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Dune Walkers, featuring Sandslash (#67 on Showdown)

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by ClubbingSealCub, Sep 17, 2012.

  1. ClubbingSealCub

    ClubbingSealCub

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2012
    Messages:
    390
    DUNE WALKERS
    [​IMG]

    Hey there, I'm ClubbingSealCub, and I welcome you to this RMT!

    This team began with me wanting to test out Genesect, and slowly evolved into an offensive sand team featuring Sandslash as the star of the show. I've been using this team since Genesect's release (a little more than a month, I guess) and after much testing and adjustments I believe I have created a solid, offensive-based sand team. Right as I type, this team has peaked #67 on the OU ladder with 1834 rating.

    Rating proof: (open)
    [​IMG]


    EDIT: This team has also peaked a Bronze rating in the Dark Horse Project. Go Sandslash! (individual post here)

    This RMT was created with two main purposes in mind:

    First, showcasing sand's potential - maybe it's just me, but I feel the ladder on PS is ruled over by Rain and Sun teams.
    Hopefully this RMT can spark some interest about sand, and maybe some battlers will decide to try it out.

    Second, and perhaps most important - proving that lower tier mons are not necessarily bad and should not be underestimated.
    In this team, Sandslash rises from the RU tier, aided by his teammates to carry on Excadrill's Sand Rush sweeping legacy and prove his worth.

    Said shortly, this team focuses on weakening Sandslash's checks and counters via VoltTurning, well-placed spores and powerful choiced attacks while retaining weather control.

    [​IMG]BUILDING THE SKELETON[​IMG]
    TEAM BUILDING PROCESS
    As I said before, this team started with Genesect - I wanted to build a team around him and test him out due to his release.
    [​IMG]

    Since I wanted to test out Scarf Genesect in particular, I decided to use him with Rotom-W to create a strong VoltTurn core.
    A defensive Celebi was added as a check to Terrakion/set up sweepers and to add another U-turn user.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    I then noticed a pretty big weakness to weather teams - sun teams in particular. I added Ttar as a means to
    check other weather inducers and Heatran because my Gene-Rotom-Celebi core was pretty weak to Venusaur
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    I then realized that, being a Volt-turn team, I would need a spinner. Huge plus if it benefitted from sand in some way.
    My first thought was Excadrill (or would have been, weren't he banned) I settled for Sandslash, since his DW ability had been released.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    After several hours of testing, Celebi was getting destroyed by Terrakion thanks to X-scissor.
    I swapped Rotom-W out for Slowbro for a more reliable check and Celebi went full offensive.
    Sandslash exceeded my expectations as a sweeper, so I decided to keep testing and making adjustments around that role, not as a spinner.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Slowbro was absolutely killing my offensive momentum (I even tried a choice specs set!) so I went back to Rotom-W.
    After testing a lot of mons (Skarmory, Hippo, Breelom, Forretress - special shoutout to Sigilyph for being a boss), I decided
    to use a physically defensive Amoonguss to check Terrakion and other physical threats. Turns out Spore is godly on offensive teams!
    This is the finalized version of the team
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]


    [​IMG]ONE GRAIN AT A TIME[​IMG]
    A CLOSER LOOK


    [​IMG]
    Kabutops 2.0 (Genesect) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Download
    EVs: 8 Atk / 248 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Hasty Nature
    - U-turn
    - Flamethrower
    - Thunderbolt
    - Ice Beam


    Genesect acts as an offensive pivot for the team. His powerful Download-boosted moves, speed and unpredictability make it a great lead, revenge killer and cleaner in one shiny, purple package. U-turn is, obviously, for scouting and hurting Dark and Psychic types. Thunderbolt and Icebeam form the fabled "BoltBeam" combination, which allows Genesect to snipe a wide variety of targets. Flamethrower completes the coverage, melting steel-types not named Heatran that dare cross Genesect's path.

    The EVs surely need no explanation - almost max SpA for powerful elemental blasts, max speed to make sure not even scarf Hydreigon and those other Genesects that run 94 Atk EVs outspeed / tie me and the remaining 8 in attack for a (ever so sightly) stronger U-turn. These 8 EVs in attack allow Genesect to nab an additional point for free when Download boosts it, so i'm effectively trading 1 SpA for 2 Atk (Thanks to Ban Volturn / Nysyr for sharing this drop of knowledge with me).

    Against rain teams, Genesect tends to be my lead. Thanks to his ability, I can find out what set Politoed is running (Specs/Scarf or Defensive) before it even makes a move, which is a massive benefit.


    [​IMG]
    Excadrill Lite (Sandslash) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sand Rush
    EVs: 12 HP / 252 Atk / 248 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Shadow Claw / X-Scissor
    - Earthquake
    - Stone Edge
    - Swords Dance


    Sandslash - the star of the show - was originally introduced to the team as a bulky rapid spinner. However, due to his awful special defense and less-than-stellar defensive typing, by the time I got a chance to bring him into play safely it was time to SD and clean up anyway. For this reason, I decided to try a full-sweeping set with X-scissor instead of Rapid Spin, and boy, was it worth it.

