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Dual Normal Kiss

Discussion in 'BW Other Teams' started by Dell, Apr 8, 2013.

  1. Dell

    Dell majestic pride.
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Apr 19, 2012
    Dual Normal Kiss

    [​IMG][​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]


    Hello Smogon. I suppose that I shall start by stating that before I structured this team, I had a long NU hiatus that lasted for about 2-3 months, then by the time that I started to play again, that's when the new drops (Jynx, Scolipede, Munchlax) came along. I must say; just like most others, I was pretty hyped about the new drops since I never really got around towards using Jynx and Scolipede before their departure of the tier when the time arose for that matter. Laddering with it became a great success, since I managed to gain top 3 placing within less than 30 wins. It took a bit of time and effort to get the team towards the way that really attracted me within the dynamic process of it with the help of extensive theorycrafting of the metagame and various testing against competent players. Also, shoutouts to my good friend EBeast for lending me a hand within the process of managing past shortcomings with the team.

    Now, despite the fact that you may see a lot of different things going on, the premise of the team itself is as simple as it gets; overload the opposing team with hazards, cushions to deal with many common metagame threats, status (Sleep, most importantly), and early to mid-game wall breaking, and have one of my offensive Pokemon sweep in the end. I really liked the concept of the team having two Normal Types that supports either other in a way. One that revenge kills and wall breaks through a myriad of threats, and the other that functions as a dangerous sweeper that it capable of setting up on several common physical walls that the former fails to break through. While this was questionable in my mind to be running that kind of strategy in a metagame where Fighting-types are popular, it really developed great offensive chemistry that the team cherished for. So from there this is where I present to you: Dual Normal Kiss.​

    In Detail

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    • Item: Ground Gem
    • Ability: Sturdy
    • EVs: 88 HP / 252 Atk / 168 Spe
    • Nature: Adamant (+Atk, -SpA)
      • Earthquake
      • Rock Blast
      • Stealth Rock
      • Sucker Punch

    • Why this Pokemon?

      Golem's offensive presence and utility is, as I've selected, the best way to go about as my Stealth Rock user for how offensive this team can be. Its useful bulk and resistances are key for this team to deal with opposing offensive teams alike that carries Pokemon like Swellow, Braviary, Rotom-S, Scolipede and various Normal-types in the metagame, its reliability of setting up Stealth Rock is pretty crucial to this team's success, and it has a good universal matchup against most other Stealth Rock users.

      Ground Gem may seem like an odd option, but its damage output is very invaluable for several situations, such as the ability to OHKO Roselia and Golurk, punishing common switch-ins much better (allowing me to 2HKO a previously burned Piloswine which is freaking awesome), and being able to 2HKO Wartortle and better against other Rapid Spinners. It often isn't a waste of an item either since Golem isn't the only Pokemon on the team that performs well against Stealth Rock users as a lead.

      Otherwise, the set is pretty standard and has important uses for the team, with a few more EV's that allows me to outpace most Golurk. It's worth noting that while Golem (and Misdreavus) leads in a vast majority of battles, its not the Pokemon listed first in team preview; that spot belongs to Jynx, as it tends to lure the opponent into leading their priority, Choice Scarf user, or faster Pokemon in general, which is valuable information to have when I decide to bring it out later.

    • Possible Changes:

      • Leftovers could work, but Stealth Rock, Kangaskhan's priority, and Jynx's/Scolipede's Speed helps me deal with Flying and Poison types fine if Golem can't stick around long enough.
      • Lum Berry is an option as well, but the popularity of Misdreavus tends to make that less of a viable option than it would seem, since even without getting the first burn, Golem isn't dealing significant damage anytime soon.
      • Custap Berry seems interesting, since it can function as a nice surprise to Primeape who attempts to U-turn for the revenge kill.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    • Item: Life Orb
    • Ability: Dry Skin
    • EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 SpD
    • Nature: Timid (+Spe, -Atk)
      • Ice Beam
      • Psyshock
      • Focus Blast
      • Lovely Kiss

    • Why this Pokemon?

      Originally, I didn't care how the team would turn out, as long as I get to find the team that is fit for Jynx. Otherwise, I couldn't really think of any other special attacker that had the same capabilities of sweeping at a moments notice and function as one of the most deadly mid-game wallbreakers in the tier. Not only is Life Orb Jynx capable of 2HKO'ing potentially every relevant threat in the tier, but it's able to put a troublesome threat to sleep (or just beat it 1v1 if I outspeed it due to Lovely Kiss), possesses a Speed tier that defines the offensive nature of the current metagame, functions as an excellent check to Rain Offensive teams, and also a nice switch in and check to most Water and Psychic type Pokemon in the tier.

