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Duosion (Re-Opened) [QC: 1/3]

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by unfixable, Oct 1, 2013.

  1. unfixable

    unfixable we are the poisoned youth
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    [​IMG]Blob of goop
    (QC: 1/3)
    [From: tennisace ]
    (GP: 0/2)
    [From: ]

    [Overview]​
    • Amazing ability in Magic Guard, allowing it to take no residual damage whatsoever, preventing it from taking any damage from Toxic-Stall and not being worn down by hazards, as Musharna is.
    • Good Trick Room setter.
    • Has decent bulk with investment and Eviolite.
    • Many other Psychic-Types in the tier and somewhat struggles to leave a mark.
    • Musharna does the same thing but with better bulk.
    • Horrible HP and is outspeed by almost everything in the tier when not under Trick Room.
    • Barren movepool.
    [SET]
    name: Calm Mind
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Psychic
    move 3: Signal Beam / Thunder
    move 4: Recover
    item: Eviolite
    ability: Magic Guard
    nature: Bold
    evs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA


    [SET COMMENTS]
    • Great late game sweeper and a great weapon against stall
    • Boosts its already outstanding Special Attack to even further levels
    • Psychic/Bug get really good coverage together, hitting most of the tier for Super Effective or neutral damage.
    • Signal Beam nails the Psychic and Dark-types that resist Psychic.
    • Recover and Magic Guard help set it apart from Musharna, as Recover outclasses Moonlight, which is useless under Rain and has less PP. Magic Guard, prevents eing Toxic Stalled to death and not be worn down by hazards, as Musharna is.
    • Thunder nails Mandibuzz hard, which is a great feat, and also allows you to hurt Skuntank for more than Signal Beam.

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    • EV's Provided allow it to be as bulky as possible on it's Defense.
    • Good partners include strong fighting and bug-types to kill off the Pursuit and sucker punch users that really hurt Duosion, some examples could be Sawk or Scolipede.
    • Forming a Fighting-Dark-Psychic core will create a very strong core.
    • Gurdurr makes a very powerful core in conjunction with this set, being able to handle the dark-types and bug-types, Throh too can perform the similarly, but not quite as well.
    • Hidden Power Ground is an option, but everything gets hit just as well by Psychic/Bug, however there are some exceptions, such as Bastiodon who will no longer wall Duosion if it chooses to run Hidden Power Ground or simply choose just to Roar it away, it also hits Skuntank hard.
    • Psyshock is usable to make sort of a mixed attacker, but after enough boosts Psychic will plow down Special walls or be forced to switch at walls it simply cannot beat like Bastiodion.

    [SET]
    name: Offensive Trick Room
    move 1: Trick Room
    move 2: Psychic
    move 3: Signal Beam
    move 4: Hidden Power Ground / Recover
    item: Eviolite
    ability: Magic Guard
    nature: Quiet
    evs: evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
    ivs: 3 Speed
    [SET COMMENTS]
    • Serves as a better standalone Trick Room sweeper.
    • Trick Room lets it bypass it's horrible speed and become one of the fastest Pokemon in the tier.
    • Its good bulk and Special Attack can let it set up and sweep.
    • Psychic is Duosion's most powerful STAB attack and hits very hard.
    • 3 Speed IV's allow it to be as slow as possible while retaining a 70 BP Hidden Power.
    • Signal Beam is mandatory to really pack a punch on Dark-Types.
    • Recover can replace Hidden Power Ground for increased longevity, but then it cannot hit Skunktank.

