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Dusknoir (Waiting reservation approval) (Locked)

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by Togekissfan, Dec 23, 2010.

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  1. Togekissfan

    Togekissfan

    Joined:
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    Status: Offering to someone who has more competitive battling knowledge.

    [​IMG]

    [Overview]
    <p>Has beastly defenses and a good Attack stat, but really could use a good STAB move. The best it has to a physical move is Earthquake. Even so, it still has a multitute of physical attacks to choose from, such as the three elemental punches, Earthquake, Rock Slide, Sucker Punch, and a couple of new moves to play with, like Level Ground and Telekinesis.</p>

    <p>Dusknoir was a great tank who also had the offensive capabilities to fight back with its multitude of attacks. With the introduction of Evolution Stone, Dusknoir now faces a tougher competition with it's pre-evolution, Dusclops. Even so, the respectable 100 Base Attack still puts Dusknoir on the top of his game, and will prove to still be an impressive tank for this new generation.</p>

    <p>Dusknoir still faces tough competition with Spiritomb as an anti-Rapid Spinner, but with the type changes for Rotom-H and Rotom-A, there's not much to challenge Dusknoir; and yet there may be more competition to come.</p>

    [Set]
    Name: Defensive Tanker
    1) Will-O-Wisp
    2) Pain Split/Shadow Sneak
    3) Earthquake/Fire Punch
    4) Ice Punch/Thunderpunch
    Item: Leftovers
    Nature: Impish
    Ability: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/4 SpD

    [Set Comments]:

    [Additional Comments]
    <p>Pain Split lets Dusknoir recover while damaging the opponent at the same time, and also helps negate Focus Sashes. With thanks to Bogmire, here is an example on how this EV spread makes Dusknoir's bulkiness really shine:</p>
    252 hp/252 Def/4 SpD
    294*405=119070
    294*306=89964
    (Max Atk) Doryuzuu +2 EQ vs Dusknoir: (405*2) Atk vs 405 Def & 294 HP (150 Base Power): 219.3 - 258 (74.6%-87.7%)
    (Max SpA) Scarf Shandera Shadow Ball vs Dusknoir: 427 Sp. Atk vs 306 Sp. Def & 294 HP (120 Base Power): 244.2 - 287.3 (83.06% -97.72%)
    Pain Split lets Dusknoir recover while damaging the opponent at the same time, and also breaks Focus Sashes.

    [Set]
    Name: SubPunch
    1) Substitute
    2) Focus Punch
    3) Sucker Punch/Payback
    4) Fire Punch/Ice Punch
    Item:Leftovers
    Nature: Adamant/Brave
    Ability: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP/252 Atk/4 SpD

    [Set Comments]

    <p>This set abuses the type coverage it has to battle against its own counters. For example, Focus Punch and Fire Punch both hit Tyranitar and Heracross, respectively. Sucker Punch is an excellent priority move, and KOs the likes of Azelf and Mismagius. Thanks to substitute, you can ease on prediction and get a free hit, as well as prevent Mismagius from burning Dusknoir via Will-O-Wisp. Fire Punch is there for type coverage against pokemon such as Scizor, and is also a good move to use against Celebi, though you may miss the OHKO that Payback usually has. Ice Punch is mainly to counter Dragon types and Gliscor.</p>

    [Additional Comments]
    <p>Shadow Sneak is another priority move that gains STAB. Unfortunately, Sucker Punch is usually a better choice for priority, and also hits Normal-types. If you are worried about Gyarados, you can opt for Thunderpunch as your fourth move, which still 2HKOs most flying types, but leaves you vulnerable to Gliscor.</p>

    [Set]
    Name: Gravity
    1) Gravity
    2) Dynamicpunch/Earthquake
    3) Will-O-Wisp
    4) Pain Split/Shadow Punch
    Item: Leftovers
    Nature: Relaxed/Brave
    Ability: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/4 SpD

    [Set Comments]

    <p>Gravity is the niche for this set, as it increases Dynamicpunch's accuracy to 82%, and Will-O-Wisp gets a 100% accuracy. Dynamicpunch gives Dusknoir a sure 2HKO against 252 HP/252 Def Blissey, Tyranitar, and a KO against Weavile, some of Dusknoir's counters.</p>

    [Additional Comments]
    <p>There are many teammates that pairs up well under Gravity's conditions. Nasty Plot Infernape appreciates having two powerful moves with 100% accuracy.