    Swords Dance is the crux of this set, letting Sandslash reach 598 attack after a boost. Earthquake and Stone Edge create the well-known "EdgeQuake" combination, providing solid coverage and power. Shadow Claw provides great coverage, hitting the Lati twins, Gengar (who is a massive bitch to this team) and other psychic types hard (Thanks to The Great Mighty Doom for the suggestion). X-scissor can be used instead of Shadow Claw to nail Hydreigon and Celebi harder.

    The Speed EVs allow Sandslash to outspeed up to +2 bulky QD Volcarona, which means he's only going to be outsped by Scarf Terrakion, Scarf Latios, and the ever-so-rare Stoutland (and perhaps scarf Keldeo, but I only see this in the suspect ladder). Terrakion and Stoutland are beaten one-on-one (something Excadrill can't do, by the way) thanks to Sandslash's impressive 110 physical defense (which also allows him to take a Mamoswine Ice Shard and KO back!) and Latios is rarely a problem thanks to Tyranitar's trapping prowess.

    Soft Sand was initially chosen because of the great power boost it granted to Earthquake without LO's recoil, but the 30% added damage bonus is just too juicy to pass up - especially considering Gengar isn't OHKOed by Shadow Claw at +0 without it (did I mention he's a bitch to this team?).

    Sandslash may not be as powerful as Excadrill, but he pulls his job off flawlessly.


    [​IMG]
    Super Shroomish (Amoonguss) @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 248 HP / 232 Def / 28 SpA
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 30 Atk / 30 SAtk / 30 Spd
    - Giga Drain (previously Seed Bomb)
    - Spore
    - Clear Smog
    - Hidden Power Ice


    Now you may be thinking - "Physically defensive Amoonguss? Why?" The answer to that question is, simply, Terrakion. Amoonguss never takes more than half from any of Terrakion's moves nor is he OHKOed at +2, so as soon as the fungus comes in, something's getting put to sleep (hopefully Terrakion). Forretress was once used in this spot, and he did a great job, but due to this team's offensive nature he didn't always find time to both set spikes and spin, so Amoonguss got the nod because of Spore to incapacitate key threats and Regenerator, which keeps him healthy enough to tank hits all match long.

    Amoonguss' prowess at taking Terrakion's hits should be enough proof of his physical bulkyness; but even with almost no investment he can still take the ever-prevalent water attacks from rain teams comortambly. Specs Politoed deals 30/40% (Surf / Hydropump) and around 50% with ice beam - which means I can switch in, smack it with a Giga Drain / put it to sleep if it used a water move, or go out to Rotom to take the ice beam and force it out. He wouldn't be able to take on a Tornadus-T Hurricane even with SpDef investment, so meh. Another benefit of being physically defensive is being able to sometimes survive +0 CM Latias Psyshocks who think they can OHKO me and put 'em to sleep. Speaking of bulk, man, regenerator is broken on this thing. It can just get in there, tank a hit, spore something and get out and maybe he's lost 20% HP in the process. What a boss.

    Those 28 SpA EVs may seem a little unorthodox, but they're very helpful against SuBCM Keldeo. Thanks to the investment, I can reliably break its substitute unless Keldeo gets to +3. Spore pretty much forces the enemy to sacrifice one of his pokes, and thanks to Amoonguss' bulk and RotoSect VoltTurns, my dear mushroom always finds opportunities to come in and put something to sleep, which is a huge benefit for an offense-oriented team like this one. Clear Smog beats set-up mons, most notably Toxicroak and Conkeldurr, who think they can just get in my face and Bulk Up because I've already put something to sleep. HP Ice lets me deal great damage to Landorus, Gliscor and some Dragonites.



    [​IMG]
    Yoshi (Tyranitar) @ Choice Band
    Trait: Sand Stream
    EVs: 144 HP / 252 Atk / 112 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Stone Edge
    - Crunch
    - Pursuit

    - Superpower


    Providing my team with sandstorm and packing a mean punch, here's CB Tyranitar. T-tar don't play no games - his massive 603 attack stat means that nothing is going to want to take a neutral Stone edge, Crunch nor Superpower. Even Skarmory is 2HKOed by Stone edge (assuming it hits twice in a row, anyway). Pursuit is, not surprisingly, the most important move. One of the Latis shows its face? Pursuit. Espeon came in on Amoonguss to reflect his spore? Pursuit. Something's low on health and it wants to run away? Pursuit. This is particularly important because, as mentioned in Sandslash's description; Scarf Latios (and Latias, I guess) is the only poke that can successfully put a stop to Sandslash's sweep so getting him out of the picture is always amazing. Getting Tyranitar in safely to bring up sand and smack something hard is nothing particularly hard with this team - Amoonguss' Spore and RotoSect's VoltTurns provide great opportunities for T-tar to come in for free.

    The EVs chosen allow T-tar to reach max attack, which is a great aid in winning the weather war. Neither Toed nor Ninetales want to switch into a Stone Edge - offensive Toeds are OHKOed and defensive ones take around 80% damage. Tales is always KOed, even if T-tar is burned. The 112 speed EVs let T-tar outpace several threats. Mainly, Skarmory (so that I can outspeed it and kill it before it can roost-stall my stone edge), other Ttars and Toeds with no speed investment, so I can kill them before they kill me. The HP EVs allow T-tar to survive a Duggy EQ after rocks, giving it a chance to come out on top (if I had rocks when he got in) or at least get him down to sash so he's not a problem for Sandslash later.


