Duo Destruction - Awards!

Those aren't max damage rolls (which are 12). They are average damage rolls (which are 10). All Staryu needs is one max roll to be guaranteed to 2HKO (keep in mind hail), but 10 is the average and still wins half of the time right off the bat; as in if Shed Skin doesn't activate in those 2 chances. If you get an activation every 2 turns, you just keep Resting.

You don't get an opportunity to Drain Punch unless you Shed Skin right after you use Rest (30% of the time) but Staryu can just Recover the damage off during another Rest.
 
Reserving surskit for what it's worth :P

Ok, make way for the possesor of the coolest typing in pokemon history:


Surskit @eviolite
EVs: 116 HP, 196 SpA, 180 SpD
Modest, Swift Swim
-Signal Beam
-Rest
-Sleep talk
-Agility

So pretty much, this awesome pond skater can switch in on either of the two. If you switch in one snover's giga drain, you have only a 6.25% chance of being 2hkoed with SR and hail. Then you immediately rest. Then you obviously sleep talk. Snover has a 62.5% chance of 3hkoing you with giga drain and you have 1/9 chance of getting rest twice so surskit has a 6.94% chance of losing to snover if you switch in on giga drain (not accounting random crap like infinite blizzard freezes and crits, snover only has 3 turns to get a crit anyway). So you will almost definetely either get agility or signal beam one of the two rest turns. If it's agility, just rest again and keep talking till you get signal beam, if it's signal beam, you will OHKO. If, for example you get rest first turn and signal beam the next, and staryu switches in, you will still only lose if snover rolls max on one of the giga drains (6% chance). So with snover dead, you can pretty safely nab an agility and spam signal beam until you get the 10% chance for a 2hko, or you get confusion hax, or staryu runs out of recover PP.

If against staryu, it's pretty much same deal, psychic has a 3% chance to 3hko you with weather and no chance to 2hko you unless it gets a defense drop with SR. Agili up, and spam signal beam (it has 50% more PP than recover so the star can't PP stall you) and snover just sits there and dies to a signal beam if it switches in.

Edit: I find it's funny how all the good checks are snapped up within 24 hours of ray jay's post. Kudos to reviving LC activity Ray!
 

Ray Jay

"Jump first, ask questions later, oui oui!"
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A few quick notes:

@ prem: Reread Heysup's post. You don't just lose to a max damage roll; you only WIN if you get a min damage roll and a first turn Shed Skin. Even if Hydro Pump does only 10 damage (12 is max), you still are forced to try and stall it out, obviously baiting a crit. Of course, Hpump's accuracy is pretty awful, so I'm sure if you post some more calcs along with the chance of each damage point (9, 10, 11, and 12) occurring, you will be able to argue your way out of this.

@ Nanoswine: have you taken into account hail? I think we need calcs of Hydro Pump at +0 and +1 spdef from Bronzor to demonstrate this set's effectiveness. Obviously if you can get Rest and a Calm Mind though it looks good.
 
Hydro Pump does an average of 9 damage without a Calm Mind boost, 6 with. (Max values are 10 and 7 respectively, but there is only a 6% chance that either will occur)

Switch in on Hydro Pump out of hail (if Snover ever comes in before Staryu, Bronzor wins, see below), rest next turn, start sleep talking. For Staryu to win, it has to hit 5 Hydro Pumps in a row, and Bronzor can't get a single Calm Mind from Sleep Talk. The chance that will occur is ~11%, so if you consider Mienfoo with HJK a good counter for Scraggy, Bronzor is a counter to the core.

That is only the worst case scenario though; if Snover comes in to start up Hail then Bronzor gets a free switchin. If the opponent stays in, free Calm Mind and gg. If they switch, free Calm Mind and gg. If they double switch to Staryu when Bronzor comes in, here's what happens (assuming SR and max damage rolls):

Turn 1
Bronzor switches in.
Stealth rock damage.
Staryu switches in.
Hail damage.
Bronzor: 19 HP

Turn 2
Staryu Hydro Pump (10 HP)
Bronzor Calm Mind
Bronzor: 8 HP

Turn 3
Staryu Hydro Pump (7 HP)
Bronzor Rest
gg
 
Yeah, Nano's bronzor works, though it has about 6% chance to lose if there is 1 layer of spikes up which soars up to 93% chance with two layers of spikes and no SR. One crit (and staryu has plenty of time to fish for one) will beat bronzor, so maybe keep that in mind too (this is also not accounting hail).
 