    • (Still adding information, please check back later)
    [Set]
    Name: Trick Room
    Trick Room
    Will-O-Wisp
    Pain Split/Shadow Punch
    Earthquake/Thunderpunch

    [Set Comments]

    [Additional Comments]

    [Other Options]
    <p>For novelty play, you can use Level Ground, with is basically a weaker EQ that lowers Speed. Dusknoir can always run Telekineis, which is like using Mind Reader for 3 turns for your team, at the cost of a Ground-immunity for your opponent for 3 turns. Dusknoir can also equip itself with an Iron Ball and use Fling for, but this is a one-time 130 Base Power Dark-type attack that's never usually recommended. </p>

    <p>Here's a very unique moveset which Dusknoir could utilitize, but it requires a lot of strategy: (Curse, Pain Split, Will-O-Wisp, Shadow Punch/Earthquake; Impish nature; EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/4 SpD)

    <p>Return is technically the most powerful move that Dusknoir utilizes based on Base Power. (Mega Kick is omitted since it's a III generation tutor move for Dusclops) Foresight is a gimmick move that erases Normal and Fighting immunities from Ghost-types such as Gengar and Burungeru.</p>

    <p>Dusknoir has Grudge to deplete all PP of the finishing move.</p>

    [Counters] N/A at this time. Please check back later.
  2. A Man In Black

    A Man In Black

    Joined:
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    The colors are horribly ugly and (hopefully) won't be on the final analysis on the site.

    Level Ground is unlikely to be useful on him; there's basically nothing you'd want to hit with LG instead of EQ.

    Telekinesis is useless in singles: it's a three-turn Lock On that not only doesn't let you hit through immunities, but grants an extra one. Are you planning to use Zap Cannon or something?

    Rotom-A is no competition at all; while they are excellent Pokemon, they are no longer ghosts and thus fill different roles now.

    The elephant in the room is evo stone Dusclops; what does Dusknoir offer that its pre-evo doesn't? Also mention why you'd want to use Dusclops over Desukaan; probably shouldn't be a hard case to make, because Desu's movepool is abysmal.

    The first set is a doubles set and not a very good one. It's a near-max attack set with only Earthquake.

    Houndoom is not going to be OU and I'd be very surprised if Wargle or Furrijio made it to OU, either.

    Houndoom isn't much of a partner because your first set is going to attract bulky special attackers, particularly NP/CMers of all sorts, and your set can't really do anything about them except Pain Split them once. Houndoom can't do anything about setup attackers either.

    Decimate doesn't mean what you think it does.

    Shadow Punch is a horrible move that should pretty much never be used. Payback is almost always a better choice on such a slow Pokemon.

    Don't give sets cutesy-pie names.

    Gravity-Dynamicpunch isn't as accurate as you think, and Foresight is useless when you could just run an attack to hit ghosts (plus it wastes your Gravity turns, which are few). Also this set is a lot of work to go to in order to hit people with Dynamicpunches when Machamp does it better in every way.

    Dusknoir is great at subpunching, since it can take a hit, drop the sub, and focus punch away. Trick Room ruins that.

    Ulgamoth isn't going to switch into a bulky physical attacker ever and Moltres is almost certainly UU again this gen, so Rock Slide is worthless.

    Dusknoir gets Sucker Punch and Payback and none of these sets have them.

    There's no discussion of what moves you'd want to handle common Rapid Spinners.

    I really want to be encouraging but it's hard.
  3. Xav

    Xav

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2009
    Messages:
    785
    Just use the standard foramt for each set, seen below.

    [SET]
    name: Choice Band
    move 1: Fire Punch
    move 2: Ice Punch
    move 3: ThunderPunch
    move 4: Earthquake/Shadow Punch/Trick
    ability: Pressure
    item: Choice Band
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 SpD

    Also don't use colours, they are unnecessary and annoying, especially yellow.
  4. Togekissfan

    Togekissfan

    Joined:
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    Well I appreciate the feedback, but I am still conducting research on who will and who won't be in the OU tier. The "cutesy pet names" are placeholders that are for some humor at the moment. I still have to put all possible moves for Dusknoir, even though they might suck. But thank you for mentioning Payback, I can't believe I forgot about it. It is in all seriousness an awesome move. And the colors; actually I have no idea why I did that. But I still have a long way to go b4 this analysis is submitted. And if you can, PM me a list of all the OU tier pokémon. Thanks a bunch. And remember, this is not my final product. It will be more impressive than it is right now. (Don't worry if the article is cut off. This just means it will have a major formatting change)
  5. NightShadow

