Durant Suspect Discussion

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Also why are people mentioning Gligar as a counter? CB Iron Head will 3HKO and +1 LO Iron Head will 2HKO, and it's not like Gligar can do anything against Durant unless if it has... Hidden Power Fire. Not to mention Iron Head's 30% flinch rate.
 

alexwolf

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Also why are people mentioning Gligar as a counter? CB Iron Head will 3HKO and +1 LO Iron Head will 2HKO, and it's not like Gligar can do anything against Durant unless if it has... Hidden Power Fire. Not to mention Iron Head's 30% flinch rate.
Gligar is a counter to CB Durant. It avoids the 2hko, and can Roost and eventually kill Durant back. Oh and if you want to mention the 30% flinch chance you may also want to mention the 80% accuracy of Iron Head. Gligar has 64% chance to land 2 Iron Heads, while having only a ~50% chance to land 3 hits. So good luck getting a flinch out of this 50% chance.
 
And since you know with maggy that he's going to BP, what stops you from Volt Switching out of there?
LOL what counter to durant carries volt switch?

For the record, the only thing that both of these pokemon have issues with are coverage issues. They can't kill everything in one set. Hence the comparison (for this and many other similarities).

You use BP? Great! Now you are not gonna get revenged, but also can't kill Fire types without a boost if you forgo a Rock type move (and even then you'll have to hit on the switch, due most carrying a Scarf. Have fun with a 64 accurate move)!
After rocks and a +1 boost durant can kill a lot of fire types right there, and those that he can't he can just switch to something like slowking. Now the fire type is at 50% next time it switches in and is definatly in KO range.

Each of Durant's last slots have one advantage over the other but have a gaping issue. If that gaping issue (coverage and what not) can be fixed with such ease that it makes a poke broken, you might as well ban Drag+Mag teams, since those remove the only resisting type of Dragon type attacks.
First off, I have a problem with dragons and OU in general so dont preach to me. Regardless, this thread is for RU, so while comparing durant to an OU pokemon for the sake of argument is ok try to stay a bit more on topic.

ANY neutral STAB Special hit has the potential to KO Durant. And even if that can be said about other pokemon (talking about the Scarf poke thing here), why make it sound like it's unviable to do so?
*coughsamecanbesaidaboutdeoxyscough* Secondly, it's not like any neutral hit will KO durant - it's defenses are bad but no sharpedo bad. Besides last I checked durant wasn't nominated as a suspect for it's defensive abilities.

Honestly, against a Stall team, you'll lose thanks to hazards slowly killing you due phazing (which is the main way Stall deals with stuff), so it doesn't have issues.
Except that durant kills the entire stall team while they phaze it. Even if they do eventually kill him with entry hazards, he'll have probably taken at least half the team with him. Not to mention again, he has baton pass which helps keep that momentum going against stall.

Offense have Scarfers which can revenge, or if having a scouting move, gain momentum from the obvious switch. Speaking of faster pokemon on Offense, Mixpedo can beat it easily thanks to Speed Boost.
I'll give you that

It can't switch in? Aww. Neither can Durant. Which brings me to my next point. Since Durant HAS to get in after a KO, you can already prepare by wrecking with a poke that it can't beat easily one on one (Scarf Thyplosion for example). Or just spam Volt Switch. Or Force it with a Scarfer while spike stacking.
If you make every pokemon on your team carry a fire move or volt switch you're losing to a lot of other things. This is another problem with durant - it is such a threat people need to play way too cautiosly around it.


This is why I hate including team mates as we are talking about one vs one when discussing a suspect. Suddenly including 2 pokemon at once when discussing a suspect isn't helping, especially if the reason for doing so is to illustrate how easily the suspect's counters can be eliminated with ease by the second poke. Where I will point out that if this is so, you might as well ban all offensive pokemon that can pair up to hit on both sides of the spectrum. Or can trap the counter, etc. Drag+Mag, Pokemon that hate Ttar+duggy, hell, the entirety of offense would be banned.
The difference is that strategies like those require smart play and good strategy, unlike durant. Also you have to include teamates when talking about this because pokemon in 6 v 6 not 1 v 1. Saying durant isn't broken because it requires team support is like saying a wide reciever is useless because he needs the quarterback to throw him the ball.