Just clarifying what Ray Jay was getting at for you Nanoswine. In the same way Stealth Rock could be up, it's a little absurd to assume that there won't be a situation where Staryu will be in with hail also up. For example, you need to be able to work yourself out of this situation: switching into Staryu + hail.

Turn 1
Bronzor switches in.
Stealth rock damage (1?)
Staryu Hydro Pump (9)
Hail damage (1)
Staryu @ w/e
Bronzor @ 14

If you don't rest, you lose right here.

Turn 2
Staryu uses Hydro Pump
Bronzor Rests
Hail damage
Staryu @ w/e
Bronzor @ 24 HP

You need to Sleep Talk Calm Mind here or you lose right away. You have 67% chance to lose right here, and I don't think a 33% to counter is really an effective counter.

It's also worth noting that Hail actually hasn't made a difference until now since you still can't Calm Mind instead of Rest first turn since 9 (vs +0) + 6 (vs +1) still do 15 damage you would die. And without Hail, Hydro Pump still has a 96% chance to 3HKO (3x9=27 which is >25, Bronzor's HP) as long as you don't Sleep Talk Calm Mind (which only has 33% chance of happening).

If you do get it the +1:

Turn 3
Hydro Pump + Hail (10avg)
Sleep Talks....+1
Bronzor @ 14

From here you can still lose (if you don't get another +1 next turn) due to any max damage rolls in the next two turns (you only need one to lose).
 
I think Nano is working on the presumption that bronzor will switch in on first opportunity in the game on either staryu or snover, so I think that's still a fair enough tactic. P.S, surskit's up and ready to be attacked (if you can ;) )
 
I'm sure that argument can be made (I don't really want to argue about that even though I definitely disagree with it; it's kind of pointless), however; I don't think Ray Jay wouldn't have pointed it out if he thought that just switching into Snover was good enough.

Also keep in mind that Bronzor has over 67% chance to lose right off the bat even without hail.

(I think Spoink worked better?)

Ray Jay has offered to pay me a pretty penny but I nobly declined.

spuds4ever said:

Surskit @eviolite
EVs: 116 HP, 196 SpA, 180 SpD
Modest, Swift Swim
-Signal Beam
-Rest
-Sleep talk
-Agility
The first issue I have is that it's too cute.

I'm not going to argue that you can't get the Rest off, because you can almost all of the time.

The first weakness here is the iffyness of Restalk and not getting Agility (Signal Beam KOes Snover then Staryu coming in without you having an Agility which means it's still faster). If you Sleep Talk Signal Beam right away, you kill Snover after it hits you with a Giga Drain (-1 Hail from turn of Rest, -6 from Giga Drain, -1 from hail again) you are sitting at 14 HP. Then Staryu comes in and does 6 (average) + hail + another 6 (average) before you can Rest again, possibly 2HKOing your 14 HP with one max damage roll.

This of course raises the issue that you can get 3HKOed including Hail from both Psychic and Giga Drain (they both do 6 average) after Resting with an Agility and then revenged by Snover. You always lose if Snover is still alive because you can't kill both Staryu AND Snove. If Snover is dead:

Turn 1.
Surskit uses Rest.
Psychic (6) damage
Hail (1) Damage
Surskit @ 15

Turn 2.
Surskit uses Sleep Talk
Psychic + Hail (7)
Surskit @ 8 HP

Turn 3:
Surskit uses Sleep Talk
Psychic + Hail (7)
Surskit @ 1 HP.

Psychic: 5, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 7
Giga Drain: 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 8
Signal Beam vs Staryu: Guaranteed 2HKO

So you CAN win here because you survive with 1 HP. But if you KO Staryu you lose to Snover (if Snover is still alive) because of priority.