    [​IMG]
    Frogger (Heatran) @ Shed Shell
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 SDef / 8 Spe
    IVs: 0 Atk
    Calm Nature
    - Magma Storm
    - Protect
    - Toxic (Previously Roar)
    - Stealth Rock


    Heatran provides my team with the oh-so-necessary stealth rock and a great answer to sun. Shed Shell has replaced Air Balloon to have a solid answer to the Gene-Trio teams. HP Ground Volcarona can be an issue, but Sandslash outspeeds and can OHKO offensive versions at 1 QD and bulky ones at 2 QD so it's alright.

    Perhaps the only move that needs to be explained in this set is Magma Storm - the main reason I use it instead of Lava Plume is Genesect+Dugtrio. Killing Dugtrio regardless of Focus Sash is a blessing - especially since the rise of Genesect/Dugtrio/Xatu/Victini *cough*damnyoulavosspawn*cough*. The other benefits are forcing my opponent to attack, preventing double switches and the residual damage. This is especially useful in tandem with Protect, which allows me to scout out which move choiced users are going to bust out (most notably SpecsToed and Latios) and switch accordingly, see if Blissey's packing ThunderWave, and other good stuff; while also dealing 12% combined residual damage thanks to sandstorm + the magma burn pretty much for free. Preventing double switches is amazing when combined with T-tar's strong-ass Pursuit, for example when cheeky Espeons think they can come in and bounce back my hazards, or if I want to put one of the pink blobs in a tight position. Toxic adds up to Magma Storm's and sandstorm's residual damage, which is incredibly useful in weakening chansey/blissey that get trapped in with protect.

    The 0 Atk IVs are to minimize confusion damage, since Heatran is my best answer to WoW / Confuse Ray Sableye.


    [​IMG]
    Bosch (Rotom-Wash) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 SAtk
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Volt Switch
    - Hydro Pump
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Pain Split


    Bosch has undergone a few changes (thanks to JoeyBoy's great suggestion!) and is now a lot bulkier on the special side. Volt Switch and Hydro Pump serve the same purpose as before (Rotom doesn't hit as hard now, but he still gets the job done), but the new EVs allow Rotom to reliably deal with special attackers that Amoongus and Heatran just can't (most notably, Sheer Force Landorus).

    Will-O-Wisp provides a source of status, a way to check physical attackers and residual damage, which is always helpful. Pain Split helps Rotom-W stay around longer.

    Previous Rotom-W set; (open)
    Bosch (Rotom-Wash) @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    IVs: 02 Atk / 30 SpD
    Timid Nature
    - Volt Switch
    - Hidden Power [Grass]
    - Trick
    - Hydro Pump


    Rotom-W, Volt switcher supreme has ditched Scizor as his U-turner of choice for this team - but he secretly prefers Genesect anyway.

    Volt Switch provides great momentum and good damage, and Hydro Pump demolishes everything backed up by Specs (and sometimes Rain). HP Grass is used to surprise Gastrodon switch-ins, while also being a more reliable option for breaking Gliscor's sub when he's fishing for misses, since Hydro Pump tends to miss when that happens. HP Fire used to take this spot because of Scizor and Ferro, but Scizor is OHKOed by a specs Hydro Pump and against Ferro I prefer to Volt Switch to find out wether it is specially or physically defensive, and then send in T-tar. Thanks to SR and Volt Switch's damage, Superpower KOes Ferrothorn, since VS deals 15% damage minimum and CB Superpower deals 83%, a KO except with minimum damage rolls and guaranteed KO with SR up. Trick lets Rotom hand his beautiful scarf to Blissey or Chansey, who happen to look fabulous (and become useless) while wearing it.

    The EVs used to be 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Def, but the current ones allow Rotom to outpace a lot of 'mons while functioning as a trick-scarf absorber if needed, ensuring it doesn't become dead weight. 2 Atk IVs are to minimize confusion damage while keeping a full-power HP grass.

    [​IMG]DESERT RAIDERS[​IMG]
    THREATS

    As of right now, the main threats to this team are Sub-Disable Gengar (Dangerous behind a sub, but it can't stop Sandslash now), Rock Polish Sheer Force Landorus (Rotom-W handles this one more reliably now) and Flame Orb Conkeldurr (straight up buttfucks my team with Drain Punch / Ice Punch and can't be put to sleep). It's impossible to check every single threat in the OU metagame, and I decided that SubDisable Gengar, RP Special Lando and Status Orb Conkeldurr are not common enough to guarantee a counter for them on the team. Most of the other main OU threats can be played around, but these three can destroy my team if I don't play properly. Any improvements that may make dealing with these three easier without opening me to some other common threat (or less common threats that I may have missed during playtest) fall beyond my teambuilding capabilities and knowledge of the metagame, so any suggestions are more than welcome.