Long story short, Durant isn't broken. Too many checks, piss poor Sp Def make it impossible for that. It's amazing when given necessary support, but this is the case for any and all sweepers.
My arguments. Excuse any mistakes im tired and mobile.
 

alexwolf

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Answers in red.
Originally Posted by Fat Ningildo
And since you know with maggy that he's going to BP, what stops you from Volt Switching out of there?
LOL what counter to durant carries volt switch?
Magneton?

For the record, the only thing that both of these pokemon have issues with are coverage issues. They can't kill everything in one set. Hence the comparison (for this and many other similarities).

You use BP? Great! Now you are not gonna get revenged, but also can't kill Fire types without a boost if you forgo a Rock type move (and even then you'll have to hit on the switch, due most carrying a Scarf. Have fun with a 64 accurate move)!
After rocks and a +1 boost durant can kill a lot of fire types right there, and those that he can't he can just switch to something like slowking. Now the fire type is at 50% next time it switches in and is definatly in KO range.


Each of Durant's last slots have one advantage over the other but have a gaping issue. If that gaping issue (coverage and what not) can be fixed with such ease that it makes a poke broken, you might as well ban Drag+Mag teams, since those remove the only resisting type of Dragon type attacks.
First off, I have a problem with dragons and OU in general so dont preach to me. Regardless, this thread is for RU, so while comparing durant to an OU pokemon for the sake of argument is ok try to stay a bit more on topic.


ANY neutral STAB Special hit has the potential to KO Durant. And even if that can be said about other pokemon (talking about the Scarf poke thing here), why make it sound like it's unviable to do so?
*coughsamecanbesaidaboutdeoxyscough* Secondly, it's not like any neutral hit will KO durant - it's defenses are bad but no sharpedo bad. Besides last I checked durant wasn't nominated as a suspect for it's defensive abilities.
Actually Durant's special defense is worse than Sharpedo's. So yes almost any neutral special hit will ohko.

Honestly, against a Stall team, you'll lose thanks to hazards slowly killing you due phazing (which is the main way Stall deals with stuff), so it doesn't have issues.
Except that durant kills the entire stall team while they phaze it. Even if they do eventually kill him with entry hazards, he'll have probably taken at least half the team with him. Not to mention again, he has baton pass which helps keep that momentum going against stall.
Where did you get that from? If Durant kills entire stall teams, then these teams are shitty at best. Stall teams have plenty of ways to deal with Durant such as hazards, Steelix, Qwilfish, Cofagrigus, Poliwrath and Gligar. Not saying that he can't hurt stall, but saying that he kills the entire team while they phaze is pure exaggeration.

Offense have Scarfers which can revenge, or if having a scouting move, gain momentum from the obvious switch. Speaking of faster pokemon on Offense, Mixpedo can beat it easily thanks to Speed Boost.
I'll give you that

It can't switch in? Aww. Neither can Durant. Which brings me to my next point. Since Durant HAS to get in after a KO, you can already prepare by wrecking with a poke that it can't beat easily one on one (Scarf Thyplosion for example). Or just spam Volt Switch. Or Force it with a Scarfer while spike stacking.
If you make every pokemon on your team carry a fire move or volt switch you're losing to a lot of other things. This is another problem with durant - it is such a threat people need to play way too cautiosly around it.
Where did that came from? So the only things tha trouble Durant are Volt Switch and Fire moves? What about almost any STABed neutral special attack and many powerful physical attacks?


This is why I hate including team mates as we are talking about one vs one when discussing a suspect. Suddenly including 2 pokemon at once when discussing a suspect isn't helping, especially if the reason for doing so is to illustrate how easily the suspect's counters can be eliminated with ease by the second poke. Where I will point out that if this is so, you might as well ban all offensive pokemon that can pair up to hit on both sides of the spectrum. Or can trap the counter, etc. Drag+Mag, Pokemon that hate Ttar+duggy, hell, the entirety of offense would be banned.
The difference is that strategies like those require smart play and good strategy, unlike durant. Also you have to include teamates when talking about this because pokemon in 6 v 6 not 1 v 1. Saying durant isn't broken because it requires team support is like saying a wide reciever is useless because he needs the quarterback to throw him the ball.