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • EV Spread provides as much bulk as possible, while also giving Duosion as much power as can be.
    • Good partners include slow pokemon such as Golurk, Guts Ursaring, and Marowak, who are can make use of the few turns they get with Trick Room up, but most of the time it is too risky and won't end up achieving what you wish for it to. Gurdurr is an exception to this as it benefits from trick room, and has the ability to pick off the dark types that are troublesome to duosion.
    • Eviolite is the preferred item to add much needed bulk.
    • Life Orb is a viable option as it provides some extra power, but the loss in bulk is very noticeable.
    252+ SpA Duosion Hidden Power Ground vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Skuntank: 244-288 (70.11 - 82.75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. Duosion however gets 2HKO'd by Sucker Punch and will move after it gets hit because of Sucker Punches priority. Make sure some prior damage has been done to Skuntank before you attempt to sweep.
    • Trick Room has a -6 Priority, so be sure it can survive a hit from whatever it is trying to set it up on.
    [Other Options]
    • It can use defensive Trick Room set to make a dedicated to a full Trick Room team, but usually Trick Room teams are not very effective.
    • A Trick+Orb set looks good on paper, but it really doesn't work as effectively as it sounds, as Duosion loses a significant amount of bulk from not having it's Eviolite.
    • Energy Ball and Hidden Power Fighting could all be used as coverage moves but they don't hit anything significantly for better coverage than Bug/Psychic combo.
    • Magic Coat could be useful to reflect hazards or status, but no one is really that stupid to use a status on Duosion and Duosion has much better things to do in it's time on the battlefield.
    • Acid Armor, which can make it very bulky on the Physical side, but it really is gimmicky at best
    • It gets Dual Screens, but Gardevoir is usually better at setting these up due to its higher speed.
    • Thunder Wave can cripple some things to help some of the other pokemon on your team, but Trick Room cripples fast pokemon just as much.
    • Regenerator could be used, but is inferior to Magic Guard in just about every way.
    [Checks and Counters]
    • The #1 counter to Duosion is Mandibuzz, who can Taunt, Whirlwind, and wear down Duosion with Foul Play, all the meanwhile taking nothing at all from Duosion's attacks.
    • In similar vane as Mandibuzz, Skuntank can also Taunt Duosion and threaten it with it's STABs, but it is 2HKO'd by Hidden Power Ground, so it is considered a check at best. Scraggy also takes nothing from any of Duosion's attacks, and can boost alongside it.
    • Scolipede can easily destroy it with STAB Megahorn, in a similar boat, Pinsir can gain a free Moxie boost by knocking out Duosion easily with X-Scissor.
    • Powerful Sucker Punches from the likes of Shiftry and Cacturne are also the death of Duosion.
    • Liepard shuts down all of Duosion's sets through Encore mainly, while also having Taunt and Dark STABs to pick off Duosion, however it does take a lot from Signal Beam.
    • Bastiodon deserves a mention because it can Roar away Duosion while taking nothing at all from even boosted attacks.
    • Knock Off is problematic, as it removes Duosion's Eviolite and bulk.
    • Bugs and ghost-types such as Haunter, Golurk, and Missy all have trouble switching into Duosion, but most of them can proceed to knock out Duosion.
    • Special walls such as Audino, Lickilicky, and Probopass all take nothing from any of Duosions attacks, while Audino and Lickilicky can recover their health and even stall out Duosion and attacking with their moves also.
    • Generally offensive teams give it trouble as they don't allow it to set up.
    • Trick also renders Duosion as it steals away Duosion's precious Eviolite.
    • Taunt also prevents it from setting up, rendering it useless.
    • It should be noted that Steel-Types completely wall it if it is lacking the correct hidden power.
    • Physical Samurott is very threatening and can easily defeat Duosion with Megahorn.
    • U-Turn weakness, along with a Pursuit weakness, is also very troublesome.
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2013
  2. Dat Blast

    Dat Blast DOES THIS LOOK LIKE THE FACE OF MERCY TO YOU!?!?
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    [Overview]
    • I'd rather you cut out the first point. There are tons of great late-game sweepers and there's no real use pointing it out. Duosion's not even the "best" late-game sweeper out there anyway with it getting so much competition.
    • Expand more on Duosion's role as a stallbreaker. Talk about how Magic Guard makes it unable to be stalled out by Toxic or worn down by hazards like Musharna is. You need to give a bigger mention to Magic Guard in general, since it's like the one thing Duosion has over other Psychics (that and Recover).
    [SET COMMENTS] (CM)
    • You mention how CM boosts Duosion SpA twice. Remove the second mention.
    • Talk about how Recover and Magic Guard set it apart from Musharna. Recover is better than Mushy's Moonlight since it has more PP and isn't neutered by rain, and Magic Guard is Magic Guard.
    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • Remove Shadow Ball. Misdreavus is hit hard enough by Psychic. Keep HP Ground though, but remove the part where it hits Probopass since you set up all day against it (you can't set up on Bastiodon b/c of Roar). Instead, replace Probopass with Skuntank.
    • Don't mention LO, you should never ever use that on CM Duosion. The bulk is just way too much to pass up.
    Remove these three points. They're unnecessary and don't belong here.

