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Durant Suspect Discussion

Discussion in 'BW RU' started by Oglemi, Feb 14, 2012.

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  1. Oglemi

    Oglemi I ask consent before I thrash anuses.
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    What you're expected to do in this thread:

    1. Post which sets you used in the round and what you found good about it, what beat it, etc.

    2. Discuss Durant's place in the tier, has the metagame adapted properly to it? Does it break the metagame? What counters are there to Durant?

    3. All Council members are expected to post their thoughts on, experiences using, and experiences against Durant in this thread. As of now the Council isn't determined, but they will have to eventually!

    4. The Council, when decided, should also post here to figure out a time when they can get on IRC on #rarelyused to have a dedicated discussion on the suspects. Not all Council members are expected to make decided time, but MOST if not all Council members should try their damndest to attend.
  2. Omicron

    Omicron
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    There are several hard counters to Durant in Qwilfish, Steelix, Aggron, Gligar, and Magneton, to name a few. Durant is definitely a powerful force in the RU metagame, be it the Choice Band set, or the more common Hone Claws set. However, it has terrible Special Defense and HP, which means that it dies to almost any somewhat powerful special attack. It also cannot survive any Fire-type attack thanks to its typing. Durant is clearly not broken because of the aforementioned reasons.
  3. Molk

    Molk mfw houndoom might drop
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    Qwilfish: walls durant lacking thunder fang, but what exactly does it do back? waterfall doesnt hurt at all. and durant can hone claws again to negate intimidate, and baton pass to a counter to qwil to gain momentum.

    steelix: dig!, jk no arguments here

    aggron: is 2hkoed by CB iron head 712 Atk vs 396 Def & 294 HP (80 Base Power): 154 - 183 (52.38% - 62.24%) meaning it cannot switch in on durant, it can only revenge kill it

    +1 hone claws for good measure 712 Atk vs 396 Def & 294 HP (80 Base Power): 201 - 237 (68.37% - 80.61%)

    Gligar: is 2hkoed after rocks 100% of the time by iron head; at +1 712 Atk vs 508 Def & 334 HP (80 Base Power): 157 - 186 (47.01% - 55.69%), also Bp on the switch in blah blah blah gain momentum

    magneton: Durant cant do anything to it, but what it can do is pass a hone claws boost to a pokemon that can take on magneton, or Bp as it switches in to gain momentum

    anyways, this does not mean i think durant is broken, im unecided. Durant may have counters, or it may not, its just that some of these simply dont work as counters
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2014
  4. Avira

    Avira

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    I have found Durant to be a potent threat during this stage of RU, with the Life Orb set being the most common and threatening set due to Hone Claws patching up some of Durant’s accuracy issues caused by Hustle in exchange for 50% more power. Although the Choice Band set has a very high degree of raw power and makes for a good hit and run Pokémon, I do believe that is not ideal for Durant to be locked into a single move.


    Durant is quite fast with its 109 Base Speed, but there are commonly seen Pokémon that can outspeed it (higher Base Speed, Choice Scarf, Unburden or Speed Boost) and do significant damage back to it (Significantly hindering a sweep or outright KOing it) with STAB attacks or by using special attacks since Durant has awful special defense. Notable species that do that are Moltres, Aerodactyl, Sceptile, Rotom, Sharpedo, Rotom-c, Galvantula, Hitmonlee, Accelgor, Typhlosion, Manectric, Primeape, Archeops, and Medicham. Durant should not be overwhelming offensive teams or balanced teams as they should all have a way of killing it before it does too much damage.


    Durant's tremendous power is more effective against defensive teams, and the amount of species that can take its attacks are definitely lower in quantity than the amount that can outspeed/KO it. However, as of now, I do not think it is broken. Even if you opt not to use a steel (Steelix has too many exploitable weaknesses in my opinion and is not particularly useful outside of beating Honchkrow), Durant can be weakened by Cofagrigus' Mummy, and have its boosts Hazed away, which can be partnered by Qwilfish, Poliwrath, Alomomola, or Omastar (which nearly OHKOs with Scald), to hit it until is KO'd or crippled by a burn.
  5. lars

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    Agree with most of this, but Steelix is actually pretty good. Of course as a Honchkrow counter, but is also a reliable SR setter, phazer, and general physical wall. It also works well as a check to some TR strategies as well.