    NightShadow

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    You do not list all possible moves in the actual sets. CB?! you mention it in Optional changes. and there are no tiers yet in 5th gen, apart from ubers.
  6. Noble Cactus

    Noble Cactus

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    I agree with A Man in Black; Dusclops gives older brother Noir serious competition. Your analysis should focus on what separates the two and convince readers that Noir is viable. Otherwise, you're wasting the reader's time when they could be reading a Clops analysis if they want a wall. Mention that Noir gets item freedom (notably Leftovers), higher attack to hit back whatever he's walling... and that's all I can think of. A shame, really, because I like the fat, massive-handed, radio broadcast cyclops.
  7. Togekissfan

    Togekissfan

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    Oy jeez. Tomorrow, I will revise my article. It will just take more feedback and research. Be warned as I will create a long Other Options list. Happy Holidays! Thanks for sticking with this.
  8. Omicron

    Omicron
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

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    If you want more feedback, you are going to need more substance. Sorry to be so frank, but it's the truth. I would recommend you to look over other analysis threads that have already been written up. They are great examples of what an analysis should look like.
  9. GtM

    GtM

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    Really? With STAB Shadow Punch has 90 BP all of the time, whilst Payback will have between 50 and 100 BP. And it's not always going to be the 100 BP, you're going to have a serious problem against Rankurusu, and your "STAB" attack is now also resisted by the Fighting types that you wall. Besides, both are outclassed by Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch most of the time.
  10. Shnoogle

    Shnoogle

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    Every single analysis needs to be in the same format. So, read what the correct format is!
    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82185
    There is Jibaku's excellent Zekrom analysis with the proper format. Copy the format and don't make up your own... It's just asking for trouble
  11. Calm Pokemaster

    Calm Pokemaster
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
    Moderator

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    Also remember to reserve Pokemon properly, and do a search of the OU analyses forum to see if the Pokemon you wish to reserve haven't been already reserved. Please don't re-write analyses already written by other people, and call it practice. Lurking a bit more, and reading some well written analyses by other people, would be a good idea tbh.

    That said, I appreciate your enthusiasm in wanting to write analyses. Practice writing them in Text / Word documents, ask other people's opinion on your practice write-ups via Private Messaging. I sincerely hope such mishaps don't occur in the future, since there is quite some confusion already.

    Good luck.
  12. CTNC

    CTNC

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    Tokekissfan, INSAULT EDITED OUT

    First of all, you need to get it reserved before you make a thread for it. (Ninja'd on that part) Second, I've seen you other movesets. They SUCK. Third of all, you didn't menchion that Dusknoir is outclassed by Evostone Dusclops IF you dont need offense power...

    FYI Shadow Punch can be more useful than Payback. There are slower pokemon who may carry Payback and Payback is only Power 50 if the opponet switches. Shadow Punch is Power 90 with Stab and can beat inconsistant's evasiveness boost.

    At below: Gen 5 Change to move causes Payback to be power 50 if the opponet switches. Also, I called Tokekiss fan an Idiot because I was anoyed about his (or her) bad movesets and clear lack of battling experience... I admit it was however uncalled for. (and always will be with anyone who didn't fail an IQ test)
  13. GtM

    GtM

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    Actually, Payback does get the power increase if the opponent switches, according to Smogon. And I suppose it's worth noting that Bibarel is immune to Shadow Punch. Also, don't call people idiots.
  14. Fizz

    Fizz

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    Smogon does not have 5th-Gen move descriptions at the moment, and if I'm not mistaken, Payback was changed in 5th Gen to not double in power on the switch.
  15. Togekissfan

    Togekissfan

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    OK I am back. Sorry for the wait, so I am going to get started on revisions, starting with the Other Options category.
  16. Togekissfan

    Togekissfan

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    Wow. I said I would like feedbacks, but I will not appreciate morons. (WTF is an Insault?):pirate: This is sort of a new thing for me, so cope with it for now. Anyway, I am finished with the remodifications for now. Later on, I will put more info depending if Christmas is long or not.
    (Next Objective: Create a Trick Room and a Choice Band set.)