      This is one of, if not the most devastating sets/threats in the tier (not to mention the set that got Jynx banned in the past), and Jynx, alone with Scolipede is very much a contender for the best Pokemon in the tier.

    • Possible Changes:

      • Psychic can be used to always 2HKO Alomomola.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    • Item: Life Orb
    • Ability: Swarm
    • EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 Def
    • Nature: Jolly (+Spe, -SpA)
      • Spikes
      • Megahorn
      • Aqua Tail
      • Rock Slide

    • Why this Pokemon?

      Say hello to one of the most prominent drops that NU have come across of date, Scolipede shines as one of the best and versatile offensive Pokemon that NU has to offer. For this team, Scolipede functions as an offensive Spiker, with an excellent typing, speed stat, and movepool that allows it to check various Fighting, Grass, and Psychic types in the tier while supporting the team with the luxury of setting up Spikes against the likes of Pokemon that it can switch into. Because of how deceptively easy it is to reach Swarm range, it easily allows it to steamroll most teams that lacks a Bug resist, with coverage that allows it to get past Rock/Ground types and opposing Scolipede.

    • Possible Changes:

      • Swords Dance seems like a viable option if one of the coverage moves is not necessary, since it allows it to pierce through Alomomola if necessary.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    • Item: Life Orb
    • Ability: Scrappy
    • EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
    • Nature: Adamant (+Atk, -SpA)
      • Fake Out
      • Double-Edge
      • Drain Punch
      • Sucker Punch

    • Why this Pokemon?

      Widely considered as the best revenge killer in the tier, Kangaskhan makes addition for the team for said purpose, with a great ability that allows for an offensive coverage that is unresisted in the tier. Fake Out+Sucker Punch is the crux of dealing with the many dangerous sweepers in the tier, while Double-Edge allows it deal great damage to anything that does resist it. Running Life Orb and Double-Edge may seem like an unattractive option for a Pokemon that possesses such useful bulk, but dealing as much damage to opposing Misdreavus as possible is really crucial for this team's success, which is why I run Drain Punch as the superior option over Earthquake to still allow good staying power.

    • Possible Changes:

      • Silk Scarf is still very usable if I happen to exaggerate how annoying Misdreavus may be for this team.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    • Item: Leftovers
    • Ability: Cloud Nine
    • EVs: 224 HP / 32 Atk / 128 SDef / 124 Spd
    • Nature: Careful (+SpD, -SpA)
      • Body Slam
      • Substitute
      • Swords Dance
      • Power Whip

    • Why this Pokemon?

      The idea of running Lickilicky came a lot later than you would expect it to be, but I have to look for something that can cushion well against several special attackers that I would be otherwise weak to, such as Eelektross and Charizard, while still maintaining the ability to gain offensive presence and strike reasonable hard. SD Lickilicky is honestly the saving grace for a lot of the support that this team really needed, since it it poses such a valuable threat to more defensive teams that possess walls that I would otherwise struggle to get past, such as Alomomola, Misdreavus, and Tangela, while its overall bulk really give it significant time to spread paralysis against more offensive teams, which not only aids Lickilicky's ability to setup, but also supports the team very well. It's also a great check to Volt-Turn offensive because of how the rest of the team is structured in general. Choice Scarf Primeape, for example, would be very hard pressed to using Close Combat against this team and would generally prefer to just U-turn out instead, allowing me to scout that and simply go for a Substitute. This gives me a big advantage since the EV's allow the Substitute to survive Rotom-S Volt Switch, giving Lickilicky a good change to threaten a good portion of the team.

      I feel that it's worth noting that since Sun Offensive is currently a semi-dominant playstyle in the metagame, Cloud Nine is amazing and allows me to easily check Ludicolo and Sun Offense teams, since they very often lack the ability to deal significant damage to it with Cloud Nine, allowing Lickilicky to break those teams with relevant ease.

    • Possible Changes:

      • Support set is very valuable for the team as well, since one of the set's best teammates in the team greatly benefits from it, but that tends to shift the momentum of the team to generally unfavorable matters.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    • Item: Eviolite
    • Ability: Levitate
    • EVs: 248 HP / 220 Def / 40 Spd
    • Nature: Impish (+Def, -SpA)
      • Foul Play
      • Will-O-Wisp
      • Pain Split
      • Taunt

    • Why this Pokemon?