    If Durant had priority, I would certainly be leaning towards "broken", however it doesn't really stand out above other boosting sweepers in the tier (as in each has advantages / disadvantages, but nothing overly game-breaking) It has a couple "complete" counters and some decent checks, as well as being (fairly) easy to revenge kill.

    Now, I probably won't complain if he ends up leaving, but I think Durant is an important common Stall check. Being able to do fair damage to the usual stall team members and being neutral to rocks and immune to poison is pretty handy. (Unboosted Durant = heavy damage to even max def Mandibuzz with rock moves, gets 54-64% on standard munchlax, x-scissor = death to Tangrowth and Slowking)

    He can definitely hold his own against offense and balance teams too, but it unlikely he will get more than 1 or 2 kills unless it's late game cleaning. Life Orb, hazards, and priority wear him down plenty.

    My opinion one of the better offensive choices in the tier, but not broken.
  6. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Your calcs for Gligar are wrong Molk. CB Iron Head does 36.22 - 43.11% to physically defensive Gligar (tested with 2 calculators), so Gligar is a counter.
  7. Lee

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    Molk factored Life Orb into his calculation...he must be referring to a HC set.

    And what is Gligar doing to Durant exactly? Earthquake deals a whopping 30% to 4/0 Durant while he Hones Claws again. Scanning Gligar's movepool and I don't think he learns a single move that can allow him to effectively counter HC Durant.
  8. alexwolf

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    Yeah you are right. Gligar cannot do anything to HC Durant, but counters CB Durant, which i thought he was talking about.

    The only think that Gligar can do is take the hit from the +1 Durant, or let him HC again, and then with a slower U-turn bring out a faster special attacker unharmed. Of 'course Gligar will be hard pressed to find a moveslot for U-turn, just saying that Gligar has a way to deal with HC Durant.
  9. Lee

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    Yeah, I used to use U-turn Gligar + Choice Band Weavile to counter YacheChomp back in DPPT and it was a fairly effective strategy provided your team didn't give Garchomp too many easy switch-ins. I suppose the same strategy could be used here but don't forget about the flinching effect of Iron Head - one flinch and it's game over Gligar.
  10. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf meh
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    Durant: Broken

    Counters: Steelix
    Strong Checks: Magneton, Qwilfish, Gligar, Poliwrath
    Lesser Checks: Aggron, Sceptile, Accelgor, Entei, Scarfed Special Attackers

    One Pokemon in all of RU hard counters Durant, that being Steelix, who cannot directly threaten Durant insofar as Earthquake not being an OHKO and Durant being able to switch out.

    Magneton walls Durant's primary options, bar Dig, but provides free switch in opportunities to Baton Pass variants. Qwilfish should beat Durant most of the time due to the frequency of it carrying Haze/Thunder WAve/Taunt, but will lost to a CB Thunder Fang. Gligar 3HKOs Durant while being 2HKOd by Iron Head in return, Iron Head's flinch chance also benefits Durant. Poliwrath wins unless against a CB Thunder Fang.

    Aggron is 2HKOd by CB Durant Iron head, Entei OHKOd by Stone Edge, the other checks cannot switch in but will revenge bar Focus Blast missing.


    For offensive teams, that leaves: Aggron, Poliwrath, Entei and revenge killers as viable methods of dealing with Durant, Aggron and Poliwrath being less viable for their stealing of momentum.

    Stall teams have Steelix, Qwilfish, and Gligar, although Qwilfish will be worn down without well played wish support.

    Balanced teams have Magneton and the above mentioned checks and counters to check/counter Durant.

    To summarize this portion, any team not running Steelix or Magneton is liable to be swept by Durant if the conditions shift slightly in Durant's favour.


    So far this seems like a decent argument as to why Durant shouldn't be banned. However, should Durant achieve a Honce Claws boost, the only Pokemon that can safely switch in are Magneton and Steelix (and Poliwrath to a far lesser extent), the others being crippled, and being unable to switch in a second time.

    Now, Durant, as you all know sits at an amazing speed tier, 109, which enables it to outspeed a majority of the tier without a Choice Scarf, making it very difficult to stop. Its natural power, and the threat of a Choice band will frequently cause switches, allowing for Hone Claws boosts to come unscathed. Should the attacker stay in, Durants excellent physical bulk ensures that the attack will be shrugged of easily, leaving the opponent in a worse position. If needs be it can also take weaker special attacks reasonably well.

