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Duo Destruction - Awards!

Discussion in 'BW LC' started by Ray Jay, May 20, 2012.

  1. Trakyan

    Trakyan

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    i meant u turn as it switches in, never mind, the core isnt good so could it be droped out?
  2. AlphaJolt

    AlphaJolt

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    If it's not to late, I'm just going to go ahead and post the obvious that everybody else missed.

    Drilbur @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sand Rush
    EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 212 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    -Earthquake
    -Rock Slide
    -Shadow Claw
    -Rapid Spin

    Drilbur outspeeds both Chinchou and Larvesta and can OHKO with Earthquake and Rock slide respectively.
  3. Nanoswine

    Nanoswine

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    It can revenge each of them, but it certainly can't counter the core. There's no way Drilbur would switch in on either of them because Scald or Flare Blitz will do massive damage (not good on a mon carrying LO, especially if you rely on it for spinning). Take into account that both moves have a chance to burn, and Drilbur certainly isn't coming in on either of the two.
  4. Ray Jay

    Ray Jay "The sky's the limit, okey-dokey!"
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    I apologize, but it seems that I have not made myself entirely clear / have made a few things ambiguous.
    What I guess wasn't said that's confusing people is that the core should be able to single handedly take on the core. It's obviously a hypothetical situation, but then again, all theorymonning is.


    This round ends tonight, so let me just give you a quick checklist of what cores won't score. If you only have one Pokemon, you won't score if:
    • Your Pokemon underspeeds and is 2HKOed upon switching in to either Pokemon in the core.
    • Your Pokemon only revenge kills the core, it does not truly counter it.
    • Your Pokemon has a high chance of losing based on luck (a good example would be needing to hit 2 Stone Edges in a row)
    • Your Pokemon relies on hazards on the other side of the field or spinning on your side, but you have not included a hazard setter or spinner in your core.
    If you have two Pokemon, you won't score if:
    • Neither Pokemon can easily switch in to one member of the core.
    • Your core relies on hazards on the other side of the field or spinning on your side, but you have not included a hazard setter or spinner in your core.
    Trakyan, don't worry, this is the first round and we are all obviously still learning. Don't worry about deleting your entries anyone, continue to discuss until tonight, when Round 1 will end and the new core will be posted. Then you can all feel free to enter again.
  5. iss

    iss happily ever after
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    [​IMG]
    Chinchou @ Eviolite
    Modest | Water Absorb
    evs: 132 Def / 232 SpA / 140 Spe
    move 1: Surf
    move 2: Thunderbolt
    move 3: Hidden Power Grass
    move 4: Heal Bell

    Water Absorb Chinchou is not a gimmick. With Staryu and defensive Chinchou usage so incredibly high, being able to run an offensive Chinchou that can safely switch into Staryu (at least a few times until Water Absorb is discovered) as well as non-Volt Switch Chinchou is actually pretty cool. Trace Porygon beats opposing Chinchou up anyways, so Water Absorb is actually now a viable choice on Chinchou.

    Anyways, on to actually countering the core. The opposing Chinchou obviously can't do anything here- Hidden Power Grass does 32 - 40%, and while it's only a 1/16 chance of doing that 40%, combined with the chances of a critical hit, it's practically impossible for the opposing Chinchou to stall this set out (according to Honko's calculator, it's a 61.55% chance to 3HKO, and Chinchou would have to avoid that 8 times). Larvesta only 3HKOes (29.16 - 41.66%) with U-turn (Wild Charge does less), while Chinchou outspeeds Larvesta and cleanly 2HKOes with Surf (78.26 - 104.34%) Hydro Pump can be used for a guaranteed OHKO (104.34 - 130.43%). Heal Bell stops any shenanigans Larvesta could try with Will-O-Wisp and stalling with Chinchou. Even if Stealth Rock is down on our Chinchou's side, U-turn still never 2HKOes without a critical hit. Thunderbolt is there because Chinchou really doesn't need any other moves to beat this core.

    The core needs a large amount of hax to defeat Chinchou. Larvesta needs one critical hit in two U-turns, which is a ~12% chance (yes, I did do (15/16)^2). The only other way I could forsee Larvesta beating Chinchou is a max damage Flare Blitz, a burn, and a max damage U-turn.

    Before anyone asks, yes, Water Absorb Chinchou is released. Personally, I think this Chinchou, Elevator Music's Ponyta, and blarajan's Misdreavus + Frillish are the only true counters in this thread. Munchlax technically beats the core, but it is such a horrible set personally I don't think it should count.

    6/24 edit: this set is actually illegal in the bw metagame, although legal in the bw2 metagame
  6. Rowan

    Rowan not a professor
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    I suppose an alternative Wooper could use scald/surf so the move doesn't power down when burnt. This would be pretty crappy though as Wooper has dreadful special attack.
    The alternate would be this:

    Wooper @ Eviolite
    Trait: Water Absorb
    EVs: 236 HP / 76 Atk / 156 Def
    Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
    - Recover
    - Earthquake
    - Scald
    - Toxic

    Although as I said using scald would have no use other than countering this core better and the odd burn on something. Although Ray Jay did state that it was a hypothetical situation so I think I'd be okay to submit it?

    EDIT: @iss
    Chinchou was already nominated by Nanoswine, sorry. Although your set is a very good counter to the core.
  7. iss

    iss happily ever after
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    Nanoswine's Chinchou was not a counter, as it undersped Larvesta and was therefore 3HKOed by U-turn before it could 2HKO with Scald. Therefore, a counter with Chinchou had not been posted by the time I posted my set.