      If you don't have a solid check to one of the deadliest sweepers in the tier, Substitute Salac Scolipede, then you're pretty much screwed. That's all there is to it. Aside from that, to be quite honest, there's virtually no reason to not use Misdreavus in the current metagame. Not only does it perform absolutely brilliantly against the popular Fighting-types and Rock/Ground types in the tier, it also keeps several other dangerous threats in check; Scolipede, Kangashkhan, offensive Psychic types if healthy enough, several popular pivots due to its generally superior Speed stat, and the ability to beat virtually every Physical attacker in the tier with the combination of the moveset that you see in the set while staying healthy for the majority of the time with Pain Split and Will-O-Wisp support.

      Foul Play is over Shadow Ball because of its useful damage output on several Physical attackers and offensive Psychic types, and prevents things like Cacturne, SubCM Gardevoir, and Sawsbuck from setting up Substitutes, otherwise forcing Misdreavus out. The rest is pretty much standard, with Taunt to utilize against Stealth Rock leads who thinks they can get cute and setup Stealth Rock first turn, and also added utility to opposing walls like Alomomola, Musharna, and Tangela

      Speed EV's allows to outrun Adamant Cacturne and Rampardos, while outpacing standard Golurk and bulky Skuntank who aren't creeping hardcore.

    • Possible Changes:

      • Heal Bell can be used to support the team if something ends up inflicting status, but the ability to prevent Rocks up early game is something that really allows this team to gain momentum advantages against several other teams

    Final Look
    [​IMG][​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]


    That's all I really left to say other than saying how proud I am of the consistent success of this team so far. Another thing I suppose that I will note out on is how you go by using this team. Of course, you're going to need to keep in mind with this mentality of the team; overload the opposing team with hazards, cushions to deal with many common metagame threats, status (Sleep, most importantly), and early to mid-game wall breaking, and have one of my offensive Pokemon sweep in the end. This means that it's perfectly fine to make certain sacrifices depending on what's going to accomplish more for you. Keep in mind that while this team is mainly focused on dishing out damage for the most part, depending on the situation, keeping certain members alive and healthy is very much crucial for the team's success. Obviously, use team preview to your advantage and take priority of your prediction skills and you should be able to handle anything. Speaking of anything, I have yet to properly analyze the main threats aside from my previous teambuilding adjustments (so it's reserved for later at the time being), which is why I've structured the the threat list in a way that could be useful to future teambuilding processes since it could be much more helpful for a way of properly analyze metagame threats. Thank you for reading.​

    Threat List

    • [​IMG]Spikes Offense[​IMG]

    • [​IMG]Bulky Offense/Balance[​IMG]

    • [​IMG]Volt-Turn Offense[​IMG]

    • [​IMG]Hyper Offense[​IMG]

    • [​IMG]Sun Offense[​IMG]

    • [​IMG]Rain Offense[​IMG]

    • [​IMG]Stall[​IMG]

    Change Log

    Show Hide

    Jynx (F) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Dry Skin
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Ice Beam
    - Psyshock
    - Focus Blast
    - Lovely Kiss

    Kangaskhan (F) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Scrappy
    EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Fake Out
    - Double-Edge
    - Drain Punch
    - Sucker Punch

    Misdreavus (F) @ Eviolite
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 248 HP / 220 Def / 40 Spd
    Impish Nature
    - Foul Play
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Taunt
    - Pain Split

    Scolipede (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Swarm
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Spikes
    - Megahorn
    - Aqua Tail
    - Rock Slide

    Lickilicky @ Leftovers
    Trait: Cloud Nine
    EVs: 224 HP / 32 Atk / 128 SDef / 124 Spd
    Careful Nature
    - Body Slam
    - Swords Dance
    - Substitute
    - Power Whip

    Golem (M) @ Ground Gem
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 88 HP / 252 Atk / 168 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Rock Blast
    - Earthquake
    - Sucker Punch
  2. WhiteDMist

    WhiteDMist Path>Goal
    is a CAP Contributoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Apr 3, 2010
    Offensively this team has great synergy, being able to take on many types of playstyles. Defensively, you are still somewhat vulnerable to stuff like Volt-Turn, Dark-Fighting cores, and Sun offense with Charizard and Exeggutor. You have several ways to prevent such problems from gaining the momentum though, which is probably the key of this team. Changing any of your team members does disrupt the nice synergy you have going, so there is only a limited amount of things I can suggest if you feel that Lickilicky is good enough for you.