    [​IMG]TREASURES FROM THE SAND[​IMG]
    IMPORTABLE

    Dune Walkers - Please (open)
    Kabutops 2.0 (Genesect) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Download
    EVs: 8 Atk / 248 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Hasty Nature
    - U-turn
    - Flamethrower
    - Thunderbolt
    - Ice Beam

    Excadrill Lite (Sandslash) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sand Rush
    EVs: 8 HP / 252 Atk / 248 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Shadow Claw
    - Earthquake
    - Stone Edge
    - Swords Dance

    Super Shroomish (Amoonguss) @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 248 HP / 232 Def / 28 SpA
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 30 Atk / 30 SAtk / 30 Spd
    - Giga Drain
    - Spore
    - Clear Smog
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    Yoshi (Tyranitar) @ Choice Band
    Trait: Sand Stream
    EVs: 144 HP / 252 Atk / 112 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Stone Edge
    - Crunch
    - Pursuit
    - Superpower

    Frogger (Heatran) @ Shed Shell
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 248 HP / 248 SDef / 12 Spd
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 30 Atk / 30 SAtk / 30 Spd
    - Magma Storm
    - Protect
    - Toxic
    - Stealth Rock

    Bosch (Rotom-Wash) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 SAtk
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Volt Switch
    - Hydro Pump
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Pain Split

  2. TGMD

    TGMD +Biosci: you both gave me crabs
    is a Tutoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
    Tournament Winner

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    Hey ClubbingSealCub, very nice team, Sandslash is very underrated and I remember that when I was doing The Outsiders Challenge you seemed to be the only other person on the ladder using sand :)

    Anyway, I think Return over X-Scissor is worth a mention on Sandslash. This may seem like a weird choice considering Return offers absolutely no super-effective coverage, but it does offer some nice neutral coverage. Return makes your sweeps more "hax free" alot of the pokemon that you have to resort to using the horrible stone edge to kill can be hit harder and more accurately by Return and all the pokemon you use X-Scissor for are also hit with Return. You miss out on hitting dark types (Hydreigon & Tyranitar), psychic types (Reuniclus, Deoxys-D, Espeon, Alakazam, Latios, Latias & Starmie) and Grass Types (Celebi & Abomasnow) for super effective damage, but as you know all those psychic types can be taken out by Tyranitar and other than Lati@s they're all hit harder by Soft Sand boosted, STAB boosted Earthquake. As you can see only 2 of the grass types in ou are actually hit harder by X-Scissor than they are by Return and one of them is trapped by Tyranitar anyway. For dark types, Tyranitar is hit alot harder by Earthquake. So, you only have the very uncommon Abomasnow and the somewhat common Hydreigon to worry about coverage-wise in return for a move that does more damage to more common pokemon and hits them more accurately like; Rotom-W, Landorus (who is one of your biggest threats and I can imagine you only needing to hit a Stone Edge to finish off a weakened Landorus to win the game but then missing and losing a_a), Breloom etc.

    Shadow Claw over X-Scissor is another good choice as it offers the same coverage as X-Scissor outside of Hydreigon and Abomasnow, but helps with your Sub Disable Gengar problem.

    Anyway I hope this rate helped and GL with the team! Luvdisc'd :)
  3. ClubbingSealCub

    ClubbingSealCub

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2012
    Messages:
    390
    Howdy doom! Thanks for the input.

    I have tried Return before and it didn't convince me - but I'm giving Shadow Claw a chance right now and it's working great! Not only does it alleviate my Gengar problem, it gets the same OHKOes on both Latis. Sandlash can't OHKO Celebi and Hydra anymore, but the rest of my team handles them reasonably well so I'm not too concerned about that.

    Again, thanks!
  4. august

    august get a grip mothafucka
    is a Smogon IRC AOPis a Tiering Contributoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnuswon the 5th Official Smogon Tournamentis a World Cup of Pokemon defending champion

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2007
    Messages:
    3,013
    Honestly, I would forego Soft Sand on Sandslash and just use Life Orb. Life Orb Sand Rush Sandslash is a pretty beastly cleaner late game, especially since you can generally keep sand up handily thanks to Rotom-w + Tar + Genesect putting a lot of pressure on opposing weather. I also don't see why you aren't using Rapid Spin on Sandslash. Rapid Spin Sandslash plays similarly to Excadrill (without excellent typing, and with less Attack :( ). But its honestly pretty useful and i definitely think you should give it a go

    Physically defensive Amoongus honestly does not help much with your Terrakion weakness. SD Rock Gem Terrakion and CB Terrakion both smash Amoongus; therefore it is not a very good Terrakion check. I would actually much rather run Slowbro in that slot. Slowbro beats a lot of random physical attackers that you will probably have trouble with (dd nite if tran is weakened, dd mence etc) while being one of the best terra checks in the game. if you do choose to run slowbro, i highly recommend that you consider Scarf Gothitelle over Rotom-w. Gothitelle does make you slightly weaker to rain, but thanks to Pursuit Tar + Scarf Gothitelle, you can remove Politoed pretty handily with solid prediction, as well as removing Skarm, Gliscor, and other stuff that prevents Sandslash from sweeping.

