1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Elements of the Desert (peaked #1)

Discussion in 'BW Other Teams' started by Hack, Jan 5, 2013.

  1. Hack

    Hack formerly Hack He Must
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2012
    Messages:
    909
    Introduction:
    Hello all, Hack He Must here with my first RMT. With a little help from fellow users Anikrahman1995 and Imma Fly, this RMT will showcase a stall-based sandstorm team which is probably the best team I have ever built. Also, my two friends will have their say in this test as well, by helping out with the individual analysis of some team members, as well as the threatlist.
    Ladder accomplishments aren’t exactly what I like to call the best way to display a team’s strength. Nevertheless, this team has served me well and got me to the #1 spot on the Uber ladder at Pokemon Showdown!
    Sand is very viable in the Uber metagame. This team features Hippowdon, and tries to use its good qualities to make the best out of a Pokémon that might seem out of place in the tier. I present to you: Elements of the Desert!
    Team Building:

    Show Hide

    [​IMG]
    Sand was on the menu (my brain) so I of course picked Tyranitar as anyone else would do when considering sand in the Uber metagame.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Assembling together a very standard core, Tyranitar + Specially defensive Giratina + Ferrothorn. Spike stacking with residual damage, yes it is stall.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Now I had what I needed to counter Kyogre, so I decided on getting something for Arceus Extremekiller as well. Rock Arceus with Will-o-wisp seemed good. It also helped against Rayquaza and Ho-Oh.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Excadrill used for sweeping and spinning. I really felt that this team began to look very much like Donkey's from BW.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Last member was Ho-Oh. Ho-Oh is my favorite Uber Pokémon and found its place on this team as well.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Usually I just throw together a bunch of stuff first, and after some play testing I realised I had nothing to safely switch into Groudon. This was really bad, because my team relies on winning weather wars. Therfore, Hippowdon was chosen to summon sand. It beats support Groudon one on one thanks to slack off as well.

    This is where I used my team a lot before making more changes to its members. I qualified for the voting in the Uber clause testing (evasion) with ease and it felt like a good team overall. There were two problems, however. I had no ice resist. Newer players might not know how crucial that is to a stall-based team. Having something to take on a choiced Kyurem-White is mandatory, and Arceus rock was weather too weather dependent. Also, choice-less Palkia rolled over this team completely. During these realizations I met Anikrahman1995 and Imma Fly.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    While making minor changes on the other members we had a go at solving the Palkia problem. Latios was chosen instead of Ho-Oh sadly. It threatened Palkia greatly, while also using Hidden Power Fire to smite spikers such as Forretress. Grass knot helped in beating Kyogre quickly.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    It didn’t really work out, though. We started looking at other pokes to replace. Arceus-Rock was chosen. We brought Ho-Oh back for Latios and looked at what Arceus formes could help against Palkia while keeping the ice resistance as well. The uncommon Arceus-Water won a spot on the team. Besides the mentioned qualities, it is also a surprising threat and a special sweeper many players overlook. And also, as Anikrahman pointed out, it combines with Ho-Oh and Ferrothorn to form the incredibly cool Fire-Water-Grass core (seriously, have anyone ever seen one of those in Ubers?).


    Team at a glance:

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Ladder Peak:
    Show Hide
    [​IMG]

    Note: 64-6 win-loss record ^_^. This is far more important than the ladder peak itself as it shows that we hardly ever lost.

    In detail:


    [​IMG]
    Powdon (Hippowdon) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sand Stream
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
    Impish Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Slack Off
    - Whirlwind

    As I wanted to use a sand team, I needed a pokemon with the ability Sand Stream. Hippowdon was the sand inducer of choice after I realised that Tyranitar was not a good switch-in to Groudon - a big problem indeed. Unlike Tyranitar, Hippowdon actually has the ability to outlast Groudon thanks to the wonderful move Slack Off. Using Hippowdon means that the team gives up the ability to Pursuit-trap Choice Scarf/Specs Kyogre locked into Thunder or Ice beam, but the team has enough checks for Kyogre anyway. Hippowdon is a nice answer to Zekrom, especially Substitute + Hone Claws variants because of Whirlwind. Furthermore, it fills three very important roles on my team, other than bringing sand, of course, that are crucial for the team’s strategy itself:

    1) It sets up stealth rock. Residual damage is essential to this team; this allows Excadrill to break down Arceus Ghost if a spin is needed.
    +2 252+ Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Ghost: 315-372 (70.94 - 83.78%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes. As you can see, this is a guaranteed KO after Sandstorm damage.
    2) It is able phaze out any greedy Extremekiller Arceus that wants to set up too early for its own good.
    3) It phazes out tank Ho-Oh behind a sub. This is very important because it allows me to be more aggressive when setting up spikes with Ferrothorn - a big part of my game plan.

    The EV spread is standard. Hippowdon is a good physical wall due to its high physical defense and access to recovery in Slack Off. Slack off provides longevity against Groudon and Kyogre in weather wars as well as being a great healing move in general. Stealth Rock is self-explanatory and Earthquake is the obligatory stab, while Whirlwind prevents stuff from setting up on the Hippo.


    [​IMG]
    Sk8rboy (Excadrill) @ Air Balloon
    Trait: Sand Rush
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Rapid Spin
    - Swords Dance
    - Iron Head

    The second member that came to my mind when using sand was him. Excadrill is my spinner and late-game cleaner who outspeeds almost everything under sand. Often it doesn't even have to boost its attack with Swords Dance because Sand + Spikes + Stealth Rock will weaken the opposing team a lot.

    Regarding spinning, it is a common saying that it is nigh impossible to spin in the Uber tier because of the prevalence of the three spinblockers Giratina, Giratina-O and Arceus-Ghost. Excadrill can get past all but impish Giratina because of the residual damage from Sandstorm, Spikes and Stealth Rock. It manages to spin more often than one might think. This makes Excadrill the best spinner in Ubers to date.

    Max attack and speed provide optimum sweeping potential. Despite Smash-Pass being rare, 252 speed EVs makes Excadrill out speed +2 Smeargle in sand - an insurance against it is always nice to have. Iron Head is chosen to hit Gliscor hard. Gliscor is a big threat to sand teams in general and that's why balloon is the preferred item on Excadrill. With smart switching, it can also use the balloon against Groudon and other Excadrill. For example, Excadrill can 2HKO Fire Punch-less support Groudon with a boosted Earthquake, while it fails to hit back with its STAB Earthquake. Swords Dance, used to boost attack, enables it to sweep or bust through a spinblocker. Rapid Spin can be used to remove hazards; do not blindly do this if they still have spinblockers or Groudon alive.

    [​IMG]
    C4 Durian (Ferrothorn) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Iron Barbs
    EVs: 252 HP / 248 SDef / 8 Spd
    Careful Nature
    - Leech Seed
    - Spikes
    - Thunder Wave
    - Power Whip


    Ferrothorn is the Grass-type of our Fire-Water-Grass core. Its array of resistances allow it to switch into attacks such as, but not limited to, Grass Knot, Draco Meteor, Outrage and, more importantly, non-Choice Specs Water Spout from Kyogre. With that auspicious Grass/Steel typing, it is no wonder why Ferrothorn is an A-tier Pokémon. If the opponent's team is weak to hazards and has no spinner, we take every oppurtunity to send it out and set up some spikes. Spikes + Leech Seed + Sandtorm + Stealth Rock will quickly wear down the opposing team. This way, most Pokémon will lose about 43% of their health from just switching into Leech Seed. The synergy it has with the rest of the team is remarkable; Ho-Oh, Arceus-Water and Giratina resist Fire-type attacks while Ho-Oh and Giratina(again) are resistant or immune to fighting type attacks. When using Ferrothorn, make sure to keep track of its health. Do not blindly Leech Seed. Use Spikes if you are a relatively high health (70%).

    The move set is standard:

    Leech Seed: Recovery and residual damage on opponents. With Pokémon like Giratina, Arceus and Ho-Oh switcing in on it, you can expect it to regain plenty of health quickly.
    Spikes: Wears down grounded Pokémon in conjuction with the passive damage from sandstorm and phazing. It is also a very important tool for winning the weather war. Groudon is walled by Hippowdon while Kyogre is walled by Ferrothorn.
    Thunder Wave: We used to have Protect in this slot previously. Thunder Wave cripples many Pokémon that switch into Ferrothorn. These Pokémon include: Blaziken, Rayquaza, Palkia, Ho-Oh, Mewtwo, Support Arceus and almost anything that is not a Ground-type.
    Power Whip: This is the STAB move needed to hurt Kyogre or Groudon switching in. It is moderately powerful even though Ferrothorn's attack stat is un-invested. Gyro Ball was neglected because we did not like the idea of having a Ferrothorn that could not hurt Kyogre significantly.