    E: Your revised Wooper still can't win, as Scald will practically never 2HKO Larvesta, meaning that Wooper will eventually lose to burn and U-turn damage as blarajan explained earlier.
  8. Rowan

    Rowan not a professor
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    According to my damage calculator, scald 2HKO's Larvesta all the time.
  9. Nanoswine

    Nanoswine

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    You can't post a mon that has already been used. I used Chinchou, it doesn't matter if you don't think it's a counter.

    Also my Chinchou does outspeed Larvesta ?_?
  10. iss

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    It isn't a counter, as blarajan explained in a post earlier. I guess I'll wait for clarification from Ray Jay on this issue.
  11. Ray Jay

    Ray Jay "The sky's the limit, okey-dokey!"
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    In general, you shouldn't use a Pokemon that has been used yet at all.

    They are different sets, however, and this is the first round, so we'll let it slide. In the future, the policy will be that if a Pokemon has been posted, it is off limits, regardless of whether it counters or not. This is because the person has time to edit their entry as the round progresses.

    0 SpAtk Wooper Scald vs 76 HP/0 SpDef Eviolite Larvesta: 52.17% - 65.22%
    2 hits to KO
    ?
  12. Ray Jay

    Ray Jay "The sky's the limit, okey-dokey!"
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    Points - Round 1

    chieliee - Timburr (open)

    Timburr cannot act as a switch-in to the core as it is oft 2HKOed by Larvesta. Timburr scores 0 points.

    Corkscrew - Wooper (open)

    Some people pointed out that Wooper loses to a burn, which is correct some of the time. However, Wooper still has the incredible potential to come in on Chinchou and shuts down Larvesta the vast majority of the time. There is most definitely still the potential for Wooper to get crushed early game, however. As this makes Wooper more of a late game utility counter to Chinchou with the ability to rock Larvesta, it does not score the full two points. Wooper earns 1 point.

    Nanoswine - Chinchou (open)

    Nanoswine has posted a set that does indeed counter the core; however, there are opportunities for it to lose. This is due to last mon situations with Larvesta, along with the potential for it to struggle against U-turn and Sleep Talk getting stalled out in general. For this reason, this Chinchou scores only 1 point.

    MarceloDK - Lileep (open)

    Lileep barely misses out on countering the core due to taking just enough damage from the combo of Flare Blitz + U-turn. Although it can come in on a potential U-turn from Larvesta, you have to see the hypothetical situation where it would have to Recover after the U-turn, giving Larvesta a free switch-in again. Lileep situationally wins late game, but unfortunately, it barely misses on being considered a true counter. Lileep scores 0 points.

    elevator_music - Ponyta (open)

    Although the potential is there for Ponyta to solo this core (especially when the opportunity arises to come in on Larvesta), it does not reliably due this if the core has proper team support. Ponyta needs Rapid Spin support in order to work properly, and em opted to not include that to try to get the full 2 points. Never assume you have spin support or SR support. Your Pokemon / core should be able to SINGLE HANDEDLY take the opponents. For this reason, Ponyta earns only 1 point.

    trakyan - Diglett + Chimchar (open)

    Unfortunately, some people have pointed out that this core does not really work the way you intended it to. This core earns 0 points.

    spuds4ever - Munchlax (open)

    RestTalk Munchlax is a pretty obscure set, and it actually has the potential to be stalled out if lady luck isn't smiling on you that certain day. I would've really liked to see another Pokemon here, as saying Munchlax solos the core is a slight falsehood as it struggles to do so over time and when factoring in crits (especially in a last case Larvesta scenario, which is more than probable considering the nature of the set). Munchlax earns 1 point.

    blarajan - Misdreavus + Frillish (open)

    The defensive presence of this core is able to take virtually anything that the opposing core can throw at it, including the useful complete immunity to Chinchou possesed by Frillish. The potential is there for Frillish to lose to hax; however, this is negated by the introduction of a defensively-oriented Misdreavus set that can tear apart the weakened core. This core scores 1 point.

    AlphaJolt - Drilbur (open)

    First, a note: as Hippopotas was not included as a teammate, Sand Rush MAY NOT be factored in. Drilbur may work if the core is the last thing remaining on the opposing team if it can live a hit from either Chinchou or Larvesta (as AlphaJolt didn't support his post with some calculations, we don't really have a way of knowing his thought process). Furthermore, it simply cannot switch into the core repeatedly, something a Pokemon needs to be able to do in order to be considered a true counter. If another Pokemon was included (even something that's super defensive)it would've been much more solid. Drilbur earns 0 points.

    iss - Chinchou (open)

    Chinchou can switch-in on either Pokemon and is completely immune to Chinchou's moves. While there is the option that it could lose to hax, this would be exceptionally rare, and hax is not accounted for in most counters (ie, Mienfoo loses to Scraggy hax). This Chinchou scores 2 points.


    I was admittedly pretty lenient this round, next round I will be much harsher.

    Something I didn't tell you I was including is Bonus Points. Bonus Points are awarded based on individual performance in the round in a myriad of categories. This round, the winners are:

    Most Creative: Water Absorb Wooper (Corkscrew, +1 Point)
    Best Arguer: blarajan, +1 Point

    Without further ado, the current leaderboard!
    ------------------------------------------------
    blarajan: 2
    Corkscrew: 2
    iss: 2
    elevator_music: 1
    Nanoswine: 1
    spuds4ever: 1
  13. Ray Jay

    Ray Jay "The sky's the limit, okey-dokey!"
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    Round 2

    Good luck in Round 2 contestants!