Long story short, Durant isn't broken. Too many checks, piss poor Sp Def make it impossible for that. It's amazing when given necessary support, but this is the case for any and all sweepers.
 
I've probably got nothing to say that hasn't been said before, but just to make it clear: in my opinion Durant is NOT broken.

My first, and probably most obvious point, is how incredibly frail Durant is on the special side. I'm not gonna provide calcs because I can't be bothered, and because 58/48 speaks for itself. This means that the Hone Claws set cannot come in on any special attacker and reliably set up (and there are a lot of special attackers in the metagame), since instead of switching, the special attacker, hell even specially attacking WALL (like the previously mentioned Slowking) can simply stay in and attack Durant on the predicted Hone Claws. Durant is completely crippled after a Scald, more so if Slowking packs Surf/Flamethrower and can be picked off by priority.

Second, Durant is fast, but its weakness to special attacks means that any Scarfer can force it out. Common scarfers such as Manectric, Galvantula, Rotom, Moltres etc have no problems whatsoever in forcing Durant out, and gaining momentum through a Volt Switch.

Thirdly, Hustle may be an extremely potent ability, but you can't forget that it's a double-edged sword. This point is mainly directed to the Choice Band set. Relying on moves with the accuracy of Stone Edge on a frail Pokemon that really can't afford to miss is dangerous. Yes, Hustle gives Durant excellent power, but it's moves are very predictable; Iron Head, X-scissor and Rock Slide are staples on every Durant, and can easily be predicted. Furthermore, arguments such as Iron Head's flinch chance are, excuse my bluntness, dumb, since it's coming from a move with 80% accuracy, meaning that Durant cannot be expected to power/flinch through stuff like Gligar.

My last point is that Durant has COUNTERS. Steelix and Magneton can take anything, literally anything Durant can throw at them. The former can pHaze it out, meaning that a possible Baton Pass recipient is an irrelevant argument. Meanwhile, Durant will just be taking more entry hazard damage. As long as Durant doesn't dry pass on incoming Steelix or Magneton, they will always win against it. Scarfed Magneton will always outspeed and OHKO, while bulkier RestTalk variants can easily take X-scissors and eliminate it with HP Fire/Thunderbolt.
 
Holes, a lot of them

Uh, keeping up the momentum, lol. Not only will Volt Switch do a huge chunk if Durant stays in (assuming you're not carrying a Scarf), it will also avoid the situation of a bad match up in case of BP. Why this is a bad idea is beyond me...

Wouldn't that switch to Slowking be obvious? Please tell me how that isn't. And eventually (usually after one time) your opponent will catch on and use a coverage move. Or switch to a counter to Slowking.

Now, since it has bad defenses, how does it set up? Maybe against a Choice locked Grass attack but that's it. A poke needs to set up in the face of SOMETHING. If a poke can do that in only one situation, how can it set up easily against most teams?
And lol, saying that I need to try to stay on topic just to compare Deoxys with Durant.
Deoxys doesn't need set up to destroy entire teams, so comparing it to Durant is not aiding you.

And Stall doesn't use Intimidate Qwilfish, smart playing etc. which is the way stall is supposed to deal with offensive threats like Durant. You have one solid counter (who takes 93 damage tops with the spread on site), some defensive checks etc. How you kill them easy is hard to see...
And saying "not everyone carries them" is not helping. If you don't have some sort of physical wall, then yeah, it will rape you.

I said that you had to start with attacking with pokemon that Durant can't really switch into e.g. Special attackers.
I gave Typho as an example, but Sceptile and Accelgor can do the same.
Nowhere did I say you had to make everything carry a Fire move or a scouting move.
You could just revenge it with a Scarfer if it's that much of an issue.

And now finally, how does Durant not require smart play and good strategy? You say this without giving a reason. It's sole 100% counter can not be taken down without smart play/strategy etc. It's checks can all cut it's sweep short if not handled.
Thus it isn't that broken when it needs that amount of support, as it needs at least two or more pokemon to aids it sweep. So dedicating one half of a team to one pokemon that will sweep due the support is broken because...?
Then it's supported and all well supported pokemon can sweep with ease. If you make teams that can't force a reaction from your opponent and instead have to respond to his/her actions, then either you're playing stall or making horrible teams.


Edit: This is at Megakick obviously.
 