    Protect: There is a reason why we chose not to use protect. I will just quote something that was said in the Smog: "Protect is a good move if used sparingly, but sometimes, you really have to ask yourself: is it really worth that moveslot? This is especially true when some Pokémon have heavy "four moveslot syndrome" already. Ferrothorn is probably one of the biggest examples of this. Yes, Protect is probably the best move on most Ferrothorn sets as it gives it an extra turn of Leech Seed recovery. However, is it really worth using over something like Thunder Wave, a second STAB attack (like Power Whip for Gyarados), or that extra entry hazard? Each move that you place Protect over may be an extra moveslot wasted on another Pokémon, or an advantage lost to your team. Obviously, if your team can accommodate it, that's fine, but if your team is running low on move slots, maybe it's a good idea to drop Protect for the other move."

    The EV spread maximizes its ability to take special attacks. The 252 HP is for maximum leftovers recovery. 8 speed EVs is used to speed creep other Ferrothorn while simultaneously allowing it to out speed max speed base 90s after Thunder Wave.


    [​IMG]
    Giratina-Awesome (Giratina) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 244 SDef / 248 HP / 16 Spd
    Careful Nature
    - Will-O-Wisp
    – Dragon Tail
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk

    The Altered (Awesome) form of the Renegade Pokémon takes its place as the 4th member of the team. Given Giratina’s stellar base 150/120/120 Defenses along with is fantastic Ghost-Dragon typing, it is little wonder why it should be chosen as one of the team’s special walls. With Giratina’s Ghost-Dragon typing added to the team, it helps add on to the team’s resistance to Ogre’s Water Spouts, as well as being a spinblocker and a perfect target practice for a Hi-Jump Kick.

    As such, Giratina serves as a great ogre check, switching in on even Specs water-spouts that fail to 2HKO it even in the rain. Why is this important you ask? This is so as in the whole team, only Giratina has the ability to prevent the team’s demise from a rampaging Specs Kyogre, with all other members being 2HKOed by a Specs Water Spout (Yes, even Ferrothorn). Even in the rain a Modest Specs Ogre fails to finish Giratina off in 2 hits with its monstrous water spout. This enables it to in turn phaze ogre out with a dragon tail and have it gradually weakened to death though a vicious cycle of switching in on stealth rocks, Brave Birds from Ho-Oh, and other attacks.

    Furthermore, another reason why Giratina was chosen was due to its great defensive synergy with the team. With the team consisting of Pseudo-Walls in the form of Ho-Oh and WaterCeus, and a tank in Ferrothorn, Giratina is able to resist attacks that its teammates cannot take (Eg. A Thunder fired for Arceus-Water/Ho-oh, Surf on Ho-oh/Fire Blast on Ferrothorn and even Grass Knot at Arceus-Water). In turn, attacks that Giratina may be weak to, such as Dragon and Ice type moves, are resisted by its allies such as Ferrothorn and Arceus-Water. In addition, any strong physical type moves that may affect Giratina such as Shadow Claw are sponged by Hippowdon. See why I said the defensive synergy is great? ☺

    EV Explanation:

    248 HP and 244 Special Defense EVs are allocated to Giratina to ensure that it becomes specially tanky. The 16 Speed Evs serve as a speed creep against other fellow Giratina in the race for phaze and to outspeed fellow base 90s. Careful nature so that Dragon Tail’s power, however weak it may be, is not gimped.

    MoveSet Explanation:

    Will-O-Wisp: Even though Hippodown serves as a physical wall and an Ekiller Check in the process, it never hurts to cripple them with a little burn.
    Dragon Tail: To serve as a phasing move… and to inflict some damage as an added benefit. The reason why Roar is not chosen is in order to prevent Giratina from being completely shut down by Taunt. Besides, Ho-Oh has whirlwind precisely to phaze other pokes that hide behind Subs.
    Rest: No arguments. It is compulsory for all Giratina-A to have Rest.
    Sleep Talk: Gives you a chance to Phaze / Burn while asleep, serving as one of the reasons why Giratina is such an irritating Pokémon.

    Item: Leftovers, obviously.


    [​IMG]
    ThanksGiving (Ho-Oh) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 HP / 84 SDef / 16 Spd / 156 Atk
    Adamant Nature
    - Brave Bird
    - Sacred Fire
    - Roost
    - Whirlwind

    Alright, as Thanksgiving approaches, here comes the turkey (Ho-oh)…Hey wait, Ho-Oh in a SAND team? This isn’t right! Yup, that’s the first thing that all pops up in our minds. It’s probably a mistake - no it isn’t a mistake! Ho-Oh wasn’t selected simply as a Thanksgiving turkey to be carved out and served to the opponent on a platter of rocks, or whatever the platter is made of. Let’s examine Ho-Oh’s unique role in detail.

    First off, let’s have a look at Ho-Oh’s gargantuan Special Defense. It is blessed with a giant base 154 Special Defense that’s unmatched by all in the Uber tier except its good friend Lugia. Combine that with its decent 106 base HP, it becomes a monstrous tank that takes Special Attacks like a boss. With 252HP and 84 Special Defense EVs, it can even absorb a Choice Specs Kyurem-White’s Draco Meteor if the need arises and survive; assuming Stealth Rocks are off your side of the field. Furthermore, if Kyurem-White decides to use Ice Beam, which may 2HKO Ho-Oh and Ferrothorn, Arceus-Water is always there to take one for the team.

    What? There are rocks on our side of the field? Ho-Oh is still useful nonetheless. It helps to sponge the attacks of CM Ghostceus, which does pose a certain degree of threat to the team given its combination of Judgment + Focus Blast / Flamethrower. For instance:
    4 SpA Spooky Plate Arceus-Ghost Judgment (Ghost) vs. 252 HP / 84 SpD Ho-Oh: 99-117 (23.79 - 28.12%) -- 22.66% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    *Needless to say Flamethrower (in neutral weather) and Focus Blast won’t do anything to Ho-Oh, dealing 7.45% and 9.37% MAX damage to Ho-oh respectively.

    That’s not all there is to Ho-Oh. Its main roles involve attracting Kyogres to switch in into its Brave Bird and to incinerate opposing Ferrothorn into cinders. Despite it having a lower Attack EV distribution than a standard Ho-Oh and holding leftovers, it still packs a punch to Ogres. Scarf & Specs Kyogres are 2HKOed, while even the physically bulky Ogre falls to 3 of these Brave Turkey assaults. Naturally, once Ogre is in the field, Ho-Oh will be able to retreat safely and have its flank covered by its allies Ferrothorn and Giratina - no worries?

    EV Explanation:
    252 HP and 84 Special Defense are used to tank strong special attacks.
    16 Speed for a minor Speed Creep, hope it works?
    Needless to say, the rest of the EVs (156) go to attack to give its attacks some power.

    Move set Explanation:
    Brave Bird – Standard Move, nothing much to say
    Sacred Fire – Standard Move, has a great 50% burn chance. Sweet.
    Roost – To heal and prevent thunder from working (in the off-chance the opponent uses thunder suddenly).
    Whirlwind - Why this over Substitute you ask? Well, since we are fighting in a sandstorm, the passive recovery from leftovers is used to negate the sand’s effects. Therefore, any life lost from Substitute is not recovered and this isn’t good. Substitute to gain protection against Kyogre you might say? Well, what we do is simply predict the Ogre / Palkia switch in and perform a hit-and-run Brave Bird, and regenerator negates the recoil for us.

    Note: In the context of this team, Leftovers is absolutely essential. No buts! Ho-Oh needs to keep its life high to fulfill its role as a tank, and Life Orb is only going to harm us overall when Ho-Oh loses its life at an alarming rate.


    [​IMG]
    Splashy (Arceus-Water) @ Splash Plate
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 252 HP / 80 SDef / 176 Spd
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Judgment
    - Recover
    - Ice Beam/Refresh
    - Calm Mind

    Arceus-Water was the last member to be chosen. If I were to describe it, I would say that it is the last puzzle piece. Arceus-Water provides two things that the rest of the team lacked: 1) Ice-resist, 2) Special sweeper. It, through near-impeccable synergy with Ho-Oh and ferrothorn, creates a Fire-Water-Grass core. The only type that is not resisted among the three is flying which our, Sand-setter, Hippowdon tanks nicely. Against opposing stall, it can act as our win condition if we choose to run Refresh. It is our third Water-resist used to balance out the Water-type weakness on the three remaining Pokémon. The weather war vs. sun is much easier to win if Arceus-Water hurts Groudon as switches in.