    Round 2: Fight or Flight (open)

    [​IMG]
    Scraggy @ Eviolite
    Jolly | Shed Skin
    evs: 236 Atk / 36 SpD / 236 Spe
    move 1: Dragon Dance
    move 2: Drain Punch
    move 3: Crunch
    move 4: Hi Jump Kick
    [​IMG]
    Drifloon @ Flying Gem
    Naughty | Unburden
    evs: 36 HP / 200 Atk / 8 Def / 40 SpA / 200 Spe
    move 1: Acrobatics
    move 2: Shadow Ball
    move 3: Hidden Power Fire
    move 4: Destiny Bond

    Stipulation: Mienfoo may not be used
  14. blarajan

    blarajan i was born under the same star as shakeitup
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    [​IMG]
    Shelmet (M) @ Eviolite Trait: Shell Armor
    EVs: 116 HP / 236 Def / 156 SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Acid Armor
    - Toxic
    - Recover
    - Bug Buzz
    [​IMG]
    Magnemite @ Eviolite
    Trait: Magnet Pull
    EVs: 156 HP / 36 Def / 240 SAtk / 76 SDef
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Thunder Wave
    - Volt Switch
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Flash Cannon

    Now this is a cool little pair that I whipped up that happens to beat the above 100% of the time while also doing a good job handling other pertinent metagame threats, by posing strong offense, spreading status, and providing amazing bulk and great defensive typing in this metagame.

    Let's beging with how it 100% beats the above. First of all, all that needs to happen is for Shelmet to hit +2 after an Acid Armor and then it wins. Drifloon already can't always OHKO Shelmet with a Flying Gem Acrobatics, as shown by:

    240 Atk Flying Gem Drifloon Acrobatics vs 116 HP/236 Def Eviolite Shelmet: 78.26% - 104.35%

    In fact, it can only OHKO with a max damage roll.

    Without a Flying Gem, Acrobatics can only OHKO Shelmet after Stealth Rock with a max damage roll:

    240 Atk Drifloon Acrobatics vs 116 HP/236 Def Eviolite Shelmet: 65.22% - 78.26%

    Now cut these calcs in half and you get the damage output when Shelmet is at +2.

    Show Hide

    240 Atk Flying Gem Drifloon Acrobatics vs 116 HP/236 +2 Def Eviolite Shelmet: 52.17% - 65.22%

    240 Atk Drifloon Acrobatics vs 116 HP/236 +2 Def Eviolite Shelmet: 39.13% - 52.17%


    I think that's pretty impressive. However, Hidden Power Fire also barely tickles:

    40 SpAtk Drifloon Hidden Power Fire vs 116 HP/156 SpDef Eviolite Shelmet: 34.78% - 43.48%, never 2HKOing, and only 2HKOing after Stealth Rock with consecutive max damage rolls.

    Scraggy, on the other hand, is absolutely wrecked by this bad boy.

    236 +1 Atk Scraggy Crunch vs 116 HP/236 Def Eviolite Shelmet: 30.43% - 43.48%

    236 +1 Atk Scraggy Hi Jump Kick vs 116 HP/236 Def Eviolite Shelmet: 26.09% - 34.78%

    So after an Acid Armor, Scraggy can't do anything but get Toxic stalled.

    So now we see...if we get Shelmet at +2, we win this battle pretty much, and it can very easily do so against Scraggy. Toxic avoids Destiny Bond from Shelmet, and when Scraggy gains no HP back from Drain Punch since Shelmet is boosting the same way, Toxic will eventually win, even if the Scraggy user is the luckiest Shed Skin recipient ever.

    The problem lies in that Acrobatics. Unfortunately, Shelmet can't always assume it's at full health, so SOMETHING has to sponge that Flight Gem Acrobatics.

    200 Atk Flying Gem Drifloon Acrobatics vs 156 HP/36 Def Eviolite Magnemite: 14.29% - 14.29%

    Yup, it doesn't even care. Furthermore, Magnemite is not even 2HKOed by Hidden Power Fire.

    40 SpAtk Drifloon Hidden Power Fire vs 156 HP/76 SpDef Eviolite Magnemite: 38.1% - 47.62%

    In fact, unless you roll max damage, Magnemite can easily live a Flying Gem Acrobatics + 2 Hidden Power Fire + Stealth Rock from full health, making it a perfect stop to this Drifloon.

    Now let's look at the situations, taking these calcs into consideration.

    1) Drifloon comes in for free, and can do whatever it wants for one turn.

    Solution: Switch in to Magnemite to sponge any hit. Then, Thunder Wave. Thunder Wave will cripple Drifloon, so even if it is twice as fast, it only hits 8 Speed with Thunder Wave. If it uses Hidden Power Fire the turn you Thunder Wave, you outspeed and then Volt Switch to Shelmet to defeat Scraggy. If it uses Destiny Bond, just spam Thunder Wave at it until you get a free turn (it gets fully Paralyzed, tries to attack, or runs out of Destiny Bond PP). Then, do the same...Volt Switch to Shelmet in order to defeat Scraggy. This is the worse situation, as Magnemite has the opportunity to come out a bit banged up here, but not insanely badly. There is no chance of Magnemite losing here, as this scenario even occurs if Hidden Power Fire or Acrobatics gets a Critical Hit. It would be unfortunate if BOTH crit, but at that point, no counter is really going to win.