    I know FLCL is probably going to mention this if he rates, but the small amount of bulk you retain with those 40 HP isn't worth being outsped by Timid Seismitoad (and the super rare non-Scarf Modest Rotom-formes) so having at least 224 Speed EVs would help. I guess you can keep the remainder in HP, but what you do with them is rather irrelevant unless you are facing an Adamant Kangaskhan with max Speed. Having Life Orb on two of your offensive Pokes is a bit troubling, but if KO-ing Misdreavus is top priority then I won't object. Do consider Focus Sash on Scolipede though, even if you don't always make use of it. That would give you another possible lead if setting up Rocks seems less helpful.

    I'm happy you at least removed the one problem with your team which was that WishPass set. While it still feels like it is a bit slow, setting up so easily on walls and dealing with the nuisances of Regice and Eelektross is good enough for me if it is good enough for you.

    I've said it before, but your teams tend to have very few flaws that are easy to fix. In truth, I feel you are probably one of the top players in terms of offensive synergy and still pretty high up there in terms of defensive synergy. You are getting a luvdisc for sure. Also, congrats on your 100 post, and I hope to see you contribute more around Neverused! :heart:
  3. Detective Scruffy

    Detective Scruffy

    Mar 23, 2013
    This team has everything balanced offence needs: Hazards a Spinblocker and heavy hitters which can, in some cases, take a hit. The only thing i have to say is that u have 2 pokemon with a Stealth Rock weakness to 2 of ur main attackers which also hold a life orb. This could mean that they would easily be worn out by switching and taking LO recoil. So a spinner would be viable although i don't see which pokemon could be replaced without ruining the synergy.
    You also have no scarfers which means that you might find yourself in a position which is difficult to get out of and will need a lot of prediction.
    Finally, Skuntank might be a problem for you. He can taunt many of your pokemon and cause big damage to scolipede with sucker punch and aftermath. So make sure to keep Golem around!
  4. Tenshinhan


    Feb 26, 2010
    Water sweepers like Simipour, LOSamurott, Ludicolo or Gorebyss can be dangerous if Jynx is touched. (All of them has a move that can 2HKO Jynx, and Jynx take 25% of SR and is weak to the omniprecence of Skuntank)

    So if i suggest to change Lickilicky movement:
    Use a 252HP/Sp.Def with Dragon Tail, Heal Bell, Wish + Protect.
    None of them can 2HKO Lickilicky, and thanks to the hazards support, Dragon Tail become very very useful cause it weak the opposite team.

    Heal Bell cause you havent got any status absorber, so Jynx, Tangela, Exeggutor, Alomomola (Scald/Toxic), Regice, Regirock, Probopass, Misdreavus, Weezing etc... can threat your team with status moves. Heal Bell remedys that.

    In addition, Wish can be a reliable form to recover Misdreavus (and really all teammates), cause Lickilicky attracts Fighting and Steel Types that Misdreavus can switch in with impunity and recover 75% of HP. Remember that Pain Split isn´t a good form of recover, and your team got 3 weaks to Fight and Scolipede isn´t good taking hits (and less with all that Fighting pokes with eQ and Stone Edge)

    You won´t mess Lickilicky, as Kangaskhan is more or less the same, and remember that a Double Edge Kangaskhan makes more damage that +2Body Slam from Licklilicky.
  5. Dell

    Dell majestic pride.
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Apr 19, 2012
    Thanks for the rate everyone. WhiteDMist, thanks for the astounding complements and elaboration towards rating this team, as it really tells how great of a team rater that you are. I'm definitely going to make the change of running max Speed as user FLCL suggested in the IRC.

    Though I don't think that I should replace Lickilicky, since all of the suggestions so far makes me more open to Shell Smash Carracosta, a threat of which I can't necessarily afford to be weak to.

    Skuntank isn't a threat at all, as he can hardly do much damage to this team as it is and being able to Taunt Scolipede doesn't necessarily mean much when I still get one layer of Spikes up beforehand and can just hit it extremely hard with Megahorn. Misdreavus also outpaces bulky varients, which is nice as well.

    Tenshinhan, don't mean to be rude, but I think you just need to play NU more if you're saying that a team with Kangaskhan, Scolipede, Jynx, and Cloud Nine Lickilicky (all of which means that they aren't breaking through nor sweeping this team anytime soon) is weak to Simipour, Special Samurott, Ludicolo, or Gorebyss. Also, Jynx doesn't lose to Skuntank at all because of Lovely Kiss and the fact that it's 2HKO'd by Ice Beam.
  6. Tenshinhan


    Feb 26, 2010
    Hydro Pump from Specs Simipour (I know that it isnt very popular, but still it is in NU) or Life Orb Samurott/Ludicolo actually make a clever OHKO on Kangaskhan, Scolipede and Golem, and 2HKO that Lickilicky version and Misdreavus (As I say, Jynx can hold it, however, you can take a Megahorn and die or get HP grass and suffer near to 50% Damage by the hand of Samurott, or take a lot of dagame from a Focus Blast from Simipour or Giga Drain from Ludicolo, appart of being OHKOed and outspeeded by a Shell Smashed Gorebyss with HP Grass).
    Jynx can sleep Skuntank too, however, its 75% Accuracy fail 1/4 of the time so it is not safe. And what happens if you has sleep a enemy before? or the enemy is using Lum Berry?