    Arceus-Water baits thunder from Kyogre, thereby, providing the perfect oppurtunity for Ferrothorn to come in and set up some spikes. Opposing Ferrothorns that switch in will promptly be sent packing by Ho-Oh. Arceus-Water can switch into moves such as Kyurem-W's Ice Beam which Ho-Oh and Ferrothorn have trouble taking. It is our initial switch-in to Reshiram - the fiery dragon who often (read: rarely) tries to surprise Ho-Oh with Stone Edge. Calm Mind wars are a walk in the park if Ho-Oh has burned the opposing Calm Minder previously.

    Why did we not pick Calm Mind Latias? Well, it is Genesect bait. Kyogre + Genesect could trouble Latias greatly. There is also that Physical bulk and a resistance, instead of a weakness, to Ice-type attacks. It can also act as a Ho-Oh check provided that sandstorm is up. It also has the ability to check Sword Dance Rayquaza; Latias falls to +2 ExtremeSpeed.

    The moves chosen are more or less obvious:

    Judgment is STAB - OHKOs Ho-Oh.
    Ice Beam to OHKO Rayquaza (thereby mitigating our Rayquaza weakness). OHKOing Gliscor is a bonus.
    Calm Mind to boost against special attackers - Kyurem-W, Reshiram and Choice-locked Dragons.
    Recover is necessary to regain health when needed.

    The Speed EVs were given to out speed Latias and Latios because we felt that max speed was largely unnecessary. The leftover EVs are poured into Special Defense to allow easier setup. The Calm Mind set was chosen to let it sweep late game should the opportunity present itself while simultaneously acting as a Pseudo-Special Wall.

    Conclusion:

    Sand stall is a perfectly viable strategy in Ubers - get down hazards, switch smart and punish the opponent’s hazard setters. Innovative members on sand teams provide perfect synergy between its members. Arceus-Water needs more love. This team needs time to get acquainted with, so don’t give up early if you want to try it.​

    Credits:

    Hack He must for making the team and getting the ladder peak with a high win-loss record.​

    To Anikrahman1995; he is one of the best Ubers players out there. Very influential to me (might even make me consider making some Deoxys-Speed HO teams someday). His big contribution to this text itself is invaluable. Sets written - Ferrothorn and Arceus-Water. The formatting has also been done by him as well as two very bright suggestions to the team: Arceus-Water and Thunder Wave on Ferrothorn​

    To Imma Fly; he is a great friend and battler alike. He is new to the Uber scene, but ready to rock nonetheless. I am very thankful for his contribution in play testing and writing. Sets written - Ho-Oh and Giratina.​

    To Kebabe, my friend in real life: Thanks for some great battles with this team.​

    To PS! User, Zolar, another real life friend, who helped in play testing too! ​

    PS. Leave a luvdisc if you like or steal this :)

    Importable:
    Show Hide
    Powdon (Hippowdon) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sand Stream
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
    Impish Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Slack Off
    - Whirlwind

    ThanksGiving (Ho-Oh) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 HP / 156 Atk / 84 SDef / 16 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Brave Bird
    - Sacred Fire
    - Roost
    - Whirlwind

    c4 durian (Ferrothorn) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Iron Barbs
    EVs: 252 HP / 248 SDef / 8 Spd
    Careful Nature
    - Leech Seed
    - Spikes
    - Thunder Wave
    - Power Whip

    Splashy (Arceus-Water) @ Splash Plate
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 252 HP / 80 SDef / 176 Spd
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Judgment
    - Recover
    - Ice Beam
    - Calm Mind

    Giratina-Awesome (Giratina) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 244 HP / 248 SDef / 16 Spd
    Careful Nature
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Dragon Tail
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk

    Sk8rboy (Excadrill) @ Air Balloon
    Trait: Sand Rush
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Rapid Spin
    - Swords Dance
    - Iron Head
    unfixable likes this.
  2. Hack

    Hack formerly Hack He Must
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2012
    Messages:
    909
    Show Hide
    Ubers Threat List

    Offensive Threats

    Tier 1

    Arceus
    • Extreme Killer (Swords Dance) – Our first switch-in to it is Hipppowdon. We will not risk sending in Giratina, which is Specially Defensive, unless it is a last resort.
    • Choice Band – This is trickier to handle. It will cripple one of our Pokémon with trick. Thankfully, it is quite rare.

    Arceus-Fighting
    • Calm Mind – Ho-Oh switches into it and spams Brave Bird. Giratina can burn and phaze it.

    Arceus-Ghost
    • Calm Mind – It is never getting past Ho-Oh. Ferrothorn’s Leech Seed and Sandstorm damage wears it down quickly. Arceus-Water wins the Calm Mind war if it is burned / seeded.
    • Swords Dance – Hippowdon can phaze it.

    Arceus-Ground
    • Calm Mind – Yet again, Ho-Oh walls this.
    • Swords Dance – Ferrothorn, Arceus-Water and Hippowon can take care of it.

    Darkrai
    • Special Sweeper – Ugh, substitute variants are a pain to handle.
    • Choice Scarf – It will cripple one or more Pokémon
    • Double Status – Excadrill can switch into it and kill it.

    Dialga
    • Special Attacker – Ho-Oh walls everything bar surprise Stone Edge. Arceus-Water can set up on Choice-locked Dragon Pulse.
    • Mixed – What does it do again? Ho-Oh burns it and then phazes.
    • Bulk Up + RestTalk – We keep phasing until it is the last Pokémon. Ferrothorn then Leech Seeds. Excadrill can set-up alongside it.
    • Choice Scarf – Ho-Oh walls it. Arceus-Water can set up.

    Groudon
    • Rock Polish – Hippowdon.
    • Paradancer – Ugh. Hippowdon can phaze. Arceus-Water can revenge if sun is not shining brightly.
    • Choice Band - 252+ Atk Choice Band Groudon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 192-226 (45.71 - 53.8%) -- 2.34% chance to 2HKO. Then we switch to Ho-Oh.
    • Offensive Stealth Rock – Hippowdon walls it.

    Ho-Oh
    • Tank – Hippowdon can wall it. The Life Orb variant is more threatening as it does huge damage; thankfully, it won’t last long in a sandstorm.
    • Physical Sweeper – Hippowdon walls it.
    • Choice Scarf – Hippowdon.

    Kyogre
    • Choice Scarf – Ferrothorn if sandstorm is up; Giratina is used to scout its set and as such, it is out intial switch-in.
    • Choice Specs – Giratina if rain is up. Arceus-Water can switch in and Calm Mind to avoid the 2hko. Ferrothorn if sand is up.
    • Calm Mind + 3 Attacks – Ferrothorn win the damage race.
    • Mono-Attacker – Giratina walls it. Ferrothorn seeds it if it is the last Pokémon and Arceus-Water begins a Calm Mind war afterwards.
    • Thunder Wave – Walled by our switch-ins: Ferrothorn and Giratina.
    • SubCM – Ferrothorn walls it. It won’t last long while the Sandstorm is brewing.
    • ChestoRest – Who even uses this anymore? Ferrothorn.

    Kyurem-W
    • Choice Specs – Ho-Oh to scout the move and then we switch to Ferrothorn / Arceus-Water
    • Choice-less – This is harder to beat since Ice Beam + Draco Meteor KOs Ho-Oh. Arceus-Water sets up on it.
    • Choice Scarf – Ho-Oh walls everything bar Stone Edge.

    Latias
    • Offensive Pivot – Free Spikes!
    • Stallbreaker – Are you kidding me? What kind of Stallbreaker is this? Excadrill set-up!
    • All-Out Special Attacker – Ho-Oh walls everything besides Thunder/Surf. If it lacks Hidden Power Fire, Ferrothorn walls it. Excadrill revenges.

    Latios
    • Calm Mind – Ho-Oh can phaze it. Ferrothorn walls it.
    • All-Out Special Attacker – This is very difficult to handle. We have to lure out its Draco Meteor and then Arceus-Water will wall it. Arceus-Water walls it regardless if it lacks Grass Knot.
    • Special Dragon Dance – LOL. Excadrill out speeds.