In short (ie if you don't want to read the proof above):

- You lose without the correct timing / good Sleep Talks
- You lose if Staryu goes down in your last Sleep Talk with Snover still alive.
- You lose if they get a single max damage roll.

Maybe try playing with the EVs or moves a bit, I think there actually is a set that would almost all of the time.
 
That's true. Idk, looks like you might have to fish something else out of the bucket Nano.

So currently, counters are heysup's munchie *cough*cough*my set*cough*, Chielee's Lickitung (I guess his surskit reservation which I missed is cancelled seeing as lickitung works), Blarajan's Mantyke (psychic spamming staryu for the defense drop could be problomatic...) and my surskit until disproved edit: and spoink :)

Edit: @chieliee, lickitung is better than my surskit so if you don't want it I'll take it :P
 
That's true. Idk, looks like you might have to fish something else out of the bucket Nano.

So currently, counters are heysup's munchie *cough*cough*my set*cough*, Chielee's Lickitung (I guess his surskit reservation which I missed is cancelled seeing as lickitung works), Blarajan's Mantyke (psychic spamming staryu for the defense drop could be problomatic...) and my surskit until disproved

Edit: @chieliee, lickitung is better than my surskit so if you don't want it I'll take it :P

Don't forget Spoink :) Also wow there are lots of cute Pokemon that counter this core :)
 

Brambane

protect the wetlands
is a Contributor Alumnus
I'm not going to defend my post because I want points (the Duskull + Cranidos thing isn't meant to be take super seriously), but what is annoying me is how much emphasis is being placed on hazards as a reason to declare "not a counter".

First off, why is everyone using Stealth Rock as an argument. Is it safe the assume Stealth Rock is up? What about Spikes? Toxic Spikes? Why limit our arguments to simply one entry hazard? Is it because it only takes one turn to set up Stealth Rock? It also takes only one turn to set up Light Screen, Trick Room, Tailwind, etc. It's no more difficult to set up screens than it is Stealth Rock. Should we say that "your core fails because if the opponent has Reflect up it isn't 2HKOed by *physical move* anymore"?

The rules say relying on hazards will affect our score in unless we ourselves have a Pokemon that can set up hazards in our core. However, our opponents seem to have free reign when it comes to Stealth Rock even when we don't have any discernible proof that they are even running a Pokemon with Stealth Rock, or if they even got the opportunity to set up hazards if they do have them! I can understand why viability of a core would be diminished by relying on lower accuracy moves. If you need to rely on Hypnosis to successfully counter a core or two hits from Focus Blast, I can see it being called into question. But something like field conditions, where we have absolutely no knowledge of what our opponents are potentially running?

This argument can actually be applied to the whole contest itself, because people (usually) have four other Pokemon on their teams. Is a good player really going to say "well, I have Larvesta and Chinchou on a team, I guess they need absolutely zero support from their teammates"? Of course not. They are going to add Pokemon that are either complemented by the core or fortify the core itself. With that being said, creating a thread entitled "Counter This Team!" wouldn't likely garner much interest.

I do rather like this contest, but there is currently just too much gray to properly determine a counter. How do we determine what is safe to assume and what is not? The simple solution is present a situation where you wouldn't have a need to make assumptions. Because of this, I reiterate that it should be included which field conditions, including Stealth Rock, on both sides of the field are present. This additionally adds a more strategic element to the process. If the opponent has Toxic Spikes up, how do we deal with that in addition to the counter? What if they have a Tailwind boost? It provides additional variability and can allow us to revisit old cores under new conditions.

tl;dr - I feel there is too much gray area in the process and that we should be made aware of what hazards, etc are present when a new round is started.
 
I think SR is presumed as it's by far the most common field effect in LC and unquestionably the easiest to set up. Spikes users aren't that common and dual screens are even less so. Dual screens and tailwind are also temporary so it's generally not too hard to deal with just by stalling out the turns using the rest of the team. Field effects could work, but I think this would create even more ridiculously over-specialized counters to the contest.
 
