Duskull (Analysis)'

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by Deck Knight, Sep 2, 2009.

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  1. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight prominent CAP users
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    The forgotten Levitating Ghost. Has a few neat tricks, and is a pretty good support pokemon/pivot.
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    [​IMG]
    http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/duskull

    Status: Complete. Could need more grammar overview.

    Added:
    Grammar edits.
    Rest and Confuse Ray mentioned in OO.
    Pain Split slash and paragraph in support set.

    [SET]
    name: Support
    move 1: Will-O-Wisp
    move 2: Shadow Sneak
    move 3: Ice Beam
    move 4: Disable / Pain Split / Trick Room
    item: Oran Berry
    ability: Levitate
    nature: Relaxed
    evs: 196 HP / 116 Atk / 36 Def / 36 SpA / 116 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Duskull plays entirely differently from its Levitating Ghost-type brethren. It has low Speed and high Defenses, and thus uses its three immunities to wall opponents entirely, not set up.</p>

    <p>Each attack on this set has its own purpose. Will-O-Wisp incapacitates physical attackers of all kinds. It can switch in on powerful Normal- and Ground-type attacks and threaten to cripple the attacker. Shadow Sneak provides Duskull a means to deal with the other Ghost-types. It 2HKO's Misdreavus and can OHKO Hasty Gastly. Duskull can usually survive an unboosted Misdreavus Shadow Ball, but is doomed against boosted ones. Ice Beam can OHKO 0/0 HP/SpD Gligar 100% of the time, and 156/0 HP/Def Gligar 80% of the time.</p>

    <p>The last slot depends on your team. One of the most common answers to Ghost-types is Pursuit Munchlax. Because Duskull can easily survive an unboosted Pursuit, it can Disable the move and switch out freely or attempt to burn with Will-O-Wisp next turn (in either order, really). Disable also works wonders against pokemon that use Sucker Punch to punish Ghost-types, and predicting it can prevent use of the move until the opponent switches out. Disable can miss as it only has 80% accuracy, but when it works it often provides an impasse for the would-be counter. Pain Split gives Duskull additional recovery when it is weakened. Provided Duskull can survive another attack from a healthy opposing Pokemon, it can drain their HP and tank a little longer. If you are using a Trick Room team, Duskull is one of the best pokemon to start it. It is naturally slow, has many chances to switch in, and is bulky enough to set it up more than once.</p>

    <p>Duskull is an excellent partner to any pokemon with Stealth Rock. Spinners are rare in Little Cup to begin with, but because a large number of Duskull's counters hate dealing with Stealth Rock, the ability to stop a spin and take several hits is an invaluable asset. Whether it is breaking a Sash, eating away 25% of HP, or just getting an opponent in KO range, Duskull appreciates life with Stealth Rock on the field. Anorith is notable for its good speed and high offensive prowess, it is especially effective at taking down similarly built Houndour who otherwise are the stuff of Duskull nightmares. Bringing a Houndour of your own can also help Duskull survive, since a Houndour mirror match is usually a draw. Ponyta can also work, warding off Houndour with strong physical attacks and immunity to Flamethrower. Munchlax is also a solid counter with its high Special Defense and Thick Fat.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Calm Mind
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Shadow Ball
    move 3: Hidden Power [Fighting]
    move 4: Shadow Sneak
    item: Oran Berry
    ability: Levitate
    nature: Sassy
    evs: 36 HP / 120 Def / 200 SA / 120 SpD
    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Calm Mind Duskull plays a bit differently than Calm Mind Misdreavus. Calm Mind primarily boost its special defense, letting it tank special attacks and get opponents into the KO range of Shadow Sneak. After a Calm Mind Duskull's Special Defense jumps to an impressive 27, and its special attack is at a fairly threatening 18. Combined with its notable defensive ability it can tank through hits and pose an offensive threat with the unresisted Ghost/Fighting combination. It also has some room to play around Sucker Punch, being able to Calm Mind again, and does not fear Pursuit anywhere near as much as Misdreavus or Gastly.</p>