    I use a Genesect / Sandslash / Gothitelle / Tar core and it wins weather wars like its nobodies business. With that core and Regen Slowbro, you should have similar success

    So in short
    -Life Orb + Rapid Spin on Sandslash
    -Slowbro > Amoongus
    -Give Gothitelle a test over Rotom-w. Definitely not a set in stone change but worth a try
    -TBolt / Psychic / HP Ice / Energy Ball on Goth
    -Lastly, give 80 Spe / 176 SDef / 252 Atk a try on Tar to handle random special attackers better

    hope this helps!
  5. Joeyboy

    Joeyboy Check out my Youtube channel! JoeyboyGames!
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnus
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2010
    Messages:
    1,417
    Hey cool team man, it's nice to see Sandslash get some love.

    Firstly I agree with August's claim for Life Orb over Soft Sand. Though I'd stick with Shadow Claw over any other options.

    So the best thing I can come up with to help against your weakness to RP Landorus is to change Rotom-W's spread or set. Specially Defensive Rotom-W is one of the best, more offensive, checks to Sheer Force Landorus around. By simply changing the set you can adjust to the threat, while maintaining similar synergy. I suggest changing Rotom-W's set to something like this:

    Show Hide
    [​IMG]Rotom-W @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 SAtk
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Volt Switch
    - Hydro Pump
    - Will-O-Wisp / Thunder Wave
    - Pain Split


    You will lose that big bang of offensive power but I believe this set brings a lot more utility to your team, whereas your Specs Rotom-W seemed to be there just because it hit hard. The best Special Landorus can do is attempt to hit two Max Damage Focus Blasts, while Rotom-W just has to click that Hydro Pump button. Rotom-W can still serve many of the same roles on your team though Gastrodon pretty much becomes a full stop to it now; though that's why you have Amoonguss! An alternate EV spread(if you want more speed) could also be: 252 HP / 112 SpD / 140 Spe.

    Good Luck!
  6. ClubbingSealCub

    ClubbingSealCub

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2012
    Messages:
    390
    @August:

    Greetings! First of all - thanks for the rate and the suggestions. However, some of the points you bring up have been explained in the RMT itself.

    - Rapid Spin / Life Orb on Sandslash

    I did start this team with both of those on 'slash. Rapid Spin was ditched in favor of a coverage move because by the time Sandslash got a chane to safely come in and Rapid Spin, usually SD'ing up and going full throttle on the remaining enemy team was the best option.

    Regarding Life Orb - the recoil damage was a big toll on Sandslash back when he had Rapid Spin. Taking 10% damage just to clear hazards is something Starmie can afford, because of Recover, but 'Slash just can't. And, while 'Slash may play similar to Exca, one of Sandslash's advantages over the √úbermole is his ability to take a hit and keep on sweepin' like nothing happened. Life Orb makes this sometimes impossible due to the recoil. Besides, everything that I need to KO with coverage moves (Gengar, Salamence, Dragonite, Latios) is already OHKOed after SR at +2. I honestly can't remember many situations in which I've went "Damn, I wish Sandslash had a Life Orb"; and in those situations an Expert Belt would have sufficed.

    That said - I'll give it a whirl now that Sandslash isn't packing Rapid Spin and see how it goes.

    Edit: Life Orb is definetely a no-no. I've already lost a few matches that I could have won because the LO recoil ended up killing me after taking a Scizor BP or Mamo Ice Shard. Expert Belt works fine, however.

    - Terrakion

    SD Rock Gem Terrakion can OHKO Amoongus at +2 - that much is true. However, I think this Terrakion is not common enough (I've probably seen him twice in all my games) to ditch Amoonguss, since his spore is of great use in pretty much every game. I know Slowbro has Yawn, but that's just not the same. On top of that, Sandslash outspeeds and OHKOes Terrakion with EQ even at +0.

    As for Band Terrakion - yes, he can 2HKO Amoonguss with Stone Edge. But...
    If Amoonguss does get hit for >50% damage with a Stone Edge after switching in I'll know it's a CB Terrakion; so all I have to do is swap to 'Slash, let him take the second Stone Edge and then either OHKO or set up in front of him. To KO 'Slash, Terrakion has to hit 1 SE against Amoonguss (if the first one misses I'll just sleep it) and then 3 against Sandslash, which is rather unlikely (considering he'll only get to fire off 2 at most on Sandslash before he gets KOed, impossible).


    @Joeyboy:

    I'm liking that Rotom-W set! My main gripe with it is the huge loss of power (Standard CB Scizor goes from a clean OHKO after SR to barely a 2HKO :C ) and the inability to trick or absorb incoming tricks.

    However, the added longevity via EVs and Pain Split will surely come in handy against rain teams, since the poor washing machine ends up taking too many ice beams and scalds; and having some sort of status at my disposal will certainly prove useful.

    I'll surely give it a try tomorrow. Thanks!
  7. LilOuOn

    LilOuOn

    Joined:
    May 25, 2012
    Messages:
    646
    I do really love your team ClubbingSealClub! I remeber you because your rated one of my teams, so im going to do the same :D. Once i tried sandslash in OU, making a team a it different than yours, and i can understand that LO really make your rat die faster.


    The Problem:

    Well, lets start. First, i can see weakness to my favorite set of Rotom-W : The Bulky special defense one with a set of WoW | Hydro Pump | Volt Switch | Pain Split. This set does not appears on Smogon, i think that Joey created it, but doesnt matter (the EVs investiment is kinda different to all rotoms set). What i like about this Rotom is that everubody predicts a choiced one, but then i use WoW, destroing opposing Ferrothorns and Gastrodons trying to wall my Soap Eater.