    Merr
    y Christmas! =D
  17. Bogmire

    Bogmire

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    Yeah this is pretty much unacceptable and I cannot believe nobody's mentioned it yet. HP should always be maxed on a pokemon with such low base hp like Dusknoir. To demonstrate how much better it takes hits with max hp

    your EV spread
    231*405=93555
    231*369=85239
    Doryuzuu +2 EQ vs Dusknoir: 738 Atk vs 405 Def & 231 HP (100 Base Power): 196 - 232 (84.85% - 100.43%)
    Scarf Shandera Shadow Ball vs Dusknoir: 389 Atk vs 369 Def & 231 HP (80 Base Power): 182 - 216 (78.79% - 93.51%)

    252 hp/252 def
    294*405=119070
    294*306=89964
    Doryuzuu +2 EQ vs Dusknoir: 738 Atk vs 405 Def & 294 HP (100 Base Power): 196 - 232 (66.67% - 78.91%)
    Scarf Shandera Shadow Ball vs Dusknoir: 389 Atk vs 306 Def & 294 HP (80 Base Power): 218 - 260 (74.15% - 88.44%)

    as you can see it is much bulkier physically and slightly more bulky specially. The increased healing with pain split isn't worth it the additional durability. Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch deserve mentions in Other Options as well, since Dusknoir is so slow and they both help with picking off weakened foes.
  18. Togekissfan

    Togekissfan

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    Bogmire, did you include STAB for SB and EQ?
  19. Togekissfan

    Togekissfan

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    If that's the correct way, then I'll change it to that correct formatting technique, but right now, I am organizing the article the best way I can. When everything else checks out, I'll see to it that the formatting is to "all you guys'" expectations. :nerd:
  20. Alan

    Alan

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    insult*
  21. Don Honchkrorleone

    Don Honchkrorleone

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    I think you are underestimating the Ghost-type offensively quite a bit. Dusknoir has two good moves that are Shadow Punch and Shadow Sneak. The former always damages for good and consistent damage at 90 (some pokémon make Dusknoir a set up bait, lowering the power of Payback), while Shadow Sneak always hits (Sucker Punch relies too much in luck). Shadow Punch or Shadow Sneak are also good for the SubPunching set, providing unresisted coverage alongside Focus Punch. And add Pain Split to this set. Substitute + Pain Split + Pressure is very annoying.

    Lie. Sucker Punch requires that the opponent attacks. Sucker Punch has also low PP.
  22. A Man In Black

    A Man In Black

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    People are estimating ghost STAB as nearly valueless because the Ghost STAB attacks are very weak. Emphasizing the weakness of the Dark-typed alternatives does not make the Ghost options look better; it merely shows how dire Dusknoir's options for doing damage without SE moves are.
  23. TEA_DEMON

    TEA_DEMON

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    Defensive tanker doesn't need such an unreliable priority move in Sucker Punch, as STAB Shadow Sneak is only slightly less powerful and is more reliable. Earthquake/Shadow Sneak is probably what you want in terms of offensive moves on the defensive set (maybe with Shadow Punch slashed with Shadow Sneak, I'm not sure); Will-o-Wisp and Pain Split round out the set.

    Also there should probably be a Trick Room supporting set, since Dusknoir is a pretty fucking good user of it. Trick Room/Pain Split/Will-o-Wisp/Earthquake was commonly used in 4th gen and Dusknoir hasn't got anything amazing to add to that set as far as I'm aware.

    And the bold needs to go.
  24. Togekissfan

    Togekissfan

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    I know I need to do a trick room and anti-rapid spin moveset, but I am still trying to see how good it does for pokemon in the 5th generation. Such as Musharna. =)
  25. (makeup)

    (makeup) kevin
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    I'm not sure if you exactly have grasped the expectations of Smogon at all. These movesets will be posted on-sight and this is pretty sub-par. To be honest, I doubt you've actually played with any of these due to the ineffectivity. If you actually tested them, you would probably notice. Sucker Punch is pretty weak with no attack investment and it's unreliable. You seem a littler newer to competitive battling, so maybe you can pass the analysis down to a more experienced writer/tester who is willing to put enough time and effort into this to make it the best possible. That's what I would do in your position at least.
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