    [SET COMMENTS] (OTR)
    • This section really needs work. A lot of your points are unnecessary and/or don't belong in SC. Just talk about how Trick Room can let Duosion bypass its sucky Speed, and how its good bulk and SpA can let it set up and sweep. Also you need to explain all of the moves, not just Signal Beam and Recover.
    • Little nitpicky, but change the name to "Offensive Trick Room." It's the standard name for OTR sets.
    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS] (OTR)
    • You mention the EV spread twice. Cut the second mention.
    • Again, cut the talk about Taunt. Taunt shutting down Duosion doesn't belong in AC.
    [Other Options]
    • When talking about Trick + Orb, also mention it loses a significant amount of bulk with Eviolite.
    Overall, this skeleton needs a lot of work. (Don't feel bad about that though, you're pretty new here and QC is here to help :) .) Implement these changes, and I'll take another look later.
    unfixable and Soulgazer like this.
  3. unfixable

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    Added all of these changes :) Thank you also, I am really trying to get better at these.
  4. Raseri

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    Thunder should be slashed with Signal Beam on CM, maybe even go before it.

    A CM pokemon that wrecks Mandibuzz is amazing, and it hits Skuntank harder than Signal beam too. Thoughts?
  5. unfixable

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    This is true, I shall slash it in :) this is amazing, I never thought of that! Thanks so much!
  6. unfixable

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    Ok, so is anyone else can check it?
  7. tennisace

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  8. unfixable

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  9. unfixable

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    Wait, I had a question here, can't Mandibuzz just use a combo of Roost + Whirlwind to remove all boosts and heal off any damage taken? So it really isn't as effective is it?
  10. Raseri

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    Whirlwind is on 28% of Mandibuzz. Most Mandi don't run it and would have to switch in on the Calm Mind, then take a Thunder as they taunt. It's not a goo scenario for Mandibuzz. Thunder is probably the better move right now, but then again I haven't used duosion that much lately. Definitely keep Thunder slashed.
  11. FLCL

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    mandibuzz can't use whirlwind without taking a huge hit from thunder and there's always that high chance to paralyze which limits roost. with that being said, thunder should be the first slash since its one of duosion's main niches over musharna

    edit ninja raseris
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2013
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  12. unfixable

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    I will for sure, thanks for clarifying though. I will keep that there :)
  13. unfixable

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    Any other changes that should be made?
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2013
  14. Namso

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    Doesn't Signal Beam already deal with Mandibuzz well enough? I mean, with Stealth Rock damage and +1 Signal Beam, it's going to take roughly 50% damage if it attempts to Whirlwind, and so Mandibuzz may not be able to Roost off that damage due to phazing in something that it's threatened by. If it does end up recovering lost HP, then whatever, since if Mandibuzz is the main Duosion answer, it won't be able to phaze it once Duosion is the last Pokemon. For Taunt variants, they will most certainly lose as Mandibuzz will get hit super effectively by Signal Beam if it tries to Roost (2HKO at +1).

    I don't particularly understand the purpose of running the inaccurate Thunder for the sole reason of harming Mandibuzz when it can't actually do anything towards Duosion. Thunder is nowhere near the main niche over Musharna in my opinion. The main niche it has is it can't be Toxic stalled which Musharna is susceptible to if it doesn't run Heal Bell, and if it runs Heal Bell, then it loses to Mandibuzz and other Dark-types 100% of the time. I don't know, it just seems like a really awkward, inferior, and unnecessary move to run and makes more sense to be put in AC if anything.

    Just my thoughts.
  15. Raseri

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    just ignore Fuzznip. The extra strength on Thunder is very handy to not be taunt stalled by Mandibuzz.