    The Solution:

    Far as you said, you are weak to SubSplit Gengar, RP Sheer Force Landorus and Conkeldur. I would suggest to use Bulky LO Latias>Rotom-W. Latias equiped with LO is a beast, she does not fears about getting burned and can just OHKO Conkeldur, wall RP Special Landorus (wich is very common right now) and hit hard Gengar while walling that Rotom that i told you before.

    Also, as you said, Venusaur hits very hard when T-tar is dead. This latias was made to take a +2 Sludge Bomb from Venusaur in the Sun and then kill with Psyshock. Life orb Draco Meteors just do ridiculous damage.

    Here the set
    Show Hide
    [​IMG] @Life Orb | Levitate
    Modest Nature | 152 HP / 164 SAtk / 88 SDef | 156 Spe
    Draco Meteor | Roost | Psyshock | Hidden Power [Fire or Ice]


    Thats all for now broh! Hope that i helped and good luck!


    ~LilOu
  8. ioliolk

    ioliolk

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2010
    Messages:
    15
    Hey, just a suggestion, but if you need an more useful item for Sandslash, a Ghost Gem would give it the ability to KO all but the most defensive sets of Celebi after SR damage, while you're at +2. It also gives you the ability to KO Deoxys-D 60% of the time with rocks up, and KO the common Jellicent sets (Utility being the most physically bulky onsite). The list of mons it helps nab KOs against goes on and on, but here is a short list. Calcs are at +2, with Ghost Gem boost, by Honko's calculator. Sorry for no full calcs, I'm tired.
    Show Hide
    Jellicent
    Latias (60% chance with SR on Physically Defensive set)
    Deoxys-D (60% chance with SR on Fast Spiker set)
    Rotom-W (Choice Set is KOed after 2 rounds of SR damage, at least as far as my sleep deprived brain can tell)
    Celebi (All but the Physically Defensive set are OHKOed)
    Reuniclus (TR Set OHKOed, other set 2HKOed but can't hit back for OHKO)
    Allows for OHKO of Sub-Disable Gengar and can hit before Sub due to blazing speed.

    Just an idea, I haven't tested this, but take it as food for thought :P
  9. Porii Sames

    Porii Sames

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2011
    Messages:
    545
    Since you helped me with Java (95 on test lmfao) I'm here to rate ;D.

    On Gene, I really, really like running some Attack on mine, since you U-turn at least 50% of the time, why not power that up a little bit? There are places where you can check for particular EVs, but imo run at least i think 80 hits some kill (Latios iirc.)

    On your Slash, I have played Slash teams on DW before which peaked above 1500 on PO so I think I know what I'm talking about when I say that Soft Sand is just kinda eh...personally, running either Life Orb, Lefties, or Lum seems to be the best option. Oh, and X-Scissor for the last slot. And change your Speed EVs around so you can outspeed certain threats (you're kinda wasting what could be used as good HP points).

    Tbh there's not a whole lot that I could see changing...for Amoonguss, if you wanna run Seed Bomb then w/e but running Impish with HP Ice is just...ehh....if anything I would run Relaxed with a Speed IV of 0 for Gyro Balls and you speed tie with TR Reuniclus. Plus your HP Ice gets a bit more powerful. I know outspeeding other Shrooms to the Spore is nice to have, but you're trying to do just a bit too much with one set.

    Your Tran set is just...unusual. Roar doesn't really seem to fit the purpose of the team, outside of hitting Volcarona so you don't get swept by it, and imo you can replace it with Toxic if you still want Volc protection or Earth Power if you want to beat other Trans since you DO run Air Balloon. Also, if Toxic is run, you have a much better chance at actually killing Chansey or at the very least crippling it pretty badly provided it switches into either Toxic or Magma Storm.

    Solid team, solid FWG Sand.

    I'll be honest, I ran a very similar team on DW OU a while back on PO which peaked above 1500.

    Ttar (Bulky Shed Shell)
    Heatran (Specially Defensive)
    Sandslash (Offensive LO Life Orb)
    Genesect (Scarf)
    Amoonguss (Mixed Defensive)

    and over Specs Rotom I had a Taunt Jelly. So yes, this playstyle works very well, Heatran + Amoonguss is fantastic as ever.
  10. ClubbingSealCub

    ClubbingSealCub

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2012
    Messages:
    390
    Alright, here I go again.



    @ LilOuOn:

    First of all, thanks for the rate! I remember rating your team, too bad Conkeldurr didn't stand up to the other suggestions :P

    I tried the Latias set, and it does phenomenally in dealing with Conkeldurr and RP Sheer Force Lando. While it can't come in on Gengar and force him out, Gengar can't risk getting in there either as long as Latias keeps showing her face (and that's not hard to do because of Roost)

    However, the loss of Volt Switch is a big disadvantage for this team's style of play. The specially defensive Rotom-W JoeyBoy posted deals more reliably with RP Special Lando and Gengar, while also providing WoW support and momentum via Volt Switch; and honestly, Lando and Gengar are more commeon than Orb Conkeldurr, so I'll stick with Rotom.



