I have been using. It sure works well even though it cannot pressure Support Fightceus and Ho-oh as efficiently. I'd much rather use a set with Dragon Tail in it, though, as the advantage of that move is much clearer. And even though no one in their right mind would keep in their Groudon on their Palkia normally, there might be situations where actually being able to OHKO is better. Haban and Lustrous are of course viable ideas, feel free to use those items when playing with the team! Whirlwind on CB Ho-oh isn't a great idea, Earthquake is big weapon against Ho-oh's biggest counter: Arceus-Rock. And I'm fine with the 2hko on Darkrai, as I just switch in to absorb sleep, go into Genesect and then go back into Ho-oh most of the time vs it.

    I don't see much point of the Ghostceus spread, if I play myself into a situation where I have to hit 2 Focus Blasts in a row and also 2HKO the E-killer with them, then I probably deserve to lose. I haven't done calcs but Ghostceus bulk is very important in General against threats like Palkia, Dialga and Kyurem-W.

    PS. It worked great in tournaments too.
  9. Edgar

    Edgar Mega Mence is life.
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    Yeah I meant with Sp.Atk.
  10. moonbase

    moonbase

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    what's the biggest threats to this team in terms of general playstyles, and specific pokes. (I know about defensive fightceus, and offensive ghostceus with rocks up already) Wihout cloyster, Gliscor seems like a real pain in the ass as well.
  11. My rank

    My rank

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    nice team :)
  12. Chicharino

    Chicharino Guest

    Hey Hack, really nice team! I've versed it on the ladder, and I can say, it is indeed really solid. Then again, what team wouldn't be after tons of great Uber players have worked on it? My main team is actually quite a lot like this one lol (with the only dif being Xatu > Cloyster, and me running dif sets on Don, and Ho Oh). I don't think any suggestions are possible for the team, one addition to the team will ruin the synnergy of the rest of the team. The only thing I can think of at all is potentially Lati@s for Fightceus. That said, I would like to thank you. For the largest time, my team would struggle with support Dialgas, and I was reluctant to change my Groudon to offensive, but seeing as how effective this team is, I'm going to go for it, and see how it works, thanks man. Nice team, will try updating the RMT if/once a threat list comes out =). Cheers!
  13. Donkey

    Donkey

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    I played this on the ladder a few times with an old sand team of mine which shares a very similar core: Ho-Oh/Genesect/Palkia/Arceus-Ghost. I didn't realize it was your team I was playing until now. However, I had haban Palkia / Sub Ho-Oh / Special Genesect so it was quite easy to build up momentum (other two mons were Tyranitar and Balloon Excadrill). Your team can't really deal with Substitute users well because of the double choice. The sets are unique so the surprise factor will obviously be good vs stall and bulky teams that rely on walling Ho-Oh but it has trouble breaking offensive teams because of Cloyster and Band Ho-oh - both mons have a very specialized role and they can become dead weight quickly.
  14. Hack

    Hack formerly Hack He Must
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    Thanks for the rate Chiracharino, I am glad I influenced you. Many sun teams look similar, it's those little things that separate each team from another, which is why I of course tried Laitas and Latios on different versions of the team before. Both are nice additions, and could possibly replace Palkia if one would like to. I am not a big fan of HP Fire Latias, so it is quite impractical when the opponent got a Ferrothorn on a rain team, compared to when I have Palkia at least. Latios can't check Kyogre as well as any of the two- and I'd say it's quite important as this isn't a hyper offensive team. Also, while the weakness to Fightceus is alleviated, Ghostceus becomes a bigger threat.

    Thanks for rate Donkey, elaborate on substitute users that beats this team. Your arguments are pretty vague, bring up concrete examples. The way I see it is that substitute users are as much of an issue to this team as to any team. Darkrai, Giratina-O, Steelceus and Ho-oh, by far the most common users of the move aren't really problems to this team. I can see sub Shaymin-S being an issue though, but it's not because of double choice users as I will be vary of locking myself into EQ against a team with a Shaymin-S anyway. Cloyster can't become dead weight against HO as it threatens with a Shell Smash that could deal loads of damage to offensive teams, as well as setting up spikes, deterring my opponent from switching too much. Band Ho-oh is just as good against offense as regular LO Ho-oh is in my eyes, with the added benefit of more momentum, less recoil and Sleep Talk against Darkrai- and of course the disadvantage of not being able to roost.
    badabing likes this.
  15. Edgar

    Edgar Mega Mence is life.
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    This is true.
  16. Furai

    Furai a Ωdefender // a αguardian
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

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    so yeah i dont have much to rate really.