    Mewtwo
    • Psycho Killer – In sandstorm, it will die quickly. Ho-Oh can scout its move. We pivot to Excadrill to absorb the Psystrike and then kill it.
    • Bulky Attacker – Bulky Attacker a.k.a Weak Attacker.
    • Choice Scarf – Who uses this? Trick cripples something.

    Palkia
    • Choice Scarf – Ferrothorn walls ¾ of its moves. Arceus-Water and Ho-Oh can take the obvious Fire Blast. Stop using this set!
    • Specially Based Mix – It isn’t really mixed. Arceus-Water walls it.
    • Choice Specs – Arceus-Water walls it. Ho-Oh can take anything except Hydro Pump.
    • Blissey Boxer – Ho-Oh walls it. Arceus walls it.
    • Physically Based Mix – Now we are talking! Ferrothorn walls it if it does not have Fire Blast. Arceus walls it if it doesn’t have thunder.

    Rayquaza
    • Dragon Dance – Paralyze it with Ferrothorn if it tries to set up. Arceus can kill it if it has not set up. Hippowdon can phaze it.
    • Mixed Attacker – Ho-Oh walls it. Ho-Oh can even take an Outrage and then Regenerator and Ferrothorn trolls it.
    • Mixed Dancer – Ferrothorn walls it if it lacks Fire Blast. Arceus can revenge it it has not set up. Hippowdon phazes if it is locked into Outrage.
    • Swords Dance – Why even use this thing? Arceus out speeds and KOs it.
    • Choice Scarf – Ferrothorn walls ¾ of its moves. Ho-Oh can take a Draco Meteor or Outrage and then Regenerator trolls.
    • Choice Band – Prediction. Ferrothorn on Outrage. Arceus-Water on V-create.

    Tier 2

    Arceus-Dark
    • Calm Mind – Ho-Oh can tank and kill it. If weakened, Excadrill can finish it as well. Ferrothorn can paralyze and seed it, but note that Arceus-Dark tends to have Refresh though.

    Arceus-Dragon
    • Swords Dance – Hippowdon can tank its hits and phaze it, weakening it over time. Excadrill can revenge kill. Ferrothorn can paralyze and seed it.
    • Calm Mind – Meet thy Ho-Oh and Ferrothorn. Ho-Oh can tank can kill it before it boosts too much, and Ferrothorn can paralyze and seed it. If weakened, Excadrill can finish it as well.

    Arceus-Electric
    • Calm Mind – STAB resisted by Hippowdon, Excadrill, Ferrothorn and Giratina. Ice Beam still resisted by Ferrothorn. Besides, Excadrill can kill it with a STAB Earthquake in a sandstorm.

    Arceus-Steel
    • Calm Mind – Both Ho-Oh and Excadrill can kill it with Sacred Fire and Earthquake respectively.
    • Swords Dance – Hippowdon and Excadrill takes care of this version with Earthquake.

    Blaziken
    • Swords Dance – Giratina can switch into its favourite Hi Jump Kick and give it a Dragon Tail.

    Deoxys-A
    • Life Orb – If used properly, this can pose a headache. Ho-Oh can sponge some of its special attacks such as Psycho-Boost though, but will get hurt by Extremespeed. Ferrothorn also can be a special sponge, but beware of superpower. Excadrill also can revenge kill if anything goes wrong.
    • Focus Sash Attacker – Since sand and rocks breaks the sash, just use Ho-Oh / Ferrothorn to resist its attacks and kill it. Excadrill is also feasible.

    Excadrill
    • Bulky – Giratina can burn and cripple it, Hippowdon can Earthquake it, Ho-Oh can incinerate it.
    • Offensive – Switch to Hippowdon to tank and kill it. Our own Excadrill can also KO it since it has an Air Balloon. If it does not have Rock Slide, Ho-Oh can take it on.

    Garchomp
    • Choice Scarf – Hippowdon can sponge its attacks. Ferrothorn can also switch into its outrage and seed it. Arceus-Water OHKOs with Ice Beam.
    • Swords Dance – Arceus-Water can Ice Beam it.
    • Choice Band – Same as Choice Scarf
    • Substitute + Swords Dance – Arceus-Water can Ice Beam this one as well.
    • Sand Veil – Go win a lottery.

    Genesect
    • Specially Based Choice Scarf – Say hi to ThanksGiving (Ho-Oh).
    • Physically Based Choice Scarf – Ho-Oh also tanks this unless it decides to explode.
    • Specially Based Attacker – Ho-Oh will still kill it.
    • Physically Based Attacker – Hippo can wall it and quake it to death; Ho-Oh can handle it bar explosion.
    • Choice Band – Same as physically based Choice Scarf.

    Giratina-O
    • Mixed Attacker – Ferro can wall this and seed it to death, bar Hidden Power Fire. Ho-Oh Brave Birds it. Arceus-Water can Ice Beam it.
    • Calm Mind – No recovery + sub? Ho-Oh Brave Birds this thing.
    • Sleeping Beauty (Mono-Attacker) – Ferro’s leech seed. Ho-Oh and Arceus-Water can Brave Bird and Ice Beam this thing as well.
    • Substitute Shuffler – This guy is a big pain. Try to whirlwind / Brave Bird it with Ho-Oh or Ice Beaming this thing with Arceus.

    Kabutops
    • Cleaner – Hippowdon spoils the weather, and Giratina can switch in to burn / phaze it. If Hippowdon is dead after it changes the weather, Excadrill can revenge kill.
    • Choice Band – LOL.

    Kingdra
    • Mixed Attacker – This is the hardest to deal with, though Hippowdon can spoil the weather before running to Ferrothorn, it is still likely to put a dent in the team
    • Dragon Dance – Use Hippo to spoil the weather before using Ferrothorn to wall and seed it.
    • Choice Specs – Hippowdon can spoil the weather before fleeing. Ferrothorn can then wall it and seed it.

    Kyurem-B
    • Mixed – Excadrill can revenge.
    • Mixed Hone Claws – Excadrill can revenge.
    • Choice Band – Hippowdon can take one hit and slack off the damage. Prone to revenge kill in sand by Excadrill.
    • Choice Scarf – Hippowdon can wall it as well. Ferrothorn may also be used to place Leech Seed and Spikes.

    Mamoswine
    • Physical Attacker – Ferrothorn can help to weaken it if it does not know Superpower. Excadrill can revenge kill with Iron Head.

    Reshiram
    • Choice Specs – Ho-Oh can wall it, Giratina can as well provided it doesn’t choose a dragon type move. Ferrothorn can wall as long as Blue Flare/ Flamethrower are not used.
    • Choice Scarf – Same as Specs, unless Reshiram decides to use Stone Edge.
    • Substitute – Another headache. Hopefully it does not run Stone Edge for Ho-Oh or at least one poke is likely to die.
    • Flame Charge – Summon Hippowdon to bring forth sand to progressively weaken it, since it can resist a flame charge. Later on, take out Ho-Oh to tank its Blue Flare and Brave Bird it. Excadrill can revenge kill provided Reshiram does not reach +2.
    • Sunny Day – Ho-Oh can handle it if Reshiram does not know Stone Edge.

    Salamence
    • Choice Scarf – Hippowdon can tank/ phaze it. Alternatively, Arceus-Water can Ice Beam it if ScarfMence has not gained any moxie boosts. Excadrill can revenge kill as well. Ferrothorn can paralyze and effectively cripple it.
    • Dragon Dance – This one is tricky. Arceus-Water can Ice Beam it before it gets too powerful. Ferrothorn can help by crippling it with a Thunder Wave, letting Ho-Oh get a shot in at Salamence later in the game as well. Hippowdon can wall and phaze it out so weaken it progressively with rocks on the field.

    Shaymin-S
    • SubSeed – I hate this guy. Ho-Oh needs to whirlwind/Brave Bird it to submission. Its 60% flinch is a real piss-off.
    • Choice Scarf – Ho-Oh can tank and Brave Bird it.
    • Special Sweeper – Same as Choice Scarf.
    • Choice Specs – Same as Choice Scarf.

    Terrakion
    • Choice Scarf – Hippowdon walls it and kills it with Earthquake. Giratina walls it too!
    • Double Dancer – Hippowdon still kills it.
    • Choice Band – Hippowdon STILL kills it. Giratina on Close Combat. Ferrothorn on Stone Edge.
    • Substitute + Swords Dance – Hippowdon never fails.

    Tyranitar
    • Tank – Excadrill can Earthquake it; Arceus-Water can use Judgment.
    • Choice Band – Hippowdon walls and kills it.

