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Duo Destruction - Awards!

Discussion in 'BW LC' started by Ray Jay, May 20, 2012.

  1. Ray Jay

    Ray Jay "The sky's the limit, okey-dokey!"
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    Introduction

    Hello, fellow LC players!​

    If you are familiar with the Beat that baby Pokemon thread, then you know that the thread focused on countering a threat and then countering the counter ad infinitum. This was good for a while, but eventually locks into a repetitive cycle in which a.) nothing inventive happens or b.) some wise guy posts a Pokemon you wouldn't even recognize from its sprite.

    In an attempt to maintain the activity from that thread while having discussion more pertinent to the metagame, we are going to start a little competition. This competition will see who can consistently demonstrate knowledge of the metagame.

    The Goal

    The object of the game is to post the best possible Pokemon that counters the duo posted by myself at the start of every round. By posting 1 or 2 Pokemon that counters the duo, we will obtain knowledge of the metagame and you will gain points. Another aspect of the game is to prevent the other players from getting points, and this is done by proving in this thread that their post does not counter the duo as well as they say it does. Without further ado, let's play

    Duo Destruction

    The basic concept is that we want to discover ways to break common cores in the metagame without real difficulty. Currently, there aren't many people who believe any specific threats in LC are broken, but there are certainly combinations that are tough to beat without proper team support.​


    Round 1: Burn Baby Burn! (open)
    We'll start off with an easy one. The first core you want to crush is:
    [​IMG]

    Chinchou @ Eviolite ​

    Calm | Volt Absorb​

    evs: 76 HP / 132 Def / 228 SpD / 60 Spe​

    move 1: Scald​

    move 2: Heal Bell ​

    move 3: Rest​

    move 4: Sleep Talk​

    [​IMG]

    Larvesta @ Eviolite ​

    Adamant | Flame Body​

    evs: 76 HP / 236 Atk / 156 Def / 36 Spe​

    move 1: Morning Sun​

    move 2: Flare Blitz​

    move 3: Will-O-Wisp / Wild Charge​

    move 4: U-turn​































    Round 2: Fight or Flight (open)

    [​IMG]
    Scraggy @ Eviolite
    Jolly | Shed Skin
    evs: 236 Atk / 36 SpD / 236 Spe
    move 1: Dragon Dance
    move 2: Drain Punch
    move 3: Crunch
    move 4: Hi Jump Kick
    [​IMG]
    Drifloon @ Flying Gem
    Naughty | Unburden
    evs: 36 HP / 200 Atk / 8 Def / 40 SpA / 200 Spe
    move 1: Acrobatics
    move 2: Shadow Ball
    move 3: Hidden Power Fire
    move 4: Destiny Bond

    Round 3: What the Hail? (open)

    [​IMG]
    Snover @ Choice Scarf
    Naive | Snow Warning
    evs: 36 HP / 24 Atk / 36 Def / 184 SpA / 196 Spe
    -Blizzard
    -Giga Drain
    -Ice Shard
    -Hidden Power Fire
    [​IMG]
    Staryu @ Eviolite
    Timid | Natural Cure
    evs: 36 HP / 200 SpA / 240 Spe
    -Hydro Pump
    -Psychic
    -Rapid Spin
    -Recover

    Round 4: Smell Ya Later! (open)

    [​IMG]
    Stunky @ Eviolite
    Careful | Aftermath
    evs: 92 HP / 92 Atk / 60 Def / 188 SpD / 4 Spe
    move 1: Sucker Punch
    move 2: Pursuit
    move 3: Crunch
    move 4: Explosion
    [​IMG]
    Mienfoo @ Choice Scarf
    Adamant | Regenerator
    evs: 236 Atk / 36 Def / 236 Spe
    move 1: Hi Jump Kick
    move 2: Stone Edge
    move 3: U-turn
    move 4: Knock Off

    Round 5: Trio Trample (open)

    Bonus round let's get it?
    [​IMG]
    Hippopotas @ Eviolite
    Impish | Sand Stream
    evs: 52 HP / 100 Atk / 212 Def / 100 SpD / 20 Spe
    Impish Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Slack Off
    - Roar
    - Stealth Rock
    [​IMG]
    Drilbur @ Life Orb
    Adamant | Sand Rush
    evs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 212 Spe
    - Earthquake
    - Rock Slide
    - Shadow Claw
    - Swords Dance
    [​IMG]
    Timburr @ Eviolite
    Careful | Guts
    evs: 76 HP / 196 Atk / 236 SpD
    -Bulk Up
    -Drain Punch
    -Mach Punch
    -Payback

    Round 6 - np: What Makes You Beautiful - One Direction (open)

    So often, when you're teambuilding, the goal is not to beat a set but all of the sets a Pokemon can potentially run. This round, you must prove that your core can handle all of the "viable" sets that these Pokemon can run. Just what those are is up to the competitors.
    [​IMG]
    Misdreavus @ ?
    ? | ?
    evs: ?
    -?
    -?
    -?
    -?
    [​IMG]
    Porygon @ ?
    ? | ?
    evs: ?
    -?
    -?
    -?
    -?