    @ ioiolk:

    Hey there and thanks! "Gem" items are something I had been thinking about (I did try Ground Gem at some point) but I ultimately feel the explosive damage is not worth the consistent damage output for Sandslash, primarily because I'm using him as a sweeper - not a wall breaker.

    From the 'mons you listed, the only one that worries me is OTR Reuniclus, since Latias gets pursuit trapped; Deo-D is OHKOed by CB Crunch + Sandstorm; Amoonguss / Rotom can reliably take Rotom-W's hits; Celebi can be pursuit trapped /U-turned / Magma Storm'd (depending on the set); and Gengar can be OHKOed by running E-belt / LO instead of the gem.

    Besides, OTR Reuniclus is a bitch for all offensive teams, not just mine. Heatran can stall with protect and take a focus blast, and Ttar can OHKO with Crunch after the 4 TR turns are gone.


    @ Porii Sames:

    Howdy! Glad to see your test went well.

    The Atk investment for Gene does sound nice, but I'll have to check the speed tiers, but I think I don't lose out on anything too important anyway.

    I'm not too sure about dropping speed on Sandslash. Currently, with 502, I can outspeed +2 Cloyster (who has the potential to be a massive bitch), Scarf Lando, +1 Mence and even +2 Volca if I somehow end up losing Heatran to an untimely Magma Storm miss as Duggy hits the field.

    I do agree on Amoonguss - I'll try that spread out, it seems way more efficient than what I currently have.

    I included Roar so that set-up sweepers didn't get all up on my grill, but I guess the ones that are really troublesome are Dragons, Gyara and Volca, and Gene beats the first 2 and 'Slash beats the firemoth, so I'll give Toxic / EP a try.

    also don't hesitate to PM me if you need more help with Java :P



    Thanks again to everyone so far for the rates - they're being very helpful!
  11. Stone RG

    Stone RG Megas are broke
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2012
    Messages:
    346
    Lil told me to take a look at this team, and gotta say one of the bests Sand ive seen during the BW 2 era. However, the threats you mentioned are too big of a problem.

    First of all, i would reccomend the Lum Berry on Slash, since if youre worried about T-Spikes, they help out a lot, and its a massive ''FUCK OFF'' to any jirachi that tries to get the para while you set up.

    Second, your team doesn't really need the wall breaking and surprise factor Banded TTar brings, i should say you can switch it for a Chople Berry, take Superpower away for Stealth Rock (and probably put Toxic over rocks on Heatran), since your team doesn't struggle with TTar, as well as putting Ice Beam over Crunch/Stone Edge, whichever you consider less useful, to beat RP Landorus.

    I agree with Lil on putting Latias, since it is yet another thing that stops Sheer Force Landorus, however i would reccomend you i slightly more offensive spread: 188 SpA/252 Spd/76 HP, however if you need another answer to RP landorus (sry if im enfasizing this too much, but its WAY too big threat), you could go for a spread of Calm 252 HP/228 Def/28 SpA, since it can take a hit from Modest LO Landorusafter rocks and smash it with HP Ice, id try Stun Spore over Seed Bomb for that matter.

    Hope i helped :]
  12. Porii Sames

    Porii Sames

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2011
    Messages:
    545
    Did some calcs for Sandlash for speed tiers. All assume +Speed nature.

    248 outspeeds +2 52 Speed EV Neutral Volcarona
    244 outspeeds +1 252 Speed EV Positive Landorus
    240 outspeeds +1 252 Speed EV Positive base 100s
    212 outspeeds +2 252 Speed EV Neutral Cloyster
    200 outspeeds +2 0 Speed EV Neutral Volcarona

    there you go haha
  13. ClubbingSealCub

    ClubbingSealCub

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2012
    Messages:
    390
    Hey Stone! Thanks for the rate.

    Chople Berry is actually a great way to deal with Gengar, since Pursuit OHKOes with maximum attack; but the loss power and solid damage on Banded Superpower is something I'll have to get used to, haha.

    I'm currently trying that Latias spread and it's working o.k. (even if you have a few EVs too many :P), but the loss of Hydro Pump is somewhat troublesome against 3 attacks Heatran, since HPice KOes my Slash upon switching and Ttar can't superpower it. Maybe I-beam / Superpower / Rocks / Pursuit, hm.


    Heya again Porii! I was going to check out the speed tiers but since you were so kind it's not necessary :P thanks! The EV spread is now optimized to 248 and the rest have been shifted into HP.
  14. Ambicrow3

    Ambicrow3

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2011
    Messages:
    63
    Hello Seal. Nice team.My rate (9.9^0) x 1+(-9)+10. Although I don't have a suggestion, I have one thing that may be a problem( sorry for no fix, but you don't really need one). Gothitelle+Scarf Terrakion + hazard support. Gothitelle traps amoongus, and with 2 layers of spikes, terrakion sweeps with CC alone. Well, maybe Sandslash survives. Sorry for the doomsday situation. Great team!