    Zekrom
    • Mixed – Excadrill in sand can revenge kill it. Nonetheless, it is likely to get one kill unless it is completely predicted.
    • Choice Band – Hippowdon / Ferrothorn can switch into Bolt Strike/ Outrage and kill it. Note: Ferrothorn cannot take banded Bolt Strikes since it is specially defensive.
    • Choice Scarf – Same as for Choice Band. For scarf, Ferrothorn can also wall and Spikes / Leech Seed.
    • Substitute + Hone Claws – Hippowdon can phaze / kill it.

    Tier 3

    Arceus-Fire
    • Calm Mind – Ho-Oh walls it. Arceus-Water can win the Calm Mind war due to natural type advantage. Giratina walls it. Excadrill can revenge. It is Stealth Rock weak. Enough said.

    Arceus-Grass
    • Calm Mind – Free Spikes! Ho-Oh walls it.

    Arceus-Ice
    • Calm Mind – Ho-Oh walls this as well. It has the same problems as Arceus-Fire.

    Arceus-Psychic
    • Calm Mind – Ho-Oh can burn phaze it.

    Arceus-Rock
    • Mono-Attacker – Arceus-Water wins the Calm Mind war. Ferrothorn can hammer non-Will-o-wisp variants. Hippowdon can phaze it.
    • Offensive Calm Mind – Same. I hope it lacks Fire Blast.
    • Swords Dance – Hippowdon walls this forever.

    Arceus-Water
    • Swords Dance – Ferrothorn can Power Whip and Thunder Wave it. Giratina can burn it. Excadrill can revenge.
    • Offensive Calm Mind – Giratina walls it. Excadrill can revenge.
    • Defensive Calm Mind – Ferrothorn can kill it. Giratina walls it and pressure stalls.

    Cloyster
    • Shell Smash – Ferrothorn can take a hit and KO it / Thunderwave. Excadrill can revenge. It will get zero chances to set up.

    Heatran
    • Choice Scarf – LOL.

    Giratina
    • Boosting Tank – Ho-Oh can phaze it if it gets out of hands. Excadrill can boost alongside it. Ferrothorn gets some free spikes in conjunction with leech seed.
    • Chesto Rest – Ho-Oh. Sandstorm. Spikes, Leech Seed, Stealth Rock.

    Gorebyss
    • Smash Pass – No spore? A poor man’s Smeargle!

    Jirachi
    • Choice Scarf – Ferrothorn walls it. Arceues walls it. Ho-Oh walls it. Hippowdon walls it. Giratina walls it. Excadrill walls it.

    Landorus
    • Swords Dance – Arceus kills it. Excadrill can setup on it.
    • Choice Scarf – Hippowdon.

    Landorus-T
    • SubSD – Hippowdon can phaze it. Arceus kills it. Excadrill can revenge kill it.
    • Double Dancer – Trying to copy Terrakion/Groudon? Hippowdon walls it.
    • Choice Band – Nice….Choice locked ground attack. OK! Excadrill setup!

    Lugia
    • Offensive Calm Mind – Free Spikes and Leech Seed.

    Magnezone
    • SubCharge – Ho-Oh can kill it. Ferrothorn will win if it Leech Seeds on the switch. 3 layers of spikes nomnomnom.
    • Choice Specs – Excadrill setup bait.
    • Dual Screens – OK.

    Manaphy
    • Calm Mind – Force it to rest. Switch to Hippowdon when it rests. Ferrothorn can seed it and wear it down with Power Whip. Giratina walls it.
    • Tail Glow – Ferrothorn kills it.

    Metagross
    • Choice Band – I have never seen you. I assume you are walled by the following Pokémon: Hippowdon, Ho-Oh, Arceus, Ferrothorn, Giratina, Excadrill.

    Scizor
    • Choice Band – You will not be forgotten. Ho-Oh walls it.
    • Swords Dance – Better sweeper than Genesect. Ho-Oh walls it.
    • Specially Defensive – Ho-Oh.

    Thundurus
    • Prankster – Ferrothorn walls it. Excadrill can revenge.
    • Nasty Plot – Excadrill can revenge. It can’t set up.

    Tornadus-T
    • All-Out Attacker – Ho-Oh walls it.
    • Choice Specs – Ho-Oh walls it. Good lucky spamming inaccurate Hurricanes. Giratina walls it as well.

    Venusaur
    • Special Growth – Ho-Oh and Giratina walls it. Hippowdon takes away sun.
    • Mixed Growth – See Special Growth.

    Tier 4

    Abomasnow
    • Tank – Incinerated beyond recognition by Ho-Oh, Iron Headed by Excadrill

    Arceus-Bug
    • Calm Mind – Incinerated by Ho-Oh.
    • Swords Dance – Incinerated by Ho-Oh unless it uses Stone Edge. Giratina and Hippowdon wall it.

    Arceus-Flying
    • Calm Mind – Likes Stealth Rock. Tanked by Ho-Oh and Giratina. Shot down from the sky by Waterceus using Ice Beam.

    Arceus-Poison
    • Calm Mind – Earthquaked by Excadrill. The obvious members wall it.

    Bisharp
    • Swords Dance – Hippowdon tanks and Earthquakes it. Ho-Oh cooks it.

    Bronzong
    • Trickroom – Ho-Oh cooks it.
    • Choice Band – Get cooked by Ho-Oh.

    Dugtrio
    • Substitute + Hone Claws – Be careful of this one trapping and killing stuff like Excadrill (I am only kidding). Best to put rocks to ensure a broken sash.

    Ferrothorn
    • Choice Band – Get cooked by ThanksGiving.

    Gengar
    • Choice Scarf – Beware of Trick. Let it try to steal a Splash Plate from Arceus. Alternatively, let Excadrill Iron Head it.

    Gyarados
    • Taunt Support – Giratina can Dragon Tail it non-stop. Combined with rocks on the field, it’s just a matter of time before it dies.
    • Choice Band – Get burned by Giratina. Ferrothorn can leech seed and paralyze it.

    Heracross
    • Choice Scarf – Bonjour Hippowdon / Ho-Oh.
    • Choice Band – Bonjour Hippowdon / Ho-Oh.

    Hydreigon
    • Choice Scarf – Ho-Oh & Arceus-Water can tank and kill it.

    Jynx
    • Nasty Plot – Ho-Oh cooks it for lunch. Excadrill can give it an Iron Head.

    Ludicolo
    • Rain Sweeper – Hippowdon spoils its rain and switches, Giratina can wall it and phaze it. Ferrothorn paralyzes it.

    Omastar
    • Shell Smash – Hippowdon spoils its rain and switches, Giratina can wall it and phaze it. Ferrothorn paralyzes / Whips it.

    Qwilfish
    • Support – Plant as many toxic spikes as you like.
    • Swords Dance – Hippowdon and Excadrill can earthquake it.

    Shiftry
    • Special Sweeper – Go Giga Drain le Ho-Oh.

    Thundurus-T
    • Choice Scarf – Go zap an Excadrill.
    • Life Orb – Tanked by Ferrothorn and paralyzed in turn. Excadrill revenges. Giratina walls it.
    • Agility – Who uses this? Excadrill still wins anyway. Giratina also can tank it.

    Tornadus
    • Tailwind – May be a pain that forces Excadrill’s sweep to be delayed. Otherwise, a threat towards a team who has 5/6 slow pokes, eh?

    Victini
    • Choice Scarf – LOL.
    • Choice Band – LOL.
    • Trickroom – LOL.

    Tier 5

    Lucario
    • Swords Dance – Analysis got deleted iirc. You must be bad.

    Shedinja
    • Wall – Hippowdon switch in. Shedinja lost 100% of its Health.
    • Swords Dance – Same.

    Defensive Threats

    Tier 1

    Arceus-Ghost
    • Calm Mind – Ho-Oh can switch into it and always beat it. Burn + Sandstorm damage will wear it down.
    • Support – Ho-Oh can switch into it and cripple it with a burn.

    Arceus-Grass
    • Calm Mind – Ho-Oh walls this. It is the weakest Calm Mind Arceus and the easiest to beat.
    • Support – Ho-Oh can take everything and so can Giratina. Damn you Kebabe and your Stone Edge!

    Arceus-Steel
    • Calm Mind – Ho-Oh walls it and can hurt it twice as much as it can other Calm Mind Arcei
    • Support – Ho-Oh fears nothing other than Stone Edge.