    2) Scraggy comes in for free, and can do whatever it wants for one turn.

    Solution: Switch to Shelmet, Acid Armor, and beat both at +2. Continue using Acid Armor, as hax cannot defeat you due to Shell Armor. Toxic Stall + Bug Buzz chip at Scraggy, and Toxic stall Drifloon to avoid Destiny Bond. This is the optimal situation, as neither of your two Pokemon take any damage whatsoever here.

    The cool thing is this duo is that it fares pretty well against much of the rest of the metagame, as you have an awesome bulky pivot in Magnemite, and Toxic Stalling in Shelmet! They're incredibly bulky, and otherwise do a decent job. Shelmet can easily dispatch of Mienfoo, Croagunk, Timburr, and Scraggy, an impressive feat for a single Pokemon. Furthermore, it can Toxic stall standard Misdreavus, as Shadow Ball only 3HKOes, and doesn't even 2HKO after Stealth Rock unless you get max damage both times. It can outstall standard walls such as Hippopotas, Slowpoke, and Porygon due to Toxic. Hell, it isn't even 2HKOed by a Snover's Blizzard including the two turns of Hail damage! The majority of the Pokemon that Shelmet has issues with (Murkrow, Drifloon, Bronzor, Ferroseed, Pawniard, etc), are even handled by Magnemite! Magnemite switches into most of those with ease and can handle them by either trapping them and KOing with Hidden Power Fire or forcing them out, which is pretty cool. The problem with both of them is that they are both slow; however, Thunder Wave can handle problem Pokemon like that, assuming they are hit on the switch. It helps that Thunder Wave is relatively unexpected, making it easier to nail that.

    There are some Pokemon that these two share problems with. Tirtouga, Larvesta, Darumaka, Ponyta, and Staryu are the biggest problems, as they can all either OHKO or 2HKO both of these Pokemon; fortunately, none of them like paralysis, and all of them take insane damage from Volt Switch, OHKOing or 2HKOing the bunch.

    The above pair handles the provided core in all situations, while also acting as an interesting defensive duo that manages to handle the majority of the metagame incredibly well. They also help each other by taking out each of their own defensive threats through their own unique roles and abilities.
  15. Nanoswine

    Nanoswine

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    At first glance it looks like Koffing can take these two on pretty well since Scraggy isn't carrying Zen Headbutt, here's a set and I'll edit in reasoning and calcs (maybe a partner) later.

    Koffing (M) @ Eviolite
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 196 HP / 76 Def / 236 SDef
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Pain Split
    - Clear Smog
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Sludge Bomb
  16. Trakyan

    Trakyan

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    Ok, im hoping to do better here.

    I'm posting this cause it needs more love.

    Nosepass (M) @ Eviolite
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 196 HP / 156 Def / 116 SDef / 40 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Pain Split
    - Stealth Rock
    - Volt Switch
    - Toxic

    Mankey (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Vital Spirit
    EVs: 116 HP / 196 Atk / 196 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Close Combat
    - Seed Bomb
    - ThunderPunch
    - U-turn

    Ok, nosepass walls drifbloon to hell and back and can even take a hit from scraggy(boosted drain punch i believe). Plan here is simple. If drifbloon comes in nosepass can take that acrobatics and force it out, toxic helps avoid destiny bond while SR shortens its life span if it switches out, it can volt switch out of scraggy on a predicted switch or as it DDs. Nosepass takes the hit since it is slower and can survive even a +0 HJK without needing sturdy(survives with one HP anyway, but who would outright attack such perfect set up fodder?). Mankey outspeeds and OHKOs +1 scraggy with scarf and close combat, it also KOes drifbloon with some prior damage(SR) or high damage roll, it outspeeds once nosepass forces drifbloon out. Mankey basically counters the core, nosepass is there to get rid of flight gem speed boost and set SR to garrantee the KO on drifbloon.

    And if im aloud to post two cores(cause im not to certain on the above cores resilience to the expectable barrage of fault finding) then....

    Nosepass (M) @ Eviolite
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 196 HP / 76 Def / 196 SDef / 40 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Pain Split
    - Stealth Rock
    - Power Gem
    - Toxic

    and

    Koffing (M) @ Eviolite
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 196 HP / 236 Def / 76 SDef
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Clear Smog
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Sludge Bomb

    Nosepass still walls drifbloon and limits it life span majorly with toxic+SR. Koffing here walls scraggy, resisting its strongest attack and its method of healing while taking neutral damage from crunch. Clear smog stops it boosting and sludge bomb is that STAB that wears down scraggy, ResTalk is chosen over pain split as pain split generally means koffing goes down with scraggy or even scraggy may end up beating it. Sleep talk gives a 1/3 chance scraggy wont keep any boosts its acquired, if it doesn't select clear smog then its either sludge bomb or rest, rest sucks but sludge bomb does damage and carries a nice 30% poison rate for some possible extra damage if shed skin doesn't act on the same turn.

    scratch that last bit, turns out someone beat me to it.
  17. Chieliee

    Chieliee

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    damnit i was going to post resttalk coil ekans or something but then i realized that it doesn't really work, gdi

    I'm posing Vullaby+Chinchou in a sec

    Vullaby (F) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Overcoat
    EVs: 244 Atk / 196 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Brave Bird
    - U-turn
    - Faint Attack
    - Toxic

    Chinchou (F) @ Eviolite
    Trait: Volt Absorb
    EVs: 52 Def / 232 SAtk / 220 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Thunderbolt
    - Volt Switch
    - Surf
    - Thunder Wave

    If drifloon comes in: Switch to chinchou, take the hit(s), volt switch. If they switch out to scraggy the turn you send chinchou in, also volt switch.