    With this said, what should be emphasized is the frequency with which Durant can set up. A large number of Durants checks and counters lack reliable recovery and, as such, cannot take Durant on multiple times. With the ease with which Durant can set up, as mentioned previously, these checks become forced to take Durant the first time, and then again when it sets up later in the match, something that is incredibly difficult to do with hazard presence and other teammates that need to be checked.

    Then there is the CB Durant factor, which states that if you bring in a check to Hone Claws Durant, expecting it to set up, you get smashed by a Choice Banded move that will cripple you, case in point being Aggron. Furthermore, most teams with usually only have one solid answer to Durant, which is usually only capapble of completely stopping one variant of Durant. If the check is weakened through the course of battle, or if the Durant set is the one which the opponent cannot answer, Durant will sweep.

    Hustle makes stuff miss, Hone Claws counters that, yadda yadda.

    In addendum to the previous statement about the ease with which Durant can set up, it is also important to not that it is not difficult to switch it into play, due to its numerous resistances, as well as its Stealth Rock neutrality and Toxic Spikes immunity.


    There's probably more to say but my mind is losing focus so i'll summarize from here.

    • Only 2 Pokemon will immunize against a sweep, all other checks are beaten with small amounts of previous damage, or the correct coverage move.
    • Playstyles are restricted fairly significantly in their choice of Pokemon to beat Durant.
    • Huge attack stat and amazing speed makes it a deadly threat to begin with, exacerbated by Choice Band.
    • Once set up with Hone Claws, very few Pokemon can take it on.
    • setting up a Hone Claws is easily done due to numerous resistances, propensity to cause switches and entry hazard resistance
    • Hustle boosts its power even further, accuracy drop is negated after a Hone Claws.

    Additionally, Baton Pass is a very viable option on Durant. This accomplishes multiple things. Firstly, it gives Durant a means to bypass Intimidate users such as Qwilfish, boosting a second time to regain its attack boost. Secondly, it ensures that it will not lose to Magneton, passing away to survive another day. Thirdly, and most importantly, it allows Durant to pass boosts to teammates that can abuse the Honce Claws boost, for example, CB Aerodactyl, who can now spam Stone Edge's all day. This gives Durant another dimension that adds to its versatility, the elemnt of team support, where even if you manage to stop Durant it can continue the momentum and continue the threat with another dangerous sweeper.
  11. Avira

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    I think perhaps I should have elaborated on Durant's power as my previous post may have made some Pokemon appear as better checks than they actually are.

    A stall team with physically defensive Qwilfish that switches in on Durant as it uses Hone Claws takes 48.8-57.5% from a Stone Edge before it uses Haze, which considerably limits Qwilfish's ability to check it. Yes, Rest is an option on Qwilfish, but typically it is not a good choice to immediately use Rest after using Haze since Durant might potentially boost further, and the opponent can easily capitalize on the the free turn when Rest was used. To better cope with Durant using Qwilfish, it is best to use either Cofagrigus or Steelix. Other Ghost types just don't do the trick since they take massive damage from Durant and Rotom, which resist its STAB attacks, is even frailer than Qwilfish. And again, Cofagrigus as well as Qwilfish need to deal with many threats in RU, meaning that they may not be in good enough health to deal with Durant. It is not always possible to pass a Wish to them or even use Heal Bell if significant offensive pressure has been applied.

    Poliwrath can also be used to take it Hone Claws Durant, since it resists the STAB attacks as well as Stone Edge. Using it makes it absolutely necessary to run a Rock/Steel though since it is Honchkrow bait. Such a team finds Gallade very threatening and it may not be ideal to use Poliwrath and Steelix together for this reason. Omastar is the only bulky Water type that can do considerable damage to Durant, but it takes neutral damage from STAB attacks and doesn't have recovery outside of Rest and can often be forced out by the rest of the team due to its typing, taking damage from entry hazards. Again, using a Steel is probably necessary, even with the extra weaknesses gained by using a RU Steel type.