    Round 7: A Leep of Faith (open)

    [​IMG]
    Lileep @ Eviolite
    Calm | Storm Drain
    evs: 228 HP / 144 Def / 28 SpA / 64 SpD / 16 Spe
    move 1: Stealth Rock
    move 2: Energy Ball
    move 3: Recover
    move 4: Toxic
    [​IMG]
    Slowpoke @ Eviolite
    Bold | Regenerator
    evs: 116 HP / 236 Def / 36 SpA / 116 SpD
    move 1: Scald
    move 2: Psychic
    move 3: Slack Off
    move 4: Fire Blast



    Logistics

    The rules:
    • You are to post 2 Pokemon or 1 Pokemon that counter(s) the above core single handedly. Needing SR, Rapid Spin, or Dual Screens support greatly hurts your argument and will likely prevent you from getting points.​
    • Post the complete set(s) of your Pokemon, including EVs, nature, item, and moveset.​
    • Do not include a Pokemon in your post that has already been used this round.​
    • Post reasoning and how you will play your Pokemon against the above core. If you can't prove to us that your Pokemon counter(s) the above, then you will not get points for it. ​
    • Feel free to question someone's post with reasoning / calcs if you believe they are incorrect, this could prevent them from getting points.​
    • People will get points at the end of the round based on if I feel their Pokemon really does counter the above core.​
    • If you use animated sprites I will cut you.​
    Scoring:​
    • If you post 1 Pokemon that counters the above core, you will get 2 points for that round.​
    • If you post 2 Pokemon that counters the above core, you will get 1 point for that round.​
    • If your post does not actually counter the core as deemed by the community, you will get no points. I will have the final say on this. ​
    Thanks for your time! Good luck competitors! A new round will be posted every 5 days to a week in order to ensure adequate time to formulate a core and tear down the others' cores.​

    The final results:

  2. Chieliee

    Chieliee

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    Timburr (F) @ Eviolite
    Trait: Guts
    EVs: 76 HP / 196 Atk / 236 Def
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SpA)
    - Bulk Up
    - Mach Punch
    - Drain Punch
    - Rock Slide


    Standard timburr. Beats Chinchou, appreciates burn, fucks up larvesta all day with rock slide. Flare blitz only 2hko's ver rarely. 19 Atk vs 24 Def & 25 HP (120 Base Power): 10 - 13 (40.00% - 52.00%)


    EDIT: I had calcs for a more defeinsive spread which i forgot to put in, but they;re there now. I guess it's still beaten by two flare blitz+scald, but it can come in on any of the other moves.
  3. Rowan

    Rowan not a professor
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    [​IMG]

    Wooper @ Eviolite
    Trait: Water Absorb
    EVs: 236 HP / 76 Atk / 156 Def
    Impish Nature (+Def, -Sp.Atk)
    - Recover
    - Earthquake
    - Waterfall
    - Toxic

    Okay.
    With water absorb, Chinchou can't actually do anything to Wooper, whilst wooper hits back hard with STAB Earthquake, an easy 2HKO.
    Larvesta can do 28% max with Flare Blitz, meaning wooper can easily recover stall. Waterfall 2HKO's Larvesta , although a burn could be an issue. This is why toxic is good for the last spot as it can stall out Larvesta; the opponent can't switch Chinchou in to heal Larvesta as Chinchou fears the KO from EQ.
  4. Nanoswine

    Nanoswine

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    Chinchou @ Eviolite
    Trait: Volt Absorb
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Sp.Def)
    evs: 236 HP / 212 Def / 60 Spe
    - Scald
    - Hidden Power (Grass)
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk

    An opposing Restalk Chinchou with a more physically defensive spread that is carrying HP Grass can really do a number on these two. It easily can switch in and stall out both of them, since neither can 2HKO it barring crits, and it can KO them back while Restalking.

    EDIT: Larvesta's U-Turn does 25.9% - 37%, so It still avoids a 2HKO even if Larvesta is the last mon.
  5. MarceloDK

    MarceloDK

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    [​IMG]

    Lileep (F) @ Eviolite
    Trait: Storm Drain
    EVs: 228 HP / 144 Def / 28 SAtk / 64 SDef / 16 Spd
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Energy Ball
    - Hidden Power [Rock]
    - Recover


    Probably the best counter of this core. You can just OHKO Larvesta with HP Rock and you're not OHKO'd by U-turn. Chinchou can't touch her at all, leaving a free turn to recover U-turn damage. Stealth Rock not only supports the team, it will ensure that you are going to break the core without risking any predictions.