    If they stay in turn 2, drifloon is dead and brave bird can take out scraggy. IF they switch out, Vullaby outspeeds and ohko's scraggy/2hko's drifloon. if they sac scraggy, sac vullaby to drifloon in order to give chinchou a safe switch-in.

    If Scraggy comes in send in Vullaby. You outspeed +1 scraggy, and can live one Drain Punch. Brave bird to kill scraggy, then just use brave bird again to damage drifloon, and then chinchou can finish. First use Thunder Wave in order to prevent destiny bond. Whenever drifloon attacks you're free to kill it the next turn.

    If i'm correct, Vullaby will never face a +2 Drifloon with Scraggy still alive. This means that it's not possible for the opponent to use destiny bond to finish vullaby, and then beat chinchou with scraggy.

    it's pretty simple, really. The other 6 moves are just fillers i guess.

    I'll post all the relevant calcs later.

    Vullaby Brave Bird vs:

    Scraggy: 15 Atk vs 19 Def & 21 HP (120 Base Power): 20 - 26 (95.24% - 123.81%)
    Drifloon: 15 Atk vs 10 Def & 26 HP (120 Base Power): 19 - 24 (73.08% - 92.31%)

    Chinchou Volt Switch vs Drifloon: 16 Atk vs 9 Def & 26 HP (70 Base Power): 26 - 32 (100.00% - 123.08%)

    Drifloon Shadow Ball vs Chinchou: 13 Atk vs 18 Def & 24 HP (80 Base Power): 7 - 9 (29.17% - 37.50%)

    Flying Gem Acrobatics vs Chinchou:15 Atk vs 16 Def & 24 HP (165 Base Power): 8 - 10 (33.33% - 41.67%)


    too lazy to do the rest.
  18. iss

    iss happily ever after
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    yeah this doesn't work

    Earlier Counters (open)
    Looks good. Volt Switch wrecks this core ridiculously hard.
    Here's the best case scenario for you:
    Code:
    Theoretical situation:
    
    Turn 1
    Koffing switches in
    Drifloon uses Acrobatics, consumes Flying Gem (min roll, 9 damage)
    
    Koffing 14/23
    Drifloon 26/26
    
    Turn 2
    Drifloon uses Acrobatics (min roll, 7 damage)
    Koffing uses Pain Split
    
    Koffing 17/23
    Drifloon 16/26
    
    ---
    
    Turn 3
    Drifloon uses Acrobatics (min roll, 7 damage)
    Koffing uses Will-O-Wisp
    
    Koffing 10/23
    Drifloon 14/26, burned
    
    Turn 4
    Drifloon uses Shadow Ball (min roll, 6 damage)
    Koffing uses Pain Split
    
    Koffing 9/23
    Drifloon 7/23
    
    Turn 5
    Drifloon uses Shadow Ball (min roll, 6 damage)
    Koffing uses Sludge Bomb (average roll, 7 damage)
    
    Koffing 3/23
    Drifloon KOed
    
    Turn 6
    Scraggy switches in
    Scraggy uses Crunch (min roll, 7 damage)
    
    Scraggy 21/21
    Koffing KOed
    You still lose. I don't think it's possible for Koffing to win without getting multiple Sludge Bomb crits.
    Scraggy +0 Hi Jump Kick vs Mankey: 109.09 - 127.27%

    Nosepass can't do anything to Scraggy, so Drifloon can just switch to it. Even if you were to predict the switch to Drifloon and use ThunderPunch, Scraggy would come in and get two Dragon Dances on your switch to Nosepass and switch back to Mankey, meaning it outspeeds and kills you. Scraggy can just win anyways by using Hi Jump Kick rather than Dragon Dance.
    This works. One thing you should mention though is that in a last mon Drifloon vs Chinchou scenario, you need to spam Thunder Wave to stall out Destiny Bond. Once Drifloon attacks, you outspeed due to paralysis and kill it with Thunderbolt.

    Actually, Vullaby gets OHKOed by Hi Jump Kick on the switch after Stealth Rock (69.56 - 91.3%), so I think this loses.
  19. spuds4ever

    spuds4ever

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    692
    I'd like to reserve croagunk, will get to the core on monday or later today:

    Well, I'm probably not getting any points for originality, but w.e, here we go.

    Edit: spruced up the core now. SHOULD work...

    [​IMG]
    Croagunk @eviolite
    EVs: 132 HP, 108 atk, 196 def, 36 SpD, 36 Spe
    Dry Skin, Impish
    -Drain Punch
    -Sucker Punch
    -Bulk Up
    -Substitute
    [​IMG]
    Aron @Fight Gem
    EVs: 196 Atk, 196 SpD, 116 Spe
    Rock Head, Adamant
    -Head Smash
    -Superpower
    -Automotize
    -Earthquake

    Pretty simple core really and actually works quite well in reality if you add in a levitater and give it a few tweaks (i.e, always use life orb over fight gem in a proper battle). Croagunk switches in easily on scraggy taking maximum 34% from hi jump kick and 6% from SR. Croagunk then either takes another 34% from HJK or the opponent switches to drifloon. Either way, croa bulks up.