While I agree with you Draco that it should be specified, I don't agree with your reasoning at all. My reasoning for specifying Stealth Rock is simply because there's no reason not to specify it. One's counters are utterly useless if they don't work when Stealth Rock is up (if you don't have an easy way of spinning) because of how common it is.

Ray Jay's reasoning for not specifying it is kind of lackluster as well in my opinion if you take it literally. However, the way I take his post is "just assume Stealth Rock is always up with every core" which is basically the same thing as specifying every time. He subtly hints that your counters are not really good counters if they don't work under common battle conditions.

If you really want to bring up the less common hazards (Spikes, Toxic Spikes), then all the counterargument needs to be is to emphasize the fact that they are, in fact, the less common hazards. Stealth Rock is used on basically every standard team. Spikes and Toxic Spikes are not even close to that combined. You can even just check out the usage stats to see how common Stealth Rock set up Pokemon are compared to the others.

In short, a counter is generally defined as something that can (consistently) switch in and immediately threaten a Pokemon/Core in common battle conditions. Stealth Rock has to be included in common battle conditions. Stealth Rock should still be specified with every core that it would generally apply to (basically all cores, but I'm sure there are exceptions (like things where the only feasible Stealth Rock option is in the core itself)). Just assume Stealth Rock is up unless there is a very convincing argument to be made otherwise (and for these last cores, there isn't one).
 

Brambane

protect the wetlands
is a Contributor Alumnus
In short, a counter is generally defined as something that can (consistently) switch in and immediately threaten a Pokemon/Core in common battle conditions. Stealth Rock has to be included in common battle conditions. Stealth Rock should still be specified with every core that it would generally apply to (basically all cores, but I'm sure there are exceptions (like things where the only feasible Stealth Rock option is in the core itself)). Just assume Stealth Rock is up unless there is a very convincing argument to be made otherwise (and for these last cores, there isn't one).
I can just as easily assume Stealth Rock isn't up. While I don't doubt that probably 80+% of teams run a Pokemon with Stealth Rock, it's not always a situation where Stealth Rock is present on the field. The best way I can put it is that the opponent simply didn't gain the opportunity to set up Stealth Rock yet. While setting up Stealth Rock turn one is great, its not always the case.

Regarding other hazards, they are less used, but I don't believe that they should be ignored because of that. I wouldn't ignore Drifloon or Shellder when building a team because they are less used than Misdreavus and Clamperl. They are still threatening in their own right and, as such, should be taken into account. I am also confused with what to define as a common battle condition. With both Ferroseed and Dwebble in the top twenty LC mons as of May, is Spikes now a common battle condition? Hippopotas is number 8, so is sandstorm common? (which obviously doesn't apply when countering Snover, but may apply in future rounds)

I'm not trying to downplay Stealth Rock and overplay other conditions; I simply want more clarity in the process. If we continue as we are, I feel we need to define determine what exactly are common battle conditions in Little Cup and what are not.
 
Bronzor will never switch in on Staryu while hail is up because Snover has to come in to set it up. If Snover switches in at all, Bronzor gets a free CM and wins, which I explained in my other post.

For Bronzor to lose against Staryu, it has to be hit with Hydro Pump 5 times. If it gets Calm Mind while Sleep Talking, it wins. The chance that Staryu will hit 5 times and Bronzor doesn't get a Calm Mind is .11

If you don't take an 89% success rate as a counter, then that's too bad! Most people use Mienfoo to take on Scraggy, although if it carries ZHB or if Mienfoo misses with HJK then Scraggy wins. If we limit ourselves to counters that will win even if the opposing core crits every turn, hits with every attack, freezes with every Blizzard, has perfect predicion, and you also have to take damage from SR, Spikes, and TSpikes, then there would be only one counter each round, if any at all! I agree that in the future, field conditions should be presented with the core, because there is far too much grey area as is.