    Laversta's U-Turn vs. Lileep = 14 - 18 (53.85% - 69.23%)
    Lileep's HP Rock vs. Larvesta = 28 - 36 (121.74% - 156.52%)
  6. Ray Jay

    Ray Jay "The sky's the limit, okey-dokey!"
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  7. Elevator Music

    Elevator Music
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    [pimg]77[/pimg]
    Ponyta @ Eviolite
    Ability: Flash Fire
    EVs: 156 Def / 156 SpA / 76 SpD / 116 Spe
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Sunny Day
    - Fire Blast
    - SolarBeam
    - Morning Sun

    Chinchou and Larvesta have got nothing on this. With Flash Fire, Larvesta can barely touch Ponyta, doing 14.29% - 23.81% with U-turn and 28.57% - 38.10% with Wild Charge. In return, Ponyta is guaranteed to 2HKO or out of the sun. With a Flash Fire boost, it even OHKOes Larvesta in the sun. Solarbeam deals 48.00% - 64.00% to Chinchou, which is a 2HKO 95% of the time. It can also switch in on Chinchou, though I don't know why you would want to, as a Scald outside of sun deals 57.14% - 66.67%, while in sun it only deals 28.57% - 38.10%. Note that for both of those, the max damage will only occur 2.56% of the time, meaning Ponyta is likely not 2HKOed by a combination of those attacks. This spread only hits 18 speed because it's probably not all that effective against 19 speed Pokemon...

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
  8. Trakyan

    Trakyan

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    This is the best counter i can think of, in fact, im pretty sure its the best you can get.

    Diglett @ Oran Berry/Focus Sash
    Ability: Arena Trap
    EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 236 Spe
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Protect/Substitute
    - Sucker Punch
    - Rock Slide
    - Earthquake

    Edgequake with STAB on the quake spells trouble for this duo and no switching to avoid it with arena trap. First two slots could use any sub/protect or sucker punch combo each with their own purpose. You could even throw in stealth rock to mess up larvesta.
  9. spuds4ever

    spuds4ever

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    Well, diglett can't exactly switch in on larvesta's flare blitz, will-o-wisp, or u-turn and can't switch in on chinchou's scald either all of which are OHKOes except for will-o-wisp. Seems a pretty shaky counter if you ask me.

    Anyway, THE MUNCHINATOR HAS COME 2 DESTROYZ U

    [​IMG]
    Munchlax @eviolite
    EVs: 156 Atk, 116 Def, 236 SpD, Adamant
    Thick Fat
    -Curse
    -Body Slam
    -Rest
    -Sleep talk

    Survives a 2hko from u-turn (not that it actually matters) and takes a pittance from all the other moves, curses up, rests to get rid of any burns, and pounds the anglerfish and pyromaniac-bug with STABed body slam.
  10. iss

    iss happily ever after
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    Can we actually post cores and not just turn this into a clone of the other thread? I know the point system rewards posting a 1v2, but can we actually try to make this interesting?
  11. Ray Jay

    Ray Jay "The sky's the limit, okey-dokey!"
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    It seems quite a few people have gotten in their submissions for this round, please begin to argue why others' posts are not indeed counters! Keep in mind participants may edit their posts at any time!

    Notable problems thus far, consider adding a Pokemon or posting w/ more calcs or reasoning:
    -Timburr: Doesn't it struggle switching in to Larvesta? What do you do if a Stone Edge misses?
    -Chinchou: Can we have calcs of how much a Larvesta U-turn does in the case of a last mon scenario?
    -Lileep: Can it actually switch in on Larvesta?
    -Diglett: Can it actually switch in on anything?
  12. MarceloDK

    MarceloDK

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    Ok, the Lileep's set I posted actually can't switch on Larvesta, since Flare Blitz + U-turn is 1hko most part of time. But heh, I just realized that I posted the standard set, more sp. def based. I would like to change the EVspread and the Nature. So, updating my set:

    [​IMG]

    Lileep (F) @ Eviolite
    Trait: Storm Drain
    EVs: 228 HP / 224 Def / 28 SAtk / 16 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Energy Ball
    - Hidden Power [Rock]
    - Recover

    Hm, I can't calc damages atm (without damage calculator in this pc), but i'm p. sure that now her can take a Flare Blitz + U-turn from Larvesta (I'll edit my post when I calc). Chinchou still can't touch her, and Energy Ball is here to hurt him. Hm, HP Rock 1hko Larvesta and Stealth Rock will ensure that you are going to break the core without risking any predictions.

    Laversta's Flare Blitz vs. Lileep = 8 - 12 (30,76% - 46,15%)
    Laversta's U-Turn vs. Lileep = 11 - 16 (42,3% - 61,53%)
    Lileep's HP Rock vs. Larvesta = 28 - 36 (121.74% - 156.52%)

    Ok, she has a 80% chance (24 times in 30 damage combinations) to survive a Flare Blitz + U-turn, and she have to take the damage from both just 1 time (switching in Larvesta). Can we consider this as countering? xD
  13. Chieliee

    Chieliee

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  14. Trakyan

    Trakyan

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    I meant to mention trying to predict a morning sun/rest/heal bell to switch into with diglet. Morning sun on larvesta is pretty easy to guess if stealth rock is on the feild, chinchou is likely to rest if its on low health so yeah prediction is key but if you have that diglet disposes of them without question. A slow u turner can ease prediction, maybe chimchar who cant be burned by flame body, any u turner would work if the team with diglet+u turner had a cleric.