    obviously haban + dtail on palker and roar > dtail on donner

    i'd really love to see the flame charge ho-oh version here, but you can't really fit it without sacrificing your sleep absorber or making it gene which is fairly unreliable..

    this team is super reliant on cloyster to work as im sure you know so you must be really careful w/ that

    speaking of which this cloyster is poppy's :toast:
    Kingler12345 likes this.
  17. Hack

    Hack formerly Hack He Must
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    Thanks furai, you are right on much, d tail could be replaced and yeah I love fc ho-oh too :( can't find a team slot to handle sleep without CB. Haban Palker is cool- I already explained the advantages of specs and haban, there are definitely upsides and downsides, and it's ofc very viable.

    and about poppy creating that set, idk, got it from PTR who I am sure doesn't talk to poppy much.
  18. rileydelete

    rileydelete

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    Well, you asked for a rate, so here's my two cents :)

    Right off the bat, I love using Specs Palkia. The fact that you're using Palkia in general, along with Ho-Oh, Groudon, and Ghostceus means you have a solid, reliable, and easy to spot core. You can deal with most of the metagame handily, and don't have to worry about too many threats. Honestly, on the surface, Droughtfest seems like a generic Sun team, that is both well built, and very effective.

    On the surface. In reality, this team has several unique factors that make it stand out above a run of the mill sun team, and let it be beastly on the ladder and off. Let's take a look at some of these factors...

    1) Cloyster

    Brilliant, simply just awesome. I've never seen Cloyster on a sun team before that can work so nicely. Honestly, Cloyster is becoming more and more popular as a lead nowadays-something that makes perfect sense; it can spin, set up, attack and more. It has solid Defense too, letting it stomach all but the most powerful physical blows.

    Really, one of the best things I like about your team in general is that it has a Pokemon that can go up against every common lead and come out on top. I suppose Scarf Darkrai could be annoying if it puts your Genesect asleep, but let's be honest, Scarf Rai leading with Dark Void lets you switch into something without worry, and you immediately know what set its running.

    I do have a question about your Cloyster: what if it gets Burned? Sure, you still have a solid spiker/hazard remover, but what are you going to do if it gets it's attack cut? I bring this up, because rarely, An Arceus form (say Normalceus) could lead and Burn it, crippling it for the rest of the match. Again, like Scarf Rai leading, this scenario won't happen often, it's just something that comes to mind.

    In summation, it awesome that you have Cloyster on your sun team. Perhaps rock blast could be used to beat things like W-o-W Heatran, but you 4 moveslots are wonderful as they are. Nice stuff here :)

    Factor 2) Your Groudon
    Ah, nice EVS here. You can KO Dialga and Ho-Oh, while being fast enough to hit other stuff hard I really like what you've done here. I personally favor Utility Groudon, but this set works wonders for your team.

    (I'll add more to this rate when I have some more time, but Hack, you have one hell of a team-Great work :)
  19. Hack

    Hack formerly Hack He Must
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    To address that question we have to look at common Will o Wisp users, or rather, the Pokémon that can spread burns in the tier. Wallceus, Arceus-Ghost (some other assorted Arceus Formes- Grass, Water, Rock, Steel), Giratina and of course Ho-oh. First thing to note is that most Will o Wisp Arceus are walled by my own Ho-oh. Arceus-Rock is an exception to this, and is thus the most problematic of the support Arceus-Formes that spread burns, so that would definitely leave me in a bad spot if it lead against me. Do note that players don't often lead with their Arceus-Forme, as they want to keep the element of surprise the Pokémon brings a bit longer mostly. Giratina is also a Pokémon Ho-oh switches into with ease. One thing that can be outlined is that Ho-oh is a magnificent burn absorber due to the fact that it walls many of the Will o Wisp users. Opposing Ho-oh are more troublesome, but they generally don't lead in fear of Groudon, and they won't ever switch in vs Cloyster so a scenario where Cloyster is up vs Ho-oh rarely happens. Thanks for you kind words Riley :]

    Ps: Scarfrai are dealt with by going into Ho-oh and tank the sleep, just like any other Darkrai. If it tricks, you got a fast Ho-oh, which isn't entirely bad against Hyper Offense- where Darkrai is commonly found.
  20. Mr_Bramboy

    Mr_Bramboy

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    I was testing the team and this just happend..

    [​IMG]
    Alert to Sounds, rileydelete and Hack like this.
  21. Mr_Bramboy

    Mr_Bramboy

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    Nice team, very balanced. The only real problem I came across was Sub-Roost Ho-Oh. If the opponent didn't set up Rain, then Palkia couldn't kill it with Hydro Pump. There really aren't any other counters to it.
  22. My rank

    My rank

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    i think groudon outspeeds Bulky ho-oh which sub roost and kill it with rock slide

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