I used this set in this round to good success:

Durant @choice band
Hustle
252 atk, 252 spe
jolly

Iron Head
X-scissor
thunder fang
Faint attack

With a choice band, durant kills so much stuff. Iron head and x-scissor hit crazy hard with hustle and choice band boost, 2hkoing pretty much all physical walls in the tier. Thunder fang is almost exclusively for qwilfish, but also hits stuff like moltres harder. Faint attack works well with hustle and is great if I can't afford a miss or for killing switching in cofagrigus.

Durant is a great pokemon, but he has one extremely solid check. Steelix. Seeing as he has a pretty tough time switching in with such low hp and special defence, it's not too hard to kill him. Steelix is his only hard check, though, as gligar is still possibly 2hkoed by iron head in the more common hone claws sets after rocks which makes him a shaky counter. Hustle is also his fall as well as a great asset as one miss often spells death for the bug.

He's very tough to stop, but then again, so is so much in this tier. I think he still deserves another round in the tier seeing as there are still some very powerful offensive and defensive threats bouncing round in the tier.
 

complete legitimacy

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I have mixed thoughts on Durant. While I feel that is easily played around, it is still extremely hard to stop once it gets Hone Claws boost. Hustle is the perfect ability for it, as Hone Claws and Hustle put together along with Life Orb is essentially a +4 boost (1.5*1.5*1.3=2.925). It reaches 721 Attack at +1 with a Jolly nature.

Like said before, there are three solid counters to Durant, and a bunch of other checks. What lets me down about Durant is its limited coverage. It can't touch most Steels, or Poliwrath. If Durant got Earthquake, then I'd definitely say it's broken, but it has to settle for Dig, which is unusable. If it had the coverage of something like Manectric, there would be nobody wanting to keep it in the tier.

It's also easily revenge killed. Several common Scarfers such as Typhlosion (Magmortar's better but whatever), Manectric, and Rotom-C. Sharpedo can also revenge kill by using Protect, and KOs with Hydro Pump. While Durant's physical defense is great, allowing it to beat Scarfers like Drapion and Primeape. It also resists Extremespeed and Sucker Punch, leaving it only hit neutrally, and even then not very hard, by Mach Punch and Aqua Jet.

In conclusion, I'm on the fence, but don't feel that a ban is necessary at this point. Allowing more time for a suspect to be discussed and voted on, especially one like Durant where there is mixed opinions, is always beneficial. It is definitely not "far too powerful to exist in a balanced metagame." I believe that more time is necessary to truly determine is broken or not. I'd appreciate that the council members took my post into consideration.
 
Ok, so this comment is just directed at everyone using Baton Pass as an argument for Durant being broken. Who has ever used Baton Pass Durant? Why, in your right mind, would you ever use Baton Pass over Rock Slide or one of its other moves? I for one have never seen a Baton Pass variant, ever. Just because it can be used doesn't mean it will be used, so all these arguments are just theoretical. No one uses Baton Pass on Durant, and for a good reason, because running Rock Slide is so much more useful (in most cases). All this talk of "Durant can Baton Pass to an appropriate counter" is just irrelevant, because you are now predicting battle moves, which is definitely not a legitimate argument. Also, when you say this, it doesn't say anything about Durant's brokenness, all it says is that Durant can switch to something else that can take care of its counter / check. You could do the same thing by simply switching out - i.e. double switching or w/e.
 

Lee

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Omicron said:
No one uses Baton Pass on Durant, and for a good reason, because running Rock Slide is so much more useful (in most cases)
Also the fact that Baton Passing a Hone Claws boost isn't really all that great.
 
Ok, so this comment is just directed at everyone using Baton Pass as an argument for Durant being broken. Who has ever used Baton Pass Durant? Why, in your right mind, would you ever use Baton Pass over Rock Slide or one of its other moves? I for one have never seen a Baton Pass variant, ever. Just because it can be used doesn't mean it will be used, so all these arguments are just theoretical. No one uses Baton Pass on Durant, and for a good reason, because running Rock Slide is so much more useful (in most cases). All this talk of "Durant can Baton Pass to an appropriate counter" is just irrelevant, because you are now predicting battle moves, which is definitely not a legitimate argument. Also, when you say this, it doesn't say anything about Durant's brokenness, all it says is that Durant can switch to something else that can take care of its counter / check. You could do the same thing by simply switching out - i.e. double switching or w/e.
Yeah I agree. If you run Baton Pass, Durant is going to have a lot more counters/checks such as Moltres, Entei, or physically defensive Mandibuzz. Durant is a lot more threatening with Rock Slide because it can outspeed all Fire types in RU. Also, like Lee said, not a lot of things can benefit from a Hone Claws boost besides Aerodactyl and a few others. Hone Claws + 3 attacks is definitely the best set, so further discussing CB or BP is pointless.