    If scraggy is in, it won't be able to KO due to the defense boost with HJK so croagunk uses drain punch if you want to play safe, though the opponent will have to be really gutsy/stupid to keep scraggy in. Anyway, for the sake of argument, say he switches drifloon into the drain punch. Croagunk is now sitting at minimum 26%, and this is when your wee bit of prediction comes in. If you predict your opponent will destiny bond, get a sub up, spamming sucker punch for a bit can deter it from using acrobatics. With a sub up, just spam sucker punch. if scraggy comes in, d-punch. If the opponent continues this method (which will only work if SR isn't up on their side) to stall out sucker punch PP, switch in aron on the drifloon double switch. If you're not confident in doing this, you can just let croagunk die to drifloon.

    So eventually, you should be able to get aron in on drifloon. While aron is 3hkoed by HP fire, drifloon will be forced to use acrobatics if it wants to out-speed aron at +2, which just makes aron have to get another automotize. At +4, aron will outspeed drifloon at +2 and then headsmash drifloon and/or superpower scraggy, both of which are OHKOes.

    So in short, worst case scenario if you don't play like a complete idiot, croa goes down and aron smashes scraggy and drifloon. This is the best I can do I'm afraid and Icba to change it again for a point. Done.
  20. Chieliee

    Chieliee

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    1,811

    yeah, that's right but wouldn't it be countering a core too if all 4 mons die? I mean, the core's dead, that's what it's about. But yeah i'll add it
  21. prem

    prem failed abortion
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator
    Moderator

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    [​IMG]
    Murkrow @ Choice Scarf
    Naive
    192 Atk / 88 SpA / 188 Spe
    -Brave Bird
    -Sucker Punch
    -Dark Pulse
    -Heat Wave

    murkrow obviously threatens both of these pokes with se STAB attacks. scarf is the better option to beat scraggy after it uses DD. it can only revenge scraggy but thats generally how most of its counteres work anyway (mienfoo sucks at countering scraggy lol). brave bird easily brings down scraggy, so with murkrow scraggy is a nonissue unless you somehow suck at let it get +2. for drifloon, you have two options in either dark pulse or sucker punch. dark pulse would probably be the better option most of the time if onyl because people woudl expect the sp and use destiny bond. even though murkrow dies from that he has effectively beat drifloon. murkrow cannot take a gem acrobat, but can possibly take one without the gem if you predict wrong. before it uses its gem murkrow obviously wins.

    ya its not very creative so i might make another post later on this.
  22. iss

    iss happily ever after
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

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    Scraggy's +0 Hi Jump Kick vs Murkrow: 109.09 - 127.27%

    It can't switch in, and so it doesn't fulfill the stated requirements for being a counter. Also iirc Brave Bird doesn't OHKO Drifloon.
  23. blarajan

    blarajan i was born under the same star as shakeitup
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Little Cup Co-Leader

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    This core simply cannot counter the one presented. As Chieliee stated that the first thing that is done when Scraggy is out is switch to Vullaby, that implies that Chieliee is ALWAYS predicting Scraggy to set up a Dragon Dance. Quite frankly, this is not always the case, as when Scraggy sees threats such as Vullaby or Murkrow or something in the team preview, it doesn't start setting up until it knows for sure what sets the problem Pokemon have and if it can beat it. Keeping that and the fact that this core has no Ghost-type Pokemon, if I was playing with Scraggy, I would just be spamming Hi Jump Kick before I know I can set up to win.

    236 Atk Scraggy Hi Jump Kick vs 0 HP/0 Def Vullaby: 69.57% - 91.3%
    2 hits to KO

    Possible HP Damage: 16, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 21

    Always OHKOes with Stealth Rock in play unless you roll min damage. So 15/16 of the time, Vullaby just DIES right here and right now, with no damage done to Scraggy or Drifloon. Chinchou is just Dragon Dance bait.

    Not a counter

    Iss said pretty much everything I was going to about this set, and fuck him for doing it first, I say!! The problem with Koffing acting as a counter for ANYTHING is the lack of reliability in its healing. If it switches in to a Flying Gem Acrobatics from Drifloon, it will then lose to the subsequent Acrobatics + Shadow Ball because it CAN'T use Recover or something to heal up. Yes Koffing is never 2HKOed by any of the moves here, and remove Scraggy's boosts, it loses to Drifloon, for the reasons Iss showed. When their HP gets around even (which it will due to Sludge Bomb and Will-o-Wisp on Drifloon), Koffing can't heal up, putting it in a position to get OHKOed by Scraggy.

    Not a counter

    What Iss said >.<. When Scraggy is in against Nosepass, and I see a Mankey in the team preview (which is always scarfed), I'm not going to try setting up anyways. I'll be spamming Drain Punch most likely since I can guarantee full health against Nosepass lol and because HJK won't OHKO it.

    236 Atk Scraggy Drain Punch vs 116 HP/0 Def Mankey: 68.18% - 81.82%

    Drain Punch easily 2HKOes Mankey. And when you switch in Mankey, I'm just going to switch in Drifloon! The coverage move to kill Drifloon will either be Assurance or Thunder Punch, which Scraggy can set up on. You'll either Close Combat, thus letting Drifloon come in for free, or killing it on the switch.

    1) If you Close Combat, I will probably just use Acrobatics here. When you switch in Nosepass, I just go back to Scraggy and do the same thing as before. Both Nosepass and Mankey end up dying.

    2) If you accurately predict the switch and use either Assurance or Thunder Punch, then Scraggy gets to set up to +2 before Mankey can come back in and threaten it, putting it in a position to easily sweep your team. This is actually the preferred situation.