    (8/10) is the answer.
  15. Bl1tzkri3g

    Bl1tzkri3g

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2012
    Messages:
    27
    Have you ever considered running chestorest heatran? It's the same set, but with rest over protect and a chesto berry over a ballon. You don't need protect if you don't need the extra leftovers recovery, and while dropping the air ballon loses it some switch-in oppertunities, often tran comes in on u-turns that pop the ballon, not to mention the benefits of essecially a second tran along with the surprise factor. Just something to try.
  16. garchompubers

    garchompubers

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2012
    Messages:
    14
    All in all I think this is a very solid team, but there are a few things that can be improved. First of all sun teams with dugtrio on them are a huge problem to your team. This is why I would reccomend changing heatran to air balloon.
    As for Rotom Wash i would use the same ev spread BUT make it a resto chesto set, thus maximizing the longevity of this machine. Also note that I would use t bolt instead of volt switch as without spec atk investment rotom needs all the power it can get, and rotom wash uninvested in speed is quite sluggish.
  17. ClubbingSealCub

    ClubbingSealCub

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2012
    Messages:
    390
    Hey Ambicrow! Glad to see you.

    As you said, Terrak/Gothi + Spikes can be a huge problem, but you'll find most spike-setters in OU have little to no time to set them up, since Deo-D gets OHKOed by Ttar's Crunch, Forretress / Ferrothorn can be KOed by Flamethrower / Magmastorm, and Ferro can also be KOed with a combination of SR, VS and CB Superpower. If they can get SR + 2 layers of spikes then I've been outplayed pretty hard and deserve to lose imho :P


    @ Bl1tzkri3g:

    Hey, and thanks for the suggestion, but I have no intention of changing Protect on Heatran for reasons detailed in the RMT (mainly, scouting with Magma Storm trapping). The Air Balloon is actually pretty useful as a switch in to Gliscor / Scarfed Landorus that want to sweep if I don't reveal it early.


    @ garchompubers:

    I'm sorry to say this but it looks like you haven't really read the RMT. For starters, Heatran is already packing an Air Balloon. Second, Dugtrio that try to come in on Heatran get Magma Stormed on the U-turn / switch and KOed through focus sash.

    RestoChest Rotom sounds decent, but I prefer Leftovers to negate sandstorm's residual damage. Having to choose between dealing damage and resting when low on health can make or break a game, and Pain Split sometimes enables me to do both.

    There's absolutely no way I'm dropping Volt Switch. Right now, Rotom-W is not being used for "power" like the older Specs variant was - he's used to provide switches with VS, WoW support and special bulkyness.
  18. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2009
    Messages:
    5,147
    hi

    i've gotta agree with my good bro august, you should probably consider using rapid spin on sandslash. hazards are big part of bw2, and you want them removed so your team can function better. Genesect for example, loves switching into battle multiple times so it appreciates the removal of hazards. Sandslash's one of the better spinners too, since at +2 it's beating most spinblockers. if you're dead set on keeping sandslash' coverage moves, ditch shadow claw, replace it with X-scissor and use a Life Orb. Sandslash's coverage moves are dirt weak, and you need as much power as you can get. X-scissor for example, is capable of OHKOing 252/0 Celebi most of the time with X-scissor when using Life Orb (95.04 - 111.88%) and is incapable of OHKOing 252/0 Celebi without a life orb(72.27 - 86.13%). You shouldn't have to worry about Sandslash' bulk since it naturally resists SR and its used as a lategame cleaner anyway.

    you'll get good mileage out of using slowbro since it can check some of the very best physical attackers and counter terrakion. Amoongus is weak check to terrakion. It's not beating Choice Band or SD Rock gem, and if Sleep clause is in effect, it's not beating any set period (Sub SD Terrakion can seriously wreak havoc when given the chance). it can even somewhat check keldeo with psyshock (watch out for HP ghost / specs hydro pump).

    Your scenario doesn't really happen that often. You're the one who's likely switches Heatran into Genesect, and if it U-turns into Dugtrio Heatran dies. The scenario you described only works if Heatran and Genesect are directly matched up against each other which happens... never. Good players aren't going to directly switch dugtrio into Dugtrio anyways.

    If you're worried about Genetrio, I'd probably stick with a regular heatran set and use Shed Shell. Magma Storm is wicked cool, but you only really want to use it on sun teams since it traps & kills (or weakens) opposing weather starters. Magma Storm just isn't reliable enough on sand teams, you'd get much more out of using the standard Heatran set.

    So most of this post is just corroborating what august set. eh good luck, happy laddering
  19. ClubbingSealCub

    ClubbingSealCub

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2012
    Messages:
    390
    Hi PK Gaming, thanks for taking the time to make such a detailed rate.

    On Life Orb, I have been giving it another chance and the added damage is more important than I have given it credit for, so I'll stick to it. I'll give rapid spin another try.

    I know Slowbro is a great defensive mon, it's one of my favorite mons to use; but without Amoonguss, SD Techniloom 6-0'es my team, since +2 Mach Punch / Bullet Seed can pretty much OHKO my team and Sandslash can only KO with EQ if it's at 40% or less. Amoonguss can usually take a spore and survive boosted hits from 'Loom unless it gets 2 crits in a row or something and then Spore / Clear Smog it. Besides, putting it in place of 'moonguss would break my FWG core, and I'd have to replace Rotom-W with Celebi or something, which would mean I'd have no answer to RP SF Landorus since it gets 2HKOed by HP ice, and SF Lando is a pretty mean mofo.

    Currently trying Shed Shell Heatran. So far so good.

    Again, thanks!

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