Durant has so much power in the RU tier even without a boost, and Iron Head/X-Scissor/Rock Slide has pretty good coverage. Only 4 Pokemon in RU resist these moves: Steelix, Poliwrath, Magneton, and Klinklang. Klinklang loses to Durant (unless it runs HP Fire) because it is 2HKO'd by a +1 Iron Head.

Some things I've been looking at while considering whether to ban Durant.
1. How easily it can set up.
2. Does it need to set up?

1. Durant has a pretty hard time setting up unless it can scare the opposing Pokemon out, even on physical attackers.

252 Atk Life Orb (+Atk) Feraligatr Waterfall vs Durant: 56.2 - 66.66%
Aqua Jet: 28.29 - 33.72%
Durant fails to OHKO Feraligatr, and can put it into torrent range which could lead to an OHKO.

252 Atk Choice Band (+Atk) Druddigon Outrage vs Durant: 53.48 - 63.17%.
Durant's X-Scissor: 68.71 - 80.72%

These are just 2 examples of things that can severely damage Durant. Feraligatr can defeat Durant by itself, and Druddigon can lower its HP enough to get you a revenge kill. I don't need to go on about Durant being able to set up on special attackers because we already know how frail its SpDef is. My point is that it takes a lot from most physical attacks as well as special hits. Also, a +0 252 Atk LO neutral-nature Durant doesn't OHKO everything. Just to name a few that can hit hard back: 4 HP / 0 Def Omastar (X-Scissor: 65.95 - 77.65%) and 52 HP / 252 Def Lanturn (X-Scissor: 61.13 - 72.27%). This gives Durant limited chances to set up. This brings me to my next point; does it even need to set up?

2. The answer is: no. Most of the time, Durant does not need a Hone Claws boost in order to succeed. Here are some Pokemon that a +0 252 Atk LO neutral-nature Durant can outspeed AND OHKO.

Charizard
Claydol
Crawdaunt
Electivire
Entei
Gallade
Galvantula
Hitmonchan
Hitmonlee
Honchkrow
Ludicolo
Manectric
Medicham
Moltres
Roselia
Rotom-C
Sawsbuck
Scyther
Sigilyph
Slowking
Typhlosion

And some others but usually they will have the advantage on Durant (+1 Lilligant, Sharpedo, etc.)


I'm too lazy to check the rest of the Pokemon in the tier because I'm pretty confident that an unboosted Durant 2HKOs them (besides the 3 main counters and Klinklang). A +1 ant will get you even more KOs.

Anyways I was writing this when I was tired/sick (again) so forgive me if some stuff made no sense lol. I'll just sum up the reasons from both arguements:

I bolded what I think are the most important arguements.

Ban:
  • Great Steel typing with base 109 Atk, 112 Def, and 109 Speed. Access to Hone Claws.

  • 3 main counters do not have reliable recovery, thus they are easy to play around.


    [*] "High immediate damage output." It's a huge powerhouse, OHKOing half of the Pokemon in RU at +1 and even doing tons of damage without a boost. It can 2HKOs most of the tier without a boost.

Do Not Ban:

  • [*]Horrible HP and Special Defense. It cannot directly switch into most attacks. Any special attacker that is faster or is wielding a Choice Scarf can KO it. Life Orb recoil also makes Durant easier to beat.

  • Steelix, Poliwrath, and Magneton are very solid counters at full HP.

  • Durant has a lot of checks including faster special attackers and things that can take a hit (Aggron, Omastar, etc.).
 
Am I the only one who find it funny that some people who thinks krow is not broken, thinks that Durant is. They have their different roles, but very simular checks. Both have a very easy time getting a boost or even sweeping unprepared teams, but sadly they both has coveredge issues. Yes, Krow has one more counter (a pretty worthless pokemon in the metagame) , but it cannot be revenged by scarfers or faster pokemon unlike Durant which is actually a huge factor.