    <p>The fourth slot is a priority move. It is necessary for Duskull to have priority here so it can remain healthy after getting HP back with Oran Berry. When you come in you will want to Calm Mind, tank through a hit, have Oran activate, and finish with Shadow Sneak to remain healthy and repeat the process for a second KO. The inability to hit Normal-types is a nuisance, but Munchlax is slower and Porygon gets a useless Attack boost switching in. That leaves Meowth as the only common Normal-type that might give Duskull trouble with a Technician-boosted super effective Bite.</p>

    <p>This set generally works standalone to surprise an opponent. It receives a great boon from Diglett, who can trap the Houndour that make pulling this off difficult, in addition to Diglett's ability to set rocks. Gligar works for similar reasons although it can't trap, so it isn't foolproof. Anorith is again helpful for its speed and ability to set up Stealth Rock. Breaking Sashes greatly increases the efficiency of this set.</p>

    [EVs]

    All of Duskull's stats end in 0 except for Speed. Speed is useless on Duskull, and in fact when running Trick Room, less is more. In the calculator I used, Duskull's defenses stopped reducing the damage range of common atttack scenarios after 17, or 116 EVs (36 with a positive Nature). Duskull also doesn't gain any damage when its attack was raised above 12, or 116 EVs.

    [Other Options]

    <p>Mentioned in the first set, it bears repeating that Duskull is an excellent user of Trick Room. All you need to do is set its Speed IV to 0 and you are done. Duskull can also set up Rain Dance for your team, although it isn't a fan of boosted Water-type attacks itself. Duskull is a bit too slow to run Taunt effectively. Duskull can easily set up Substitute on Choice item Normal-, Fighting-, and Ground-type attacks and punish a switch-in with an attack followed by Shadow Sneak. Confuse Ray has the potential to buy you a few turns and potentially let you escape from Pursuit using Pokemon unharmed. 50% is still unreliable and they can snap out of Confusion quickly, so be aware this is a high-risk high-reward move.</p>

    <p>Duskull supports Hail teams well with an immunity to Fighting and access to the powerful Blizzard. Leftovers can serve it a bit better there to keep Hail at bay and Protect stall, since Duskull is immune to Toxic Spikes and Spikes. Duskull's other Ice-type attack is Icy Wind, although lowering Speed isn't helpful unless you intend to raise Duskull's a little bit, or exploit it with another of your Pokemon.</p>

    <p>Curse, Grudge, Memento, and Destiny Bond are all oddball options if you like to leave your opponent with a nasty surprise, but they are each hard to use. The easiest thing to Grudge is probably Sucker Punch. Imprison is a rather silly way to lock the Shadow Ball of opposing Ghosts and Porygon, but it can be done; Will-O-Wisp or Disable address Pursuit better than Imprison in most cases.</p>

    <p>Duskull can use Rest to stay in the battle longer. Unfortunately it leaves Duskull vulnerable, especially to Pursuit so Pain Split is usually recommended for mid-battle healing. Sleep Talk can be used with Rest to reduce Rest's liabilities, since Ice Beam and Shadow Sneak keep a few major metagame threats in check.</p>

    [Team Options]

    <p>Largely covered in the two sets, but for emphasis pick things that set up Stealth Rock and destroy Houndour. Anorith, Diglett, and Ponyta all fulfill one or both of these needs by being faster than Houndour, capable of OHKO'ing it, or making its life miserable with Stealth Rocks. Water types with Aqua Jet also perform well; Kabuto has a 4x resistance to Flamethrower and can easily KO Houndour. Do watch out for Hidden Power Grass though. Mankey and Gligar can pivot to Duskull after a U-turn to avoid taking damage from Return or Ice Punch, both of which Duskull easily survives. Duskull's 3 immunities and solid defenses make it a crucial pivot, and its ability to incapacitate physical attackers puts pokemon like Munchlax, Chinchou, and Mantyke at ease. Immunity to Quick Attack and Mach Punch allow it to finish off weakened Elekid and Magby, although watch out for Static and Flame Body; Shadow Sneak is a contact attack and can activate them. Essentially, choose things that benefit from Duskull's strengths as a support pokemon. Duskull is a pokemon you use to fill the holes in the rest of your team, not a pokemon you build your team around.</p>

    [Opinion]