    If Cofagrigus switches in as Durant uses Hone Claws, a +1 LO Iron Head does 187-222 Hit Points of damage to Physically Defensive Cofagrigus (58.4-69.3%). If a flinch does not occur, Durant would be wise to switch out, as its boosts will have been Hazed away, leaving it significantly weaker. Cofagrigus does need Wish support if the Durant user is competent and will switch Durant out when conditions for sweeping are not idea, like in the above situation. If a flinch does occur, Cofagrigus would need to switch out or risk getting KOd as it takes 124-147 Hit Points of damage from a Durant without the Hustle boost at +1, which can KO with consecutive high damage rolls (this calculation also assumes that Cofagrigus was at 100% when coming in, which is not necessarily the case since Cofagrigus is needed to check many key threats and because of the prevalance of entry hazards in the tier). A stall team using Cofagrigus might use Alomomola for Wish support, which takes 250-295 Hit Points of damage (46.8-55.2%) from a +2 (Predicts the switch) LO X-Scissor without Hustle. Stall does not fancy making risky predictions, so if the opponent knows that Cofagrigus is absolutely vital to stopping another Pokemon from sweeping the team, the choice to use Hone Claws can be easy to make if Cofagrigus got flinched by Iron Head. It would then be a gamble to hope that Scald burns Durant as Durant will have the advantage in this situation.

    Durant is a tough Pokemon to handle because of the higher immediate power compared to any other Pokemon in the tier. Its immediate damage output being so great puts a considerable strain on defensive teams to not bring in something that Durant can set up on, which is not always possible, and many checks to it can be eliminated by some prior damage. Having said that, I do think that it is suspect worthy as opposed to Sharpedo, but at present, I am not convinced that Durant is broken.
  12. D4RR3N

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    So yeah, after thinking for a while, I guess imma shoot my opinions in.

    There are two common sets for Durant, one being the Hone Claws set and another one being the Choice Banded set. In my opinion, Durant isn't that hard to stop if you know the set it carries. But the biggest problem is, you'll never know whether if you're opponent's running a Choice Banded set, Hone Claws set, or to a lesser extent, the Choice Scarfed set. Example: Alomomola switches in, expecting a Choice Banded Iron Head, but instead, Durant Hone Claws up, and proceeds to deciminate it. Ok lets have another example: you're having TrickScarf Uxie versus Durant. You're expecting tim to expect a switch and Hone Claws up, so you trick'd him. But then, it turns out he's Scarfed. Congratulations, now you have a dead Uxie.

    "Counters":
    Ok, the so called "counters" listed by people above includes:

    Qwilfish
    Gligar
    Poliwrath
    Aggron
    Magneton
    Steelix

    So here. Ok so, Qwilfish. Qwilfish isn't a counter to Durant, at all. Yeah it counters the CB set pretty well, but not the Hone Claws set. Durant just wouldn't give a fuck bout the Waterfalls Qwilfish fires off at it. It can pretty much set up on it, as long as Qwil doesnt carry Haze, that is.

    Gligar
    Same as Qwilfish, Gligar wouldn't be having a great time dealing with Durant either. Despite having around over 500 defense, Gligar still finds itself struggling against Durant as +1 LO Iron Head has a decent chance to 2HKO it, and with rocks up, it's a solid 2HKO.

    Poliwrath
    Not much to say here, but some variants of Durant carries Thunderfang, so Poliwrath wouldn't be considered as the safest counter.

    Aggron
    Not a counter at all, it's only a check. There's certainly no way of switching it into Durant, as CB Iron Head always 2HKOs it. Hone Claws Durant might be easier to take on, but 30% chance of flinching wouldn't be cool, at all. Oh and, in order to check Durant, you'll need Fire Punch as Head Smash doesnt have reliable accuracy to be classified as a check, and imo having Fire Punch on Aggron is just a waste of a move.

    Magneton
    Now, this thing is a real counter to Durant, at least to CB and Hone Claws variants. The only variant it has trouble against is Hone Claws + Baton Pass variant, as it can passes to whoever when Magneton switches in, sometimes with even boosts already.

    Steelix
    Only mon that can take everything Durant throws at it, and Dtail it out.

    Will edit in checks later.

    Conclusion
    With nothing other then Steelix and Magneton being able to switch in safely against Durant, in my opinion it's broken. Yeah, it has checks, but did having checks stop Excadrill from being banned from OU? Or even Staraptor from UU? Or Porygon-Z from RU? So yeah, that's it I guess, feel free to say me wrong.
  13. PK Gaming

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    I stopped being a useless piece of shit all day and started playing RU more seriously!