    EDIT: Looks like lileep could be KOed by larvesta with flare blitz+u turn and if outside factors can be considered then what are the odds of it 2HKOing with hail/status/hazards(one layer of spikes or SR?), though timburr doesnt look like it can switch into flare blitz safely without risking a 2HKO, not to mention stone edge has terrible accuracy.
  15. blarajan

    blarajan i was born under the same star as shakeitup
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    Please hold the applause...I got it. Presenting the spookiest core ever made. Getting ready to stop these niglets in their tracks.

    [​IMG]

    Misdreavus (M) @ Eviolite Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 36 HP / 36 Def / 76 SAtk / 76 SDef / 236 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Heal Bell
    - Pain Split
    - Shadow Ball
    - Taunt

    [​IMG]


    Frillish (M) @ Eviolite
    Trait: Water Absorb
    EVs: 236 HP / 196 Def / 76 SDef
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Surf
    - Shadow Ball
    - Will-o-Wisp

    - Recover

    Now, I know what you're thinking. "Why didn't I think of such a sexy core?" I agree. Now Frillish on its own already gives a giant FUCK YOU to these two, taking absolutely nothing from Scald (DUHHHH) while completely and utterly raping Larvesta. I mean....

    236 Atk Larvesta Flare Blitz vs 236 HP/196 Def Eviolite Frillish: 24% - 28%

    236 Atk Larvesta U-turn vs 236 HP/196 Def Eviolite Frillish: 12% - 16%

    0 SpAtk Frillish Surf vs 76 HP/0 SpDef Eviolite Larvesta: 65.22% - 91.3%

    On the off chance that it has Wild Charge, this big nigga Misdreavus just says: FUCK YOU

    236 Atk Larvesta Wild Charge vs 36 HP/80 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 30.43% - 39.13%

    236 Atk Larvesta Flare Blitz vs 36 HP/80 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 56.52% - 69.57%

    So in other words, unless you're a lucky scrub, you can never kill Misdreavus with a lucky Wild Charge / Flare Blitz.

    Assuming you used Wild Charge / Flare Blitz, you would have accumulated either 1 or 2 HP points of recoil from Wild Charge, and 4 from Flare Blitz. So you only have 17 or 18 HP left to deal with, assuming you hadn't taken any previous damage or gotten smashed by Surf. Misdreavus does 9 damage with Shadow Ball unless it rolls min...MEANING YOU ARE DEAD.

    And let's just assume Wild Charge catches us off guard and hits our poor Frillish =(

    It won't kill.

    236 Atk Larvesta Wild Charge vs 236 HP/196 Def Eviolite Frillish: 48% - 64%

    What's that? Wild Charge + Flare Blitz + Stealth Rock will never kill a full health Frillish unless you roll two max damages? Yeah???

    So while Frillish already rapes this core on its own, Misdreavus provides insurance. Misdreavus helps scout for Wild Charge and heal Frillish up from any burns it might get on the switch, which would allow Wild Charge to win (yes, I'm even being nice and assuming a set with Will-o-Wisp AND Wild Charge, which is ridiculous).

    But primarily, Heal Bell / Pain Split Misdreavus scares Chinchou. Heal Bell recovers Scald burns, while Pain Split punishes it for using rest. Heal Bell heals Frillish from any burns it might get from Larvesta, which could potentially allow Chinchou to outstall Frillish with Rest and switches to Larvesta to mitigate any Special Defense drops from Shadow Ball. Furthermore, Taunt prevents Larvesta from using Morning Sun, or Chinchou from even getting a Rest off.

    Frillish on its own rapes the two. Misdreavus provides insurance allowing it to never lose. Plus the two make a kick ass core for other things, too, and don't lose to too many things, aside from Scraggy / Murkrow / Timburr, I can't really think of anything.

    Taunt Misdreavus prevents set-up, and guarantees it comes out on top against walls such as Hippopotas, Lileep, this Chinchou, Ferroseed, etc, without hazards coming up or a harmful status move. A harmful status move wouldn't even be problematic--LOL HEAL BELL. Losing out on HP Fighting is not a huge loss if it prevents opposing Scraggy from setting up, Murkrow from getting a constant stream of Substitute / Roost, and allowing Frillish to Recover and Brave Bird damage, preventing Timburr from getting Bulk Ups, stopping Shell Smash, beating Dragon Dance, etc. Granted, reliable Dark-type STAB moves still suck, so w/e. But with Taunt / Heal Bell / Pain Split, with Recover Frillish on the side burning shit, you really outstall and defeat like 95% of the metagame. Taunt / Heal Bell might seem redundant, and the loss of HP Fighting might seem harsh, but it's both a team player and useful for stalling things, along with a good offense with Taunt, allowing it to beat many things it would not be able to.

