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Discussion in 'OM Archive' started by Dusk209, Oct 19, 2012.
I can't wait to see what they give Lucario, Weavile, and the others...
I'm not sure if this has been addressed or is even actually the case, but doesn't the removal of freezing have the somewhat negative side effect of Ice Beam/Blizzard/etc not being boosted by Sheer Force?
They've been given the ability to flinch now so that's not a problem.
Good point. I'd also vouch for Sheer Cold becoming a 55 Acc freeze move, and Freeze as a status to come back on everything it normally would, function the same, except a frozen Pokemon is essentially +6/+6 in defenses, can last at max for 3 turns, and implement more "defrost self" moves.
Normal: Focus Energy, Heal Bell, Hyper Beam
Fire: Flame Wheel, Overheat, Sacred Fire
Water: Aqua Ring, Scald, Shell Smash
Electric: Charge, Discharge, Volt Tackle
Grass: Aromatherapy, Needle Arm, Solarbeam
Ice: Haze, Icicle Drop, Icicle Spear
Fighting: Brick Break, Detect, Focus Punch
Poison: Acid Armor, Sludge, Smokescreen
Ground: Bulldoze, Drill Run, Mud Bomb
Flying: Aerial Ace, Drill Peck, Sky Attack
Psychic: Heal Pulse, Psycho Shift, Rest
Bug: Megahorn, Steamroller, Tail Glow
Rock: Rock Wrecker, Rollout, Stone Edge
Ghost: Astonish, Ominous Wind, Spite
Dragon: Dragon Rage, Dual Chop, Outrage
Dark: Dark Pulse, Foul Play, Sucker Punch
Steel: Autotomize, Gear Shift, Meteor Mash
Any suggestions/replacements/hate mail?
To be honest. I think you nerfed it a bit TOO much, I'd much rather have it as it is, Not in at all.
I don't believe Dusk wants freeze back and I can see why. Most of the proposed changes basically involve turning into another source of sleep and, given that it only comes up through hax, that kinda goes against all the other changes.
For what it's worth, I would propose making Freeze work like: Halves SpA, 25% chance to lose turn because of shivering or whatever. This would be quite a big meta change, most likely, so I understand why it wouldn't happen.
The big things with freeze are A) it's basically the same thing as sleep, but added to moves that damage, hence making it very game-changing (I should tell you, my Jellicent beat a Blissey through freeze in OU once), and B) it is very unpredictable, meaning that sometimes the pokemon unfreeze instantly, and sometimes (like in the Blissey case) the pokemon is frozen for 5 or more consecutive turns. Even more notable is the lack of a "Freeze Clause", meaning unlike sleep, you cannot be immune to freeze after one pokemon gets frozen (this may seem insignificant, but I have seen unlucky cases when one pokemon is frozen, switches, and the switch-in is frozen the following turn). To honestly revive freeze w/o making it so dynamic, we would probably have to introduce it as a pure status move, like sleep, and nerf its effects, something I am well convinced we won't and shouldn't do. I will agree with Magolor that we should leave it as is, though on another note, Sheer Force does have an issue w/ the likes of Thunderbolt and Flamethrower, etc, which have their effects removed as well. And for those who REALLY like freeze, look up Pokemon Mystery Dungeon, in it, the effects of freeze are much cooler, both figuratively and literally.
As for Sheer Cold, the accuracy alone makes it very unreliable, outclassed by Sleep Powder, Dark Void, etc, and I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that even if we changed it, we would still have to remove it from OHKO Clause, which is something we cannot do. We would also have to create a Freeze Clause, as previously mentioned.
Speaking of Ice and Freezing, between this and GenNext I'm not totally sure I understand this idea behind "buffing Kyurem to Ubers", especially as attempts are made to bring certain others back down. You're nerfing Excadrill, Genesect, and Thundurus to drag them back down to OU, but Kyurem needs to be improved so that you can ban it? I'm not really understanding the motivation here.
In DuskMod, we are attempting to make the metagame more balanced. We want to make Kyurem Uber to move it up to the tier that it was designed (technically) to be in. The same goes for Kyurem-B, Regigigas, and Deoxys-D. At the same time, we are nerfing pokemon like Excadrill, Thundurus, and Blaziken who were designed to be more along the lines of OU (Genesect is a bit iffy though, having a 600BST, which is technically OU via pseudo-legendary, but is definitely arguable). Darkrai I personally think should remain Ubers, but is also arguable, having a 600BST. In simple terms, we want to make Uber-level (BST wise) pokemon Uber and OU-level pokemon OU.
(Deoxys-D is also 600 BST but w/e)
Well, is Ubers actually be supported in some capacity? Otherwise it just kinda feels like those Pokemon are getting kicked out for... having over 600 BST? This feels odd to me, because you're basically saying "This Pokemon is balanced (hell, under powered in Kyurem-N's case, and of course, unusable in Regigigas'), but its stats suggest it shouldn't be balanced. So we're going to buff it, and then ban it for being too strong, as it should be!" While part of me gets it, part of me doesn't understand what's gained. For a mod trying to do things for competitive reasons (specifically focused on OU), it feels sort of odd to be saying you're sending it where it was "designed" to be.
tl;dr: Buffing something to ubers doesn't make a lot of sense when Ubers isn't likely to be played much (since OU has all the fancy changes). It feels like you're just getting rid of these Pokemon, not "sending them where they were designed to be."
tl;dr mk II: A pokemon shouldn't be banned for its BST.