    <p>Duskull plays a unique role as a defensive Ghost-type in a metagame where Ghost-types are nearly synonymous with offense. Don't let its defensive nature frighten you away from using it, with unique access to Ice Beam and at least a prayer of surviving unboosted Night Slash, Duskull can spook Gligar like no other. Duskull is a team player, not the star of the show. It can remove some pretty big metagame threats when played properly, but it will not sweep entire teams.</p>

    [Counters]

    <p>Houndour. Getting a boost to Flash Fire from Will-o-Wisp, possessing STAB Pursuit and Sucker Punch, and being able to cover most of Duskull's favored allies with HP Grass makes Houndour the stuff of nightmares. This applies to Ponyta to an extent, since Duskull's Defense, while decent, is not made for eating Flash Fire boosted Flare Blitz. Guts Machop, Makuhita, and Larvitar have Dark attacks they can utilize to put the hurt on Duskull, even if unSTABed. Bronzor works to an extent in a "war of the walls" way on a support set, but it completely fails at addressing Calm Mind.</p>

    <p>Revenge killing Duskull is not always as simple as using super-effective attacks. Gligar can finish it with Night Slash but should stay away otherwise for fear of Ice Beam. Misdreavus and Gastly both have to watch out for Shadow Sneak. What works most effectively is powerful attacks from pokemon that Duskull can't do much damage to. Wailmer is a prime example, since Shadow Sneak doesn't chip off much HP and Water Spout does immense damage. Strong special attackers like Magnemite and Staryu break through it easily with little fear of retaliation, and most Fire-types can scare it away. Basically if you resist Ice Beam, use special attacks, and aren't weak to Shadow Sneak, you can probably force Duskull out.
  2. franky

    franky
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    [SET]
    name: Support
    move 1: Will-o-Wisp
    move 2: Shadow Sneak
    move 3: Ice Beam
    move 4: Disable / Trick Room
    item: Oran Berry
    ability: Levitate
    nature: Relaxed
    evs: 196 HP / 116 Atk / 36 Def / 36 SpA / 116 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]
    <p>Duskull plays entirely differently from its Levitating Ghost-type brethren. It has low Speed and high Defenses, and thus uses its 3 immunities not to set up but to wall opponents entirely.</p>

    <p>Each attack on this set has its own purpose: Will-O-Wisp incapacitates physical attackers of all kinds. It can switch in on powerful Normal- and Ground-type and threaten to cripple the attacker. Shadow Sneak provides Duskull a means to deal with the other Ghost-types. It 2HKO's Misdreavus and can OHKO Hasty Gastly. Duskull can usually survive an unboosted Misdreavus Shadow Ball, but is doomed against boosted ones. Ice Beam can OHKO 0 HP / 0 SpD Gligar 100% of the time, and 156 HP / 0 SpD Gligar 80% of the time.</p>

    <p>The last slot depends on what your team needs. One of the most common answers to Ghost-types is Pursuit Munchlax. Because Duskull can easily survive an unboosted Pursuit, it can use Disable to prevent Snorlax from using Pursuit again and switch out freely or attempt to burn with Will-O-Wisp the next turn (in either order, really). Disable also works wonders against Pokemon that use Sucker Punch to punish Ghost-types, and predicting it can lock the move until the opponent switches out. Disable can miss as it only has 80% accuracy, but when it works it often provides an impasse for the would-be counter. If you are using a Trick Room team, Duskull is one of the best Pokemon to start it. It is naturally slow, has many chances to switch in, and is bulky enough to set it up more than once.</p>

    <p>Duskull is an excellent partner to any pokemon with Stealth Rock. Spinners are rare in Little Cup to begin with, but because a large number of Duskull's counters hate dealing with Stealth Rock, the ability to stop a spin and take several hits is an invaluable asset. Whether it is breaking a Focus Sash, eating away 25% of HP, or just getting an opponent in KO range. Duskull appreciates life with Stealth Rock on the field. Anorith is notable for its good Speed and high offensive prowess, it is especially effective at taking down similarly built Houndour who otherwise trouble Duskull nightmares. Bringing a Houndour of your own can also help Duskull survive, since a Houndour mirror match is usually a draw. Pontya can also work, warding off Houndour with strong physical attacks and immunity to Flamethrower. Munchlax is also solid with its high Special Defense and Thick Fat.</p>


    Gtg for now
  3. Heysup

    Heysup CANadian not a CANTnadian
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    I actually prefer this set:

    [SET]
    name: Support
    move 1: Will-o-Wisp
    move 2: Shadow Sneak
    move 3: Confuse Ray / Ice Beam
    move 4: Rest / Pain Split
    item: Oran Berry
    ability: Levitate
    nature: Relaxed
    evs: 196 HP / 116 Atk / 196 SpD

    This set, imo, is the best Duskull set for many reasons. Firstly, it can basically beat any Pokemon one versus one with WoW + Confuse Ray + Rest. Second, the new EVs allow it to wall special Pokemon more successfully, while still being able to easily handle physical threats with WoW, as special attacks still hurt through the burn. Confuse Ray gives Duskull a much needed way to hit Houndour, arguably the most dangerous Pokemon to give a free attack.

    Pain Split also works, as Duskull's hp is so low that any semi-bulky Pokemon can heal it an impressive amount. Its a nice option of you are afraid of SubSneak Missy, for example if your team doesn't carry something like Munchlax or Stunky.

    Id like to point out that Missy is in-fact better than Duskull defensively, however Duskull benefits more from an Oran Berry. That should go in opinion IMO.
  4. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight prominent CAP users
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    Missy doesn't invest in defenses.

    22/12/15 (Standard Misdreavus) < 21/17/17(Support) and 19/17/18 (CM)

    I checked LCF, the Bulkiest Misdeavus (anti-lead) had 196/0/0 investment. 25/12/15 is probably equivalent in SpD and inferior in Defense.

    The SubSneak Mis had Hasty and Mild as its natures, both lowering Defense by 2 (22/10/15).
  5. Heysup

    Heysup CANadian not a CANTnadian
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    Why can't missy invest in Defenses? Just because people use Missy as an offensive Pokemon 99% of the time, doesn't mean it isn't better than duskull in almost every way defensively. It gets something like 25/16/16 with better speed, offensive stats (13 Attack and 15 SpA, or 12 Atk and 16 SpA), and can run the same movesets. The only advantage Duskull really has is its lower HP - Defenses ratio, which takes advantage of Oran Berry.
  6. Deck Knight

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    Because Speed is Defense for Misdreavus. Why should Misdreavus sit at 14 Speed like it would were it to mimic Duskull's EVs/Nature? It would get nuked by everything that actually worries about Misdreavus before it moved, and waste entirely that delicious, delicious 85 Base Speed. The speed tie is the only reason Misdreavus stands a chance against Gligar in the first place.

    Misdreavus also lacks Ice Beam, one of the things that lets Duskull get away with low speed. Almost all of Ice Beam's targets except for Gligar are ineffectual at taking Duskull down whatsoever. Misdreavus has more important things to do than be Duskull with no Ice Beam and 14 Speed. Misdreavus also doesn't get Disable to lock Pursuit and is an inferior user of Trick Room. The Support set Duskull has listed is already 50% Misdreavus-impossible.

    Misdreavus is superior to Duskull defensively the day someone creates and tests a defensive Misdreavus set that is equally effective as the current sweeping iterations of Misdreavus.

    Until such a day occurs, Misdreavus is only better defensively than Duskull if they were timewarped back into GSC, where paper base stats were all that mattered.

    Addendum: I ran some calculations this morning and Misdreavus' HP Ice deals the same damage to Gligar at 15-16 SA as Duskull's Ice Beam does at 10 SA. Unfortunately it eats Misdreavus' Hidden Power in the process, and its fourth move would probably end up as Thunderbolt or Shadow Ball, given Pain Split is lame on a Missy with 25 HP.

    Then again, why don't you post that Support Set in an upcoming Misdreavus topic? Given that Misdreavus can access all the moves on that set (with HP Ice in lieu of Ice Beam in CR/IBeam), and has more Defense with which to survive with Rest.

    The Misdreavus support argument also doesn't seem credible to me for this reason: There are Misdreavus sets so powerful you can center your team around them. You can't really do that with Duskull, which isn't a knock as much as saying Duskull serves an entirely different purpose.
  7. sbc

    sbc

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    I agree with Deck Knight here, it's all about comparative advantage. Also, Heysup, is Rest really that good at all? I mean isn't that a just green light to switch to a Pursuiter or something that can 2HKO it, without any risk to the opponent?
  8. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
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    This is reminding me of the silly thing where people were trying to figure out how Salamence could be comparably bulky to Dragonite until people decided "Why?". Dragonite has a better support movepool, better defenses, and less speed, so it's less suitable for sweeping and more suitable for defense.