    Responses:

    Show Hide

    236 Atk Larvesta Flare Blitz vs 76 HP/156 Def Eviolite Timburr: 48% - 60%

    Timburr is 2HKOed 100% of the time with Stealth Rock in play, so it cannot switch in to this baby, thus preventing it from being a true "counter."

    Flare Blitz + U-Turn in tandem do, on average, 6 + 9 HP each, a total of 15.

    Wooper gets burned by Larvesta with one switch in, manages to recover up, etc, but can never again be at full health when it switches out (loses 3 HP per burn, so will be at 22 HP max when it switches out, 21 if there was Stealth Rock in play.) Wooper switches in to absorb a Flare Blitz from Larvesta at a different point in the match, and takes both Flare Blitz damage along with Burn damage (now at 13 HP max, 12 with Stealth Rock in play). U-Turn + Burn at this point will KO. The fact that you can roll max damage at any point, increasing the damage I presented, that when you use an attacking option or Toxic, you are NOT using Recover and thus will not fully regain HP, that Wooper is slow as balls and will generally never be at full health, that a layer of Spikes is not entirely uncommon, and that Wooper is giving up its main niche (Unaware) in order to do a shoddy job at countering these two Pokemon, especially since it can get worn down and beaten by Larvesta under common battle conditions, makes it a bad counter.

    236 Atk Larvesta U-turn vs 236 HP/212 Def Eviolite Chinchou: 25.93% - 37.04%
    3-4 hits to KO

    Last mon Larvesta will win if Chinchou does not Sleep Talk Scald twice, as Chinchou outspeeds Larvesta. Chinchou has 27 HP. Larvesta's U-Turn does 9 damage aside from min or max. Chinchou uses Rest, Larvesta uses U-Turn. Chinchou uses Sleep Talk, Larvesta uses U-Turn. Chinchou uses Sleep Talk, Larvesta uses U-Turn. 9 + 9 + 9 = 27.

    0 SpAtk Chinchou Scald vs 76 HP/0 SpDef Eviolite Larvesta: 65.22% - 78.26%

    So Chinchou will actually LOSE 8/9ths of the time. Also, physically defensive Chinchou is just a shitty set.......
    236 Atk Larvesta Flare Blitz vs 228 HP/144 Def Eviolite Lileep: 38.46% - 50%

    Generally does 10 or 12 HP, 12 being most frequent.

    236 Atk Larvesta U-turn vs 228 HP/144 Def Eviolite Lileep: 57.69% - 69.23%

    Does 15 HP aside from max damage.

    Lileep cannot tank a Flare Blitz and then a U-Turn. Take Burns + Stealth Rock + possibly Spikes into consideration, and you've got yourself a bad counter, as it cannot switch into Larvesta at all as it just gets raped by Flare Blitz + U-Turn or is scared of Will-o-Wisp (3/4ths of its moveset)


    This Ponyta, with min HP investment, has 21 HP. Thus it takes 5 HP from Stealth Rock. It switches into Larvesta with Stealth Rock in play, who then uses U-Turn. U-Turn does, generally, 4 HP. Thus, your "counter" Ponyta now has a Chinchou in on it while it only has 12 HP left. Ponyta now has to use Sunny Day, else Chinchou will always destroy it with Scald, doing 12 HP minimum while Morning Sun only heals 10 HP. If it usesSunny Day, then Scald is reduced to 6 HP minimum, with 9 HP for a max damage, putting Ponyta in range to be killed by a critical hit. If Ponyta had switched into Stealth Rock before, then a single max damage from U-Turn or Scald in this case would kill it, seeing as it had taken 5 damage per Stealth Rock switch in. The presence of Spikes or Toxic Spikes at all just makes handling Ponyta even easier. U-Turn reduces its use as a counter as, even if it switches into U-Turn, it has to risk the Scald critical hit every single time in order to do ANYTHING to Chinchou. Since this is a risk it has to make, 100% of the time, to beat Chinchou, and Chinchou has Rest, while Larvesta also has Morning Sun, the Sun turns and Morning Sun from Ponyta can be stalled out, letting the core end up victorious.

    Can't switch in at all, Rock Slide can miss 10% of the time, etc. Stealth Rock breaks focus Sash, and Oran Berry does not prevent it from getting OHKOed by Scald or Flare Blitz. A Will-o-Wisp neuters Diglett, and if Larvesta uses U-Turn, it's definitely not switching in to Chinchou.

    Oops my calc fucked up. I don't really have much I can say, other than it is slow as balls, eats Stealth Rock, and a resting Munchlax is just guaranteed set up for half of the metagame. I would never touch this set with a 30 foot pole, it's just LEGITIMATELY bad.

    So 20% of the time it loses straight up, not taking hazards or Burn damage into consideration? Got it.