How can this thing be more broken than Honchkrow?
 
Not to mention that without an accuracy boost, those OHKOs only have a 80% chance of happening thanks to Hustle, and slightly less in the case of Rock Slide.
 
I didn't factor hax into my posts because it is an unreliable argument. What if it does hit all of its moves? GG. You can't always depend on misses to beat Durant just like you can't rely on SpDef Jirachi's flinch rate to beat CM Reuniclus.
 
I'm not saying that you should depend on misses to beat Durant, I'm just simply stating a fact that Hustle causes 80% accuracy.
 

Windsong

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Ok, people have been telling me to post here for quite some time, so I figure that I may as well at this point!

Anyhow, first and foremost, a lot of you guys are missing one key Durant set, the one that I used practically every time I played Durant in previous rounds and early in this round, in fact (I topped out pretty early in the round and wasn't too concerned with making council or anything, so didn't ladder much past early 1300ish at that point, but when I played using offense, I used this set).

Durant@Choice Band
Adamant | Hustle
252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

- Iron Head
- X-Scissor
- Rock Slide
- Baton Pass

Immediately when posting this, I'd like to address the issues that people may be seeing right off the bat from it, most notably the Adamant Nature, and use of Baton Pass without any moves to actually pass (and on a Choice set, for that matter!). I'd also like to look at the lists of Durant counters mentioned so far, eliminating basically everything but Steelix, Gligar, Qwilfish, and Magneton.

First and foremost, let's look at the fact that I was using an Adamant nature. Most of you are probably thinking something along the lines of "what the hell", but let's look at the usage stats, or the RU tier list, and take a look at which Pokemon Durant outspeeds when using a Jolly nature versus when using an Adamant nature.

Charizard - usually Choice scarfed, and only ran on sun, anyways, where Durant really has no place really doing any damage regardless, with the possible exception of eliminating the setters early in the game. Pretty much a non issue.
Entei - you lose to offensive CM sets, but those are rare enough that it's not a major problem, to be honest. Thanks to the nature cap when using Flare Blitz, you're still going to outspeed the majority of the Entei that you come across.
Galvantula - Galvantula's bad. Aside from that, it won't be switching into Durant anyways, and takes a truckload from even resisted hits. I guess you can't revenge it anymore, but it's just not really that important.
Manectric - pretty much always scarfed, so it'll outspeed Jolly Durant regardless.
Scyther - lol, it's actually better that it outspeeds you, so it gets to U-Turn out before you attack and instead of killing the thing that can't touch you, you're instead dealing a crapload of damage to your opponent's best Durant answer. A definite plus.
Typhlosion - usually scarfed, so most of the time it's outspeeding Jolly Durant regardless. Also Typhlosion just isn't that good in a metagame with so many Fire-types that are simply more powerful, especially when Typhlosion's only real strong attack is limited more and more every switch-in to rocks.

Anyways, looking at this list, there's nothing really important. The only real downside of losing out on those extra few points of speed is that you can't outrun Galvantula and opposing Durant anymore, and there are a few random NU mons like offensive Cryogonal that are rare enough not to really matter at all. No big deal. On the other hand, let's look at some of the damage calculations from Adamant Durant versus a variety of other threats.

Adamant Choice Band Durant is doing 39.82% - 47.01% to max/max Impish Gligar. With Rocks alone, that's KOing 40% of the time. With any residual damage at all, the KO chances are huge, and boosted further by the chance of a flinch. Of course, there's the chance of a badly timed miss, but you're still capable of 2HKOing one of the best Gligar checks out there easily.

You're also capable of easily 3HKOing 252 HP / 112 Defense Qwilfish easily with Iron Head. After Intimidate. Yeah, that's a resisted move, against one of its best counters, after an Attack drop. Jesus that's just absurd, tbh. Technically it's likely that one of the Iron Heads is going to miss, but what's Qwilfish going to do back? Waterfall for 30%? Spike a layer? Lol the worst thing it could do is TWave you and that's still okay, because you've taken out their key physical defensive pivot and spiker.