Also, Spoink does not fare better than Bronzor at all. Bronzor has the same HP, but packs more and better resistances and defenses than Spoink. Spoink takes an average of 10, max 12 damage from Hydro Pump, while Bronzor only takes 9 on average, max 10. If you want to use SR as an argument, Bronzor takes less damage from it than Spoink as well.
 

Ray Jay

"Jump first, ask questions later, oui oui!"
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
This argument can actually be applied to the whole contest itself, because people (usually) have four other Pokemon on their teams. Is a good player really going to say "well, I have Larvesta and Chinchou on a team, I guess they need absolutely zero support from their teammates"? Of course not. They are going to add Pokemon that are either complemented by the core or fortify the core itself. With that being said, creating a thread entitled "Counter This Team!" wouldn't likely garner much interest.

I do rather like this contest, but there is currently just too much gray to properly determine a counter. How do we determine what is safe to assume and what is not? The simple solution is present a situation where you wouldn't have a need to make assumptions. Because of this, I reiterate that it should be included which field conditions, including Stealth Rock, on both sides of the field are present. This additionally adds a more strategic element to the process. If the opponent has Toxic Spikes up, how do we deal with that in addition to the counter? What if they have a Tailwind boost? It provides additional variability and can allow us to revisit old cores under new conditions.

tl;dr - I feel there is too much gray area in the process and that we should be made aware of what hazards, etc are present when a new round is started.
I'm going to try my best to sound like I'm not repeating everyone else and actually making sense, let me know how I'm doing.

Stealth Rock is assumed not because of how easy it is to set up, but how common it is. Looking at the usage stats, we have 4 (almost 5) pokemon that consistently run Stealth Rock in their movesets at over 10% usage. Stealth Rock is more common than dual screens, Tailwind, and, notably, Spikes. For this reason, it is wise to assume Stealth Rock in your calculations. The participants right now are correct in saying "you don't counter the core" because you can't switch into Stealth Rock multiple times. Does that mean Pokemon such as Larvesta can never be considered? Certainly not! You are more than welcome to provide a spinner in your core. However, merely assuming a spinner will not get you points.

With that being said, you bring up good points that I took into heavy consideration before making this thread. While the certain cores proposed in this thread are very common, they always have completely different team support. The cores, however, are seen from team to team, and it is sometimes advantageous to find other good cores that you can easily fit on a team that single handedly cancel the first core out while gaining you some notable advantages. That's the point of this thread; of course team support and hazards support and field conditions will sway any battle, we just want to find what beats a core under the most common field conditions (which, like it or not, is Stealth Rock and many times residual weather).

That being said, I will leave little to no gray area in the future. From now on, the initial post with the core will include what entry hazards are already up on their side. Still, never assume you have put up entry hazards unless you have a Pokemon in your core that can do so.

Finally, I want to stress one last thing. You should always be trying to prove the worst case scenario in which your core still wins. In other words, you shouldn't HAVE to assume Stealth Rock is up on the opponent's side in order to win. Hopefully, you're also able to show us how your core can still win, even with a crit from them here and there or other items of hax. Doing so greatly helps your argument.

I hope this post has made sense, continue to propose ideas and hopefully we can make the process even smoother in the future.
 
I can just as easily assume Stealth Rock isn't up. While I don't doubt that probably 80+% of teams run a Pokemon with Stealth Rock, it's not always a situation where Stealth Rock is present on the field. The best way I can put it is that the opponent simply didn't gain the opportunity to set up Stealth Rock yet. While setting up Stealth Rock turn one is great, its not always the case.
This makes no sense to me. The assumption that Stealth Rock is up comes from two facts:

1) Stealth Rock is a common battle condition, it's up in more games than it isn't.
2) Due to the above fact, you have to consider it in your worst case counter scenario.

You can't just as easily assume something that does not have any facts backing it up. It's just an "equally possible" situation, but that doesn't mean it's equally common or equally weighted as a scenario in which you need to counter something.