    My own core is the only one that can switch in to everything thus far and retaliate, using the recoil from Flare Blitz (or Wild Charge) to its advantage, and healing up from the problems of passive damage. Furthermore, Misdreavus's access to Levitate makes it the only Pokemon thus far that can switch in without fear of Spikes or Toxic Spikes (which effectively neuters half of these "counters"). The combination of Frillish and Misdreavus not only shut down RayJay's pair, can heal up the damage to prevent Stealth Rock / max damage / passive damage from being a bitch, and win against both members of the pair 1v1 (granted, Misdreavus requires optimal conditions against Larvesta, but can still win), but also handle a huge amount of metagame threats while supporting each other in their dominance.

    Plus fuck you Mienfoo, I have two Ghost-types.
  16. Trakyan

    Trakyan

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    lol, misses 10% of the time... so does HJK and zen head butt, i dont see them shunned upon, and then we have stone edge. A spinner(or some method of keeping hazards off) is on nearly every team and neither chinchou or larvesta outspeed so unless you switch diglet into flare blitz or scald(which i specificaly mentioned NOT to do) in which case you must be stupid diglet can beat them. Note the fact larvesta looses half its HP with SR, most would mornign sun at this point since if they switch out they die(i.e. u turn is unusable), if they flare blitz its pretty much dead they will morning sun. I also believe mentioning using a slow u turner to ease prediction with diglett, bulky mienfoo could work with low speed nature and and cleric or a chimchar etc or maybe something that doesnt care to much about the burn like bulky natu which baits chinchou and u turns in its face to diglett for a checkmate scenario and can take a flare blitz i beleive with max defense or maybe even without max.

    Though i admit unless we are aloud to factor in some other imaginary teammates for larvesta and chichou i cant put much fault in your core aside from its pursuit bait and complete set up for scraggy, hard counters the duo though.
  17. spuds4ever

    spuds4ever

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    Staryu | 993 | 21.761%

    Natu | 628 | 13.762%

    And the 1200 stats:

    Staryu | 446 | 40.805%

    Natu | 219 | 20.037%

    Yeah, so realistically, you've got some way of keeping of hazards on little over half the teams around, and what guarantee is there that you won't have any hazards on your side when you need to switch diggy in?

    I'm still not convinced by diglett.

    Lileep will also potentialy lose if it switches in on a FB and then has to suck a u-turn as you said yourself Marcelo and in my experience, larvesta aren't typically that hesitant to spam FB. I'd say it's definetely a check, but not a counter perhaps.
  18. iss

    iss happily ever after
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    There are so many problems with your argument that I really don't even know where to begin. You've just said that you expect hazards to not be on your side and yet Stealth Rock is on the opponent's side? In addition, your counter needs to be able to switch in on and defeat the core. Scald, U-turn, and Flare Blitz all wreck Diglett.

    Also, please work on your spelling and grammar. Right now, your posts are practically unreadable.
  19. Nanoswine

    Nanoswine

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    I suppose I miscounted rest turns (n__________n)

    In that case, you have to take into account in your play that Chinchou needs to be awake to take on Larvesta if it becomes clear that Larvesta will be the last mon. As long as Chinchou is kept awake and has 19+ HP, it can simply 2HKO Larvesta with Scald, and since Larvesta is the last mon, it won't matter if Chinchou is left with low HP. So yes, my set does beat both one-on-one, and also counters the core as a whole even if Larvesta is the last mon, as long as you play smart.

    Also, I would never use your Missy + Frillish core, but that doesn't have any bearing on whether it beats Chinchou + Larvesta or not.
  20. blarajan

    blarajan i was born under the same star as shakeitup
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    Keeping these slow Pokemon awake and healthy is a lot harder than you guys think. With burn damage, hazard damage, the fact that they are slow, the fact that damaging weather effects are so common, chip damage, etc, it is really really really difficult to keep that Munchlax or to keep that Chinchou at full health. While conceivably if the ONLY thing you used it for were these Pokemon and never switched it in to anything else, that might be the case, it is 99% not going to be like that, as it will have to switch in at various points in the match. At that point, if say you switch into a Larvesta U-Turn or Flare Blitz, or get hit by Scald and get burned, or something like that, including Stealth Rock, you've already lost a lot of health. Factoring in all of these things, you've got yourself Pokemon that HAVE to force themselves into rest. Given the very very low offensive output or "scary factor" from these Pokemon, they're legitimately doing nothing to hurt the opponent while asleep.

    I understand that the given assignment is to specifically counter these Pokemon, but given that one of them has U-Turn, it is rather hard to say "ignore the other four since it can only U-Turn into Chinchou" or something like that.

    So in the case of Chinchou (or Munchlax, even), U-Turn from Larvesta might lead to something more threatening. It is impossible to contain the core if one of the main moves in it is U-Turn. That is why in my dual Pokemon, I tried to include Pokemon that both absolutely neutered these two under all conditions, while also being a rather good defensive duo for the rest of the metagame, given the inevitability of encountering other Pokemon with U-Turn. Granted, I can't check some things, the Pokemon that I lose to (aside from Scraggy), cannot safely set up on me at all, given Will-o-Wisp or Taunt.