    Blissey
    • Support – This is perfect spikes bait. Ho-Oh can hurt it badly. Arceus-Water can set up on it if we choose to use Refresh.

    Chansey
    • Support – We do not have a Kyogre. See Blissey. Lack of leftovers makes it easier to handle.

    Dialga
    • Defensive – Ho-Oh can burn it. Arceus can wear it down with repeated Ice Beams.

    Ferrothorn
    • Support – Ho-Oh extinguishes this before it can do anything. It will often try to come in on Arceus-Water, providing an opportunity for Ho-Oh to double switch in.

    Forretress
    • Specially Defensive – Ho-Oh. This is annoying because, unlike Excadrill, it can set up hazards on Giratina.

    Giratina
    • Great Wall – Free Spikes + Leech Seed. With hazards down, we can keep phasing it until it dies.
    • Specially Defensive – Same as above.

    Giratina-O
    • Mixed Attacker – Ho-Oh walls it unless it decides to use Outrage for some reason. Even then, Regenerator trolls Outrage and we can switch right to Ferrothorn.
    • RestTalk Shuffler – It can’t hurt Excadrill significantly. +2 Iron Heads should be able to get past it with some Flinchax.

    Groudon
    • Support – Walled by Hippowdon. I can repeatedly send in Hippowdon vs. Groudon. Arceus-Water can weaken it. Ferrothorn can set up spikes on those without access to Fire Punch.

    Kyogre
    • [Bulky] Choice Scarf Kyogre – We treat it like the same Choice Scarf Kyogre.
    • Mono-Attacker Kyogre – Giratina walls it. Ferrothorn can set up spikes on it. Scald burns are annoying.

    Latias
    • Offensive Pivot – Why is an Offensive Pivot in a defensive list? Anyway, it is free spikes for us.
    • Stallbreaker – Yeah right. You aint no Stallbreaker.
    • Specially Defensive – Ho-Oh walls it. Excadrill can spin on it.
    • Support – What is this?

    Lugia
    • Great Wall – We have two steel types that can threaten it with spikes and Rapid Spin. Leech Seed and Thunder Wave can also be thrown into the mix.
    • SubRoost – Save as above minus Thunder Wave and Leech Seed.
    • Specially Defensive – Whatever.
    • RestTalk Shuffler – Excadrill is faster in Sandstorm and this enable it to spin hazards away before Lugia moves.
    • Defensive Calm Mind – Leech Seed and the above.

    Tier 2

    Arceus
    • Wallceus (Physical Wall) – This might be a pain. Nonetheless, Ho-Oh can burn and phaze it.

    Arceus-Fighting
    • Utility Counter – Tell it to eat a Brave Bird from Ho-Oh. This is an irritant nonetheless since it involves Ho-Oh getting poisoned.

    Arceus-Ground
    • Support – This could be a pain. Still, Giratina can burn it while Arceus-Water can hurt it with Judgment.

    Arceus-Poison
    • Support – No Toxic? Go my Ho-Oh.

    Arceus-Rock
    • Mono-Attacker – Excadrill comes in on a rock-type judgment and Earthquakes it. Alternatively, Arceus-Water can judge it, albeit the Spec D boost from sandstorm will be difficult to break past.

    Excadrill
    • Bulky – You like our Sand Rush Excadrill/ Hippowdon?

    Gliscor
    • Substitute – That’s why we have an Excadrill that holds a Balloon

    Heatran
    • Stallbreaker - Arceus-Water can pass down its divine Judgment on it. Even though Excadrill can kill it, remember that you can only switch into taunt.

    Ho-Oh
    • Tank – Stealth Rock + Shuffling. Additionally, Arceus-Water can hit it super effectively in Sandstorm.
    • Physically Defensive – Same.

    Jirachi
    • Wish Support – Free Spikes. Hippowdon, Ho-Oh and Excadrill can hit it super effectively. Giratina can burn it.

    Palkia
    • Choice Scarf – Predict around its moves and act accordingly. (Eg. Ho-Oh to stomach Fire Blasts, Giratina/ Ferrothorn to tank Hydro Pump)

    Skarmory
    • Support – Get cooked by my Ho-Oh

    Tentacruel
    • Support – This one might be irritating. Try to Earthquake / phaze it.

    Tyranitar
    • Tank – Arceus-Water can hits it hard; Earthquake from Hippowdon or Excadrill (preferably Excadrill).
    • Choice Band - Hippowdon walls and kills it.

    Tier 3

    Arceus-Dark
    • Support – Ho-Oh takes care of this. Excadrill can kill weakened ones without getting burned.

    Arceus-Psychic
    • Utility Counter – This might be a problem though, but who uses this anyway? Nonetheless, Ferrothorn can simply Thunder Wave and seed it, clearing the path for Psyceus to be beaten to death by Ho-Oh / Excadrill.

    Arceus-Water
    • Defensive Calm Mind – You like a Ferrothorn?
    • Sun Support – This is a sand team. Thunder Wave is irritating though.

    Bronzong
    • Tank – Get burned by my Ho-Oh.

    Cresselia
    • Lunar Dance + Dual Screens – Go on. Excadrill will spin and Swords Dance while you are at it.
    • Wall – I heard you tank physical hits like a champ. Good! Can you prevent setup?

    Hippowdon
    • Physical Wall – Gets burned by Giratina. Arceus-Water can judge/Ice beam it.

    Landorus-T
    • Physically Defensive – Arceus used Ice Beam! It’s super effective! The foe Landorous-T lost 100% of its health!

    Metagross
    • Choice Band – Hippowdon walls and kills this thing. Excadrill and Ho-Oh can be used as well.

    Mewtwo
    • StallTwo – Ho-Oh can burn it to death. May waste a considerable amount of time though.

    Scizor
    • Specially Defensive – That’s a great help against Ho-Oh.

    Xatu
    • Dual Screens – Go ahead. I’ll set up my Excadrill and spin.

    Tier 4

    Deoxys-D
    • Agility + Taunt – Walled by Ferrothorn and Excadrill.
    • Utility Wall – Inferior Lugia. Excadrill can spin on this.

    Gastrodon
    • Tank – I don’t have a GodDamn Kyogre!

    Gyarados
    • Taunt Support – Sorry, Trickroom.

    Jumpluff
    • Support – What is this?
    • SubSeed – Giratina takes the sleep and then Ferrothorn walls it.

    Ludicolo
    • SubSeed – 3 layers of spikes eminent. Ho-Oh or Giratina can phaze it afterwards.

    Whimsicott
    • SubSeed – Ferrothorn walls it. Ho-Oh and Ferrothorn can keep switching around if it does not have Stun Spore.

    Tier 5

    Shedinja
    • Wall – Oh, right. As I said earlier, Hippowdon kills it.
    • Swords Dance – Same.

    Miscellaneous Threats

    Deoxys
    • Offensive Dual Screens – Ok. Go ahead.

    Deoxys-S
    • Suicide Lead – This is one of the biggest threats to the teams. If they have both Latios and a Spinblocker, I will be in for an uphill battle.
    • Dual Screens – I don’t care.
    • Choice Scarf – A bit better than the suicide lead since it does not set up Stealth Rock.

    Ditto
    • Imposter – Useless vs. my team. It can, however, match Arceus-Water…..I am only kidding.

    Froslass
    • Spikes – Inferior Deoxys-Speed.

    Latios
    • Dual Screens – Go ahead. I love to see you die without doing anything.

    Smeargle
    • Smash Pass – In sandstorm, Excadrill out speeds +2 Smeargle and kills it. It is important to always keep Sandstorm up.
    • Lv 1 FEAR – Giratina walls it. Sandstorm breaks its sash.

    Wobbuffet
    • OH NO, IT'S WOBBA! – This could be a problem for their team in the form of: 3 Spikes, Paralysis, Burn, FlinchHax.
  3. bygbyrd

    bygbyrd

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2011
    Messages:
    45
    There are a few things I want to say about this RMT but I will start by saying great job. You guys did an excellent job at creating a somewhat unique sand team that I have a hard time categorizing. Having a team with essentially three offensive pokes and three defensive ones and being incredibly resilient and powerfull is often a teambuilder's dream. You created something great.