@ Ray Jay: Thanks for clarifying everything :)

Dracoyoshi8 said:
Regarding other hazards, they are less used, but I don't believe that they should be ignored because of that. I wouldn't ignore Drifloon or Shellder when building a team because they are less used than Misdreavus and Clamperl. They are still threatening in their own right and, as such, should be taken into account. I am also confused with what to define as a common battle condition. With both Ferroseed and Dwebble in the top twenty LC mons as of May, is Spikes now a common battle condition? Hippopotas is number 8, so is sandstorm common? (which obviously doesn't apply when countering Snover, but may apply in future rounds)

I'm not trying to downplay Stealth Rock and overplay other conditions; I simply want more clarity in the process. If we continue as we are, I feel we need to define what exactly are common battle conditions in Little Cup and what are not.
Not as common as Stealth Rock. They aren't in more battles than they aren't in. I don't want to repeat myself in the same post, so I'll just leave it at that. I'm sure you completely understand how Stealth Rock is something that you need to consider all of the time when Spikes aren't.

Common battle conditions don't need to be defined by us, they are defined by being common battle conditions. What we need defined is "the exact battle conditions in which we are countering the core in question".

So yea, I do agree we need more clarity, and Ray Jay's post confirmed that we are getting it.

Bronzor will never switch in on Staryu while hail is up because Snover has to come in to set it up. If Snover switches in at all, Bronzor gets a free CM and wins, which I explained in my other post.

For Bronzor to lose against Staryu, it has to be hit with Hydro Pump 5 times. If it gets Calm Mind while Sleep Talking, it wins. The chance that Staryu will hit 5 times and Bronzor doesn't get a Calm Mind is .11
Both of those statements are not true.

Firstly, you need to be able to counter both Pokemon in order to counter the core. You can only counter it switch into Snover. There is a very obvious situation in which Snover is not in and Staryu is when hail is up. Snover is usually just lead with and switched out right away to start up hail. You currently only counter 50% of the core, which according to Ray Jay's previous posts, does not cut it.

Second, Hydro Pump doesn't actually need to hit the second time or 5th time in order to win because you're going to be using Rest anyway. If you want to get even more technical, Staryu could easily take either of those turns to do something else like Rapid Spin or Recover or even try to use Psychic for the SpD drop - it doesn't matter. The only thing that needs to hit is the first Hydro Pump, then at SOME point (obviously within the next 7 Hydro Pumps due to PP limitations) 3 in a row need to land. The chance of that happening in one try is over 50% and you have two tries to do it before running out of Hydro Pumps. Way more likely than unlikely.

Then you can multiply that chance by the 67% it has to not use Calm Mind and the ADDITIONAL chances to automatically win via any max damage roll from any of the 7 remaining Hydro Pumps (which is just under 40% to happen in one of the 7 attacks....if my math is right). There's also just under 40% chance to crit in those attacks too. I would only seriously consider those last two %'s if you include the chance of missing because it seriously diminishes the relevance of a miss possibility.

The chances for Bronzor to lose including misses are 67% x 50% which is 33.5%. Plus the % to roll max damage, plus the % to crit. Either way, Bronzor is not a reliable counter. Something like 85% or ideally over 90% to succeed is different then not even comfortably sitting at a ~65% success rate not including max damage rolls and crit chances.

Ray Jay summed it up perfectly here:

Finally, I want to stress one last thing. You should always be trying to prove the worst case scenario in which your core still wins. In other words, you shouldn't HAVE to assume Stealth Rock is up on the opponent's side in order to win. Hopefully, you're also able to show us how your core can still win, even with a crit from them here and there or other items of hax. Doing so greatly helps your argument.
This isn't even involving hax, but simply a worst-case (but still very likely) scenario.

I think in order to get points, you're going to need to find something else. I'm sure you can, there are many unused counters still.
 

Brambane

protect the wetlands
is a Contributor Alumnus
Cool, thanks RayJay.

As a side note, does anyone else find it amusing that all of the good counters this round are using RestTalk? My guess is because Staryu and Snover can fire off such high power moves, you need some form a recovery, thus RestTalk. It's fun the find patterns in the counters.
 