    With my core at least, my opponent cannot abuse the free turns from U-Turn given the laughable offenses and easy set up opportunities from the majority of the above Pokemon (aside from the previously aforementioned Pokemon).
  21. Ray Jay

    Ray Jay "The sky's the limit, okey-dokey!"
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    For the record, if your core requires assumptions, it won't get points. What I mean by that is that if your core requires your team to have a spinner, then you need to include a spinner as one of the Pokemon in your core. If you post Drilbur, you would be expected to pair it with Hippopotas as well (unless Drilbur countered the core outside of sand). Stealth Rock and Spikes can be used with your calculations, but if your core can't do it without Stealth Rock and Spikes then it WILL be called into question.

    Just my opinions on a few of the entries so far:

    Corkscrew's current entry (Wooper) is pretty solid for one Pokemon. At the moment, it seems that it does indeed counter the core as it beats the core most of the time. Blara pointed out that Wooper would lose in the case of a critical hit, but I would have to point out that blarajan himself noted that hax beats his own core. Wooper can always switch in on Chinchou and take 0 damage, which is also something the other entries have not capitalized (with the exception of Lileep), and it faces little difficulty against Larvesta without the hax.

    Elevator Music's entry, Ponyta, is almost a hard counter to the core if hazards are off the player's field. Perhaps consider pairing Ponyta with a spinner, do not merely assume you have one on the team.

    Trakyan's entry assumes that you have Stealth Rock up and that you can come into the core without being hit by an attack. Diglett itself does not ensure either; another Pokemon must be added to the core that baits a.) Rest from Chinchou and b.) Morning Sun from Larvesta; otherwise, it is impossible to say when Diglett has a safe switch-in.

    Keep discussing, this round will end Friday night at 11:59 EST.
  22. Elevator Music

    Elevator Music
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    Cool, so I can run Staryu ?_? I mean, I kind of get what you're saying that Stealth Rock wears down Ponyta and it makes it shaky to deal with Larvesta and Chinchou (particularly Chinchou), but shouldn't that argument work equally well in reverse? Larvesta epitomizes Stealth Rock weak, and so does Chinchou really, because you won't always be awake to Rest, and when you're asleep you won't always select Heal Bell with Sleep Talk. I guess you can assume that the core has some sort of support against SR in the form of Staryu/Natu/whatever "because almost every team packs that"... but if that's the case, why can't we assume that as well??? But yea, I will concede that spin support is necessary for Ponyta (because its necessary for almost every pokemon weak to SR and then some others too!!). I don't think it's that big of a deal though, nor do I think the fact that Ponyta has to risk Scald crits is that big of a deal, mainly because that's not exactly a rare occurrence in the case of a counter (see: Mienfoo vs. Scraggy, pretty much every Gyarados counter vs. Gyarados last gen, etc etc etc etc).

    Nah, I'll just assume that I have a spinner. I get that Ponyta pretty much needs spin support in able to switch in on Chinchou, but I don't think a spinner should have to be explicitly stated when its very clearly implied that the core will have one... :s

    sidepoint:
    Huh? As long as Stealth Rock is on the field, Larvesta can always abuse a free U-turn, for pretty much the reasons you explained. I suppose since you resist U-turn it's slightly less effective, but not much...

    That being said, I do think your duo is probably the most solid that has been posted, because not only does it counter the Larvesta/Chinchou core in a vacuum, it can reliably shut them down outside of that vacuum as well.
  23. blarajan

    blarajan i was born under the same star as shakeitup
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    I did not ever include critical hits in the mention of Wooper, though a critical hit is entirely possible. What does happen is if Wooper is burned, it is indeed a shoddy check to the duo. In fact, a burned Wooper can only 4HKO Larvesta, doing 6 HP on average. If this is the case, then even if Wooper Toxics Larvesta, it can outstall some with Morning Sun, and switch to Chinchou to use Heal Bell, and then get a Rest off. Burned Wooper can only 2HKO Chinchou with Earthquake, so Heal Bell ==> Rest is entirely possible. Also, keep in mind that every turn that Wooper does anything but Recover, it is tanking more and more Burn damage. Repeated Flare Blitz + Burn will force Wooper's recovers quite quickly, while it can only use up a Morning Sun at half that rate. The possibility of hax in this war IS possible--and in this case, it is more likely for Larvesta as it can do some fancy switching with Chinchou. Plus, switching between Waterfall / Earthquake, or switching in a sleeping Chinchou on Toxic, or ANYTHING, can force even more Recovers and make Wooper possible to deal with. Not the best way to handle it, sure, but after a Burn, it becomes entirely possible.