    It's the same thing here. Who gives a damn if Misdreavus can be just as good defensively? Duskull has Ice Beam and higher Defenses, as well as lower Speed. Misdreavus can sweep, and it's better off doing that than trying to be some kind of low-rent Duskull wannabe. Can we stop the whole "defensive Misdreavus > Duskull" thing? If you really want to suggest a defensive Misdreavus, why don't you write up a set and then suggest it in the analysis when it pops up? Just keep it out of this topic please.
  9. Heysup

    Heysup CANadian not a CANTnadian
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    I was just simply suggesting it goes in opinion, but anyway that sort of distracted everyone from the main point of my post, the set.

    Rest is great as a recovery move for Duskull with its awesome defenses and WoW. It can outstall A surprising amount of Pokemon in the metagame, including said Pursuiters (Munchlax, Stunky), while Pain Split stops being effective once the opponent is low HP. Confuse Ray is also Duskulls best defense against Houndour.
  10. Deck Knight

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    Alright, so to resolve this, I'm putting Confuse Ray, Rest, and Pain Split in other options.

    Confuse Ray is not an answer to Houndour, nor even a best option (HP Fighting, Disable). It is a 50% chance that Duskull gets away without getting nuked by Pursuit, assuming Trick Room is up or you use it as Houndour switches in. A 50% chance of anything isn't reliable. You cannot stall out anything if you are relying on a 75% accurate burn move and 50% chance of confusion. Unless of course you are a lucky bastard.

    The set also dies horribly to Taunt Voltorb. The best attack you can muster against it is Shadow Sneak, which is just begging for Static, and once Taunted they can switch to any Ghost resistance and set up.

    All in all I'm not impressed. Pain Split is interesting but I'm not sure it works in a metagame where full HP ranges from 19-25 between most pokemon. It does at least work fairly well with Shadow Sneak. Its one instance where I think Leftovers would be preferable to Oran because you regain HP slowly instead of 10 at once.

    I also don't want Other Options to become Misc.Soup. So I'll drop Charge Beam. and put Rest/Pain Split in. After a grammar check I think this will be done.
  11. Heysup

    Heysup CANadian not a CANTnadian
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    I never said "Confuse Ray is an answer to Houndour", I said "Confuse Ray is Duskull's best option against Houndour". If you're about to try to convince me that HP Fighting (47.62% - 57.14% (lol)), or Disable (tell me when disabling Crunch / Dark Pulse works for you), are better options for hitting Houndour on the switch, then I don't know what to say to be honest. Because that's simply untrue >.>. You seem to miss the point of Confuse Ray; it makes you able to deal with every Pokemon that switches in more effectively. Confuse Ray gives you a 50% chance for a free switch in some cases, or even an easy chance to beat some Pokemon (Gligar for example, who can Roost-heal through WoW and set up Swords Dances otherwise), especially Substitute users like Missy who now aren't going to risk the extra turn to Substitute.

    That's like saying Rest/Stalk/WoW/Shadow Ball Rotom is weak to Aerodactyl (possibly a bad example, but hopefully you'll get the point), therefore it shouldn't be a set. What I'm trying to say is; every Pokemon / set has a counter or two, and this counter is especially irrelevant because this Voltorb is a lead and Duskull is a tank.
    I prefer rest, but Pain Split should be slashed because of Duskulls low base HP. This is its advantage over Misdreavus too, because its base HP is so low that when its even at half health (10-11), any Pokemon switching in (like even Houndour with 21) will heal it to 75%-ish, and it doesn't make you Sleep.

    (And @ Bolded: You can always test it yourself if you aren't sure, this shouldn't be just theorymon)

    I really think you should re-consider, or at least test the set I'm suggesting.
  12. Blackhawk11

    Blackhawk11 one on one

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    This should probably still be checked over by someone who has a bit more experience editing analyses. I'm rather new to it.
    My edits are bold.
    My comments are in (parentheses and bold italics).
  13. mingot

    mingot free agent
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    Capitalize all instances of Pokemon.
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