Honestly, those two counters are the main two worth mentioning, in my opinion, simply because, unlike Gligar and Qwilfish, which can fit into pretty much any type of team, Durant's other two best counters - Magneton and Steelix - are simply not as splashable. Steelix flat out doesn't fit well into any fast paced offensive team, as it detracts from the tempo of the games too much, while Magneton doesn't particularly have any place on teams that don't need specific Steel-types removed. Being forced to run either of those two mons in order to handle Durant well is just ridiculous, as it's significantly limiting to certain playstyles, while forcing others to run mons which simply have no place on the team. Overall, this, in my opinion simply makes it unhealthy for the metagame, regardless of whether or not it is directly 'broken'.

Onto the 'fast special attacker scarfers beat it' argument. The funny thing is, in order to beat Durant, you need to get that scarfer in, which means that something's basically going to die. Or, if something doesn't die, and you attempt to directly switch in that scarfer, especially if it's something like Magneton, Durant can just dry pass out, allowing the Durant user to set the pace of the match in their favor, gaining significant momentum, which is a huge benefit, especially if using one of the more offensively oriented teams that CB Durant is commonly found on.

Anyways, overall, these facts together just have me feeling that although Durant has a few solid checks and counters (emphasis on few), it adds an unhealthy element to the metagame, and therefor is worthy of ban.

edit: sorry that was super tl;dr lol, basically the gist of it is that i find durant p broke
 
Ok, people have been telling me to post here for quite some time, so I figure that I may as well at this point!

Anyhow, first and foremost, a lot of you guys are missing one key Durant set, the one that I used practically every time I played Durant in previous rounds and early in this round, in fact (I topped out pretty early in the round and wasn't too concerned with making council or anything, so didn't ladder much past early 1300ish at that point, but when I played using offense, I used this set).

Durant@Choice Band
Adamant | Hustle
252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

- Iron Head
- X-Scissor
- Rock Slide
- Baton Pass

I'd ask "What? No Hone Claws?" until I saw the Choice Band item next to your Durant.

Immediately when posting this, I'd like to address the issues that people may be seeing right off the bat from it, most notably the Adamant Nature, and use of Baton Pass without any moves to actually pass (and on a Choice set, for that matter!). I'd also like to look at the lists of Durant counters mentioned so far, eliminating basically everything but Steelix, Gligar, Qwilfish, and Magneton.

First and foremost, let's look at the fact that I was using an Adamant nature. Most of you are probably thinking something along the lines of "what the hell", but let's look at the usage stats, or the RU tier list, and take a look at which Pokemon Durant outspeeds when using a Jolly nature versus when using an Adamant nature.


Charizard - usually Choice scarfed, and only ran on sun, anyways, where Durant really has no place really doing any damage regardless, with the possible exception of eliminating the setters early in the game. Pretty much a non issue. Entei - you lose to offensive CM sets, but those are rare enough that it's not a major problem, to be honest. Thanks to the nature cap when using Flare Blitz, you're still going to outspeed the majority of the Entei that you come across.
Galvantula - Galvantula's bad. Aside from that, it won't be switching into Durant anyways, and takes a truckload from even resisted hits. I guess you can't revenge it anymore, but it's just not really that important.

Galvantula is not bad.

You would be surprised how many teams, including my own, are hilariously weak to its STAB attacks as well as its coverage moves. CompoundEyes Thunder attacks are not to be taken so lightly, especially not when the recipient of those attacks has a heinously low Sp.Def
.

Manectric - pretty much always scarfed, so it'll outspeed Jolly Durant regardless.
Scyther - lol, it's actually better that it outspeeds you, so it gets to U-Turn out before you attack and instead of killing the thing that can't touch you, you're instead dealing a crapload of damage to your opponent's best Durant answer. A definite plus.

...why would Scyther U-turn on a Durant? That would do virtually nothing except give Life Orb recoil to the Scyther.

Typhlosion - usually scarfed, so most of the time it's outspeeding Jolly Durant regardless. Also Typhlosion just isn't that good in a metagame with so many Fire-types that are simply more powerful, especially when Typhlosion's only real strong attack is limited more and more every switch-in to rocks.

I can concur that many of these Pokemon are usually Scarfed and thus outspeed Jolly Durant, making Adamant Durant more appealing.

Anyways, looking at this list, there's nothing really important.

I dunno, I'd be careful with Galvantula and Scyther if I were you...