    Really there aren't any team member changes I could think of that would make this team more solid. The team a solid defensive core backed by bulky yet powerful pokes. I do, however, have to inquire about Ferrothorn's moveset. I don't see how Thunderwave is very usefull to a team with a defensive nature. Yes T-wave annoys many of Ferrothorn's
    switch-ins, but making a Mewtwo slower, for example, might be a waste of a turn when Excadrill outspeeds in sand anyway. I suggest running protect. While I agree not everyone should just slap on protect, it becomes a lot more valuable in sand, where you can tack on another turn of sand and potential leech seed for free. This can sometimes mean the difference between life and death in the world of Pokemon.

    I also would recommend Tina's double phazer set, putting Roar over WoW. While burning a psychical attacker is nice, Sleep Talk plus WoW's accuracy means there can be a lot of luck involved in getting off a burn. Roar would leave you able to phaze away Ho-oh behind a sub. I know you have Hippo for this, but taking some pressure off of Hippo could be crucial in winning a weather war.

    I know this team was tested thoroughly and it shows, because that's all I could muster up for a rate. Again great job !

    PS:
    That is why I use dragon pulse
  4. Hack

    Hack formerly Hack He Must
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2012
    Messages:
    909
    Thanks for the rate Bygbyrd!

    About Thunder wave, there is a big reason why it is a must on my Ferrothorn. Rayquaza. Now, you might notice that my team is a bit scared of it. True. But Rayquaza can only set up dragon dances against Ferrothorn, who will be forced out by its entrance, assuming it can come in safely. Therefor, it is assumable that my opponent will try to switch in his Rayquaza on Ferrothorn, so I can thunder wave the predicted switch in, insuring myself from a dd quaza sweep. Now, I have never actually needed to use this tactic because I have been very vary when facing it in the team preview. I still think it is nice to just no let a threatening sweeper just clamp in for free and set up. It is also useful against Ho-oh switch ins, especially flame charge variants.

    Really, a lot of things that are switching in on Ferrothorn don't like being paralyzed much.

    Double phazer set actually sounds like a very good idea, since I hate wow and Giratina is not my check to Arceus e-killer anyway.
  5. Kebabe

    Kebabe
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2012
    Messages:
    361
    First of all a very excellent team, however I will do my best to find some weaknesses.

    The team seem like its having a weakness on the physical side, a lot of pressure will be hard to handle,

    Starting of we have fully offensive Ho-Oh who after SR and one layer of spikes has a chance of 2HKO Hippowdon. Even if you think you can handle Ho-Oh it might be hard to check E-killer after that pressure. To solve this problem I suggest that you're using the Great Wall set for Giratina, preferably with double phazing as it helps you with sub Ho-Oh and you should never rely on a 75% move anyways. To still keep Kyogre at bay I suggest you use Grass Knot over calm mind or judgement on Arceus.

    If stealth rock is up Darkrai will be a problem, as its faster then your whole team and even leftovers variants will OHKO Ho-Oh after SR and sandstorm. Therefore I suggest a spread of: 248 HP / 112 Atk / 132 SDef / 16 and a careful nature on Ho-Oh.

    Sets:
    Giratina:
    Show Hide
    [​IMG]
    Giratina @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 16 Spd
    Impish Nature
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Dragon Tail
    - Roar/ Will o Wisp


    Arceus:
    Show Hide
    [​IMG]
    Arceus-Water @ Splash Plate
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 252 HP / 80 SDef / 176 Spd
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Grass Knot
    - Recover
    - Ice Beam/Refresh
    Judgement/Calm Mind


    Ho-Oh:
    Show Hide
    [​IMG]
    Ho-Oh @ Leftovers
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 248 HP / 16 Spd / 132 SDef / 112 Atk
    Careful Nature
    - Brave Bird
    - Roost
    - Sacred Fire
    - Substitute
  6. Hack

    Hack formerly Hack He Must
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2012
    Messages:
    909
    I drop significant walling of SpecsOgre by changing Giratina. Ho-oh can be a problem when paired with e-killer, but it will wear itself down by brave birds, lo recoil and SR. And getting up spikes+SR while keeping SR away from your own Ho-oh against this team is hard. Water-Arceus is fast an has a super effective move. Also, Ho-oh generally wants to come in on Ferrothorn, so I can usually catch it with a leech seed on the switch and restore Hippowdon's health. If Hippowdon isn't in shape to take on E-killer, it doesn't matter that much since it can't set up on anything on my team really. And if it does it will take damage from an attack first, or get leech seeded by Ferrothorn so Exca can at least do some damage and bring it down with him.

    If Darkrai is used as a lead SR won't be up so Ho-oh can wall it. As a late-game sweeper it can probably do some damage but I wouldn't rely on Ho-oh in the late-game because it has probably taken some damage anyways, Excadrill can revenge kill in that case. Roar in Giratina is under serious consideration, though.
  7. superstar

    superstar

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2011
    Messages:
    318
    A really great team you've got here! Arceus-Water is genius.

    I'm interested to here how you deal with the common rain stall archetype of Chansey/Ogre/Excadrill, since iirc Excadrill can beat SDef Giratina, so you won't be keeping hazards up (and Wish keeps Excadrill healthy). I guess Refresh on Arceus is important for that reason

    You should really leave Will-O-Wisp on Tina, since Arceus with a boosting (LO or Silk Scarf) item can 2HKO the Hippo with Extremespeed. If you are up against an offensive team and roar out their Kyogre/Palkia or something else that forces you out, you are in a lot of trouble the next time Arceus can come in and boost, since it will 2HKO your whole team. If you go double phazing, go for the physically defensive variant.

    That's all I've got -- tough to improve such a great team. Everything from the Balloon or Excadrill to Ferrothorn's moveset is very well thought out. Luvdisc'd
  8. Bossness

    Bossness

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2011
    Messages:
    439
    I am glad that you like my idea of Arceus-Water. As for Chansey, Ogre, Excadrill, notice that they are all prone to spikes and none of them appreciate Leech Seed, Spikes or Power Whip. Our own Excadrill can be used to beat their Excadrill; switch to Giratina to block rapid spin / swords dance from opposing Excadrill. and then switch to your own Excadrill. As we are talking about stall, it means that they will have Mold Breaker Excadrill not Sand Rush. Add to this that their Excadrill run very low speed EVs and you can see why it is not a problem.

    You can not assume that Extremekiller is setting up without any drawbacks. After Leech Seed(since it can only set up on Ferrothorn), Giratina is switched in to absorb the Brick Break. Hippowdon is switch in the turn after that to take the Shadow Claw. Hippowdon uses Slack Off to regain health from one ExtremeSpeed and then phazes it. By that point, Arceus can no longer set up. In practice, Arceus has never been able to sweep this team; actually it did ONCE when it got 3 consecutive crits on Ferrothorn, Hippowdon and Giratina.

    I actually DO use Roar Giratina. The reason we have Will-o-wisp is not to use it as a check to Extremekiller but to let some things take passive damage.
  9. gookie

    gookie Adominnustrata
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2010
    Messages:
    2,774
    this team is overall very solid, despite having to tread around many threats due the nature of being fairly reliant on ho-oh + hippowdon to cover a lot of mons.

    a well-played mewtwo, plus physical overrun strategies like SD arceus + groudon and/or rayquaza can overwhelm hippo (or in rayquaza's case lure it with draco meteor or even fire blast) can be troublesome. excadrill's lack of Life Orb means it will fail to safely revenge mewtwo after SR, darkrai from full HP, OHKO 252 hp arceus at +2 and a bunch of other things, although i do realise its air balloon is instrumental in dealing with gliscor.

    that being said, it is very hard to change much on this team without harming the overall composition. there are a few things you can try, however.

    physically defensive ho-oh alleviates the huge pressure placed on hippowdon, it can actually take on all variants of rayquaza at least once, assuming no stealth rock; attempt to burn ekiller; take one hit from +1 mewtwo, etc.

    i also like the suggestion of double phaze on giratina, it halves the risk of having hazards being set up on it when resting, an important thing to consider, as excadrill's lack of resilience might be a hindrance when playing in a long match.

    if you're finding not much time to use calm mind on arceus, consider toxic in that slot for latias / reshiram / ho-oh that water arceus normally switches into.

    other than that i don't have much to suggest. solid team, great job.
  10. Hack

    Hack formerly Hack He Must
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2012
    Messages:
    909
    Keeping Stealth Rock away is key to using physically defensive Ho-oh. If that can be the case most of the time, then it could be worth a shot. However, it is very hard to do so, and even if Excadrill in the sand is undoubtly the only spinner that can break almost all spinblockers by force, I can't guarntee that SR will be spun away so Ho-oh can perform its job.