    It is in my opinion, that Durant is too strong for RU. Most of know the bog standard checks for Durant (Aggron, Magneton, Qwilfish and Poliwrath) and his one counter Steelix, but I don't think thats enough to justify his RU positioning, Simply having checks & counters is not enough to avoid being banned. Durant can bypass his best checks most of the time anyway. (EG Aggron is 2HKOed by CB Iron Head, Qwilfish and Magneton are vulnerable to Baton Pass, Poliwrath can't do much back)

    I can't really add much to what the other pro-ban Durant users have said, but i've seen some pretty strong spike stacking teams that dominate with Durant. True, everything dominates with Spike stacking, but Durant is absolutely ridiculously simply due to how fast it is. RU is a pretty popular tier, but for some reason most of the players are
    A. Doing good, but using other types of Pokemon (Molk, Shakeitup, etc)
    B. Doing poorly
    C. Casuals playing the tier for fun

    If more players with a heavy competitive mindset played RU, I guarantee you that Durant would be extremely common.
  14. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    I am honestly surprised that we are talking about Durant, and yet noone has mentioned Cofagrigus as a counter or even a check.

    Defensive Cofagrigus counters the HC variant surviving a +1 Iron Head, losing 75% health max, while burning you or using Haze if it expects you to Baton Pass to a fire type. Even if, god forbid you get flinched, you have a a Durant with no attack boost at all, due to Mummy, which means that you can bring your check easy in.
    Against the CB variant, Cofagrigus is an invaluable check, as the only thing it truly fears is Iron Head, while if hit by anything else, his attack power drops dramatically. Btw talking about Iron Head it does 48%-57% to Cofagrigus, meaning that it almost always fails to 2hko after SR and Lefties.
    I know that Iron Head can flinch and high damage rolls screw you and this is why i said check to CB Durant.

    Also Qwilifish, when on stall teams, can easily counter CB Durant. While it may lose 49%-58% from T-Fang, it can switch out and recover with Wish later. T-Fang is one of the worst moves to be locked into anyway, since after Qwilfish Intimidates you, literally every stall poke can take you on.

    Finally, about CB Durant, what i don't understand, is why some people are so afraid of a poke that, even though it has immense power, can only achieve the 2hkoes that it wants only 64% of the time at best.
    If it uses Thunder Fang it gets the 2hkoes only 58% of the time, while if it uses Stone Edge it gets them only 40% of the time.

    I haven't played for the last 2 weeks, so i don't really have an opinion, but what i can say is that the CB set is a bit overated and that the most dangerous set, and the only one that i would ever use, is the offensive HC set, which is a very good RU poke.
  15. DittoCrow

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    Alright I guess I'll post my initial thoughts on Durant. Right now, I am undecided on whether it should be banned or not, but I am leaning towards ban. I'm undecided because I haven't seen many Durants being used this round. My teams also have not had trouble with Durant, probably due to the fact that I ran Steelix, Scald Poliwrath, and a special offense team.

    Durant's main flaw is its base 58 HP and base 48 SpD stats. This severely hinders its ability to switch into many attacks since it is so frail. The damage calc I use isn't working right now, so unfortunately I can't elaborate on this because I don't have proper evidence. I do know that LO Sceptile's Focus Blast OHKOs a 4 HP / 0 SpD Durant but Sceptile can't switch in safely. I would like to say that Durant cannot safely set up on most of the Pokemon in RU due to its frailty. However, it may not always need to set up since it has base 109 Speed and is able to outspeed stuff like Lilligant or Claydol and OHKO. When I come to a final conclusion I'll post everything that Durant can easily set up on.

    Counters to Durant: 3
    Steelix, Magneton, Poliwrath
    Steelix wins because EQ does around 30% while Durant can't harm Steelix. Just don't let it die or use Rest if you want Steelix to counter multiple Pokemon.
    Magneton traps non BP Durant; Durant can't touch this.
    Poliwrath resists Durant's moves and Scald 3HKOs (and there's a burn rate). Resttalk beats Durant making Poliwrath a solid counter.

    Checks:
    Like Texas mentioned, most faster special attackers can revenge kill Durant such as Scarf Manectric or LO Sceptile, which OHKOs with Focus Blast. Cofagrigus can also help by setting up Trick Room and 2HKOing with HP Fighting, but a +1 Durant will get the 2HKO first.

    This guy only has 3 counters. That's the main reason why I would consider Durant broken.