The only real downside of losing out on those extra few points of speed is that you can't outrun Galvantula and opposing Durant anymore, and there are a few random NU mons like offensive Cryogonal that are rare enough not to really matter at all. No big deal. On the other hand, let's look at some of the damage calculations from Adamant Durant versus a variety of other threats.

Adamant Choice Band Durant is doing 39.82% - 47.01% to max/max Impish Gligar. With Rocks alone, that's KOing 40% of the time. With any residual damage at all, the KO chances are huge, and boosted further by the chance of a flinch. Of course, there's the chance of a badly timed miss, but you're still capable of 2HKOing one of the best Gligar checks out there easily.

You're also capable of easily 3HKOing 252 HP / 112 Defense Qwilfish easily with Iron Head. After Intimidate. Yeah, that's a resisted move, against one of its best counters, after an Attack drop. Jesus that's just absurd, tbh. Technically it's likely that one of the Iron Heads is going to miss, but what's Qwilfish going to do back? Waterfall for 30%? Spike a layer? Lol the worst thing it could do is TWave you and that's still okay, because you've taken out their key physical defensive pivot and spiker.

Honestly, those two counters are the main two worth mentioning, in my opinion, simply because, unlike Gligar and Qwilfish, which can fit into pretty much any type of team, Durant's other two best counters - Magneton and Steelix - are simply not as splashable. Steelix flat out doesn't fit well into any fast paced offensive team, as it detracts from the tempo of the games too much, while Magneton doesn't particularly have any place on teams that don't need specific Steel-types removed. Being forced to run either of those two mons in order to handle Durant well is just ridiculous, as it's significantly limiting to certain playstyles, while forcing others to run mons which simply have no place on the team. Overall, this, in my opinion simply makes it unhealthy for the metagame, regardless of whether or not it is directly 'broken'.

I've always seen Magneton as a "counterpick" Pokemon anyway; his fully-evolved form, Magnezone, is not so different in this aspect. I hate SkarmBliss, so I pick Magnezone to counter it hard.

Onto the 'fast special attacker scarfers beat it' argument. The funny thing is, in order to beat Durant, you need to get that scarfer in, which means that something's basically going to die. Or, if something doesn't die, and you attempt to directly switch in that scarfer, especially if it's something like Magneton, Durant can just dry pass out, allowing the Durant user to set the pace of the match in their favor, gaining significant momentum, which is a huge benefit, especially if using one of the more offensively oriented teams that CB Durant is commonly found on.

Anyways, overall, these facts together just have me feeling that although Durant has a few solid checks and counters (emphasis on few), it adds an unhealthy element to the metagame, and therefor is worthy of ban.

edit: sorry that was super tl;dr lol, basically the gist of it is that i find durant p broke

Your argument is actually very solid and worth the read. I just had to nitpick a few things because of my first impression regarding the matter.
I agree with this whole argument and can concur that I too believe Durant deserves a ban, especially when taking all the other arguments I read on this thread into account.

I'd cite an example of a previous Poke who was counterable and yet got banned anyway, but that would be delving off into a tangent.
 
My 2 cents here: first off, I do think that the fact that hustle gives durant stone edge level accuracy should really be considered. He relies on hone claws for the LO set, and the choice band set has no way to ameliorate the poor accuracy. When times come where it needs to hit, especially against a special attacker, its shaky accuracy makes or breaks it. I have been on the good and bad side of this many times.
As per counters, it is susceptible to phazing on the hone claws set, and I could see whimsicott encore ruining its fun too. Hazard layers ruin its ability to sweep on the choice band set, and thunder wave users can also ruin its day.
Some other, not quite "hard" counters include evo golbat and physical lanturn. Golbat loves a choice locked x-scissor and any non boosted move bar rock slide. It can then proceed to super fang for a free 50 percent damage, making its list of revenge killers more expansive.
Lanturn takes no super effective damage from durant (unless it carries dig) and has a great chance to burn it with scald or t-wave it.

To conclude, while durant's "true " counters are countable on one hand, the many ways it can be worked around and exploited are numerous. No ban for durant.
 

Oglemi

Borf
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Thanks for the heated discussion here as well; with a 7-2 vote, Durant was deemed broken, and will be removed from the RU tier.
 
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