    I DID mention hax when discussing Ponyta, however. Ponyta is a bit tricker as it is immune to Will-o-Wisp (and Flare Blitz). However, due to Ponyta's status as a grounded Fire-type, it takes a ton from entry hazards. If Ponyta switches into a Larvesta U-Turn with Stealth Rock in play, and the Larvesta user switches to Chinchou, then Ponyta is at the risk of death even in the sun with a Chinchou critical hit. But that's not even the main thing--the main thing is its weakness to entry hazards. As Morning Sun only has 8 PP, and since Ponyta is weak to Stealth Rock, it will have to use Morning Sun each time it switches in in order to keep even 75% of health when it comes back out. With all of this, the passive damage becomes crucial to defeating Ponyta, as U-Turn to Chinchou or switching to Larvesta to sponge a Solarbeam or Chinchou a Fire Blast, etc, allows Sun turns to be outstalled or Morning Sun to be forced. It's not necessarily (or at all) RELIABLE, but once again, with entry hazards, especially a single layer of Toxic Spikes, but even just a layer of Spikes, this becomes incredibly possible.

    Though, I was indeed more harsh with Wooper, Ponyta, Chinchou, and Munchlax, as they were the most difficult ones. The only one I can't say anything to is Munchlax, aside from it being an insanely shitty set.

    Congrats to the users who mentioned those Pokemon as they indeed do a good job. My only complaint with this activity and some of the mentions are that they are too case specific. No one is going to run a Water Absorb Wooper, as Unaware is its best and only boon to the metagame. Physically defensive Chinchou is pretty bad, while Crolax is just asking to be set up on. That Ponyta is honestly the only decent set of the four, and with the increasing popularity of Sand in Little Cup, and that Ponyta is just better as a physical attacker than as a purely special attacker, that is slightly annoying as well. I probably would have preferred a mixed set here, but whatever.

    I still think when giving counters, it is important not to make it too case specific, and focus on mentioning Pokemon or cores that can both defeat the assigned core, while also performing their roles admirably in other cases, and working against other Pokemon or situations. Case specific sets are just..that. They don't really teach us anything, except that User A can mold a Pokemon perfectly to beat a Pokemon whose set he already knew. Anyone can do that--I think the more rewarding and more difficult part of these challenges is tweaking sets or doing cool things with Pokemon, such as Taunt / Heal Bell Misdreavus, while still keeping a GOOD Pokemon that can use those tweaks in order to do other things well.

    IE, just because Curse / Rest / Leech Seed / Iron Head Ferroseed completely shits on whatever mentioned core, you shouldn't SAY it since it's a bad Pokemon no one would ever use aside from this paradigm.
  24. Trakyan

    Trakyan

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    Ok, i just realised we need moves like rapid spin/heal bell in the actual core so....

    Chimchar (M) @ Eviolite
    Trait: Blaze
    EVs: 4 HP / 52 Atk / 84 Def / 244 SDef / 108 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - U-turn
    - Taunt
    - Slack Off

    Diglett @ Oran Berry
    Ability: Arena Trap
    EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 236 Spe
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Substitute
    - Protect
    - Rock Slide
    - Earthquake

    This core counters the duo pretty well. Stealth rock messes up larvesta as well all know and pretty much forces it to morning sun as u turn is suacide and flare blitz isnt much better. Taunt stops sleep talk and morning sun(yeah, larvesta dies here-i mean, what can it do??). U turn gets diglett in when chinchou comes to sponge the hit/threaten out chimchar(Chinchou dies here) so diglett gets in same time as chinchou while trapping and KOing with STAB earth quake.

    Chimchar is rather odd at first glance, stray speed and defense EVs etc. The speed EVs let it outspeed most bulky wall like mons(restalk chinchou, ferroseed etc.) while the defense EVs let it take hits pretty well, mostly invested on the special side due to water attacks from staryu, chinchou and co. Attack and HP EV had no other place to go. The set is simple, stealth rock was explained along with its general utility, same with taunt and u turn. Slack off is the odd ball which lets it shrug off minor damage and entry hazards along with helping to keep larvesta in check instead of dieing to u turn spam. Larvesta carrying wild charge which will hit chimchar are just giving diglett a switch in. Alternatively to ease things further chimchar could be given minimum speed so it under speeds them(it can take scald) and lets diglet come in un harmed.

    Digletts set is pretty simple, protect blocks them fake out, sub abuses sucker punch and blocks it and also abuses choiced electric attacks while edgequake is edgequake. EVs are obvious.

    This also works pretty well to get rid of alot of troublesome mons with chimchar underspeeding some stuff and u turning over to diglet to trap and KO. Pretty good tactic for getting frailer mons in, slow u turn/volt switch. This works with mienfoo too but it doesnt like flame body.
  25. iss

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    Say Chinchou switches in on Stealth Rock. If you U-turn out, you're faster, so Diglett eats a Scald and dies. So basically, you're forced into sacrificing Chimchar. Now you bring Diglett in, and Earthquake does 72 - 96%, while Chinchou Scalds you for 100 - 133.33%. Not to mention that your Chimchar set is pretty horrible and has no real use aside from trying to counter this core. Even if you ran Life Orb Diglett, Earthquake only OHKOes Chinchou ~60% of the time. Add in the chance of Rock Slide missing, and you only have slightly better chances than a coinflip with more efficent sets against this core. Your current sets always lose barring a critical hit.

    Please make sure your counter works before posting it.

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