    For me, Durant is extremely similar to Honchkrow. It hits hard, only has a few counters/checks, and gets at least one kill per game. It also dies quickly due to LO recoil and hard hitting attacks such as Feraligatr's Waterfall + Aqua Jet. Maybe I'm making the wrong comparison, but if Honchkrow can stay in the tier with only a few counters then so should Durant. On the other hand, Durant is much faster and has a high base Defense and good Steel typing, allowing it to take priority hits such as Extreme Speed, Sucker Punch, Aqua Jet, and Mach Punch. I am going to make a final decision in the next few days. Hopefully someone can come up with a solid reason of why this should be banned or not , and hopefully the damage calc starts to work!
  16. DetroitLolcat

    DetroitLolcat Maize And Blue Badge Set :)
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    I have to use one of three pokemon in order to provide a full stop to an important threat without having to resort to one of the many checks, therefore it deserves to be permanently banned from RU!

    Okay, I would like to know when the "no counters=broken" argument faded and the "3 counters and plenty of checks=broken" argument became standard. As far as I'm concerned, if this metagame is balanced as is, there's no need to modify it.

    First, Durant can switch into very, very little. Let's look at the 1337 stats and see what Durant can switch into:

    1. Hitmonchan: no
    2. Entei: have fun with that
    3. Slowking: Scald does >60%, any offensive variants roast it.
    4. Sceptile: outsped and killed.
    5. Uxie: avoid Thunder Wave and you're good
    6. Cofagrigus: can't switch in, can barely 2KO
    7. Spiritomb: only on CB/RestTalk sets.
    8. Sharpedo: LOL
    9. Sigilyph: Can't switch in on Psycho Shift or Air Slash on the offensive set
    10. Aerodactyl: You're not switching in on Stone Edge
    11. Roselia: Avoid Sleep Powder and yeah
    12. Rotom: resists your STABs, Scarf outspeeds, Thunderbolt OHKOs with Rocks
    13. Moltres: nah
    14. Feraligatr: bad idea man
    15. Rotom-C: Only on Scarf Leaf Storm. You can't tank a Volt Switch
    16. Butterfree: +1 Bug Buzz OHKOs and outspeeds. LOL
    17. Probopass: Traps, paralyzes, kills. You probably won't land two hits with paralysis.
    18. Claydol: Earth Power hurts but you should be fine
    19. XLGor: Offensive kills, Lead can Final Gambit, Sub can wait for a miss.
    20. Aggron: no


    As you can see, though little can switch into Durant, Durant can switch into even less. It acts as a revenge killer in most cases, coming in on a kill to recapture momentum. It even has multiple counters and an ability that shoots itself in the foot. Baton Pass variants aren't that special as they usually can only pass one boosting move.

    If we lower the bar for banning this low, I can think of a few other pokemon in other tiers who might need to leave too...
  17. DittoCrow

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    I didn't mean that "since it only has 3 counters it should be banned!11," I'm saying that's what makes it broken rofl. I haven't even made up my mind on whether to ban it or not. If you're facing a good player, they'll be able to take down your Durant counter. Steelix, Magneton, and Poliwrath are very simple Pokemon to beat since they all lack reliable recovery and are weak to common moves. If you've ever used Durant, you would know that it has a very easy time sweeping when you take out the counters (if the opponent even has one).
  18. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    Detroit,

    I don't think Its as simple as you make it out to be. For example, Thundurus couldn't switch into most of BW OU and it still dominated due to its incredible sweeping ability, similar to what Durant is doing in RU. Excadrill was too valuable of a Pokemon to switch in. Furthermore, both Pokemon had about 1 counter, and very few checks, but they were deemed broken anyway due to how overwhelming powerful they were at sweeping.

    I think you're on the right track, but you'll have try a different approach in order to refute excellent points made by the pro ban side.
  19. Pearl.

    Pearl.