    The only way this core has even the slightest bit of a chance is if it accurately double switches like 20 times, and that just isn't very likely.

    Not a counter

    The thing is, assuming Stealth Rock is automatically removed since you have a Spinner is iffy as you can guarantee them having a Ghost, due to Drifloon. And because your Drifloon relies on its Focus Sash, you HAVE to get Stealth Rock out before you can switch to it, 100% of the time, every time. So let's say there is Stealth Rock up at one point and you haven't been able to spin it right away. Scraggy comes in. +1 sweeps your core. Now let's say Stealth Rock is up, and you get Staryu in for free. On that, I can switch to Drifloon to block Rapid Spin rather reliably as you HAVE to get the spin off (and otherwise you're making predictions here which hurts the status of this core). Staryu will not always OHKO Drifloon with Thunderbolt (though it generally will), who can then Acrobatics and Destiny Bond Staryu. Rocks are still up. Or, I can switch to Scraggy predicting the Thunderbolt (not a hard prediction). Thunderbolt + Hydro Pump will never KO Scraggy. Now, you HAVE to use Rapid Spin. Scraggy can set up to +1 or use HJK to smash Staryu (not a KO but a 2HKO but w/e it's hard) on the free turn guaranteed by the necessary Rapid Spin. Now there is nothing forcing Scraggy to stay in...in fact, if Stealth Rock is up originally, you can somehow get Stealth Rock up again and repeat the same process!

    The necessity of keeping Stealth Rock off with this core makes it difficult for it to be seen as a counter, especially since there are many possibilities for things to go wrong (Staryu does not always OHKO Drifloon with Thunderbolt, Drifloon does not always OHKO Scraggy with a normal Acrobatics since it's Naive > Naughty, Hydro Pump can miss against Scraggy, etc). Since these possibilities add up, and since this core always gives a free turn to do a lot of damage to the Scraggy / Drifloon user when Stealth Rock is up (and this team will have to have Stealth Rock since Drifloon desperately needs it), I cannot consider this core a full counter.

    PS it gets smashed even more when Iss uses Kabuto like he originally wanted to ;)

    Not a counter

    Now it is currently impossible to do anything with this core as you haven't mentioned the EV spreads. The particular EV spreads are incredibly important in figuring out if something can counter, as those individual HP points are what we use particularly to see if the above core wins or loses. I do, however, think your core still loses. I will be basing this off the 31% you had stated, but I will give you a more exact approximation when you actually post an EV spread (still think it's a bit obnoxious that you don't have one but w/e just post it later).

    Now here's the thing. When I see shit like Croagunk on the opposing team, I'm not just setting up Scraggy when I get it in! Honestly, I'm not! I spam the most powerful move I have at the time in order to weaken the Pokemon that will probably switch into Scraggy. It's just those obvious things that people here are assuming don't happen.

    Scraggy is in, uses HJK as Croagunk switches in. Since I don't know how much HP you'll take from Stealth Rock since I don't know your EV spread, I'm going to keep this in terms of percentage, even though that is rather iffy. Takes 6.25% + 31% from HJK, or I'll just guess and say around 25% from a normal HJK? IDK NEED A SPREAD. so let's say Gunk takes the SR / HJK and now has 68.75% left. Now, when I handle Gunk with Scraggy, my main thing is NEVER LET IT DRAIN PUNCH EVER. So when you use Drain Punch, I'm switching to Drifloon here. But the thing is...Aron is a really really really obvious Drifloon check. As in, so obvious that I will...double switch to Scraggy 100% of the time I'm not even making predictions. And then we're back in the same situation. I'm going to HJK again, and you will switch in Gunk and take more Stealth Rock and then get HJK'd again. Notice how I AM NOT setting up. At this point, you're at like 37.5% left assuming that 25% was accurate. If I was doing more, I might KO you here, otherwise, I don't know. Well I'll switch back to Drifloon, and if you predict that, you might go for the Shadow Ball but that won't OHKO. With Drifloon, I'll use Acrobatics. You can either leave Gunk is predicting I switch back to Scraggy, or switch in Aron. DGAF, I'm sacking Drifloon here, do what you want. I then go to Scraggy (who is at full health), set up to +1, either sponge a Superpower, or watch you switch back to Gunk. If I sponge a Superpower, I'm going to use Drain Punch to get most of my HP back, so I can live a Vacuum Wave from Gunk after that. If you switched back to Gunk, I'll HJK there and KO and sweep your team with a full health Scraggy.

    While I only have to make a single simple obvious double switch to guarantee I come out on top, you need to make predictions throughout (Superpower the switch, predict if Drifloon is coming out or staying in, Shadow Ball or Drain Punch?) etc the entire time to have a shot, and you still don't always win.

    Not a counter

    Ps, logs on #littlecup to show you I'm better than Iss...