    I dont need to play more. 1900 points with a Monotype Grass (can see it in the Lader NU challenge post) I know that NU lader isnt the best, but i play NU enough is what i want to say.
    You can just say: i didnt think that Lickilicky change is neccesary cause blabla... however, your first comment was totally out of place, talking to me like i am a noob. I just wanted to help you, if you don´t want it, just say: ``Thanks but i think its better that Licki set cause Water aren´t as dangerous as you say´´ or something. Cause you dont know me to say: Play more in NU.
    Respect is never bad.

    Other problem that i see is Klang: Can OHKO and 2HKO all your team and its hard to you to break his sub, as you have to sacrificate Kangaskhan or Golem to break his sub and die. And Jynx Focus Blast / Scolipede eQ doesnt OHKO Klang, wich can set up on Lickilicky, and your physical wall, Misdreavus, cant broke his sub. However, its hard for Klang as he can only set up Substitute in Licki face, but can set up Shift Gear in really any other member bar Golem or Sweet Kiss Jynx or Misdreavus WoW
  7. Dell

    Dell majestic pride.
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Apr 19, 2012
    Except that Jynx is a good check to Specs Simipour since it's immune to its STAB move and does little else aside from that (even if it does lock itself into something else, then hello Lickilicky or a resist to the move that it uses). Also, Specs Simipour is revenge killed fairly easy by half of my team anyways. Also since it isn't common, it's hardly worth mentioning.

    Life Orb Samurott/Ludicolo is still checked by Jynx and Lickilicky, no matter how you put it. If Samurott leads against Golem, then I can just switch to Jynx as it Taunts or hit it extremely hard by a Ground Gem boosted Earthquake. Ludicolo, on the other hand, can't switch in on pretty much anything barring Misdreavus, so that's flat out wrong. Also, Timid Ludicolo can't 2HKO Lickilicky without prior damage.

    Also, look again at the RMT for the reasoning behind why I'm refusing to resort to Support Lickilicky.

    Also regarding Klang, you flat out lied on that one too, as it's actually stopped by Misdreavus since I can Taunt it and wear it down. It's another Pokemon that's hardly viable in the metagame and can't switch in on anything, once again.
  8. ium

    ium adoro during summer
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Sep 16, 2012
    i'm not sure if i'm going to be making the best overall suggestion (might need some testing!), but the most significant weakness that i first saw when looking at this team is carracosta. misdreavus is your best check, followed by kangaskhan, but i'm sure you already know how unreliable that is. now what i'm getting here is that you use lickilicky as a check to certain special attackers and a method to take advantage of dedicated walls. i feel like you can achieve this to a certain extent while being able to have a more solid answer to carracosta by using substitute + toxic seismitoad over lickilicky. carracosta cannot OHKO at +2, eelektross will be 2HKO'd after stealth rock, seismitoad can easily set up a substitute against common variants of alomomola, wartortle, audino, and lickilicky, and it can also get a toxic off on dedicated walls that it cannot beat one-on-one.

    [​IMG] seismitoad @ leftovers | water absorb
    timid nature | 4 def / 252 spa / 252 spe
    substitute / hydro pump / earth power / toxic
  9. TrueKite


    Jun 27, 2009
    I'm not totally sure but aren't Scolipede and Jynx both RU?
  10. Dell

    Dell majestic pride.
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Apr 19, 2012
    Thanks for the suggestion, Ium. I think I'll try it out, but I'm still somewhat iffy about it since it leaves me somewhat more vulnerable to Sun Offense, Ludicolo, and opposing Jynx and Regice. Also, regarding Carracosta, that's one of the reasons that I've built the team way it is, so it can give it as minimal setup opportunities as possible with the combination of hazards, coverage, and checking it with Misdreavus and revenge killers. I suppose that I could run Earthquake on Scolipede to further deal with it, but the damage output with Megahorn makes it hardly noticeable.

    @TrueKite, They dropped to NU during this recent tier shift.

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