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    imo, durant is op in ru mainly due to the fact that all of its counters lack recovery, which means it's very easy to rack up enough damage to put them on x-scissor or iron head's ko range. everything else relevant has already been covered, but since this isn't enough i'm just gonna say what everyone else said. a combination of hustle, life orb and a boost from hone claws means that few things are able to take more than two hits from durant. also, the last move on hone claws set (which is either thunder fang, rock slide or baton pass) can completely shut down some usual counters durant has (baton pass can be used to avoid scarfless magneton, thunder fang is a 2hko on qwilfish and rock slide is pretty self explanatory), which is awesome. the choice band set is also very good (and i risk saying it's underrated) since it hits hard right of the bat and most people don't expect that. it can also work in a similar way gen 4 choice specs jolteon worked. both of them are frail hard hitting pokemon that can fit baton pass on a choiced set to scout stuff, except durant is much stronger (like it was already mentioned over and over).

    last, but not least, most people understimate durant's ability to switch in. some pokemon, like hidden power rock lilligant, will do, in the worst case scenario, around 40% to durant, which means it still has 6/7 (depending on damage rolls) hits to deliver, considering it's using a life orb. also, 58/112 defense isn't that bad, giving durant the ability to tank feraligatr's aqua jet or hitmonchan's mach punch in a last resort. oh, and i've used durant for pretty much the entire round, so i know my shit.
  20. Ningildo

    Ningildo

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    And Lucario has no sure fire counters. At all. Still OU.
    Why?
    It's checked by so many offensive threats it's not even funny. Which strangely sounds exactly like Durant. And you can't say that Lucario's have recovery, because in the same case here, one move change and said "counters" are fucked. Just like Durant!
    Having no surefire counters does not equal broken.

    Oh, so having the ability to switch in into ONE special attacker is now labeled as the ability to switch into all neutral ones?
    I know you didn't say that, but it would be a lie to say you didn't imply it just a bit.
    And that's not how Lilli gets played. It gets in once it knows it can Sleep Powder something and then set up a QD. After a QD, a +1 LO HP Rock from Timid Lilli does 236 damage minimum, a sure OHKO after SR. Only the priority bit I can see as completely correct. And CB Durant is much less used than HC for a reason; having to rely on Stone Miss accuracy for 100% accurate moves and 64 for Stone Miss itself is horrible. Don't get me wrong, it works...when the moves actually don't miss, that is.
    I still fail to see how it's broken.
  21. MegaKick

    MegaKick

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    Except that lucario has to predict the right move in order to have no true counters. Durant on the other hand can jusy plow through almost everything. Without a choice scarf pokemon durant will sweep your team, but that can be said about a lot of things. However, the few things that do stop it (steelix) don't sound all that scary when you realize they have no recovery and magneton is only a baton pass away. That's probably what breaks durant more than anything for me - the fact that if you bring in a counter while you hone claws he can just baton pass away to say charizard.

    IMO durant is a pokemon with some big flaws, but i think that it's excellent speed and immense power, combined with good defense and typing, plus a boosting move just right for it, make it a bit too much for the tier.
  22. Ningildo

    Ningildo

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    And since you know with maggy that he's going to BP, what stops you from Volt Switching out of there? For the record, the only thing that both of these pokemon have issues with are coverage issues. They can't kill everything in one set. Hence the comparison (for this and many other similarities).

    You use BP? Great! Now you are not gonna get revenged, but also can't kill Fire types without a boost if you forgo a Rock type move (and even then you'll have to hit on the switch, due most carrying a Scarf. Have fun with a 64 accurate move)! Each of Durant's last slots have one advantage over the other but have a gaping issue. If that gaping issue (coverage and what not) can be fixed with such ease that it makes a poke broken, you might as well ban Drag+Mag teams, since those remove the only resisting type of Dragon type attacks.

    ANY neutral STAB Special hit has the potential to KO Durant. And even if that can be said about other pokemon (talking about the Scarf poke thing here), why make it sound like it's unviable to do so?
    Honestly, against a Stall team, you'll lose thanks to hazards slowly killing you due phazing (which is the main way Stall deals with stuff), so it doesn't have issues. Offense have Scarfers which can revenge, or if having a scouting move, gain momentum from the obvious switch. Speaking of faster pokemon on Offense, Mixpedo can beat it easily thanks to Speed Boost.
    It can't switch in? Aww. Neither can Durant. Which brings me to my next point. Since Durant HAS to get in after a KO, you can already prepare by wrecking with a poke that it can't beat easily one on one (Scarf Thyplosion for example). Or just spam Volt Switch. Or Force it with a Scarfer while spike stacking.

    This is why I hate including team mates as we are talking about one vs one when discussing a suspect. Suddenly including 2 pokemon at once when discussing a suspect isn't helping, especially if the reason for doing so is to illustrate how easily the suspect's counters can be eliminated with ease by the second poke. Where I will point out that if this is so, you might as well ban all offensive pokemon that can pair up to hit on both sides of the spectrum. Or can trap the counter, etc. Drag+Mag, Pokemon that hate Ttar+duggy, hell, the entirety of offense would be banned.