    Show Hide

    [15:01] <@blarajan> wait
    [15:01] <@blarajan> which is spud's core?
    [15:01] <@blarajan> which one is his?
    [15:01] <@iss> aron+gunk
    [15:01] <@blarajan> o
    [15:02] <@blarajan> i don't think his format should be allowed lol
    [15:02] <@blarajan> the EV spread is necessary in figuring out if it can be beaten or not
    [15:02] <@iss> yeah i agree
    [15:02] <@iss> but he has a week to put it in
    [15:02] <@iss> so lol
    [15:03] <@blarajan> i mean the main problem croagunk has in 15:03] <@blarajan> i mean the main problem croagunk has in countering scraggy is "what happens if i don't have the opportunity to get a drain punch in on a pokemon weak to fighting?"
    [15:03] <@blarajan> ie, i just spam hjk when i see croagunk
    [15:03] <@blarajan> and switch to fighting immunes
    [15:03] <@blarajan> weaken it
    [15:03] <@blarajan> etc
    [15:03] <@blarajan> so pretty obvious double switches beat that core
    [15:03] <@blarajan> but that's my reasonin so don't take it
    [15:03] <@blarajan> i'm making the post now
    [15:03] <@blarajan> reasoning*
    [15:04] <@iss> blarajan
    [15:04] <@iss> the thing is that superpower wrecks the shit out of scraggy
    [15:05] <@iss> check his calc though
    [15:05] <@iss> 85% seems like a lot
    [15:05] <@blarajan> the thing is i'm not trying to set up on aron
    [15:05] <@blarajan> i'm just spamming hjk the entire time until gunk dies
    [15:05] <@iss> superpower is gonna 2hko though
    [15:05] <@blarajan> but then aron dies
    [15:05] <@iss> so he can go like this
    [15:05] <@iss> switch gunk into hjk
    [15:05] <@iss> drifloon gets switched into gunk
    [15:05] <@iss> aron gets switched into drifloon
    [15:05] <@iss> aron superpowers scraggy on the switch
    [15:05] <@blarajan> nonono
    [15:05] <@iss> actually wait
    [15:06] <@blarajan> that's not what i meant stupid
    [15:06] <@iss> it needs prediction
    [15:06] <@blarajan> it goes
    [15:06] <@iss> yeah i think you're right
    [15:06] <@blarajan> that also wasn't the scenario i was outlining
    [15:06] <@blarajan> it was
    [15:06] <@iss> ok
    [15:06] <@blarajan> scraggy's in
    [15:06] <@blarajan> gunk switches in to scraggy, eats hjk
    [15:06] <@iss> yea
    [15:06] <@blarajan> scraggy switches out to drifloon, gunk uses drain punch
    [15:06] <@blarajan> drifloon predicts switch to aron and switches to scraggy, gunk switches to aron
    [15:06] <@iss> yep
    [15:06] <@blarajan> hjk again
    [15:06] <@blarajan> with rocks up two hjks will ko
    [15:06] <@iss> wait hjk 2hkoes?
    [15:06] <@blarajan> assuming rocks were up for the first one
    [15:07] <@blarajan> nah 3hkoes
    [15:07] <@blarajan> but it already took a hjk before
    [15:07] <@blarajan> remember?
    [15:07] <@blarajan> remember?
    [15:07] <@iss> yeah i think it's a bit of a shaky check
    [15:07] <@blarajan> yeah
    [15:07] <@blarajan> it only needs to make one really obvious prediction to win
    [15:07] <@blarajan> is the thing
    [15:07] <@blarajan> the scraggy / loon


    236 Atk Scraggy Hi Jump Kick vs 0 HP/0 Def Murkrow: 109.09% - 127.27%
    100% chance to OHKO

    Not a counter
  24. Danilo

    Danilo
    is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a World Cup of Pokemon defending champion

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    blarajan and iss killing yall.
    placeholder for pawniard and wynaut

    Wynaut (F) @ Colbur Berry
    Trait: Shadow Tag
    EVs: 80 HP / 216 Def / 148 SDef
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Encore
    - Mirror Coat
    - Counter
    - Safeguard

    Pawniard (F) @ Eviolite
    Trait: Defiant
    EVs: 76 HP / 160 Atk / 72 Def / 200 SDef
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Pursuit
    - Sucker Punch
    - Swords Dance
    - Brick Break

    Pawniard beats easily if it switches in on Acrobatics and can take it out with a Sucker Punch. If it switches in on Hidden Power Fighting Pawny still loves and demolishes with Sucker Punch. Pursuit is utilized if we switch in on Acrobatics, but it's a good way of trapping that Driftloon. Next we have Colbur Berry Wyanut which can switch in on any of Scraggy's Fighting-type moves, survive the next Dark-type move, then take it out with a Counter. :)
  25. blarajan

    blarajan i was born under the same star as shakeitup
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    Uhhhhhhhhh

    Scraggy is in against Pawniard, outspeeds. Brick Break never OHKOes Scraggy. Scraggy sets up to +1 while you switch to Wynaut. Now what do you do? Do you use Encore, predicting Scraggy to Drain Punch or Dragon Dance? Do you use Counter predicting Scraggy to Crunch?

    After Stealth Rock, Wynaut is at 24 HP.

    236 +1 Atk Scraggy Drain Punch vs 80 HP/216 Def Wynaut: 25.93% - 33.33%
    3-4 hits to KO

    Possible HP Damage: 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 9

    36 +1 Atk Scraggy Crunch vs 80 HP/216 Def Colbur Berry Wynaut: 55.56% - 66.67%
    2 hits to KO

    Possible HP Damage: 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18

    3 + 8 + 16 = 27, KOing Wynaut.

    With this, you HAVE to predict correctly against Scraggy. As in, the first Counter / Encore. And if you predict incorrectly here, then you can very easily lose, 100% of the time if you switch into Stealth Rock twice. Now let's say you use Counter against a Dragon Dance. Now you have to predict right AGAIN.

    Wynaut is forced to make a ton of predictions to have a chance of winning.

    Not a counter

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