Also, very interested to see what happens to Slaking.
Weavile just needs Technician :3
You know these posts actually got me thinking;
What if you just make Freeze status basicly the same Sleep.
Turn Sheer Cold into Freeze varitation of Spore and the only move to cause Freeze.
Tada, ice pokemons became just a little bit more attractive.
And talking about ice, any plans on ice as a type itself getting some buffings? Cause the type itself is pretty weak defensive wise with only 1 resistance and 4 weaknesses making many ice mons really unattractive. It really could do with something to give it a little 'unf' when you think about it balance wise.
Lol, Slaking is not going to be an easy task for DuskMod. Also, thanks for mentioning Dexoys-D, forgot that one, but in its case, it's being buffed mostly because all of its other forms are Uber. Also, following OU, we will be changing Ubers around some, but that will not be for a while, so think of it more as delaying their changes as opposed to getting rid of them. I'll also add Regigigas is not entirely unusable, but definitely cursed by a horrible ability. The BST is also not the way we decide which tier they go into, as we really just have to agree on what should go where in terms of tiers.
Yeah, gl with the freeze status thing, and I have already mentioned several reasons why we would NOT do that.
On the other hand, we have been working on fixing up the worse typings like Poison, thanks for mentioning Ice, too. Also, ice pokemon have a lot more use in this metagame, especially Cryogonal, who arguably gets the #1 spot for Hyper Offense Support.
Well, if DuskMod Ubers happens, Uber Kyurem and Regigigas would certainly be cool.
Also Ice and Poison have always been good for opposite reasons. Where Ice is an awful defensive typing, it's always been one of the best offensive typings (Kills dragons! etc.), and poison has always been a very good defensive typing (resist fighting is great; bug and grass aren't bad either, and of course immunity to the poison status).
But yeah, making Ice not such a liability would be nice (And would, in fact, do a lot towards making Kyurem Uber.)
As a voice on the server and someone who actualy worked on it some I can say one thing: There will only be DM OU and DM Ubers.DM ubers is planned to be put up a while after DM OU is 100% done/released,And I gotta say Ubers is basicly gonna be OP as fuck,And the reason I know this is because Bulba Rex,Smogoon,Dusk and I were the ones who worked on the pirate pad for it,the planning for DM Ubers is done but it will not be up until a long time.
Technically this is not true. The pad that said people worked on is a rough draft and list of ideas. It does not mean that we WILL use those changes, and I sincerely hope we do not, jsyk.
Please tell me Garchomp won't get DD though. It's OP enough without it.
Considering it is supposed to be OU in DuskMod, I doubt it will.
So I've been playing for a few days, and I must say, while there are a select few pokemon that are definitely the best, there are a lot more viable pokemon in this metagame than in standard OU. Everyone I've faced has had significantly different teams with different purposes, and because of this I'm constantly learning new pieces of information that will eventually be standard. My favorite part about this metagame, however, is the set diversity. No matter what pokemon your facing, even its a bog standard pokemon like Chandy, your never sure what set they're running. Sure, if its Chandy, its probably scarfed, or if its Bisharp, its probably SubSD with Moxie, but everything has such a wide variety of options that every battle is interesting, even if its just a different coverage move, like Brick Break on Bisharp for example. The amount of discovery left to be done is promising for a broad and exciting future in this metagame.
Although this aspect of it makes the metagame a little daunting at first for newer players like myself, I cant see this discovery phase ending anytime soon. There are still 3 more generations of pokemon left, and until every pokemon is edited to OU level power, the full extent of discovery cant even begin. However, this makes the metagame look like it has an amazing future in store, as it will be new and fresh for a LONG time.
You can now play DuskMod doubles on the server.
You can bring 6 pokemon to each battle, unlike VGC's 4. There is no item clause. Dark Void does not spread.
For all teambuilders who want to know whom they outspeed, here are the speed tiers. It should include most of the more common Pokémon.
That's amazing, no Dark Void Smeargles to deal with now. On another note, the biggest change here (other than all DuskMod changes) is the fact that the pure 100 legendaries (Mew, Victini, etc.) are now usable.
Victini is especially useful as it gets access to both Searing Shot and Glaciate, making it a valuable asset to any Doubles team. Among that, it also benefits from access to Helping Hand, and its ability, Victory Star, which is helpful giving not so accurate moves, such as Blizzard, a hand. It is also a wonderful abuser of Gravity as well as a supporter, for any of you who enjoy that sort of strategy in Doubles.
Mew is well, Mew. It gets access to so many moves, so it is obviously a great asset. I'd probably run something along the lines of this:
Mew @ Ground Gem (Rock/Normal Gem could also work)
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature/Adamant Nature
It could also run a special set with moves like Blizzard, Sludge Wave, and more. It'll probably do best with support sets though, as it gets access to Gravity, Trick Room, and Tailwind, I believe that Xatu is the only other who gets all three.
I've played a few doubles matches, and rain teams are by far the most dominant thing I've seen. Doubles matches are short enough as it is, and between Politoed and Zapdos rain can stay up long enough to destroy the other team. There are so many good rain abusers as well, such as Zapdos, Kabutops, Kingdra, and Butterfree with Hurricane and Thunder. They can deal an immense amount of damage quickly, and if you're playing doubles, be prepared for these teams.