    One has to not forget that Mewtwo can be phazed by none other than Giratina once, and left in Exca range after a dragon tail+sand+SR. That being said groudon+e-killer is a bigger threat. The key here is to not let e-killers set up be that easy. Hazards+sand will already bring down its HP by 31.25 % in one turn, assuming one layer spikes and SR. If it comes in on to set up Ferrothorn it will be seeded, and its sweep will be shot because +2 brick break doesn't OHKO (I'll do calcs later, but I'm pretty sure). The key is to not use Hippowdon excessevly when checking physical attacker. Instead, look for their best time to come on and cripple them with the pokemon you use, like thunder wave for Rayquaza or a leech seed for Ho-oh. Note that most pokemon on my team are hard to set up on. Ferrothorn is usually the main target, and with proper prediction, I can stop most sweep attempts.

    Thanks for the rate Poppy!
  11. Donkey

    Donkey

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2011
    Messages:
    529
    This is a very nice team. I don't really have any suggestions besides what Poppy offered, Physically defensive Ho-oh helps you with Mewtwo which can otherwise break through Giratina-A after some hazard damage and tear through your team if sand isn't up. Even with the possibility of SR being up, physically defensive Ho-oh is definitely worth it, you will find plenty of occasions to recover.

    I'd suggest Roar>Dragon Tail on Giratina-A as well if you don't want to go dual phasing. Pokes with sub could end up doing a lot of damage if you rely on Gira to phase them (ie sub Kyogre, sub Mewtwo).

    That's it, cool team, this is the first time I've seen Arceus-Water used properly.
  12. Hack

    Hack formerly Hack He Must
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2012
    Messages:
    909
    Thanks a lot for the rate Donkey! It means a lot coming from you since I learned how to play sand-stall in Ubers with your old team.

    As for the changes, I will test physically defensive Ho-oh and roar will probably be implemented on Giratina instead of Will o wisp. I don't like relying on that move too much.
  13. Furai

    Furai wellfare
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    May 4, 2010
    Messages:
    2,824
    I'm here with my rate! :) So yeah, this obviously is a great team; glad to see Arceus-Water showcased.

    I agree with everything said on the posts above me. Physically defensive Ho-oh would help you remove some pressure off Hippowdown, and also helps you vs Mewtwo, which can be a threat. I am not completely sure about the double phazing Giratina thing, you really want the burn to cripple Extreme Killer Arceus. Absolutely go with Roar > Dragon Tail, either way, so Ho-oh won't be able to put a lot of pressure on your team.

    When I laddered I battled your team, and I really want to see Toxic somewhere over here. Your team struggles against offensive Latias and Latios; Ho-oh won't be able to tank Draco Meteors after Stealth Rock, and then your entire team is shut down. Arceus-Water takes a ton from Draco Meteor as well, whereas they have Grass Knot too. Toxic and the sand damage will help you wear opponents real fast. The question is, where to put it. There are many options for that, honestly; you can go on Arceus-Water--but then you lose to last Pokemon Calm Mind Kyogre, you could go on Ho-oh--but your team really appreciates Whirlwind, you could go on Ferrothorn, but paralyze support is just as nice. If I were you, I'd put it on Hippowdown, over Whirlwind. Lati@s often switch into Hippowdown on a predicted Earthquake, and that is your shot to catch them off guard and poison them, which almost every uber hate. If they have Refresh, Ho-oh handles them just fine.

    Solid team, well done; best of luck.
  14. Hack

    Hack formerly Hack He Must
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2012
    Messages:
    909
    Thanks for the Furai! Offensive Lati@s are a pain for this team. Offensive Latios is one of the hardest things to wall in the entire metagame IMO. Excadrill will do a good chuck with Iron Head hopefully. And they are thankfully also quite rare. Toxic over whirlwind on Hippowdon still hampers E-killer and so, but it will get past me and I will also lose me the weather war. Physically defensive Ho-oh is not a consistent check to E-killer, so losing whirlwind on Hippowdon can be problematic.

    It really feels to me that the scenario where "no team is perfect" adapts here as well (of course) because if I change something, then some other threat becomes greater. Physically defensive Ho-oh is probably something I could try (and roar on Gira) but it has some problems. First off, it won't do nearly as much as I like to threats. Ho-oh wins weather wars by luring in Groudon, and the lack of attack investment will hamper it a bit. Even though this is a semi-stall team, I'd like to keep momentum and hit back. If I get physically overloaded then I must sack stuff in order to keep Hippo alive.
  15. mrfelco

    mrfelco

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2012
    Messages:
    7
    this is a very well buit team that really shows what sandstorm is capable of in the uber tier. i have been playing with it for a while and have been fairly successful with it (though an extreme killer arceus once landed a crit on hippowdown and swept my team). however, i have made one change to it that i think improved the team. i think arceus-water should be replaced with arceus-rock. although arceus water offers a resistance to ice type attacks, arceus-rock's 50% special defense boost in sandstorm makes up for it. also, it doesn't have to lose HP to sandstorm every turn which can be an issue for arceus-water as it does not have lefties. although this does lower the teams protection against kyogre, i find that giratina and ferrothorn are able to wall kyogre well already, especially if hazards are up to lower the power of its water spout. also, arceus-rock is able to take on many other special attackers, incase ferrothorn, ho-oh or giratina are weakened.

    i chose the mono-attacking set, investing the leftover EVs from its speed into physical defense instead of special defense, as i found the special defense boost from sandstorm and potential calm minds was already enough :

    [​IMG]
    Rocky (Arceus-Rock) @ Stone Plate
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Calm Mind
    - Judgment
    - Recover
    - Refresh
  16. Hack

    Hack formerly Hack He Must
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2012
    Messages:
    909
    Thanks for the rate, but no, if you use water arceus correctly it is the most beneficial member of this team synergy-wise. Check the team building process; I have used rock arceus, albeit a more defensive one to check Rayquaza and Ho-oh. After changing to Arceus-Water I was practically undefeated on the ladder.

    I won't go back to using Arceus-Rock, thank you.
  17. Brave Bird spam

    Brave Bird spam

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2012
    Messages:
    54
    Lol


    I’ll start by saying that this is a really great team, I love the use of hippowdon and water arceus. Also glad to see ho-oh being used outside of sun. Nice fwg core too.


    Looking at your team, mixed rayquaza, especially lum variants, seem like the biggest threat to your team. I can’t think of a reliable way to handle it without completely ruining your synergy, but how do you usually deal with it? Do you go to arceus right away or bait an outrage with giratina and then bring in excadrill?
    Offensive calm mind latios with both hp fire and surf/psyshock is also an issue, but fortunately it rarely runs both. The best way I can think of to beat them is to use physical water arceus to dragon claw them, but then that would suck since it’s your only special attacker.
    Finally, since your team is reliant on ho-oh to wall many special attackers, I can see physically defensive giratina being a hassle since by spinblocking excadrill it can keep SR up and allow specially based powerhouses like mixed dialga and specs kyurem-w to steamroll through your team.(Though almost no team isn’t a tad bit weak to these two behemoths).
    Really solid+ original team though, definitely a luvdisc from me.
  18. Hack

    Hack formerly Hack He Must
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2012
    Messages:
    909
    Really, I'm not that weak to Kyurem-W. Teams who are will have to sack a Pokémon if Kyu-W leads. That is my definition of being weak to it as Stealth Rock makes it hard to switch in later.

    I have ice beam on Water-Ceus, and Mixquaza can't OHKO it at +1. DD Rayquaza is harder IMO because I don't want to overload Hippowdon with pressure. Mold breaker Excadrill is easily handed by, ironically, my own Exca. They will set up swords dance as I switch to Giratina, but then I can swtich out into my Excadrill on the EQ. With the balloon I take no damage and proceed to outspeed and kill it.

    Latios is THE new metagame threat. But it can be managed through revenge-killing. Thanks for the rate!
  19. Frog

    Frog

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2012
    Messages:
    94
    I think surf is better for bulkyish CM waterceus because it has 24 PP instead of 16.
  20. Bossness

    Bossness

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2011
    Messages:
    439
    Thanks for that. We might change it. Since PP stall was never an issue in the past, we did not think about it.
    But:
    0 SpA Splash Plate Arceus-Water Surf vs. 248 HP / 84 SpD Ho-Oh: 186-222 (44.81 - 53.49%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    0 SpA Splash Plate Arceus-Water Judgment (Water) vs. 248 HP / 84 SpD Ho-Oh: 198-234 (47.71 - 56.38%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock.

    See the difference?

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)