    Long story short, Durant isn't broken. Too many checks, piss poor Sp Def make it impossible for that. It's amazing when given necessary support, but this is the case for any and all sweepers.
  23. Blue_Star

    Blue_Star
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    I think Durant is pretty overpowered, but i'm not sure if it deserves a ban. Sure, it does have sky high attack and high speed, but has some flaws (dies to Pichu's Thundershock) that prevent it from being bannable. Pretty much like Honchkrow and Gallade, who have incredibly powerful offensive stats, but were not banned because they have numerous checks / counters.
  24. Pearl.

    Pearl.

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    man, this is why i hate posting on suspect discussions. can't we just do this council thing without being forced to post here (speaking to texas)?

    first: don't try putting words in my mouth, i know that's not how lilligant is played, i was just using her as an example. when i said lilligant, i could've said roselia, tangrowth (some of them), cm uxie (this one doesn't work 100% of the time) and some other stuff. it's not a big list as i made it look, but it's still better than you imply. also, i didn't speak only about special hits, i also spoke about physical ones, js

    comparing durant to lucario is a little bit silly, since the later has better coverage, durant is much faster and durant doesn't fuck all its counters by changing its set or one move. steelix is still a counter to durant no matter what, though it's easy to...

    23.7% - 28.4%

    Modest Pichu with 252 SpA VS Durant using Thundershock. Durant is bulky!

    and with that i'm done with posting here
  25. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Another awesome offensive counter to Durant, which noone has mentioned yet is Scarf Magneton. Timid Magneton OHKOes 100% of the time with Tbolt without SR and leaves no chance to HC Durant to pass the boosts to a teammate.

    So for the HC set we have 3 solid counters, Steelix, Scarf Magneton and Circle Throw Poliwrath, and out of those 3 Magneton can fit on offensive teams, all 3 pokes can fit in balanced teams and Steelix and Poliwrath can fit in stall teams. So every playstyle has at least 1 solid counter for Durant's most dangerous set.

    The CB set has those counters: Steelix, Magneton, Gligar. And again there is a poke that can fit in any type of team.

    So every single playstyle has has options to counter Durant, especially the HC set, which is the most dangerous.

    Now if we wanted to talk about checks the list would be quite big. Any faster pokes that hit from the special spectrum can ohko Durant. Examples are Scarf Moltres, LO and Specs Sceptile, Scarf Galvantula and Manectric, Aerodactyl, scarf Rotom-A, scarf Rotom-C, Accelgor, Archeops, Scarf Typhlosion, Unburden, Hitmonlee and Sharpedo.
    Add the fact that as shown by DetroitLolCat, Durant cannot switch-in against most of the top RU pokes, and this means that most often than not Durant will be coming in after something of yours dies and after it kills 1 poke at best it is going to be forced out by any faster special attacker that all ofensive teams should carry.

    This means that against offensive teams Durant will pretty much come in after a kill, and after he kills something it is going to be forced out, which means a 1 for 1 trade, except that the other team will be one step ahead.

    Against stall teams, Durant will have a hard time breaking through a combination of Steelix, Cofagrigus, Qwilifsh, Gligar, Poliwrath and even Magneton.

    The teams that i imagine that will have the biggest problem against Durant are balanced teams, once their check/counter to Durant is worn down/removed. Most balanced teams have only 1 poke faster than Durant, a scarfer most likely, or only 1 counter and no checks, and as said before Durant's counters can be easily worn down without Wish support.
    So Durant will be a huge threat for balanced teams, but i don't think it would be so much to the point of being broken, because as shown he has 3 counters and ~12 checks.

    And even if it is broken, i don't think that we can know yet for sure. The metagame hasn't yet adapted fully to the new threats, and so some things stand out as too powerful. So let's let the people try to figure out some solutions and if they can't then let's procceed to take actions. But it is too early and since i don't see anyone finding Durant blatantly overpowered, then i think that for now he should stay in RU.

    EDIT: I now noticed that i only mentioned offensive checks. If we also take defensive, and by defensive i mean those that can take 1 hit and then kill back or cripple, then Entei, Cofagrigus, non choiced Moltres, Aggron and non choiced Rotom also come into play.
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