    2/3 this is good to go now
  16. Raseri

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    Chesnaught is banned again. If anyone wants to take this over let me know
  17. Namso

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    I would just like to say that I find it quite disrespectful and unprofessional of you to completely dismiss my rather legitimate concerns regarding the use of Thunder. You said so yourself that you haven't used Duosion much lately, so you're basing your judgement purely on theory unless proven otherwise. I'm not speaking from a lack of experience, Duosion's on my most recent NU team that doesn't date far back. I would personally run teammates that can deter Mandibuzz instead of relying on Thunder, which is a pretty terrible move to run on a CM user in general. For one, running Thunder means you now lose to opposing CM Duosion and Musharna running Signal Beam, and basically every other one such as Gardevoir and Beheeyem. Thunder as a coverage move can also be more easily taken advantage of with Ground-types and the like. It should be AC if anything in my opinion, since it's literally only for Mandibuzz who is still dealt with. Running Signal Beam is very useful for other Psychic-types, specifically the aforementioned Duosion and Musharna, as well as Exeggutor and Jynx. You're also not prone to being Substitute stalled by Liepard and Mandibuzz waiting for the inevitable Thunder miss, among whatever else exists that isn't hampered significantly by either move. It still doesn't leave you open to Mandibuzz whatsoever. Signal Beam hits it super effectively as it Roosts. Stealth Rock prevents it from continuously switching in. Try to Toxic it or run teammates to pressure it, which is what most people do to defeat Mandibuzz anyway.

    So no, don't "just ignore Fuzznip." As far as I know, I'm not speaking nonsense. So instead of blatantly rejecting my input, address them in an appropriate manner so it can be discussed. I understand this is being reassigned, however, so whoever takes this thread over, keep this in mind. Thanks.
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  18. Hollywood

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    I find it quite disrespectful and unprofessional to dismiss the arguments brought up by people who are experienced with Thunder Duosion without trying it yourself. :o
  19. Raseri

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    the thing about Thunder is: it's strong as fuck. Mandibuzz absolutely shuts down most psychic-types, while also giving stronger neutral coverage against almost everything else. The paralysis chance is also great. The accuracy sucks, but if I'm using Duosion its because i want a CM psychic type that doesn't lose to Mandibuzz.

    I have heard absolutely nothing from about removing Thunder from anyone on the QC team. And I trust their judgment. I've discussed this with Treecko and FLCL (and soulgazer too) and we all believe Thunder is superior. If you want Signal Beam, use Musharna.

    Is any QC Member opposed to making Thunder the primary slash? If so, please speak up, I haven't heard from you yet.
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  20. FLCL

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    +1 4 SpA Duosion Signal Beam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mandibuzz: 102-121 (24.11 - 28.6%) -- possible 5HKO

    +1 4 SpA Duosion Signal Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 73-87 (17.25 - 20.56%) -- possible 7HKO

    +1 4 SpA Duosion Thunder vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 234-276 (55.31 - 65.24%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    you can't really beat mandibuzz without thunder since it will just taunt you and stall you out but thunder has a chance high to paralyze which means you're going to beat it most of the time unless you're really lucky. it's also better against targets such as skuntank, probopass, and metang and is one of duosion's selling factors over calm mind musharna, which is generally better. also, using "teammates that can deter mandibuzz" does not prevent it from walling you throughout the match with its outstanding bulk and preventing you from ever sweeping the opposing team. you're underestimating how difficult it is to get rid of the top counter to duosion in the tier. how many pokemon can toxic mandibuzz before it taunts it? as for calm mind wars, you have to realize that in the current metagame most players choose to forgo calm mind musharna for the pivot set because of the presence of mandibuzz, which is the main reason to use thunder on duosion in the first place. even then, thunder is only 20% weaker than signal beam and the calm mind wars will most likely be decided by other factors.
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  21. scorpdestroyer

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    +1 4 SpA Duosion Thunder vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mandibuzz: 328-386 (77.54 - 91.25%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    +1 4 SpA Duosion Signal Beam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mandibuzz: 102-121 (24.11 - 28.6%) -- 1.37% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    Fuzznip's points are legitimate, that running Thunder means you lose to other Psychic-types and Exeggutor, as well as being haxed more often but seeing the above, Thunder absolutely destroys Mandibuzz. The flaws of Thunder should be emphasized in the analysis but being a CM Psychic that defeats Mandibuzz is a huge feat that deserves a slash.

    I'm not a QC member but I think Thunder should have the secondary slash after Signal Beam, because using Thunder leaves you open to more things that Fuzznip mentioned than Signal Beam, while Signal Beam still hits Mandi for neutral, even if it isn't a lot edit ok FLCL convinced me now I think that Thunder should be first slash

    Edit ffff ninja'd
  22. scorpdestroyer

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    Fine I'll take this over
  23. scorpdestroyer

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