I think it's mostly because they fail to 3HKO a lot of Pokemon so Restalk allows those Pokemon to set up and beat both Pokemon with ease.
 
I'm lazy so I'm just going to post something easy and take my 1 point.


Misdreavus (M) @ Choice Scarf Trait: Levitate
EVs: 196 HP / 76 SAtk / 236 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Memento



Pawniard (M) @ Eviolite Trait: Inner Focus
EVs: 156 HP / 236 Atk / 116 SDef
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Substitute
- Sucker Punch
- Iron Head

Switch in Misdreavus, outspeed and Memento. Bring in Pawniard, get to +2. OHKO both with Sucker Punch.

252 +2 Atk Pawniard (+Atk) Sucker Punch vs 36 HP/0 Def Snover: 130.43% - 156.52%

252 +2 Atk Pawniard (+Atk) Sucker Punch vs 36 HP/0 Def Eviolite Staryu: 90% - 110%
Possible HP Damage: 18, 18, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 22

Staryu will probably have taken an HP from Hail damage, so that's almost always a KO.

200 -2 SpAtk Staryu Hydro Pump vs 156 HP/116 SpDef Eviolite Pawniard: 30.43% - 39.13%

184 -2 SpAtk Snover Hidden Power Fire vs 156 HP/116 SpDef Eviolite Pawniard: 26.09% - 34.78%

I couldn't figure out how to fix Mantyke and couldn't make Tentacool work either. Fuck Hail damage messing everything up by 1 HP. Thus I chose something easy that just works every time lol.

edit: I realized prem and changed it.
 
Moment of inspiration :D


Houndour (F) @ Eviolite
Trait: Early Bird
EVs: 76 HP / 196 Atk / 84 Def / 116 SAtk / 36 SDef
Quiet Nature (+SAtk, -Spd)
- Dark Pulse
- Flamethrower
- Sucker Punch
- Pursuit

Oddish (F) @ Eviolite
Trait: Chlorophyll
EVs: 76 HP / 156 SAtk / 236 SDef / 40 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Giga Drain
- Stun Spore
- Sludge Bomb
- Sleep Powder

Ok. Oddish is a boss and houndour is too.

Anyways onto the stuff about how the beats the core yada yada.

If staryu is in.

Oddish goes in, sludge bomb the incoming snover or giga drain that staryu, your choice. stun sporing is also a safe option as you can KO snover after its paralysed or KO staryu after its paralysed, or sleep powder works. Giga drain and sludge bomb OHKO respectively.

Houndour goes in, doesn't give a crap about what snover does, since SR is common and it seems we are aloud to assume it you can pursuit since snover looses 5 HP from SR upon coming in, 13 minimum from pursuit as it switches and another 5 when it switches back in. Thats 23 for anyone stuck in first grade, dead snover, houndour dies to staryu and staryu dies to oddish bar a crit. If we cant assume SR then dark pulse the obvious staryu, it cant survive a 2HKO and cant recover stall so it will attack, sucker punch and it dies, or just dark pulse if it recovers. Neither of the two can switch into houndour basically but it cant quite switch into staryu.

Houndours SR weakness doesn't really matter as it walls what its gonna switch into and doesn't need to switch out. Oddish also OHKOs booth in the core with the appropriate move(or cripples them).

They would need to predict perfectly around sucker punch or get a crit on oddish to win with SR not on the field, if its on the field they die. They just die as houndour pursuits snover and oddish kills staryu.

I'm probably gonna get shot down but whatever.

P.s Oddish is cuter than spoink and stuff, plus, houndour is a puppy so it auto wins cuz its cute liek dat.
 
I'm lazy so I'm just going to post something easy and take my 1 point.
Well, 0 points due to ray jay's all or nothing doo.

@Heysup:

Yeah, I can't really squeeze anything more out of the surskit set. SpD is on highest even number and SpA is as high as possible otherwise it can't 2hko staryu and the rest is dumped into HP. I was, however, considering giga drain on the set. Wouldn't need all the offensive investment as it could take down staryu in two hits, but I'd be even more reliant on getting the right move in sleep talk.
 

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